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[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

So, yes, the geth's Dyson Swarm would have absorbed all the energy from the Tikkun star. There would be light, but that's just illumination. There would be no solar energy carried in that light. Like expunging all the calcium from a glass of milk - you still have something in the glass, but all the nutriants are gone from it. The loss of solar energy from the Dyson Swarm's completeion would have killed all the plant life. Also, solar energy is what gives sunlight it's "heat" - it's the reason sunlight makes you feel hot if you stand in it too long. Take away the energy, and there is no heat getting to the world - temperatures would drop. So not only would it devestate the planet's ecology, but it would plunge the once-arid world into an ice age.

There is no such thing as de-energized light.  Light isn't something that carries energy, light *is* energy.  If light is reaching the planet, then not all of the solar energy is being captured.

Not that it's really a big deal to let some of that energy escape, especially considering how much lost energy that actually entails.  Earth for example, is powered nearly in it's entirety by the sun.  The actual percentage of the suns output that reaches earth?  .000000045%

Rannoch is closer to Tikkun then earth is to Sol, but we're still talking billionths of a percent. 

WRONG. Solar energy is stored in sunlight in the form of heat and UV raidiation. De-energixed light IS real, because it already happens EVERY DAY. When sunlight goes through the ozone, some of the solar energy is siphoned away. Without the ozone, the solar energy and radiation would be much more intense.  This stuff isn't hard to look up.

And the light would be nothing but just that - light. No heat to it, no energy, no UV rays. Just the illumination of the star.
And if the complete total of the star's energy output is being actively siphoned, that number of energy drops exponentally. These sattlites are ment to completely blanket Rannoch's star. Energy draw from all sides.
And being a desert world, losing the primary mammals that supported the ecosystem - the quarians - undoubtedly hurt Rannoch's ecology as is. Losing the solar energy output, and the heat it carries, would devestate Rannoch's plant life in addition to global cooling from lack of heat/UV rays.

I don't get that the Geth are to build their home in the Quarian system though? They're outside the system in the veil? They wouldn't do that, Legion would of known of it and the codex says nothing about it? Where did you get that info?

Just curious.

The geth are building this thing around Rannoch's star, Tikkun. And I looked up dyson spheres for info on their effects. Although, since we have no actuall dyson spheres in real-life, most effects are based on theroetical proportions, and probable risks/enviromental damages.

I don't think so, their 'home' as it were is out beyond that veil, hidden from detection. Makes it impossible to defeat Geth normally. The Alliance cannot even find that home they're constructing, as far as I know.. That was my question, when did the Geth start building a dyson sphere you described perfectly earlier? Is this a hypothetical situation?

Did I miss a lore memo?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Again, "we need a world to shelter our noncombatents while we do it." Koris is still clinging to the idea that somewhere out there, a world that matches Rannoch is going to fall right into their laps. Koris is an idealist. That's not a bad thing, but banking everything on blind hope can only go so far. As for Tali, it's because she's friends with Legion, and after what happened with her father, she's grown tired of the mutiual distrust from both sides. She now wants a world where geth and quarians co-habitate, a view that Koris shares. And Koris is the only one willing to take Legion's word on blind faith. None of the other Admirals are willing to do anything without evidence. Think of Koris as the quarian version of Anderson on the Council - willing to trust Tali on faith that she knows what she's doing. But still different, in that Anderson had Kaiden/Ashley confirm your claims first. Koris is again, an idealist, which is risky when 17 million hang in the balance. You don't screw around with an entire races future unless you have hard proof to back up the action your taking.

2. It STILL was no threat to them. Look at Haestrom. They didn't buldoze the ruins on that world for construction. Why did they need to do so for Rannoch's Ancestor Archives? What was gained?

3. Geth don't need bodies, remember? Testing it on geth programs contained within an isolated server is just as effective - she likely learned from Rael's mistake of giving them bodies. One server housing enough programs to pilot a ship. If that is effective, she moves on to work on two servers. Then three. Then finally, field testing. As a viral weapon, it can be used by ANY SHIP, meaning that one quarians ship can disable several geth ships with this weapon. Field test being sucessful, she would move to the coup de' grace  - active use in war. Remember, Xen was developing this  weapon for at least 5 months following ME2 - more then enough time to garuntee it's functionality, and get at least one field test. And then the last month before ME3 was spent voting on weather to go to war, and then arming all ships for the invasion when the majority vote came out as "yes."

1.  Right so it is better to strap guns to ships your kids live in and send them to war than take the chance of Shep, Legion and Tali talking about peace?  It is an absurd position Silver.  If I had a kid then before I send him to war, I will talk to whoever I need to talk to whether I trust them or not.  Trust is irrelevant when the alternative is my kid being put in harm's way.  

2.  Haelstrom was a base.  There is nothing on Haelstrom that is non-military in nature as far as I can tell.  The sun destroys shields so you need shelter.  Or did I miss a well preserved library?

3.  It still does not prove it can work on a large scale.  It still does not prove that the Geth can't come up with a countermeasure.  She did not attack the Consensus who when combined have ridiculous processing power so there is no way to prove the Geth won't develop a counter-measure because those units as Shep says aren't more more intelligent than an animal.  The Geth's power is the Consensus and the weapon was not tested on it.

1. Certinly better then ending up Reaper harvests, or husks, that's for sure. And AGAIN, no hard proof. The absurd position is risking your entire species on unconformed information. No one in their right mind is going to risk their entire civilization on blind faith and a prayer. Yet that's exactally what you keep suggesting - throw themselves into the hole and hope its' not full of spikes.
That exact statement - trust is irrlivent when your kids at stake - is EXACTALLY why the Admirals DIDN'T trust Tali & Legion's proposal. Trust in Tali is secondary to the lives of the entire quarian race. They can't afford gambling with their future.

2. The place Tali was in, rememver? An observatory with intact data archives and recording equipment. Old consoles that still functioned. And the geth never bothered to buldoze that.
There was no reason to destroy the Archives on Rannoch.

3. AGAIN, 5 months of testing on captive geth, remember? Rael's data wasn't destroyed completely. Xen recovered the Alerei and continued from there. Also, as proven by the quarians very presance in Rannoch, for all their "ridiculous processing power"  they NEVER DID come up with a countermeasure, did they? They had to have the Reapers do that for them. The weapon was based off geth technology itself. Adaptive, using geth tech to predict how they would respond, and tweak the weapon accordingly. Rael spent at least a year or so working on this weapon, and Xen finished it after 5 more months. Also, to make sure the geth weren't ever given the chance, they bull-rushed Rannoch to take them down fast.
Also, the megastructure attack destroyed the geth's ability to form consensis. They were unable to re-connect in large enough groups to estlablish consensis. The loss of the abilaty to form consensis is why the geth sided with the Reapers.

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

Dyson swarm
A Dyson ring — the simplest form of the Dyson swarm — to scale. Orbit is 1 AU in radius, collectors are 1.0×107 km in diameter (~25× the Earth–Moon distance), spaced 3 degrees from center to center around the orbital circle.
A relatively simple arrangement of multiple Dyson rings of the type pictured above, to form a more complex Dyson swarm. Rings' orbital radii are spaced 1.5×107 km with regard to one another, but average orbital radius is still 1 AU. Rings are rotated 15 degrees relative to one another, around a common axis of rotation.The variant closest to Dyson's original conception is the "Dyson swarm". It consists of a large number of independent constructs (usually solar power satellites and space habitats) orbiting in a dense formation around the star. This construction approach has advantages: components could be sized appropriately, and it can be constructed incrementally.[4] Various forms of wireless energy transfer could be used to transfer energy between components and earth.

Disadvantages: the nature of orbital mechanics would make the arrangement of the orbits of the swarm extremely complex. The simplest such arrangement is the Dyson ring in which all such structures share the same orbit. More complex patterns with more rings would intercept more of the star's output, but would result in some constructs eclipsing others periodically when their orbits overlap.[6] Another potential problem is the increasing loss of orbital stability when adding more elements increases the probability of orbital perturbations.

As noted below, such a cloud of collectors would alter the light emitted by the star system. However, the disruption compared to a star's overall natural emitted spectrum would most likely be too small to be noticed on Earth

yeah, it takes time for light to reach another place, even all the goodies would still be there for those. But if it were designed 'in system' where other planets reside and need it's output..there would be trouble. I don't believe that the Geth would try it, even if possible. Where they're hid out, there is plenty of open star matter to absorb energy from. In their cluster, the stars are closely packed. Geth are impervious to extreme out put from nasty stars. Heck they could even siphon off some rays off those black holes floating about. One blast off those would be quite..energetic,even at long distance.

Quasars and mother natures own personal garbage collector Black hole . Makes the crucible seem like cheap fireworks.

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I don't get that the Geth are to build their home in the Quarian system though? They're outside the system in the veil? They wouldn't do that, Legion would of known of it and the codex says nothing about it? Where did you get that info?

Just curious.

The geth are building this thing around Rannoch's star, Tikkun. And I looked up dyson spheres for info on their effects. Although, since we have no actuall dyson spheres in real-life, most effects are based on theroetical proportions, and probable risks/enviromental damages.

I don't think so, their 'home' as it were is out beyond that veil, hidden from detection. Makes it impossible to defeat Geth normally. The Alliance cannot even find that home they're constructing, as far as I know.. That was my question, when did the Geth start building a dyson sphere you described perfectly earlier? Is this a hypothetical situation?

Did I miss a lore memo?

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 avril 2013 - 02:02 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Your argument hinges on the idea that continuing to occupy Rannoch, a homeworld taken by conquest from another race and thus ripe with reasons for attack, with your position completely exposed and known, is a better situation for the geth than vacating the area as an olive branch. 

Rannoch was not taken.  The Geth were born there.  They simply kicked out the a**holes that didn't want to live there with them as good neighbors.

Quarian space was already set up for the Geth.  They helped mine and build it remember.  They know where all the resources are.  Bases and such have already been built.  It is already capable of supporting them and so it makes no sense to wander Council space when they have a large army waiting for you and to look for a planet and spend years building it up and hoping the organics don't attack in the interim.

This is precisely why the Quarians wanting Rannoch in ME3 was stupid.  They had no way of knowing it was ready and from their perspective would have taken years to be ready to support them.  

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Dyson swarm
As noted below, such a cloud of collectors would alter the light emitted by the star system. However, the disruption compared to a star's overall natural emitted spectrum would most likely be too small to be noticed on Earth

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dyson_Sphere

Based on the above while a Dyson Swarm alter's the light emitted by a star system, the disruption is to small to be noticed.  I am no science guy but I will ask a simple question.  Does it make sense for the Geth to be caretakers of Rannoch while simulataneously building something that would destroy the eco-system?

So unless Bioware said it in the game, this speculation seems to be just that speculation.  More likely they would simply create a Dyson Swarm that does not wreck Rannoch's ecosystem.  

Rannoch is an arid world. The plants there need sunlight, and warmth to survive. The Dyson Sphere takes away both. Also, I doubt the geth would fail to produce a more effective collection method, to absorb as much of the star's output as possible. The total output.  This is what they all plan to load into. They already had hundreds of these collectors in place, with ajoining stations.

The care of Rannoch is secondary to compleating the megastructure. And to that question, I ask another: does it make sense to build the thing in Rannoch's system at ALL? Surely there were other places that DON't have life-sustaining worlds to put at risk. Why Tikkun spicifically?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 avril 2013 - 02:07 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

Legion does not say the plan is to wreck Rannoch's ecosystem.  Again, why would they take care of Rannoch only for this Dyson swarm to destroy it? It makes no logical sense.

The logical answer would be that they simply can regulate how much heat the satellites trap and for example have the satellites turned on to absorb heat from the sides of the star that are not shining on Rannoch.  There is always a side of the star that is facing away from a planet.

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I don't get that the Geth are to build their home in the Quarian system though? They're outside the system in the veil? They wouldn't do that, Legion would of known of it and the codex says nothing about it? Where did you get that info?

Just curious.

The geth are building this thing around Rannoch's star, Tikkun. And I looked up dyson spheres for info on their effects. Although, since we have no actuall dyson spheres in real-life, most effects are based on theroetical proportions, and probable risks/enviromental damages.

I don't think so, their 'home' as it were is out beyond that veil, hidden from detection. Makes it impossible to defeat Geth normally. The Alliance cannot even find that home they're constructing, as far as I know.. That was my question, when did the Geth start building a dyson sphere you described perfectly earlier? Is this a hypothetical situation?

Did I miss a lore memo?

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

But, the actual Geth consensus doesn't exist there, they reside way out past that Perseus Veil and I believe that dyson thing was formed with the receptors point 'out' to absorb energy to increase their connection with the consensus. Not to collect all the energy from the Quarian system. Legion stated that the Geth are building one in their system where the consensus/all Geth reside as intellect. Their home server energized by/with a Dyson sphere.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Rannoch is an arid world. The plants there need sunlight, and warmth to survive. The Dyson Sphere takes away both. Also, I doubt the geth would fail to produce a more effective collection method, to absorb as much of the star's output as possible. The total output.  This is what they all plan to load into. They already had hundreds of these collectors in place, with ajoining stations.

The care of Rannoch is secondary to compleating the megastructure. And to that question, I ask another: does it make sense to build the thing in Rannoch's system at ALL? Surely there were other places that DON't have life-sustaining worlds to put at risk. Why Tikkun spicifically?

See above, you just have the satellites absorb heat from the side facing away from the planet.  As a planet orbits and rotates, it will not be getting heat from every part of the Star.

Further, I suspect they built it there because they ultimately envisioned living in a symbiotic relationship with the Quarians.  Again, I think they want to serve their creators.  That was what they were designed for, that is what their name means and that is what they do whenever pre-MW and post war.  The Dyson Sphere was how Freeman Dyson envisioned an advanced species harnessed power.  That power does not only have to be used by the Geth and Freeman Dyson never envisioned it destroying the planet in the process.  You absord the energy and then can use it as you see fit.  The Quarians can use it too if they are at peace with the Geth.

I think the flaw in your logic is you like the Quarians assume the Geth do not want to serve them.  They do.  They never asked for this war.  Rannoch's flora and fauna have a symbiotic relationship with each other.  I think the writers intend for the Geth and Quarians to have a similar relationship.  The conflict started because the Quarians could not believe that.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 02:18 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Rannoch was not taken.  The Geth were born there.  They simply kicked out the a**holes that didn't want to live there with them as good neighbors.

Taken by rebellion, then. My point here isn't about who was right or wrong, only that the quarians were driven out by force and not their own choice. Consequently, the geth would have to be morons not to expect the quarians to want it back. And that's basically what you're saying when you say the geth didn't expect war. Now this doesn't shift the blame squarely on the shoulders of the geth and exonerate the quarians, only that the actions of the geth are far from conducive to peace and by extention their best interests.

Quarian space was already set up for the Geth.  They helped mine and build it remember.  They know where all the resources are.  Bases and such have already been built.  It is already capable of supporting them and so it makes no sense to wander Council space when they have a large army waiting for you and to look for a planet and spend years building it up and hoping the organics don't attack in the interim.

Who said anything about Council space?

You really think the geth - desparate for reconciliation with their creators - wouldn't chance more incovenient resource gathering to facilitate peace?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 02:19 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Taken by rebellion, then. My point here isn't about who was right or wrong, only that the quarians were driven out by force and not their own choice. Consequently, the geth would have to be morons not to expect the quarians to want it back. And that's basically what you're saying when you say the geth didn't expect war.

Who said anything about Council space?

You really think the geth - apparently oh so desparate for reconciliation with their creators - wouldn't chance more incovenient resource gathering to facilitate peace?

It was their choice when they chose to attack a superior force but fine I get your point.  And no I am not saying the Geth did not expect war.  I am saying the Geth's only leverage with the Quarians until Shep is Rannoch.  Simply giving it to them with no guarantees that lasting peace would result is suicide.  What's to stop them and the Council from attacking as they wander through space or as they try and build infrastructure on an unsettled world?

The Geth can only give up Rannoch when they are assured the Quarians and the rest of organics have no intention of destroying them.  That only happens because of Shep.  Well at least until you betray them and pick Destroy, lol.

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Taken by rebellion, then. My point here isn't about who was right or wrong, only that the quarians were driven out by force and not their own choice. Consequently, the geth would have to be morons not to expect the quarians to want it back. And that's basically what you're saying when you say the geth didn't expect war.

Who said anything about Council space?

You really think the geth - apparently oh so desparate for reconciliation with their creators - wouldn't chance more incovenient resource gathering to facilitate peace?

It was their choice when they chose to attack a superior force but fine I get your point.  And no I am not saying the Geth did not expect war.  I am saying the Geth's only leverage with the Quarians until Shep is Rannoch.  Simply giving it to them with no guarantees that lasting peace would result is suicide.  What's to stop them and the Council from attacking as they wander through space or as they try and build infrastructure on an unsettled world?

The Geth can only give up Rannoch when they are assured the Quarians and the rest of organics have no intention of destroying them.  That only happens because of Shep.  Well at least until you betray them and pick Destroy, lol.

Man that's cold...

really though, I wonder if there is a relay in the veil? It's kind of off the beaten path, and Geth always seem to survive harvests.. weird.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The Geth don't even need to settle on a planet.

They could have uprooted from the Quarian home system, sent a "Hey bros we're totally not evil kill bots or anything so you can have Rannoch back" extranet call, and then high tailed it to the space between stars to await developments.

But that would take a level of common sense that neither side of the issue seems to possess.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Taken by rebellion, then. My point here isn't about who was right or wrong, only that the quarians were driven out by force and not their own choice. Consequently, the geth would have to be morons not to expect the quarians to want it back. And that's basically what you're saying when you say the geth didn't expect war.

Who said anything about Council space?

You really think the geth - apparently oh so desparate for reconciliation with their creators - wouldn't chance more incovenient resource gathering to facilitate peace?

It was their choice when they chose to attack a superior force but fine I get your point.  And no I am not saying the Geth did not expect war.  I am saying the Geth's only leverage with the Quarians until Shep is Rannoch.  Simply giving it to them with no guarantees that lasting peace would result is suicide.  What's to stop them and the Council from attacking as they wander through space or as they try and build infrastructure on an unsettled world?

The Geth can only give up Rannoch when they are assured the Quarians and the rest of organics have no intention of destroying them.  That only happens because of Shep.  Well at least until you betray them and pick Destroy, lol.

Man that's cold...

really though, I wonder if there is a relay in the veil? It's kind of off the beaten path, and Geth always seem to survive harvests.. weird.

The Geth are only 300 years old. There haven't been any Harvests in that time.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

It was their choice when they chose to attack a superior force but fine I get your point.  And no I am not saying the Geth did not expect war.  I am saying the Geth's only leverage with the Quarians until Shep is Rannoch.  Simply giving it to them with no guarantees that lasting peace would result is suicide.  What's to stop them and the Council from attacking as they wander through space or as they try and build infrastructure on an unsettled world?

The Geth can only give up Rannoch when they are assured the Quarians and the rest of organics have no intention of destroying them.  That only happens because of Shep.  Well at least until you betray them and pick Destroy, lol.

The Council weren't refraining from an attack on the geth because they were holding Rannoch hostage. There is no larger likelihood that the Council attacks the geth in the event they leave Rannoch.

For someone so vehemently attacking the quarians for not exploring every last option besides war, you seem able to come up with a variety of excuses for why the geth don't have to do the same. If the geth are truly holding a knife to Rannoch's throat as a bargaining chip with the quarians, then peace is not being negotiated in good faith by either side.

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Taken by rebellion, then. My point here isn't about who was right or wrong, only that the quarians were driven out by force and not their own choice. Consequently, the geth would have to be morons not to expect the quarians to want it back. And that's basically what you're saying when you say the geth didn't expect war.

Who said anything about Council space?

You really think the geth - apparently oh so desparate for reconciliation with their creators - wouldn't chance more incovenient resource gathering to facilitate peace?

It was their choice when they chose to attack a superior force but fine I get your point.  And no I am not saying the Geth did not expect war.  I am saying the Geth's only leverage with the Quarians until Shep is Rannoch.  Simply giving it to them with no guarantees that lasting peace would result is suicide.  What's to stop them and the Council from attacking as they wander through space or as they try and build infrastructure on an unsettled world?

The Geth can only give up Rannoch when they are assured the Quarians and the rest of organics have no intention of destroying them.  That only happens because of Shep.  Well at least until you betray them and pick Destroy, lol.

Man that's cold...

really though, I wonder if there is a relay in the veil? It's kind of off the beaten path, and Geth always seem to survive harvests.. weird.

The Geth are only 300 years old. There haven't been any Harvests in that time.

Darn, you're correct, my bad. I had to go look it up, but found the dates kind of iffy on the Geth/Quarian wars thing. From the wiki,  the Geth were around for 700 yrs. But the thing states the war started the same day they were created? Or something. I got messed up on the "old machines" as if the Geth were aware of reapers, as in surviving harvest,etc. I'm due for another playthrough.

My memory could use some reaper code, for sure..

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Council weren't refraining from an attack on the geth because they were holding Rannoch hostage. There is no larger likelihood that the Council attacks the geth in the event they leave Rannoch.

For someone so vehemently attacking the quarians for not exploring every last option besides war, you seem able to come up with a variety of excuses for why the geth don't have to do the same. If the geth are truly holding a knife to Rannoch's throat as a bargaining chip with the quarians, then peace is not being negotiated in good faith by either side.

The Council amassed an army outside fo the PV.  As long as the Geth stayed behind the PV, no attack was emiment.  The Council did not know Geth positions, defenses, etc. because no ship ever entering the PV ever returned.  It is a defensible position.  Trading that away to wander in space especially Council Space is stupid.  Trading that away to give the Quarians a chance to repopulate and launch an attack once they do is idiotic.

The Geth were not planning war.  Where is that stated?  They simply kept a defensible location in space that was not considered Council Space.  They stayed behind the PV.  They were not planning a war so they don't have to exhaust all options.

And what do you mean peace is not being negotiated in good faith.  No army that wins land just gives it up so their enemy can regroup and attack them again.  The Geth are doing what any army does.  Is there an example of an organic army returning land after defeating someone in MEU?  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 02:57 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The Geth were aware of the Reapers.

Sovereign had a nice chat with them when he was canvasing for support for the whole "Well shucks looks like I'm going to have to get medieval on these primitive organics" bit.

He got the heretics, and the geth decided not to tell anyone about any of it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Council weren't refraining from an attack on the geth because they were holding Rannoch hostage. There is no larger likelihood that the Council attacks the geth in the event they leave Rannoch.

For someone so vehemently attacking the quarians for not exploring every last option besides war, you seem able to come up with a variety of excuses for why the geth don't have to do the same. If the geth are truly holding a knife to Rannoch's throat as a bargaining chip with the quarians, then peace is not being negotiated in good faith by either side.

  Is there an example of an organic army returning land after defeating someone? 

Too many examples to list really.

But that's because human wars are usually not knock-down drag out extermination fights.

[remydat]

The Council amassed an army outside fo the PV.  As long as the Geth stayed behind the PV, no attack was emiment.  The Council did not know Geth positions, defenses, etc. because no ship ever entering the PV ever returned.  It is a defensible position.  Trading that away to wander in space especially Council Space is stupid.  Trading that away to give the Quarians a chance to repopulate and launch an attack once they do is idiotic

The Geth were not planning war.  Where is that stated?  They simply kept a defensible location in space that was not considered Council Space.  They stayed behind the PV.  They were not planning a war so they don't have to exhaust all options.

And what do you mean peace is not being negotiated in good faith.  No army that wins land just gives it up so their enemy can regroup and attack them again.  The Geth are doing what any army does.  Is there an example of an organic army returning land after defeating someone in MEU?  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 03:06 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
The Council amassed an army outside fo the PV.  As long as the Geth stayed behind the PV, no attack was emiment.  The Council did not know Geth positions, defenses, etc. because no ship ever entering the PV ever returned.  It is a defensible position.  Trading that away to wander in space especially Council Space is stupid.  Trading that away to give the Quarians a chance to repopulate and launch an attack once they do is idiotic.

This comes down to whether or not the geth believe the quarians want peace. If they do, then the better course of action is to leave Rannoch, which will at least demonstrate to the quarians that the geth don't want to fight and pave the way for peace. The Council has already shown they don't give a **** what happens outside their space, so the ONLY people the geth have to worry about outside Council space is the quarians.

If they don't believe the quarians, then they aren't looking for peace at all. Which is clearly stated otherwise. Since they want peace with the quarians, then they chose just about the worst option to demonstrate this.

The Geth were not planning war.  Where is that stated?  They simply kept a defensible location in space that was not considered Council Space.  They stayed behind the PV.  They were not planning a war so they don't have to exhaust all options.

They have to try and exhaust all options to AVOID war.

And what do you mean peace is not being negotiated in good faith.  No army that wins land just gives it up so their enemy can regroup and attack them again.  The Geth are doing what any army does.  Is there an example of an organic army returning land after defeating someone in MEU?  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

If this is just a matter of "that's how war works" then it isn't really objectionable at all that the quarians launch another war to take it back, right? To the victors go the spoils.

Regardless, if you're asking whether or not land has ever been given over to avoid ANOTHER war, then the answer is yes.

[Phatose]

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

So, yes, the geth's Dyson Swarm would have absorbed all the energy from the Tikkun star. There would be light, but that's just illumination. There would be no solar energy carried in that light. Like expunging all the calcium from a glass of milk - you still have something in the glass, but all the nutriants are gone from it. The loss of solar energy from the Dyson Swarm's completeion would have killed all the plant life. Also, solar energy is what gives sunlight it's "heat" - it's the reason sunlight makes you feel hot if you stand in it too long. Take away the energy, and there is no heat getting to the world - temperatures would drop. So not only would it devestate the planet's ecology, but it would plunge the once-arid world into an ice age.

There is no such thing as de-energized light.  Light isn't something that carries energy, light *is* energy.  If light is reaching the planet, then not all of the solar energy is being captured.

Not that it's really a big deal to let some of that energy escape, especially considering how much lost energy that actually entails.  Earth for example, is powered nearly in it's entirety by the sun.  The actual percentage of the suns output that reaches earth?  .000000045%

Rannoch is closer to Tikkun then earth is to Sol, but we're still talking billionths of a percent. 

WRONG. Solar energy is stored in sunlight in the form of heat and UV raidiation. De-energixed light IS real, because it already happens EVERY DAY. When sunlight goes through the ozone, some of the solar energy is siphoned away. Without the ozone, the solar energy and radiation would be much more intense.  This stuff isn't hard to look up.

And the light would be nothing but just that - light. No heat to it, no energy, no UV rays. Just the illumination of the star.
And if the complete total of the star's energy output is being actively siphoned, that number of energy drops exponentally. These sattlites are ment to completely blanket Rannoch's star. Energy draw from all sides.
And being a desert world, losing the primary mammals that supported the ecosystem - the quarians - undoubtedly hurt Rannoch's ecology as is. Losing the solar energy output, and the heat it carries, would devestate Rannoch's plant life in addition to global cooling from lack of heat/UV rays.

OK, apparently, physics ain't your strong point.  Either that or you're young and haven't hit any of this in your high school physics courses yet.

When sunlight goes through the ozone, certain wavelengths of light are absorbed.  That's it.  That's what's happening.  Some of the solar energy is absorbed, yes.  Because some of the light is absorbed.  Ozone is transparent to optical frequencies, it is not transparent to UV.  The UV frequencies of light gets absorbed.

UV rays *are* light.  Ultraviolet light.

E=hv

All light is energy.  You can actually calculate the energy of any particular photon of light with nothing more then it's frequency, Planck's constant, and the speed of light.  If there is no energy, there is no wavelength, ergo there is no light.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Hey Remy I caught your Godwin, I know you edited it out but I'm going to correct you anyway.

Germany has its own full scale army.

We (the western allies) made sure it was rebuilt quickly to help with any Soviet aggression.

The Ruskies did the same with the Eastern fragment.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 avril 2013 - 03:11 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Or they can just counter attack and exterminate the Geth like they should have the first time around.

Makes for a better story.

Of course the geth decide to bring Reapers into the mix...which leads to "fun".

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 avril 2013 - 03:14 .

[Wayning_Star]

why does everyone just forget that the Geth don't hang in the MEU, so much as hide out beyond the veil as pretty much programs. You cannot destroy the Geth, you cannot get to them, short of the crucible detonation...