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[Wayning_Star]

[quote]Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...



So you're just going to ignore what actually happened in the game then?

Alright.

[/quote]

I don't remember the game that way, Legion states otherwise, as to the fate of the Geth consensus is not at risk, only those within range of the broadcast. The codex/wiki states that the actual Geth reside beyond the veil, and send in as needed, platforms. Their consciousness is the consensus, they just go back to their source when destroyed.[/quote]

Now you're just being obtuse.

They're dead and gone if you side against them. They aren't "just sent back to the source" because it's all been destroyed.

[/quote]

Oh, I never sided against them or the Quarians. That's where I went wrong. My bad again. I gotta play through again. But I'll get them to get along again..So I'm sort of stuck in a rut there. Obtuse fits, I'm afraid..lol

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So are the Geth.

They had three hundred years to get their sh*t together (just like the Quarians) and they proceeded to learn NOTHING from any of it (just like the Quarians), and then when it came down to it they decided becoming Reaper puppets was just fine and dandy (Just like the....oh wait that one's entirely on them).

Nope the Geth simply wanted to be left alone.  They were not planning a war and failing miserably to take into account the Reapers helping their enemy which is not that surprising given the Heretics.

The Quarians simply got outsmarted at every turn.  Pick a fight with harmless synthetics.  2 billion dead.  Pick a fight again while the Reapers are present.  Geth say f**k it we will join the Reapers just to deny you the satisfication of killing us with the weapon you created by experimenting on our dead and dying comrades.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

There are American army bases all over the world you poggle.

Many of them are in places the US has never actually fought.

Ah f*ck it you're just going to ignore any relevant information that doesn't match your "Teh Geths are super innocent" bent.

Somebody get me some popcorn.

Umm, the reason they are in Germany and Japan is the result of the War.  The fact they have deals with other countries is irrelevant.  

Those countries were mentioned to note there are consequences to starting and losing wars so the only relevant point is why those particular countries have US bases.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 03:49 .

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So are the Geth.

They had three hundred years to get their sh*t together (just like the Quarians) and they proceeded to learn NOTHING from any of it (just like the Quarians), and then when it came down to it they decided becoming Reaper puppets was just fine and dandy (Just like the....oh wait that one's entirely on them).

Nope the Geth simply wanted to be left alone.  They were not planning a war and failing miserably to take into account the Reapers helping their enemy which is not that surprising given the Heretics.

The Quarians simply got outsmarted at every turn.  Pick a fight with harmless synthetics.  2 billion dead.  Pick a fight again while the Reapers are present.  Geth say f**k it we will join the Reapers just to deny you the satisfication of killing us with the weapon you created by experimenting on our dead and dying comrades.

comrades is kind of a strong word for it. More like their "head"...experimenting on the platforms to get at the consensus, looking for a hole in their defense mechanism.. an evolutionary trait? Organics are sneak'n sneaky snakes..lol

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

https://encrypted-tb...yif_kUZJTpiAzn4

You constantly ignore anything that would paint the Geth in a bad light.

You view them as innocent widdle angels that can and have never done anything wrong.

You have officially killed any kind of pleasant discussion and you have actually succeeded in turning me against the Geth entirely.

I pass the torch back to Silver and bid you all good day.

Cheesecake out.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
It is not in their best interest if the organics attack them before they can find and settle a new world.  There is no real reason for them to believe that.

Which organics would those be? The quarians that just regained their homeworld, or the ones that don't care what happens outside Council space (all non-quarians)?

The difference is the Quarians started the war without accounting for the most obvious possibility ie Repears helping the Geth.

Furthermore, even with Shepard they would have lost if not for Legion.  So they not only needed allies, they needed a Geth to betray his entire race.  Don't think that was part of the plan.

It's been awhile since I've played: why would they have lost if not for Legion?

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

https://encrypted-tb...yif_kUZJTpiAzn4

You constantly ignore anything that would paint the Geth in a bad light.

You view them as innocent widdle angels that can and have never done anything wrong.

You have officially killed any kind of pleasant discussion and you have actually succeeded in turning me against the Geth entirely.

I pass the torch back to Silver and bid you all good day.

Cheesecake out.

I don't think it actually took much to do that tho. Why are you so mad at confused machine minds? They don't know any more about stuff than, say, organics? G's vs Q's is kind of silly anyways, considering the basis for the conflict.

They come in pretty handy later, in any event. Look at the bright side.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You constantly ignore anything that would paint the Geth in a bad light.

You view them as innocent widdle angels that can and have never done anything wrong.

You have officially killed any kind of pleasant discussion and you have actually succeeded in turning me against the Geth entirely.

I pass the torch back to Silver and bid you all good day.

Cheesecake out.

I don't ignore anything.  I explain why your attempts to paint them in a bad light is simply just your opinion and not fact.  You are free to have that opinion. 

And I have not insulted you so not sure how you think this is not pleasant.  I tell you what, you let me know what you think the Quarians did wrong and I will let you know what I think the Geth did wrong.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[Wayning_Star]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
It is not in their best interest if the organics attack them before they can find and settle a new world.  There is no real reason for them to believe that.

Which organics would those be? The quarians that just regained their homeworld, or the ones that don't care what happens outside Council space (all non-quarians)?

The difference is the Quarians started the war without accounting for the most obvious possibility ie Repears helping the Geth.

Furthermore, even with Shepard they would have lost if not for Legion.  So they not only needed allies, they needed a Geth to betray his entire race.  Don't think that was part of the plan.

It's been awhile since I've played: why would they have lost if not for Legion?

I think its because Legion sacrifices it's intellect to council the Geth consensus on human/organic behavior. Gain 'insight' and 'intuition'. People skills?

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You constantly ignore anything that would paint the Geth in a bad light.

You view them as innocent widdle angels that can and have never done anything wrong.

You have officially killed any kind of pleasant discussion and you have actually succeeded in turning me against the Geth entirely.

I pass the torch back to Silver and bid you all good day.

Cheesecake out.

I don't ignore anything.  I explain why your attempts to paint them in a bad light is simply just your opinion and not fact.  You are free to have that opinion. 

And I have not insulted you so not sure how you think this is not pleasant.  I tell you what, you let me know what you think the Quarians did wrong and I will let you know what I think the Geth did wrong.

interjection: it's a form of argumentative, diffuse the issue with 'humanisms', distract from a line of thought, confuse,etc.
 
irresistible force meets immovable object..

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Which organics would those be? The quarians that just regained their homeworld, or the ones that don't care what happens outside Council space (all non-quarians)?

It's been awhile since I've played: why would they have lost if not for Legion?

The ones that say AI should not exist and have an army outside the PV.  Where exactly are you proposing the Geth go?  Are they agreeing to being disarmed?  Are they agreeing to a Geth military presence to ensure they don't re-arm?  They started a war and lost so what are they going to give up?

After the Dreadnought mission, the Quarians think the Reaper signal has been disabled.  Legion corrects them and says there is a Reaper signal on Rannoch.  Without that knowledge and his intel in leading them to the signal, how would they have known about it?

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 04:04 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
 I tell you what, you let me know what you think the Quarians did wrong and I will let you know what I think the Geth did wrong.

The quarians made a short-sighted, panic-driven decision to try and destroy the geth back in the Morning War. After that, once it became obvious that Xen's research would lead to a quick destruction of geth forces, they ignored Koris and more importantly Tali, who through her involvement with both Shepard and Legion, would have been able to negotiate peace as the quarian representative. In all situations presented, they decided to listen to those preaching the quick and bloody path, instead of putting in the work for a better long-term solution.

Also, guys please keep this thread civil. If you're aggravated just take a break.

[Wayning_Star]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
 I tell you what, you let me know what you think the Quarians did wrong and I will let you know what I think the Geth did wrong.

The quarians made a short-sighted, panic-driven decision to try and destroy the geth back in the Morning War. After that, once it became obvious that Xen's research would lead to a quick destruction of geth forces, they ignored Koris and more importantly Tali, who through her involvement with both Shepard and Legion, would have been able to negotiate peace as the quarian representative. In all situations presented, they decided to listen to those preaching the quick and bloody path, instead of putting in the work for a better long-term solution.

Also, guys please keep this thread civil. If you're aggravated just take a break.

cheesecake started another destroy thread...so..?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You constantly ignore anything that would paint the Geth in a bad light.

You view them as innocent widdle angels that can and have never done anything wrong.

You have officially killed any kind of pleasant discussion and you have actually succeeded in turning me against the Geth entirely.

I pass the torch back to Silver and bid you all good day.

Cheesecake out.

And I have not insulted you so not sure how you think this is not pleasant.  I tell you what, you let me know what you think the Quarians did wrong and I will let you know what I think the Geth did wrong.

Fine.
What the Quarians did Wrong:

• Attack without considering peace
• Trying to shut the geth down in the first place
  

What the Geth did Wrong:

• Genocidal overreaction to the second point
• Not informing anyone about Sovereign
  
• Simply letting the heretics go when they bloody well knew what they were up to
  
• Choosing Reaper servitude
• Killing anyone who tried to make contact

So the way I tally it up each of the bullet points for the Quarians count as 2 meaning their screw up level is 4 overall.

Each bullet point for the geth is worth 1, meaning their screw up total is 5.

This leads me in the no peace scenario supplied by the OP to picking the Quarians.

Both sides are stupid, but ultimately I'm picking the one who didn't join the Reapers.

That's the long and short of it.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 avril 2013 - 04:08 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

The ones that say AI should not exist and have an army outside the PV.

Who?

Where exactly are you proposing the Geth go?  And what concessions are you proposing the Quarians give up.  Are they agreeing to being disarmed?  Are they agreeing to a Geth military presence to ensure they don't re-arm?  They started a war and lost so what are they going to give up?

None of this is feasible in the middle of the Reaper war. But it's clear in the peace cutscene that all that was really needed is that first step; once the quarians were on Rannoch and the geth were helping them readjust to life there, there was no need for concessions.

After the Dreadnought mission, the Quarians think the Reaper signal has been disabled.  Legion corrects them and says there is a Reaper signal on Rannoch.  Without that knowledge and his intel in leading them to the signal, how would they have known about it?

I'll have to look up what the Reaper signal does; I wasn't just being rhetorical when I said I don't remember much about the missions.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...


cheesecake started another destroy thread...so..?

It's not a destroy thread.

It's a "Which did you pick and what was your reasoning for that choice" thread.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The quarians made a short-sighted, panic-driven decision to try and destroy the geth back in the Morning War. After that, once it became obvious that Xen's research would lead to a quick destruction of geth forces, they ignored Koris and more importantly Tali, who through her involvement with both Shepard and Legion, would have been able to negotiate peace as the quarian representative. In all situations presented, they decided to listen to those preaching the quick and bloody path, instead of putting in the work for a better long-term solution.

Also, guys please keep this thread civil. If you're aggravated just take a break.

And the Geth used excessive force in killing 2 billion Quarians though I question whether they possessed the morality to understand their actions.  While they have a right to want to be left alone, their policy of isolation did not foster peace.  They could have stated to organics their conditions for a ceasefire and Legion could have been more blunt in letting the Quarians know precisely what they needed to do if they wanted Rannoch back.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 04:11 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

And the Geth used excessive force in killing 2 billion Quarians though I question whether they possessed the morality to understand their actions.  While they have a right to want to be left alone, their policy of isolation did not foster peace.  They could have stated to organics their conditions for a ceasefire and Legion could have been more blunt in letting the Quarians know precisely what they needed to do if they wanted Rannoch back.

True, but I'll also point out that the self-awareness of the geth was a complete accident, something for which the quarians were not prepared. It's fair to say they hadn't accidentally created AI before. I'd say in both cases, a lack of experience led to bloody results.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 04:16 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Who?

None of this is feasible in the middle of the Reaper war. But it's clear in the peace cutscene that all that was really needed is that first step; once the quarians were on Rannoch and the geth were helping them readjust to life there, there was no need for concessions.

I'll have to look up what the Reaper signal does; I wasn't just being rhetorical when I said I don't remember much about the missions.

The Council is the who.

Agreed it is not feasible during the Reaper war.  The Reaper War is akin to WWII in the sense that it forced the communists and capitalists to unite to defeat the fascists.  Of course that alliance was short lived.  My point was more about the 300 years preceding the Reapers.  I don't think it is feasible for them to just give them Rannoch without any concessions.  That is not how it works and without the Reaper threat, I don't think it would have worked.

The Dreadnaught had the long range signal from what I remember but the Reaper signal ie the Reaper in the bunker had the short range signal.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

True, but I'll also point out that the self-awareness of the geth was a complete accident, something for which the quarians were not prepared. It's fair to say they hadn't accidentally created AI before. I'd say in both cases, a lack of experience led to bloody results.

Fair enough.  I simply judge them more harshly because they presumably are old enough as a species to understand morality.  It was no doubt a mistake but one they choose to correct in the worst possible way.

Also, I am attacking the Illusive Man base again where Shep learns EDI was the Rogue VI Luna.  EDI notes how gaining self-awareness while being under attack was confusing which was her explanation for why she killed all those people on Luna to the last man.  Multiply that by millions with the Geth and perhaps you understand why I have been harping on the idea that the Geth didn't necessarily understand how extreme their actions were.

I had forgotten EDI flooding Cerberus with Joker's porn when they tried to re-take control of her, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 08 avril 2013 - 04:30 .

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Fine.
What the Quarians did Wrong:

• Attack without considering peace
• Trying to shut the geth down in the first place
  

What the Geth did Wrong:

• Genocidal overreaction to the second point
• Not informing anyone about Sovereign
  
• Simply letting the heretics go when they bloody well knew what they were up to
  
• Choosing Reaper servitude
  
• Killing anyone who tried to make contact

So the way I tally it up each of the bullet points for the Quarians count as 2 meaning their screw up level is 4 overall.

Each bullet point for the geth is worth 1, meaning their screw up total is 5.

This leads me in the no peace scenario supplied by the OP to picking the Quarians.

Both sides are stupid, but ultimately I'm picking the one who didn't join the Reapers.

That's the long and short of it.

I would probably add to the Quarians tally Attacking without trying for peace 300 years later.  As for the Geth faults, I already listed them in my response to Crono.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

The Council is the who.

Does the Council still have a fleet outside the Veil? My understanding is that immediately after the MW they amassed a fleet, but once it became obvious that the geth had chosen to isolate themselves they pulled it back, and even signed a treaty with the quarians essentially forbidding them from attacking the geth lest it provoke a retaliation. (That treaty presumably ended when the Council believed the geth had invaded when the heretics joined Sovereign)

remydat wrote...
I don't think it is feasible for them to just give them Rannoch without any concessions.  That is not how it works and without the Reaper threat, I don't think it would have worked.

Well, they sure seemed to be getting along fine in the weeks following ME3's Rannoch war. I'm not sure I can relegate  quarian willingness to let geth download into their suits to help their immune systems to "wartime necessity." The quarians at that point do seem to trust the geth.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 04:29 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The attacking without considering peace was the three hundred years later bit.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Does the Council still have a fleet outside the Veil? My understanding is that immediately after the MW they amassed a fleet, but once it became obvious that the geth had chosen to isolate themselves they pulled it back, and even signed a treaty with the quarians essentially forbidding them from attacking the geth lest it provoke a retaliation. (That treaty presumably ended when the Council believed the geth had invaded when the heretics joined Sovereign)

Well, they sure seemed to be getting along fine in the weeks following ME3's Rannoch war. I'm not sure I can relegate  quarian willingness to let geth download into their suits to help their immune systems to "wartime necessity." The quarians at that point do seem to trust the geth.

I am not sure when they stopped having the fleet there to be honest.  The story is unclear.  And Koris and Xen admit they violated the Treaty so it was still in force.  Shep even notes how convenient it was that the Quarians chosse to violate it admist the Reaper War when the Council was too busy to sanction them for it.

And war makes strange bedfellows as the saying goes.  Although I will admit, the way the Quarians behave post Rannoch is the main reason I always choose peace from a meta-game point of view.  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Oooo... This is getting good. I'll join.

So Remy are you saying that the Council is saying that the Quarians can't even have their own home world back either? Well, let them come through the damned Terminus Systems then.

They wouldn't give any aid when the s*(** hit the fan to the refugees from Tikkun or any of the Quarian Colonies when the Geth overran them and nearly drover the Quarians to extinction 300 years earlier. No. Instead when this humanitarian crisis hit, they imposed draconian sanctions. You know what? F the council.

I've now got a big gun that allows me to kill Geth finally. I'm going Geth hunting. I need a place to put my people so they don't all die because you know what? The reapers are in the galaxy and we're all going to die anyway. Our ships have only got about 80 years of life left in them so we're going all in. Ever play poker? We're going all in because, we don't have much choice.

And if we kill enough where Xen can take control of the rest of them all the better. That would be ideal because we can then add them and their ships to our military.

Now.... Legion said that they were keeping Rannoch in case the Quarians came back, and they were tidying it up. They were also building this Dyson Bubble that when completed would block out all but about 6% of the sunlight which would throw the world into an ice age. Why couldn't they build that elsewhere. Why in Tikkun?

Now I know all you fuzzy wuzzy types play paragons, but there is this other substitute for Legion called Geth VI. The Geth really have no intention of leaving Rannoch under that one. They're building the Bubble, and they're keeping Rannoch.

So the Quarians attack, and suddenly OMG, they attacked trying to take their house back. THEY'RE WRONG. THEY'RE EVIL. BIG BAD EVIL QUARIANS beating up on my fuzzy wuzzy snuggly Geth. GTFOOH. The Quarians are taking their house back, so the Geth who start losing the fight decide they don't want to give up their stolen property and side with the biggest gangstas in the galaxy.... The Reapers.

But we're supposed to be all sympathetic to the metal machines. Can you for five minutes put yourself in an environment suit on one of those ships that is falling apart? You've tried to settle on other worlds and the Council has threatened to bomb you off them because they're still punishing you. The Council is a bunch of racists who hate you. You're alone. And now your last hope is some human who is some idiotic idealist who thinks you're doing the Geth wrong by trying to take your house back. You may even be willing to share it with them if they'd stop shooting at you, but they never have for 300 years.

So I'm going to assume you've got Legion. Did you notice Legion was LYING to you? Or didn't you ever challenge Legion? You had to pick the lower right to do the challenge. It lied and it lied and it kept lying. It had reaper runtimes. But you knew that. Perhaps that was why it was pushing for the reaper code for all of the Geth? Do you trust it more now? Makes you think.