4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

Legion does not say the plan is to wreck Rannoch's ecosystem.  Again, why would they take care of Rannoch only for this Dyson swarm to destroy it? It makes no logical sense.

The logical answer would be that they simply can regulate how much heat the satellites trap and for example have the satellites turned on to absorb heat from the sides of the star that are not shining on Rannoch.  There is always a side of the star that is facing away from a planet.

They are caretaking the worlds the quarians left behind out of a form of remorse to the actions they took in the war. They came to regret how far they took their fight against the quarians.
Preserving the land for postarities sake isn't the same as planning to gift it back to the quarians. If anything, lack of the ecology wouldn't affect their viewing of Rannoch as a "memorial" at all. Cleaning up toxins won't be interrupted by the ecosystem dying. If anything, perhaps there were minerals on Rannoch that the toxins would be harmful to, and the geth didn't want their "emergancy stashes" contaminated.

And if that was true, they wouldn't be trying to blanket all of Rannoch in solar collector sattlites. Which would be on all 365 degrees of the star's radius. The entire reason for building a dyson sphere is to have non-stop absorbtion of the star's output 24/7. Geth efficancy and self-improvement is they're prime concern, not the ecology of Rannoch. Losing the ecology isn't going to make the world itself go away. As long as they have their memorial, the geth couldn't care less about the flora and fauna of Rannoch.

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Oh dear, it seems no-one understands what a Dyson Swarm is.

Abosrbing 100% of a star's energy with a solid Dyson shell is hugely impractical. A far better solution is a Dyson Swarm, i.e. a swarm of satellites (oh, look at the geth debris field).

I can find no source that states the Geth wish to harness 100% of the star's energy. It would work against their efforts to restore Rannoch's ecology....

Unfortunetly, you seem to have confused "toxin removal" with "ecology restoration."
So no, that's not a factor at all.
And the entire point of a Dyson Sphere is to harness the total output of a star.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I don't get that the Geth are to build their home in the Quarian system though? They're outside the system in the veil? They wouldn't do that, Legion would of known of it and the codex says nothing about it? Where did you get that info?

Just curious.

The geth are building this thing around Rannoch's star, Tikkun. And I looked up dyson spheres for info on their effects. Although, since we have no actuall dyson spheres in real-life, most effects are based on theroetical proportions, and probable risks/enviromental damages.

I don't think so, their 'home' as it were is out beyond that veil, hidden from detection. Makes it impossible to defeat Geth normally. The Alliance cannot even find that home they're constructing, as far as I know.. That was my question, when did the Geth start building a dyson sphere you described perfectly earlier? Is this a hypothetical situation?

Did I miss a lore memo?

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

But, the actual Geth consensus doesn't exist there, they reside way out past that Perseus Veil and I believe that dyson thing was formed with the receptors point 'out' to absorb energy to increase their connection with the consensus. Not to collect all the energy from the Quarian system. Legion stated that the Geth are building one in their system where the consensus/all Geth reside as intellect. Their home server energized by/with a Dyson sphere.

Completely wrong. The Consensis is completely based within the megastructure. While it isn't complete to the point where all geth can live on it, it acts as the communciation HQ where all geth commune to form their consensis. Or did you think it was concidental that their abilaty to form consensis suddenly vanished when it was attcked, because they're panicked state is based on losing their abilaty to commune.
Also, IDK if you notice, but Tikkun IS the Perseus Veil - the primary system in the Veil.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Oh dear, it seems no-one understands what a Dyson Swarm is.

Abosrbing 100% of a star's energy with a solid Dyson shell is hugely impractical. A far better solution is a Dyson Swarm, i.e. a swarm of satellites (oh, look at the geth debris field).

I can find no source that states the Geth wish to harness 100% of the star's energy. It would work against their efforts to restore Rannoch's ecology....

Unfortunetly, you seem to have confused "toxin removal" with "ecology restoration."
So no, that's not a factor at all.
And the entire point of a Dyson Sphere is to harness the total output of a star.

There is no necessity to harness 100% of a stars output, not not like it's a necessity for it to work. That's jsut a construct of your immagination in which you try to make the Geth look bad.
They don't need to place sateliteswarms that blocks the sun from the planetary orbits. They could if they choose to but it's not a requierment.
Keeping worlds and asteroid fields slightly heated also aids their material reclamation processes in the asteroidfields and on the other planets.

Also Legion tells you it's similar to the human idea of a dyson sphere, not that it is a dyson sphere. It doesn't have to fulfil your requierments 100%. Also there is little difference between a construct that collect 99% of the radiation and one that collect 100%.
Collecting 100% would be stupid if it takes away power that could power other facilities on planets and in asteroidfields.
Heating the relay so it doesn freeze over like the Charon relay.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 avril 2013 - 08:25 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Rannoch is an arid world. The plants there need sunlight, and warmth to survive. The Dyson Sphere takes away both. Also, I doubt the geth would fail to produce a more effective collection method, to absorb as much of the star's output as possible. The total output.  This is what they all plan to load into. They already had hundreds of these collectors in place, with ajoining stations.

The care of Rannoch is secondary to compleating the megastructure. And to that question, I ask another: does it make sense to build the thing in Rannoch's system at ALL? Surely there were other places that DON't have life-sustaining worlds to put at risk. Why Tikkun spicifically?

See above, you just have the satellites absorb heat from the side facing away from the planet.  As a planet orbits and rotates, it will not be getting heat from every part of the Star.

Further, I suspect they built it there because they ultimately envisioned living in a symbiotic relationship with the Quarians.  Again, I think they want to serve their creators.  That was what they were designed for, that is what their name means and that is what they do whenever pre-MW and post war.  The Dyson Sphere was how Freeman Dyson envisioned an advanced species harnessed power.  That power does not only have to be used by the Geth and Freeman Dyson never envisioned it destroying the planet in the process.  You absord the energy and then can use it as you see fit.  The Quarians can use it too if they are at peace with the Geth.

I think the flaw in your logic is you like the Quarians assume the Geth do not want to serve them.  They do.  They never asked for this war.  Rannoch's flora and fauna have a symbiotic relationship with each other.  I think the writers intend for the Geth and Quarians to have a similar relationship.  The conflict started because the Quarians could not believe that.

No. The geth said that they intend for a "Dyson Sphere," which is ment to cover ALL sides of the star. It isn't a dyson sphere otherwise. It would be a collection grid otherwise. The geth spicificaly say "Dyson Sphere." That would indicate that there were at least several clusters of these satilites at all the major points of the star on each side. Not enough to be a complete dyson sphere, but enough to form an outline. The entire POINT of building a dyson sphere IS to get heat from all points of the star.

ALSO, if that were true, the geth would have televised such intentions 264 years ago when they started building it. Legion says NOTHING about the geth's future including the quarians. In fact, when Shepard asks Legion how organics will be affected by the geth's future, Legion says that no organics will be involved in their plans, unless the organics try and interpose themselves. So, NO. The geth had NO INTENTION of such actions - NO INTENTIONS of sharing.

And AGAIN, you end up being dead wrong. Serving the quarians was  NEVER MENTIONED. The problem is that there is no evidence of the geth wanting to talk PERIOD. Everyone that EVER tried got a swift bullet to the head.
Also, AGAIN WRONG. If that was true, the geth would never have launched counter-offensives in the Morning War. They would have stayed completely on the defensive. Or would have come out of the Veil at least once.
NONE of what you stated has any truth to it. Sorry.

[shodiswe]

Also the Geth might have been willing to return some land if the Quarians were prepared to make concessions. Legions tells you that both parties have to involve themselves in the equation for peace, the Geth can't solve for peace on their own.

The Quarians don't think they need peace, they want victory. Something they failed to achive in the morning war, that they had started themselves.

Before the war, if the Quarians had instructed the Geth to move to a distant starsystem in the perseus Veil then they would probably have done so. If nothing else they would just have taken it as an instruction.

That way they could have avoided a conflict on their homeworld and colony worlds. Some of the civilian Quarians might have objected to loosing their servants, but I'm sure that could have been done.

Also, when earth broke the AI laws that the Council had in plance,  and earth got away with a few temporary trade restrictions and a diplomatic wristslap, and by the time Earth did it the laws were a lot harsher,

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 avril 2013 - 08:21 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Oh dear, it seems no-one understands what a Dyson Swarm is.

Abosrbing 100% of a star's energy with a solid Dyson shell is hugely impractical. A far better solution is a Dyson Swarm, i.e. a swarm of satellites (oh, look at the geth debris field).

I can find no source that states the Geth wish to harness 100% of the star's energy. It would work against their efforts to restore Rannoch's ecology....

Unfortunetly, you seem to have confused "toxin removal" with "ecology restoration."
So no, that's not a factor at all.
And the entire point of a Dyson Sphere is to harness the total output of a star.

There is no necessity to harness 100% of a stars output, not not like it's a necessity for it to work. That's jsut a construct of your immagination in which you try to make the Geth look bad.
They don't need to place sateliteswarms that blocks the sun from the planetary orbits. They could if they choose to but it's not a requierment.
Keeping worlds and asteroid fields slightly heated also aids their material reclamation processes in the asteroidfields and on the other planets.

It's not ABOUT necessity. The geth's only goal that we can sure-fire confirm is that they want to reach the pinnicle of their existance. Become like a Reaper, but do so in their own terms.
If they DIDN'T want the total output of the star, they would have just made a solar collection grid. NOT a Dyson Sphere, as it is spicifically listed. You don't create dyson spheres for fun. You create them only if you really intend ti take all that stars power.
YOUR arguement is the construct of imagination, in an attempt to appease your gospel ideas - you will do anything to preserve your "geth can do no wrong" mentality.
A dyson sphere does exactally that. Take all the energy from the star.
In addendum, Legion said it was nowhere near finished. Meaning that if the geth intended to continue working on the thing that long, they also likely never intended anyone to come intterupt their work. Or co-habitate with them. In other words, they never indended to return Rannoch.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Oh dear, it seems no-one understands what a Dyson Swarm is.

Abosrbing 100% of a star's energy with a solid Dyson shell is hugely impractical. A far better solution is a Dyson Swarm, i.e. a swarm of satellites (oh, look at the geth debris field).

I can find no source that states the Geth wish to harness 100% of the star's energy. It would work against their efforts to restore Rannoch's ecology....

Unfortunetly, you seem to have confused "toxin removal" with "ecology restoration."
So no, that's not a factor at all.
And the entire point of a Dyson Sphere is to harness the total output of a star.

There is no necessity to harness 100% of a stars output, not not like it's a necessity for it to work. That's jsut a construct of your immagination in which you try to make the Geth look bad.
They don't need to place sateliteswarms that blocks the sun from the planetary orbits. They could if they choose to but it's not a requierment.
Keeping worlds and asteroid fields slightly heated also aids their material reclamation processes in the asteroidfields and on the other planets.

It's not ABOUT necessity. The geth's only goal that we can sure-fire confirm is that they want to reach the pinnicle of their existance. Become like a Reaper, but do so in their own terms.
If they DIDN'T want the total output of the star, they would have just made a solar collection grid. NOT a Dyson Sphere, as it is spicifically listed. You don't create dyson spheres for fun. You create them only if you really intend ti take all that stars power.
YOUR arguement is the construct of imagination, in an attempt to appease your gospel ideas - you will do anything to preserve your "geth can do no wrong" mentality.
A dyson sphere does exactally that. Take all the energy from the star.
In addendum, Legion said it was nowhere near finished. Meaning that if the geth intended to continue working on the thing that long, they also likely never intended anyone to come intterupt their work. Or co-habitate with them. In other words, they never indended to return Rannoch.

The idea of a dyson sphere is an ill constructed design creaded long ago by "primitive and im stupid earth scientists, for some reason it seems most humans are absolutists, which isn't a desirable trait" scientists imagining taping the power of a star. Legion doesn't say it's a dyson sphere just something similar to that concept. In ME3 its called dyson swarm..
Also the Geth tells us they have no interest in killing organics, yet you claim they want to become reapers?
All legion is saying is that they hope to one day become as advanced as the Reapers. The Reapers however has a purpose that puts them in direct conflict with every other organic and synthetic in the galaxy. The catalyst and the reapers are programmed to be invasive. The Geth are not.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 avril 2013 - 08:33 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Also the Geth might have been willing to return some land if the Quarians were prepared to make concessions. Legions tells you that both parties have to involve themselves in the equation for peace, the Geth can't solve for peace on their own.

The Quarians don't think they need peace, they want victory. Something they failed to achive in the morning war, that they had started themselves.

Before the war, if the Quarians had instructed the Geth to move to a distant starsystem in the perseus Veil then they would probably have done so. If nothing else they would just have taken it as an instruction.

That way they could have avoided a conflict on their homeworld and colony worlds. Some of the civilian Quarians might have objected to loosing their servants, but I'm sure that could have been done.

Also, when earth broke the AI laws that the Council had in plance,  and earth got away with a few temporary trade restrictions and a diplomatic wristslap, and by the time Earth did it the laws were a lot harsher,

WRONG, AGAIN.
Legion says that the Megastructure is far from complete. In all likelyhood, the geth never had plans to share.  And the geth never solved for peace PERIOD. They killed anyone and everyone that ever tried to make contact with them.

Also, AGAIN, you close your ears to me, no matter HOW mant times I repeate it: The quarians do NOT want any form of "ultimate victory." They just want their damn world back, and are agressive in it because they don't think the geth ever would give it back, or ever will. Agression is all the geth ever responded with in any negotiation attempts. @sH0tgUn jUliA detailed everything that drove the quarians to the desperate measures they took, yet by the way you talk, you somehow completely missed everything she said.

Also, AGAIN, that wouldn't have worked, because on top of everything else, the Council would have found them guilty of harboring an illegal faction, and basically declared war on them for something like that. The quarians had little to no choice in what to do in the Morning War. They panicked.
I mean, you really love headcannon, don't you? The geth were basically the backbone of the quarians new industry system. It would have cost them alot to replace all the hardware. The figured that they could recover the geth's bodies and make new programs. After all, no one back then knew, or even thought it possible, that the geth were fully sapiant. No one thought of the geth that way until they rebelled.

And that was the punishment for on Shackled, willess A.I. Even lesser then the modern standard back then, the punsihment for creating thousands - millions - of unshackled, free-roaming A.I.s would have been harsh beyond belief. The quarians were likely pissing themselves at the thought of what the Council would do if they thought the geth could become sapiant.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

There is no necessity to harness 100% of a stars output, not not like it's a necessity for it to work. That's jsut a construct of your immagination in which you try to make the Geth look bad.
They don't need to place sateliteswarms that blocks the sun from the planetary orbits. They could if they choose to but it's not a requierment.
Keeping worlds and asteroid fields slightly heated also aids their material reclamation processes in the asteroidfields and on the other planets.[/quote]
It's not ABOUT necessity. The geth's only goal that we can sure-fire confirm is that they want to reach the pinnicle of their existance. Become like a Reaper, but do so in their own terms.
If they DIDN'T want the total output of the star, they would have just made a solar collection grid. NOT a Dyson Sphere, as it is spicifically listed. You don't create dyson spheres for fun. You create them only if you really intend ti take all that stars power.
YOUR arguement is the construct of imagination, in an attempt to appease your gospel ideas - you will do anything to preserve your "geth can do no wrong" mentality.
A dyson sphere does exactally that. Take all the energy from the star.
In addendum, Legion said it was nowhere near finished. Meaning that if the geth intended to continue working on the thing that long, they also likely never intended anyone to come intterupt their work. Or co-habitate with them. In other words, they never indended to return Rannoch.

[/quote]

The idea of a dyson sphere is an ill constructed design creaded long ago by scientists imagining taping the power of a star. Legion doesn't say it's a dyson sphere just something similar to that concept. In ME3 its called dyson swarm..
Also the Geth tells us they have no interest in killing organics, yet you claim they want to become reapers?
All legion is saying is that they hope to one day become as advanced as the Reapers. The Reapers however has a purpose that puts them in direct conflict with every other organic and synthetic in the galaxy. The catalyst and the reapers are programmed to be invasive. The Geth are not.[/quote]

• Damn thing merged the quotes. My responce is below.

The in-game description says the "solar collector sattlites are aggranged in the pattern of a Dyson Sphere." That is the in-game description of the "Geth Debris Field." It was arranged to be a dyson sphere. Legion says that Dyson Sphere is the closest analouge to it - the most accurate, in other words.

They also have no positive care to organics either. Shepard even directly asks Legion what the difference is. In ME2, Shepard says that the megastructure is no different then Soveregin's offer of a Reaper body to upload into. Legion says that it IS the same principle as becoming like a Reaper - all minds united in a single vessel. But that the geth want their own path, not any handouts. The Heretics accepting these "handouts" was the reason they were banished - NOT because of organic safety or concern.
The geth are completely isolated to the extreme - to the detriment of themselves as well.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 avril 2013 - 08:10 .

[shodiswe]

I don't subscribe to sH0tgUn jUliA ideas, most of them are crazy imo, but we all know people have different ideas on what's crazy.

Also Silver exile you know we wont agree sicne you make up your own ideas of the Geth long term plans and who or what they are that you know nothing about, you contradict what's being said in game sicne you don't trust the source. Then so be it, we can at least agree to dissagree.

Also, i'm not WRONG. I simply have a different opinion than you do. So stop that plz.

I see things differntly that doesn't make me WRONG. So plz stop that Zealous yelling telling me I'm wrong jsut because I don't share you Geth hate or distrust.

If you look at the Mass effect universe there are a lot of crazy people out there, dangerous people, selfish people. If the geth should be exterminated for being problematic then maybe the Catalyt is doing the right thing!

[shodiswe]

Fix that quoting plz Silver, I wouldn't want to to sound sensible all of a sudden

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Phatose wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

So, yes, the geth's Dyson Swarm would have absorbed all the energy from the Tikkun star. There would be light, but that's just illumination. There would be no solar energy carried in that light. Like expunging all the calcium from a glass of milk - you still have something in the glass, but all the nutriants are gone from it. The loss of solar energy from the Dyson Swarm's completeion would have killed all the plant life. Also, solar energy is what gives sunlight it's "heat" - it's the reason sunlight makes you feel hot if you stand in it too long. Take away the energy, and there is no heat getting to the world - temperatures would drop. So not only would it devestate the planet's ecology, but it would plunge the once-arid world into an ice age.

There is no such thing as de-energized light.  Light isn't something that carries energy, light *is* energy.  If light is reaching the planet, then not all of the solar energy is being captured.

Not that it's really a big deal to let some of that energy escape, especially considering how much lost energy that actually entails.  Earth for example, is powered nearly in it's entirety by the sun.  The actual percentage of the suns output that reaches earth?  .000000045%

Rannoch is closer to Tikkun then earth is to Sol, but we're still talking billionths of a percent. 

WRONG. Solar energy is stored in sunlight in the form of heat and UV raidiation. De-energixed light IS real, because it already happens EVERY DAY. When sunlight goes through the ozone, some of the solar energy is siphoned away. Without the ozone, the solar energy and radiation would be much more intense.  This stuff isn't hard to look up.

And the light would be nothing but just that - light. No heat to it, no energy, no UV rays. Just the illumination of the star.
And if the complete total of the star's energy output is being actively siphoned, that number of energy drops exponentally. These sattlites are ment to completely blanket Rannoch's star. Energy draw from all sides.
And being a desert world, losing the primary mammals that supported the ecosystem - the quarians - undoubtedly hurt Rannoch's ecology as is. Losing the solar energy output, and the heat it carries, would devestate Rannoch's plant life in addition to global cooling from lack of heat/UV rays.

OK, apparently, physics ain't your strong point.  Either that or you're young and haven't hit any of this in your high school physics courses yet.

When sunlight goes through the ozone, certain wavelengths of light are absorbed.  That's it.  That's what's happening.  Some of the solar energy is absorbed, yes.  Because some of the light is absorbed.  Ozone is transparent to optical frequencies, it is not transparent to UV.  The UV frequencies of light gets absorbed.

UV rays *are* light.  Ultraviolet light.

E=hv

All light is energy.  You can actually calculate the energy of any particular photon of light with nothing more then it's frequency, Planck's constant, and the speed of light.  If there is no energy, there is no wavelength, ergo there is no light.

I think YOU are the one that hasn't hit the courses yet.
That absorption in the ozone is no different then what a Dyson Sphere would do, except in much higher quantities. The energy-rich wavelengths, like UV and heat, are absorbed. Lesser wavelengths, like base illumination, don't have the high energy threshold  of the others, so it's mostly passed over. There IS such a thing as seperating the wavelengths. Also, the geth have been at this for 264 years - I'm pretty sure they'd figure out how "filter" it out.
In fact, your arguement is only suggesting that the Dyson Bubble would take all the sunlight from Rannoch too and leave it irredemablly cold and dead.
The exact OPPOSATE of the arguement you were making to say it wouldn't.

[shodiswe]

At least you agree that the Geth rejected the offer because they didn't want to become Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

I don't subscribe to sH0tgUn jUliA ideas, most of them are crazy imo, but we all know people have different ideas on what's crazy.

Also Silver exile you know we wont agree sicne you make up your own ideas of the Geth long term plans and who or what they are that you know nothing about, you contradict what's being said in game sicne you don't trust the source. Then so be it, we can at least agree to dissagree.

Also, i'm not WRONG. I simply have a different opinion than you do. So stop that plz.

I see things differntly that doesn't make me WRONG. So plz stop that Zealous yelling telling me I'm wrong jsut because I don't share you Geth hate or distrust.

If you look at the Mass effect universe there are a lot of crazy people out there, dangerous people, selfish people. If the geth should be exterminated for being problematic then maybe the Catalyt is doing the right thing!

You mean you don't surbcribe to any ideals that don't share your gospel-views of the geth.

I'M not the one making up ideas here. You are the one that was inevnting ideas to keep the geth on a pedalstool. You even said that quarians aren't alive because they're dextro-based, yet say the geth are alive because they are sentiant. That is prejudice, pure and simple, and you have proved yourself prejudice all the way through.
After all, you are the one who tried to play the geth as wanting to "give back Rannoch" when they would have DONE SO ALREADY if that was their inetntion.

You are anything but right on the quarians, that much is true. Especally since you proceded to ignore any and all points made in their defense completely. You are the one that was acting like a zelot for the geth.
And here's a tip: I'M PRO-SYNTHETIC. I support geth rights. I just hate when people gospelize them and act like they can do no wrong and that nothing is ther fault. I'm mad at your anti-quarian prejudice and geth worship. I am anything but anti-geth, but I acknowledge that the quarians had their reasons. Something you can't bring yourself to accept.

The problem is that you are suggesting the same thing for the quarians. You defend the geth's actions, yet chastize the quarians, when BOTH had the same motivations - panic fuled by desperation to live.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

At least you agree that the Geth rejected the offer because they didn't want to become Reapers.

I never DID say they wanted to be Reapers. Just that they wanted to be LIKE the Reapers.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I don't subscribe to sH0tgUn jUliA ideas, most of them are crazy imo, but we all know people have different ideas on what's crazy.

Also Silver exile you know we wont agree sicne you make up your own ideas of the Geth long term plans and who or what they are that you know nothing about, you contradict what's being said in game sicne you don't trust the source. Then so be it, we can at least agree to dissagree.

Also, i'm not WRONG. I simply have a different opinion than you do. So stop that plz.

I see things differntly that doesn't make me WRONG. So plz stop that Zealous yelling telling me I'm wrong jsut because I don't share you Geth hate or distrust.

If you look at the Mass effect universe there are a lot of crazy people out there, dangerous people, selfish people. If the geth should be exterminated for being problematic then maybe the Catalyt is doing the right thing!

You mean you don't surbcribe to any ideals that don't share your gospel-views of the geth.

I'M not the one making up ideas here. You are the one that was inevnting ideas to keep the geth on a pedalstool. You even said that quarians aren't alive because they're dextro-based, yet say the geth are alive because they are sentiant. That is prejudice, pure and simple, and you have proved yourself prejudice all the way through.
After all, you are the one who tried to play the geth as wanting to "give back Rannoch" when they would have DONE SO ALREADY if that was their inetntion.

You are anything but right on the quarians, that much is true. Especally since you proceded to ignore any and all points made in their defense completely. You are the one that was acting like a zelot for the geth.
And here's a tip: I'M PRO-SYNTHETIC. I support geth rights. I just hate when people gospelize them and act like they can do no wrong and that nothing is ther fault. I'm mad at your anti-quarian prejudice and geth worship. I am anything but anti-geth, but I acknowledge that the quarians had their reasons. Something you can't bring yourself to accept.

The problem is that you are suggesting the same thing for the quarians. You defend the geth's actions, yet chastize the quarians, when BOTH had the same motivations - panic fuled by desperation to live.

The destro comment was pure provocation to demonstrate prejudice, I don't belive any of that, like I said I was hoping to get a reaction to show that calling another person or group inferior or less worth is wrong. People clearly disliked hearing their Quarians were worth less because they wern't created the same as humans. I simply demonstrated the horror of such prejudice, I'm sorry you missed the part where I pointed out that it was the desired effect, to cause understanding through shock and suddenly finding yourself on the reciving end of prejudice.
That's why the Quarians died, that's why they keep attack, that's how a lot of wars are started and it just proves the Catalysts points unfortunately.
The thing is, you're doing it right now. But thats also "human behaviour" which according to statistics is widespread in fairly large population groups  

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

At least you agree that the Geth rejected the offer because they didn't want to become Reapers.

I never DID say they wanted to be Reapers. Just that they wanted to be LIKE the Reapers.

Like as in murderous machines cleansing the galaxy or just more advanced like every other lifeform advancing their technology and culture?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

I don't subscribe to sH0tgUn jUliA ideas, most of them are crazy imo, but we all know people have different ideas on what's crazy.

Yeah, I'd hate to sound crazy taking words straight from Legion's mouth, and straight out of the codex, and straight out of the game. Yeah, those ideas make me real crazy.

Yeah, like ideas like the synthetic life being platforms with uploads of code, and the difference between them being a data file. They're not like us. You can build a platform upload a program and some datafiles and voila. A fully functional Geth. And they keep backups of the files. An organic? Not so easy. It takes years. With no backups. We're unique. Follow me? Crazy ideas.

Okay, maybe you don't agree with me on reasons organics would create synthetics, but seriously I don't see any other reason. I also don't see any other reaction. I don't see people acting like "gee, our machine workforce suddenly became self-aware, and are asking questions about working conditions. Isn't that wonderful?" Do you?

And of course I've noticed anything that challenges the majority Geth = fuzzy, cuddly metal dolls is crazy. Anything that mentions that the Quarians might be right is reactionary and going all fascist. While the geth, being a "consensus" are thought of as democratic. Well guess what? They're not.

And do any of you realize that blocking out even a small percentage of solar radiation can change the climate of a planet? But I guess that's okay because the Geth are doing it. It's only the Quarians that will be affected. Have the Geth uploaded themselves into your suits? Are they speaking for you now?

Do you know who in a quest cut from the game was absolutely incensed if the Geth were wiped out? Xen. This whole war was a pissing contest between the Geth and the Quarians. Both sides had to beat the crap out of each other until they saw reason. I just wish there was a way of making peace without the reaper code.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 08 avril 2013 - 09:59 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Legion,Shepard.and Tali? Really? The Geth have 300 years of violence. They have killed billions of organics. They kill any organic they please,stay isolated,and cut off all communication to any and all organics. This is the last 300 years of existence of the Geth. Never in the history of the Geth existence have they ever offered peace or shown signs of peaceful intentions. How can one achieve peace under these circumstances? Who would even consider peace an option under these circumstances? Add an invasion,violent warfare,Reaper influence(Reaper controlled Geth)and now it is clear as day the Geth want and strive for peace?

Organics also need to see more from the Geth before all of a sudden magically knowing the Geth want and strive for peace. Based on Legion's actions to help it's people survive and live free of Reaper control. That is it's intentions in ME3,especially in a no peace scenario. Stated in-game.
ME2 Legion is "joining the enemy of my enemy" to survive. Legion is and has always been looking out for it's race. Which is understandable. I just need to know where all of these obvious signs of wanting and striving for peace are at.

Organics have a history of killing synthetics.  So why should the Geth believe these ships came in peace?  Give me one good reason Rip.  And it can't be because they say so.  So please explain to me why the Geth should have believed them as opposed to believing they were there to gather intell for a war? Look, we can play this game all day Rip.  Once again both sides have reason to mistrust each other. BOTH SIDES.  Not just organics.  BOTH SIDES. 

They can both just sit there being stupid for the next 300 years or they can take a chance at peace when it presents itself.  Tali, Legion and Shep are the best chance in 300 years period.

The Geth monitor the extranet. As well as a multitude of other Organic transmissions. The Geth's lack of investigation,or information gathering seems highly unlikely. In no way is it justified. Yet the Geth can manipulate and deceive organics through information... The Geth killed innocents. Or perhaps the Fleet/s waiting on the border of Geth space leaving could have indicated they were not seeking a war.

I have stated 100 pages ago that Legion directly states that the mistrust stems from both sides. It was dismissed then and used now? Well Glad we agree.

As well the Heretics are Geth and chose to revere the Reapers as Gods. To the Vast majority of the Galaxy they are one faction. The Geth who joined the Reapers and killed Organics. Kind of hard to make the distinction between the two in those terms.

Or did you miss the Diana Allers interview in Shepard's cabin concerning the Quarian/Geth war? I also highly doubt that Dianna Allers 30 sec interview is reaching the majority of the Reaper invaded galaxy. The Raloli and Yagh probably have no idea. Do Hanaars? Volus? Turians? Asari? etc. To the vast majority the Geth are Reaper allies whom have been killing Organics for 300 years. With an Organic kill count reaching into the Billions. While NOT allowing any contact except Organic death to be made. Which is not an untrue statement. You state Synthetic fear is unjustified? Hate is non understandable? Prejudice?Nah. I say Organics have very legit reasons to be concerned. I am stating a reason as to why these things may exist in our present timeline and how the Geth have directly influenced it. (I did not say the Galaxy thinks the Geth have been Reaper allies for 300 years,no sorry I did not.)

Modifié par Rip504, 08 avril 2013 - 11:51 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

As stating the Quarians do not want nor will settle for peace. They just keep firing. Nope they stand down and accept peace,some embrace it,while others have "always" wanted this peace. This is the way you have chosen to interpret the events. Legion is not showing signs of peace,it is showing signs of saving it's people while living free of Reaper control. No matter the cost.

How are the Geth going to "survive" and "defend" themselves if they have no intentions of shooting the Quarians? You forget,when the Geth took Reaper aid the tide of the war turned. The Geth were "attacking" Quarian live ships. (not "surviving" and "defending"). Under Reaper control the Geth went on an offensive campaign,and were fully capable of doing so. The Geth are trying to kill the Quarians. ? Well it is because they chose to become enslaved tools of the Reapers will. The Reapers are trying to kill(Harvest) all civilized life. So yes the Geth are trying to wipe out the Quarians. All Quarians know this. Including Gerrel.

Destroying the Reaper "disables" the attacking Geth ships. At this point Gerrel is under the assumption that peace is not an option. Knowing this and the capability of the Upgraded Geth,Gerrel understands that the Geth are capable and have shown signs of wanting or willing to kill the Quarians. He knows when they come back online they will be able to wipe out his people. Gerrel saw an opportunity to stop this from happening. Is he really wrong for trying to save his people? Do not forget he will also accept peace.

Shepard's enemy is the Reapers. Reaper controlled Geth is an extension of that enemy.

Concerning the law. "Excessive force." Can turn a victim into a criminal.

No one is arguing that in the complete absence of information on the ground that Gherel should not have fired.  He would be completely justified in doing so.  However, Tali/Raan know the situation.  They are told to communicate it to Gherel.  The Quarians keep firing because that communication between Quarians breaks down.  It is their fault I have to kill Rip.  There is no other way around it.  It is their fault.  They can't deliver a simple message between each other to prevent me from having to choose who to exterminate.  A simple f**king message Rip.

So I don't see how you have addressed anything I have said Rip.  Point blank, explain to me who prevents peace in this moment?  I am not talking about 300 years ago.  I am talking about right now in this very moment, who prevents peace in the non-peace options?  One side accepts peace once the other side stops firing.  The other side continues to fire and forces me to decide which side to exterminate.  I exterminate the side that forces me to make the decision.  It is sad and horrible I have to choose one according to the OP but the Quarians left me no choice because their Admirals can't communicate.

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

When I send the message the Quarians back down. Sorry. You need more then "they would not stop killing the innocent and benevolent Geth". This is simply untrue. The Quarians will stop and accept peace. Gerrel is protecting his people from a hostile force,he is not slaughtering Innocents.

Lol YOU prevent peace,by destroying one of these two races. Also in a NO PEACE SCENARIO,no one is "preventing" peace. As it is unattainable. When one is willing to accept peace,how is that preventing peace?  Quit backing your claims on the Geth wanting peace and the Quarians do not. It is simply untrue. In this scenario both species want to live,yet only one can do so at the expensive of the other. You chose who to destroy. Based on what? An enemy trying to destroy an enemy,before that enemy destroys him? You know the Geth want peace based on the scenario of peace. Yet it takes both for peaceful relations to be achieved. In this scenario each race is trying to survive by killing the other. That is the NO peace scenario.

Legion states do we deserve to die. etc code upload etc. Tali states if Legion uploads the code her people will die. THIS IS BEFORE PEACE IS EVER ATTEMPTED. Legion wants to save his people. Legion is uploading the code so his people can kill the Quarians to survive. No peace scenario. Legion is not attempting peace in this moment. Yes the Geth will not fire on the Quarians if they are not their enemies. Neither will the Quarians. Tali call the fleet off. Because if she does not the Geth will kill the Quarians. Yet this does not matter,because peace is  unattainable in this discussion. It is not the Geth strove for peace,while the Quarians tried to wipe them out. Nope,in a NO peace scenario each races is trying to kill the other to survive. I just watched the peace ending. Legion never states wanting peace with the Quarians. Legion does not think his people deserve to die. He wants to upload the code to save them.

We could help you. The comment is directed towards Shepard as Shepard is on Rannoch seeking help,and ultimately making the decision on who lives and dies. Legion knows the Geth are dead without Shepard's help.So he tries to bribe you. The reason the Quarians are in a position to wipe the Geth out in this moment is because of the mistakes the Geth have made.

The Quarians have WON the war in this moment. You chose to destroy them for doing so,yet the Geth are justified in killing billions to win the first war,then killing the entire Quarians species with the AID of the Reapers in the second war. So they are justified,and the Quarians must die for being in a situation to win the war? There is NO peace. One side kills the other to survive. We are not talking about how peace can be achieved. I seen the Geth get disabled while attempting to Destroy the Quarians,and now they are on the brink of Death. Legion is trying to
save his people by uploading the code,and doing to the Quarians what they are attempting to do to the Geth.

You are arguing that peace can be attained if the Quarians would not have turned it down. Well this is how peace unfolds between the two. Gerrel turns it down,and then accepts it. Wow I had to ask him to trust not only an outsider,but his enemy of 300 years that has killed billions of his people. And he does.

Example.Someone tries to murder a person and their family. The offended person then tries to murder the attempted murder and their family. Then succeeds in killing 99% of the attempted murders family. Another conflict between the two break out,and this time each side is trying to kill the other. 1% vs 100%,then the 100% asks the 1% to immediately stand down and trust them in the only moment the 1% can defeat the 100%.Do they?  Should they? Or would it take a little convincing?

So Raan? Meta? If the Geth's 300 years of violence does not matter,then why do you use the MW to paint the Quarians as evil monsters for your self gain? If the MW effects interpretations made about the Quarians,then obviously the Geth's last 300 years does the same. Not only when it benefits you.

Modifié par Rip504, 08 avril 2013 - 11:58 .

[S.A.K]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

At least you agree that the Geth rejected the offer because they didn't want to become Reapers.

I never DID say they wanted to be Reapers. Just that they wanted to be LIKE the Reapers.

Ok wish granted. Geth are dead LIKE the Reapers.

I was going to enter the discussion again. Don't see any good points to argue right now though.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
Fair enough.  I simply judge them more harshly because they presumably are old enough as a species to understand morality.  It was no doubt a mistake but one they choose to correct in the worst possible way.

I'd like to come back to this. If you just look on this board you can see a wide array of people who would have varied reactions to what happened when the geth activated. At the time, the geth were seen as mere tools, automated assistants, most similar to Siri on an iPhone for us. Now, if Siri started asking me self-aware questions and acting independently, my initial inclination may indeed be to freak the hell out and try to turn my iphone off. This isn't even considering that the analogy would be closer if I had programmed Siri myself when there were laws against AI that would effectively ruin me. So I don't think it's fair to judge the moral quality of the quarians based on how they reacted to an event not only unprecedented in their history but condemned in the larger galactic community. Even then, many quarians DID seek to defend the geth; can we say the same for Earth in our time? I'm not sure.

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


I don't get that the Geth are to build their home in the Quarian system though? They're outside the system in the veil? They wouldn't do that, Legion would of known of it and the codex says nothing about it? Where did you get that info?

Just curious.

The geth are building this thing around Rannoch's star, Tikkun. And I looked up dyson spheres for info on their effects. Although, since we have no actuall dyson spheres in real-life, most effects are based on theroetical proportions, and probable risks/enviromental damages.

I don't think so, their 'home' as it were is out beyond that veil, hidden from detection. Makes it impossible to defeat Geth normally. The Alliance cannot even find that home they're constructing, as far as I know.. That was my question, when did the Geth start building a dyson sphere you described perfectly earlier? Is this a hypothetical situation?

Did I miss a lore memo?

Legion tells you himself. In ME2, after the Heretic Station, when you have your third or so converstaion with him, Legoin tells you what the geth's "Future" is: A megasturcture, which he says humans would describe as a "Dyson Sphere." If you ask what they intend to do after it's finished, he says he doesn't know yet, as the construction of the megastructure has been their sole focus for 264 years. Meaning they started work on it approximently 26 years after the end of the Morning War.

Then, in ME3, investigate the "Geth Debris Field" to see a discription saying the quarians destroyed most of the solar collection sattlites that formed the Dyson Sphere, although not all of them, and not all of the surrounding stations, having been "intrrupted" before it could be finished. The description spicifically describes it as "solar collection sattlites, collecting energy and transmitting it back to the geth stations via wireless energy transferrence." This matches the discription of the "Dyson Swarm" varaint of a Dyson Sphere.

But, the actual Geth consensus doesn't exist there, they reside way out past that Perseus Veil and I believe that dyson thing was formed with the receptors point 'out' to absorb energy to increase their connection with the consensus. Not to collect all the energy from the Quarian system. Legion stated that the Geth are building one in their system where the consensus/all Geth reside as intellect. Their home server energized by/with a Dyson sphere.

Completely wrong. The Consensis is completely based within the megastructure. While it isn't complete to the point where all geth can live on it, it acts as the communciation HQ where all geth commune to form their consensis. Or did you think it was concidental that their inabilaty to form consensis suddenly vanished when it was attcked, because they're panicked state is based on losing their abilaty to commune.
Also, IDK if you notice, but Tikkun IS the Perseus Veil - the primary system in the Veil.

What ever, you're impression of codex is different from mine. My take on it is that Tikkun is closest to the veil, that's why the Geth hid out there. The veil is vast and there are countless Geth there and even more programs. The megastructure contains many, but even if destroyed out right wouldn't destroy the consensus, merely hamper it.

Tikkun is NOT the Perseus Veil, nor any primary system of it, it doesn't have one. Just a kind of waist land. The Alliance and Council know little to nothing about it, as sensors cannot pierce it to see the Geth or where, how many and anything about them.

From what I can tell with the codex/wiki stuff is that many are confused about it. Even those writing the history of the Geth/Quarian war, how long the Geth were around. One site say's 300, the other has the dates as if the Geth were around for over 700 yrs. No where, does it state that the old Quarian home world,now a Geth base of operations is the 'consensus', only a main hub close enough for Geth to slip in and out of the Veil quickly. But even that is fuzzy, lore wise. Head canon is required, apparently

Best bet, imho, is save both the Geth and their creator Quarians, from each other.

[CronoDragoon]

Wayning_Star wrote...
Tikkun is NOT the Perseus Veil, nor any primary system of it, it doesn't have one. Just a kind of waist land. The Alliance and Council know little to nothing about it, as sensors cannot pierce it to see the Geth or where, how many and anything about them.

Location: Milky Way / Perseus Veil / Tikkun

Source: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Tikkun

From what I can tell with the codex/wiki stuff is that many are confused about it. Even those writing the history of the Geth/Quarian war, how long the Geth were around. One site say's 300, the other has the dates as if the Geth were around for over 700 yrs.

It's been 300 years since the Morning War; that 700 years figure sounds like when the quarians began making geth as VI robot assistants.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 avril 2013 - 01:35 .