4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This comes down to whether or not the geth believe the quarians want peace. If they do, then the better course of action is to leave Rannoch, which will at least demonstrate to the quarians that the geth don't want to fight and pave the way for peace. The Council has already shown they don't give a **** what happens outside their space, so the ONLY people the geth have to worry about outside Council space is the quarians.

If they don't believe the quarians, then they aren't looking for peace at all. Which is clearly stated otherwise. Since they want peace with the quarians, then they chose just about the worst option to demonstrate this.

They have to try and exhaust all options to AVOID war.

If this is just a matter of "that's how war works" then it isn't really objectionable at all that the quarians launch another war to take it back, right? To the victors go the spoils.

Regardless, if you're asking whether or not land has ever been given over to avoid ANOTHER war, then the answer is yes.

Look I am going to pull a Godwin here.  I have been to Germany and Japan.  Those countries can't have proper armies and they will have a US miliatary presence from now until eternity because they started a war and lost.  Are you telling me the Quarians were willing to agree to something like this in exchange for Rannoch?

You don't get to make demands when you try to exterminate someone and lose.  Sure you can try and start another war but then that just makes you the aggressor in both wars and so you get no sympathy from me.  No one felt sorry for Germany.  They started two wars and got their a** kicked and rightfully so.

So feel free to start another war.  That doesn't mean you are not being stupid.  The first time it cost you 2 billion lives and the second time it would have cost you extinction if not for Legion and Shepard.  At what point will the Quarians learn they are not exactly doing well when it comes to picking fights?  The Reapers are here.  They are synthetic. They had dealings with a faction of Geth.  It doesn't take a rocket science to envision that hey maybe if I attack the Geth, the Reapers might help them.  It is one thing to be the aggressor and win.  It is quite another to be the aggressor and get your a** handed to you twice.

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Council weren't refraining from an attack on the geth because they were holding Rannoch hostage. There is no larger likelihood that the Council attacks the geth in the event they leave Rannoch.

For someone so vehemently attacking the quarians for not exploring every last option besides war, you seem able to come up with a variety of excuses for why the geth don't have to do the same. If the geth are truly holding a knife to Rannoch's throat as a bargaining chip with the quarians, then peace is not being negotiated in good faith by either side.

  Is there an example of an organic army returning land after defeating someone? 

Too many examples to list really.

But that's because human wars are usually not knock-down drag out extermination fights.

so THAT'S why Shepard chooses synthesis? Who knew?!?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

why does everyone just forget that the Geth don't hang in the MEU, so much as hide out beyond the veil as pretty much programs. You cannot destroy the Geth, you cannot get to them, short of the crucible detonation...

The Geth die above Rannoch.

They were primarily based in the Quarian home system.


I really don't know where you keep getting these odd notions.

[Wayning_Star]

Nah, humans never ever ever ever use the biggest gun to win war.

(wars are never actually won, they just ,eventually,stop, on practicalities

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey Remy I caught your Godwin, I know you edited it out but I'm going to correct you anyway.

Germany has its own full scale army.

We (the western allies) made sure it was rebuilt quickly to help with any Soviet aggression.

The Ruskies did the same with the Eastern fragment.

 I was suppose to make it a new post and accidentally edited an existing post.  That is why I put the original post back.  I know moved it down to my response to Crono.

I said propery army.  The German Army has about 60,000 soldiers.  It is not a major force.  And the Russians completely controlled the East German Army.

If you are saying the Quarians would have agreed to their army being under the direct supervision of the Geth then fine. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 avril 2013 - 03:23 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey Remy I caught your Godwin, I know you edited it out but I'm going to correct you anyway.

Germany has its own full scale army.

We (the western allies) made sure it was rebuilt quickly to help with any Soviet aggression.

The Ruskies did the same with the Eastern fragment.

I said propery army.  The German Army has about 60,000 soldiers.  It is not a major force.  And the Russians completely controlled the East German Army.

60,000 soldiers is a proper army.

But you're far to focused on whatever your current brand of logic is to care.

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

why does everyone just forget that the Geth don't hang in the MEU, so much as hide out beyond the veil as pretty much programs. You cannot destroy the Geth, you cannot get to them, short of the crucible detonation...

The Geth die above Rannoch.

They were primarily based in the Quarian home system.


I really don't know where you keep getting these odd notions.

Their intellect is the consensus, the geth platforms reside 'IN MEU'. Do one in, it just heads back to it's server just past the veil. They got lots of platforms over there...The Alliance would love to know how many, just for the fun of it, cause there is nothing they can do about it...at all.

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey Remy I caught your Godwin, I know you edited it out but I'm going to correct you anyway.

Germany has its own full scale army.

We (the western allies) made sure it was rebuilt quickly to help with any Soviet aggression.

The Ruskies did the same with the Eastern fragment.

I said propery army.  The German Army has about 60,000 soldiers.  It is not a major force.  And the Russians completely controlled the East German Army.

60,000 soldiers is a proper army.

But you're far to focused on whatever your current brand of logic is to care.

only if you got the bucks to keep them fed and bred...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Remember that server that Shepard and Legion take down?

That had some of the geth consensus in it.

They aren't all hanging out in the void between stars like you seem to think.

The fact that they're all in the Quarian home system is what makes their extermination so final.

It isn't "Well looks like we destroyed all their mobile platforms, too bad about those unreachable servers" it's "And that's the end of the Geth."

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
You don't get to make demands when you try to exterminate someone and lose.  Sure you can try and start another war but then that just makes you the aggressor in both wars and so you get no sympathy from me.  No one felt sorry for Germany.  They started two wars and got their a** kicked and rightfully so.

Oh no, I don't believe the geth should vacate Rannoch because the quarians demand they do. I think they should vacate Rannoch because it is in their best interest to do so. The quarians are in no moral position to demand anything from the geth.

So feel free to start another war.  That doesn't mean you are not being stupid.  The first time it cost you 2 billion lives and the second time it would have cost you extinction if not for Legion and Shepard.  At what point will the Quarians learn they are not exactly doing well when it comes to picking fights?  The Reapers are here.  They are synthetic. They had dealings with a faction of Geth.  It doesn't take a rocket science to envision that hey maybe if I attack the Geth, the Reapers might help them.  It is one thing to be the aggressor and win.  It is quite another to be the aggressor and get your a** handed to you twice.

Well sure, but saying the quarians would have lost if not for Shepard (in the case of him siding with the quarians or peace) is about on the same level as saying the geth would have lost if not for the Reapers. Allies are allies.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Or they can just counter attack and exterminate the Geth like they should have the first time around.

Makes for a better story.

Of course the geth decide to bring Reapers into the mix...which leads to "fun".

Or the Geth should have just killed them all instead of allowing them to escape.  Then again, why bother when these idiots are going to attack you in the middle of a war against a powerful synthetic race without bother to consider whether that powerful synthetic race will help you.

Sorry bro, the Quarians are f**king idiots.  They picked a fight and lost 2 billion lives and then picked another won without pondering the most obvious result ie the Reapers helping the Geth.  They then had to rely on a human and a Geth to prevent their extinction.

This is probably why they should focus on providing support to the rest of the galaxy and not be put in position to make decisions.  They always f**k up someone.  Lest we forget in the non-peace options they die because 3 Admirals can't communicate.  At this point, they are the MEU equivalent of the French post Napoleon when it comes to war, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 03:26 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Hey Remy I caught your Godwin, I know you edited it out but I'm going to correct you anyway.

Germany has its own full scale army.

We (the western allies) made sure it was rebuilt quickly to help with any Soviet aggression.

The Ruskies did the same with the Eastern fragment.

I said propery army.  The German Army has about 60,000 soldiers.  It is not a major force.  And the Russians completely controlled the East German Army.

60,000 soldiers is a proper army.

But you're far to focused on whatever your current brand of logic is to care.

only if you got the bucks to keep them fed and bred...

Which is obviously something the Germans are capable of.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Or they can just counter attack and exterminate the Geth like they should have the first time around.

Makes for a better story.

Of course the geth decide to bring Reapers into the mix...which leads to "fun".

Sorry bro, the Quarians are f**king idiots

So are the Geth.

They had three hundred years to get their sh*t together (just like the Quarians) and they proceeded to learn NOTHING from any of it (just like the Quarians), and then when it came down to it they decided becoming Reaper puppets was just fine and dandy (Just like the....oh wait that one's entirely on them).

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Or they can just counter attack and exterminate the Geth like they should have the first time around.

Makes for a better story.

Of course the geth decide to bring Reapers into the mix...which leads to "fun".

 At this point, they are the MEU equivalent of the French post Napoleon when it comes to war, lol.

A track record of resisting genocidal maniacs?
An inspiring resistence movement against said genocidal maniacs?
Holding the line through four years of brutal trench warfare?

Pretty good then.

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Remember that server that Shepard and Legion take down?

That had some of the geth consensus in it.

They aren't all hanging out in the void between stars like you seem to think.

The fact that they're all in the Quarian home system is what makes their extermination so final.

It isn't "Well looks like we destroyed all their mobile platforms, too bad about those unreachable servers" it's "And that's the end of the Geth."

wishful thinking? The lore doesn't describe the situation like that at all, and 'some' is not the consensus proper, the Geth aren't willing to sacrifice all for Rannoch. Legion tells Shep that more platforms are elsewhere. They do that so they won't be exterminated. Probably a byproduct of the scuffle with Quarians and about any other organic intellect they encounter, since their emancipation. They learn and have excellent memory.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

60,000 soldiers is a proper army.

But you're far to focused on whatever your current brand of logic is to care.

There are third world countries with more soldiers than that.  And the point was the German Armies in the West and East were both monitored by the West and the Russians.  They did not have the autonomy to operate freely and to this day the US Army bases in Germany.

Do you see German Army bases in America?

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

A track record of resisting genocidal maniacs?
An inspiring resistence movement against said genocidal maniacs?
Holding the line through four years of brutal trench warfare?

Pretty good then.

Haha ok, I am sure that is what most people think of when they think French Army.  I was referring to the criticism they get from the US and the UK but it was a joke so I won't belabor the point.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 03:35 .

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

remydat wrote...

  The Quarians lost.  They can't act like they are on equal footing with the victors.  That is not how war works.  They are the ones that need to make concessions if they want their land back.

Or they can just counter attack and exterminate the Geth like they should have the first time around.

Makes for a better story.

Of course the geth decide to bring Reapers into the mix...which leads to "fun".

Sorry bro, the Quarians are f**king idiots

So are the Geth.

They had three hundred years to get their sh*t together (just like the Quarians) and they proceeded to learn NOTHING from any of it (just like the Quarians), and then when it came down to it they decided becoming Reaper puppets was just fine and dandy (Just like the....oh wait that one's entirely on them).

you can only fight organics with the code you got..lol

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Remember that server that Shepard and Legion take down?

That had some of the geth consensus in it.

They aren't all hanging out in the void between stars like you seem to think.

The fact that they're all in the Quarian home system is what makes their extermination so final.

It isn't "Well looks like we destroyed all their mobile platforms, too bad about those unreachable servers" it's "And that's the end of the Geth."

wishful thinking? The lore doesn't describe the situation like that at all, and 'some' is not the consensus proper, the Geth aren't willing to sacrifice all for Rannoch. Legion tells Shep that more platforms are elsewhere. They do that so they won't be exterminated. Probably a byproduct of the scuffle with Quarians and about any other organic intellect they encounter, since their emancipation. They learn and have excellent memory.

So you're just going to ignore what actually happened in the game then?

Alright.

[Wayning_Star]

actually, once/if Legion downloads into the consensus, all this discussion is kind of moot?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

60,000 soldiers is a proper army.

But you're far to focused on whatever your current brand of logic is to care.

There are third world countries with more soldiers than that.  And the point was the German Armies in the West and East were both monitored by the West and the Russians.  They did not have the autonomy to operate freely and to this day the US Army bases in Germany.

Do you see German Army bases in America?

There are American army bases all over the world you poggle.

Many of them are in places the US has never actually fought.

Ah f*ck it you're just going to ignore any relevant information that doesn't match your "Teh Geths are super innocent" bent.

Somebody get me some popcorn.

[Wayning_Star]

.[/quote]

So you're just going to ignore what actually happened in the game then?

Alright.

[/quote]

I don't remember the game that way, Legion states otherwise, as to the fate of the Geth consensus is not at risk, only those within range of the broadcast. The codex/wiki states that the actual Geth reside beyond the veil, and send in as needed, platforms. Their consciousness is the consensus, they just go back to their source when destroyed.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually, once/if Legion downloads into the consensus, all this discussion is kind of moot?

If you pick the Quarians on Rannoch the Geth are exterminated, the game is completely clear about that.

if you pick the Geth on Rannoch the Quarians are exterminated (baring a few stragglers who won't last long on their own), again the game is completely clear about that.


So please explain where you are getting your "Well it's not like the geth are actually dead if you don't save them" bit, because there isn't much to back it up.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Oh no, I don't believe the geth should vacate Rannoch because the quarians demand they do. I think they should vacate Rannoch because it is in their best interest to do so. The quarians are in no moral position to demand anything from the geth.

Well sure, but saying the quarians would have lost if not for Shepard (in the case of him siding with the quarians or peace) is about on the same level as saying the geth would have lost if not for the Reapers. Allies are allies.

It is not in their best interest if the organics attack them before they can find and settle a new world.  There is no real reason for them to believe that.

The difference is the Quarians started the war without accounting for the most obvious possibility ie Repears helping the Geth.

Furthermore, even with Shepard they would have lost if not for Legion.  So they not only needed allies, they needed a Geth to betray his entire race.  Don't think that was part of the plan.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...


I don't remember the game that way, Legion states otherwise, as to the fate of the Geth consensus is not at risk, only those within range of the broadcast. The codex/wiki states that the actual Geth reside beyond the veil, and send in as needed, platforms. Their consciousness is the consensus, they just go back to their source when destroyed.

Now you're just being obtuse.

They're dead and gone if you side against them. They aren't "just sent back to the source" because it's all been destroyed.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 avril 2013 - 03:40 .