4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

edit: deleted for errors on my part....

I've found that problem with the geth and Rannoch. The codex and my in game memories are in conflict.

The Geth hide out in the Perseus Veil, but their acquired home world has a relay in it.. makes sense.

Tikkun seems to be on the outer rim, what ever that is, according to the codex, confused me how the PV can not be scanned but now we know that the Quarians home world is there and it's now, and always has been the Geth hide out..with a relay in system. I never realized that, for some reason, it seemed really stupid to have a relay in your hiding place, to avoid others, namely organics from attacking you?

I have to wonder tho, how can there be a relay IN or PAST the PV if it cannot be scanned and isn't explored?

(reminder: be sure to save both Geth and Quarians, broker peace. Don't forget!!)
[/quote]
Geth space is the Perseus Veil. There are likely more systems in the Veil, but the core system is the one with the Relay in it - the Tikkun system. But again, if the geth don't ever intend to leave the Veil, WHY do they need the Megastructure to be in Tikkun. It would make more sense to cordon Tikkun as a memorial system if they didn't want to hurt the system by building a Dyson Sphere.

Also, the geth armada tended to be on guard around it. The geth don't get tired, so the fleets guarding the relay never need to take breaks. Non-stop guarding of a Relay by an army that doesn't know what fatauge means tends to disuade anyone casually trying to attack. The quarians didn't attack until they had a "viral flash-bang" to stun them.

Also, the geth were exposed to have several systems besides the Perseus Veil. The Far Rim, for example. Also, several systems in the Pheniox Massing, Sentry Omega, and Hades Nexus are past the Geth Border. Although, wheather this is True Geth space, or Heretic space, isn't confirmed.
Look at this Galaxy map.
images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120502081343/masseffect/fr/images/9/92/Mass_Effect_3_Galaxy_Map.jpg
The Far Rim and Perseus Veil are certinly Ture Geth space. The others - Sentry Omega (Virmire) and Pheniox Massing (Heretic HQ) are Heretc Space. Regardless, the point is that, based on Relay maps, you'd basically have to get past Haestrom and the geth patrols to get to Rannoch.
[/quote]
Oh and yeah, maybe I think yes, but no, maybe they do hide in plain sight?

Nah, the Geth are minority in the MEU. They'd not stand a chance on the basis of a mass relay within their home system. The Alliance could send Ai ships with plenty of Geth cleaning agents aboard. That fact remains that the relay in their system ruins the idea of them hiding out in the PV. A total wash out on the writers side. Only the catalyst can remain hidden in plain sight. The Geth are too 'in your face' and that's asking for trouble from all organics concerned.

Besides if the Normandy can get in there, then anyone could, with enough encouragement they would. This would of happened way before any reaperships came into being, as the Geth/Quarian snafu had been around for 3 to 7 hundred years.. ;]..

Its funny to me that I didn't catch the facts of it with the playing of the game with Legion and all tho, had my brain locked on stun with the idea that Geth survive by remaining aloof and illusive, well hidden from organics in the unexplored PV with no way to get there or find them...but then..a mass relay was right there in front of me and Hackett the whole time..talk about a funky plot twist..lol

note: you couldn't put a dyson anything in a star system with a mass relay. It would become unstable and probably cause for extreme difficulty, they have limitless power factors within, and the Geth would be better off just swiping it to power their consensus..and keep out unwanted hostiles. Well duh..

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 09 avril 2013 - 10:17 .

[Indy_S]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Funny how when the Reaper died the Geth lost the reaper upgrades.

That's what you get for running your Operating System via Origin.

[shodiswe]

The Pereus Veil has a lot of nebula gasses and other particles obscuring scanners asside from the time lag of scanning distant star systems from a distance. If a star system is 300 LY or more from the scanner then you wouldn't even be able to see the Geth that moved in 200 years earlier.
Which would why it's called Perseus Veil. Good place to hide in.
Who knows there might be others hiding in those hard to scan regions of the galaxy.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

^Ain't gonna happen. Geth are dead. They'll still be dead in a 1000 years.

If you betray the Geth then their second fleet that they were holding back never jumps in, which partialy explains the differnce between luploading the code and sabotaging it. When it's uploaded their fleet is reinforced by a second fleet according to the Codex.
If you bestray them then I guess that second fleet dissapears into the veil to create a new home for the Geth, with "increased" hatred of the Quarians and those who would betray them and have them destroyed.

Maybe they will return in a thousand years with a fleet a hundred tiems the size and far more advanced as they would have advanced considerably in those years and had time to analyse Xen's sensor jammer technology.

Bye bye, Quarians. They probably wont be happy with just chasing of the Quarians this time, they will hunt them down then go for everyone else that would have prefered to see them dead.
That's what usualy happens in wars, the favors of the past are returned with interest.  

[Auld Wulf]

@shodiswe

That seems likely. After the unprovoked bombing of the megastructure, the geth are likely more shrewd with their forces. Plus, the Legion booster basically allows them to think in a way similar to Legion -- more individually. As such, they might have decided that a strategy similar to the one you posed was wise. Holding back about 60% of their actual fleet, and only devoting as many resources as they feel necessary.

With Reaper-level tech for running simulations, they likely knew exactly how many ships they'd need to deal with the quarians, and then just tossed in a few more to deal with unexpected variables. The rest of their ships could remain at a safe distance, ready to retreat if it all goes wrong. We saw in Mass Effect 2 (the Alarei) that the geth can produce new hardware quickly. So... it's entirely possible that they might make a last, ditch strike against the quarians for taking everything from them. The megastructure, their friends, Legion, everything.

[justafan]

Shodiswe and Auld. I think it is pretty clear that the Geth do not hold a grudge or feel anger. They actually seem to know why they are in the situation they are in.

If they feel the Quarians are a threat, then they will probably come back, but after analyzing the data, they would probably conclude that the Quarians are content with holding their former holdings, and that the Geth are safe in unknown space, free to pursue their dyson sphere in that isolationism they love oh so well, then they will thrive in obscurity with the galaxy one the wiser.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
And the Quarians that protested were indeed courageous just as the Geth that turned themselves in rather than risk those Quarians getting hurt were also courageous.  The issue was not enough of them did so.

We don't really have any idea of numbers. The quarians backing the geth didn't have the bigger guns, a disadvantage not shared by the supporters of the Civil Rights movement (aka the US government).

And yes we can agree that a lot of people would likely do what the Quarians did.  That does not make them any less amoral or selfish.  Most people are. That is why capitalism is so far the best form of economy because we can't be trusted to not act in our own selfish interests.

The quarians wanted to save their society and place in the galactic community by destroying AI they had accidentally created.

The geth wanted to save their race by destroying all advanced organic races in the galaxy.

Both the geth and the quarians are amoral and selfish. Both decisions are understandable if you disregard morality.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 avril 2013 - 03:00 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

^Ain't gonna happen. Geth are dead. They'll still be dead in a 1000 years.

If you betray the Geth then their second fleet that they were holding back never jumps in, which partialy explains the differnce between luploading the code and sabotaging it. When it's uploaded their fleet is reinforced by a second fleet according to the Codex.
If you bestray them then I guess that second fleet dissapears into the veil to create a new home for the Geth, with "increased" hatred of the Quarians and those who would betray them and have them destroyed.

Maybe they will return in a thousand years with a fleet a hundred tiems the size and far more advanced as they would have advanced considerably in those years and had time to analyse Xen's sensor jammer technology.

Bye bye, Quarians. They probably wont be happy with just chasing of the Quarians this time, they will hunt them down then go for everyone else that would have prefered to see them dead.
That's what usualy happens in wars, the favors of the past are returned with interest.  

Actually I am talking about destroy ending which over 80% of all players have selected. I made peace on Rannoch.

[Saito404]

To answer the main question, Quarians. I really don't understand why people love the Geth so much.

[Spartas Husky]

Cannot believe this has gone sof ar as it has... bravo. Enjoyed reading this alot keep it up.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians submitted themselves to Council rule.  That was their choice.  Calling it the Treaty of Versailles doesn't really help your point.  Don't start wars and lose.  If you do, don't start another war and try and committ genocide on people.  All you are doing is doubling down on your stupidity.  Do you really think I care that the Germans got screwed over in a treaty when they instigated a World War?

No it does not mean the Quarains must be eliminated.  There is nothing in the game that says that.  That is what you choose to interpret.  Geth VI says this right after Gherel says to everyone the Geth have stopped firing and are vulnerable.  He says this right after Tali says the Quarians have already starte their attack.  Shooting at a defenseless enemy is threatening them.  You are simply ignoring that fact.  The Quarians were as shown in the game CURRENTLY threatening the Geth.  In all scenarios in the game when they stop  CURRENTLY threatening the Geth, peace is achieved.  That is proven by the game so you statement that it means they must be eliminated contradicts the game.

Legion has been using the Reaper Code from the time you met him.  He has not gone crazy.  Every single action he does while using the Reaper Code helps you.  Every single action.  Even his lies help you.  Comparing his situation to EDI or Kenson is simply incorrect because we saw clear evidence of them turning on you.  From an in-game perspective Legion never turns on you and from a meta game perspective we know he never turns on you post upload.  So 100% of the time in-game and metagame, the RC helps you.  100%.

And saying you don't screw around with synthetic rights is precisely why the Reapers exist, lol.  You basically ensure conflict will arise.  You can stand up for whomever you want but your evidence is somewhat lacking.  You are ignoring what the game shows us.  Given your stance on synthetic rights, you might as well just say I choose organics because they are organic and be done with it.

And synthesis is not a fairy tell ending.  There is no guarantee a Krogan hybrid and a Turian hybrid still won't want to kill each other.  I can't mod life to suit my desires.  I have to deal with situations as they come and sometimes I have to make decisions I don't want to make.  That's life.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yet you think that the quarians are supposed to blindly trust what Legion tells Tali and Shepard. Saren trusted what Soveregin told it, but did that make Soveregin's information trustworthy just because Saren believed it? And Miranda trusted the Illusive Man with her life in ME2 and believed his word, and we all know how THAT turned out ... with him giving her a direct order on the Collector Base to despose of the person she revived, after spending six months trying to convince Shepard TIM would never do that exact thing she was ordered to.
Just because Tali and Shepard trust Legion dosn't instantly make Legion itself trustworthy. Just because Shep and Tali trust Legion doesn't mean anyone else can or should on blind faith.
And no, he DOESN'T know the intel came from Legion. Not as far as I know.
Also, WRONG. Any REAL sensible person would wait for a valid REASON to be given. You don't just stop attacking a major enemy without an actuall reason for it. Sorry, but you CAN'T blame Gerrel for that mess. That's all on Tali and Raan failing to communicate.

Also, LOL, what? Did you NOT see the ending where you side with the geth, and they use their power to completely obliterate the quarians, when they had no reason to be so ruthless? If they could manuver fighters to intercept incoming fire with perfect accuracy, they could disable the liveships without destroying them. But they didn't. NO DIFFERENT then what they did in the Morning War with massive civilian casualties they could have avoided.
Also, Gerrel doens't KNOW the geth want any peace with organics. If he had, he never would have issued a martch to war. When he DOES learn co-existance is possible, he STANDS DOWN. Gerrel has already proven he isn't the power-hungry general you headcannon him to be, so stop trying to paint him as something the game itself shows him NOT to be. He stood down NOT because of the geth's return to full strength, but because he learns that the geth won't shoot.
And AGAIN, wrong. Unless both sides see each-other stop shooting, they will destroy each-other. Again, you try to headcannon "vunerable" equaling "not shootig back."
And again, that's STILL the geth's fault for GIVING themselves the reputation that they are impossible to negotiate with. If the quarians DID think the geth could be negotiated with, they wouldn't have gone to war in the first place.

No. I expect Legion to tell me that the Reapers have an HQ on Rannoch. He told Raan in a single sentance pretty quickly. He had time to exposit geth being under Reaper control for 2 minutes while you hunt for the release for his restraints. You'd think a simple mention of "Reaper base on planet" would come up WITHOUT having to be directly asked about it. Raan had to actively inquire the information. I did NOT see Legion volunteer that info prior to Raan's inquery.

The Quarians don't have to trust Shep or Tali.  If they don't they simply die if peace is not an option.  Legion spent the entire game trying to save them.  Shep took time out of a galactic apocalypse to save them.  Tali is the supposed expert on the Geth and is the main Quarian who saves them.  If you don't want to trust people that just saved your a** after you got yourself in a way you were getting your a** handed to you then you die if I have to choose between you and the people you attacked.  There is nothing more to it.  There are consequences to your actions no matter how justifiable you think those actions may be.

Yes I saw the ending where I side with the Geth and the Quarians fire at them.  The Quarians in that momemt prove that they intend to keep their 100% record of attacking the Geth when they think they can win.  Nobody is under any obligation to spare someone who is currently trying to kill them.  No one.  If you shoot at me you die.

And Legion told them about the base when it made sense to do so.  He had no idea where the signal was which is why it takes a few side missions for him to find it.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. Since the Dreadnought is getting the signal FROM the base, it is completely relevent. Even more so, because if you had been aware of the signal being streamed from the Rannoch base, you could have tracked it from the dreadnought, and known where to hit that Reaper instantly, so that you could have ended the fight quicker. It would have saved alot of lives on both sides to know where that damn base was so soon. THAT's my point.

No. Legion outright lied about why he was going to that server. He said that server mission was soley to save quarian ships, when in truth, he wanted to do so in order to save geth. 

Also, I remind you that, since the Migrant Fleet isn't usually all that connected to the galaxy, unless it's big information (like Reapers invading), I doubt Tali even knew that Shepard was released from Alliance lock-up. Grunt wasn't aware of Shepard's release on Uttuku, even though Wrex knew long before. Miranda took at least a week to find out, and she's the one with sources everywhere. As far as I know, Shepard being released from Alliance custody wasn't all that public until at least after the Citadel Coup, which by that time, the quarians were already in the Veil fighting the geth. And with public comm bouys mostly destroyed, information is slow to reach the Terminus Systems, where the Migrant Fleet was in the weeks predating the invasion. In  all likelyhood, Tali never knew Shepard was out of lock-up till well after the quarians were committed to their fight. In fact, I don't think Tali knew Shep was free till the quarians sent their invite to talk.

I Repeat - Tali likely DIDN'T know Shepard was out of lock-up till the invite. Shepard's release wasn't publc instantly, and with the public bouys down, information getting all the way out to the Cerberus-monitored Terminus would take a while. So in likelyhood, Tali lilely never heard Shepard was out until after the quarians got entraped by the geth.

So, in TRUTH, Tali is still 3 - 0 in times she DIDN'T lie to Shepard. Also, if anything, quarian lives were just the secondary objective to recovering geth. Legion flat-out tells you that he would never have done this mission if not for the chance that he could persuade the geth in the server to join up.

And what the hell are you talking about? I just said that I trust Legion personally, but do not begrudge others for wanting more information and proof before risking 17 million lives on him.

Except Legion doesn't know.  He has to spend time looking for it.  That is the whole reason why you have to do side missions because after you complete one he is able to locate the signal.  So nothing you said comes from the game.  The game makes it clear Legion is unable to locate the signal for quite some time.

Legion wanted save the ships and also save his people.  There is nothing he says in the game that says he did not have both goals.  You can have a mission that achieves more than one goal Silver, lol.  Legion simply told Shep about the goal that he knew the Quarians would support.  Does a Quarian say they want to save Geth?  So you are mad Legion wanted to save Geth and Quarians while the Quarians simply just want to save themselves, lol?

And nope, after you meet the Quarians, and speak with Tali alone just outside the comm room, Shep flat out asks Tali why he didn't tell her and she says he had his own trouble and says she is sorry about Earth.  So sorry not buying it.  Tali choose not to tell him.

And once again, Legion was right each and every time.  Each and every time Reaper Code Legion helps.  His lies help.  There is not a situation in the game where Reaper Code Legion does not end up helping Shepard.  None.

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 04:44 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

We don't really have any idea of numbers. The quarians backing the geth didn't have the bigger guns, a disadvantage not shared by the supporters of the Civil Rights movement (aka the US government).

The quarians wanted to save their society and place in the galactic community by destroying AI they had accidentally created.

The geth wanted to save their race by destroying all advanced organic races in the galaxy.

Both the geth and the quarians are amoral and selfish. Both decisions are understandable if you disregard morality.

Civil Rights movement started before the US Government got involved.  Did you not see vids of the US Government hosing down protesters and the like?  Private Citizens forced/shamed the US Government into doing what was right.  Same thing with Slavery, the Civil War and the Underground Railroad.  All those movements requried private citizens to pressure the government into doing what was right.

And the difference is, the Quarians being amoral and selfish was the result of their own mistake.  They f**ked up and tried to take it out on the Geth.  The Geth's decision was the direct result of the Quarians.  They were forced into a decision because of the Quarians aggression and in part because of the Council's Laws and actions when it came to AI.

So the reality is the Quarians are not only responsible for their amoral and selfish decisions, they are also responsible for the Geth's amoral and selfish decisions.  You can't just pretend like these decisions were made in a vaccum. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Aaaaand Remy continues to play the "Geth are so innocent and cute" card.


After all when organics do something wrong it is their fault, but when synthetics do something wrong it is still the organics fault.

Stupid machines.

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

No, that was Austria-Hungary. 

Austria-Hungary would not have declared war if they did not have the support of Germany.  

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Aaaaand Remy continues to play the "Geth are so innocent and cute" card.


After all when organics do something wrong it is their fault, but when synthetics do something wrong it is still the organics fault.

Stupid machines.

Blame is not 100%.  The Quarians amoral and selfish decisions was 100% the fault of some combination of organics ie the Quarians themselves and the Council and their laws.  I don't care who you weight more the fact is it was entirely an organic problem.  The Geth are not innocent and cute.  They can be blamed for their role in their own amoral and selfish decisions.  However, pretending like they are 100% at fault when they were clearly driven to do what they did by organics is disingenous.  They are not 100% blameless but they are not 100% at fault.  They share in blame with the organics that created the situation that led to their decisions.

Again, you guys seem to be upset with me like I am a writer.  I did not write the Organics creating their own mess.  Bioware did.  I didn not write Organics backing the Geth into a corner.  Bioware did.  The game proves that when the Geth are not threatend by Organics they live in peace with Organics.  The game proves that the reason the conflict began is because the Geth were living in peace with Organics and organics attacked them while they were still living in peace with them.   The game proves that when the Quarians think they can win they will attack and kill Geth even when those Geth are not shooting at them.  The game proves that when the Geth think they can win they will choose peace provided the Quarians are not shooting at them with intent to kill.

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 05:25 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

No, that was Austria-Hungary. 

Austria-Hungary would not have declared war if they did not have the support of Germany.  

Austria-Hungary started the whole mess by invading Serbia.

Which of course called every other two bit nation in Europe to the slaughter house.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Austria-Hungary started the whole mess by invading Serbia.

Which of course called every other two bit nation in Europe to the slaughter house.

Well to be fair their Arch Duke was allegedly murdered with the aid of Serbians officials.  However, the point still remains.  Austria-Hungary discussed the prospect of war with Germany before issuing their 10 demands to Serbia.  Serbia actually accepted 8 of the 10 demands but Austria-Hungary basically knew they had German backing and so decided to start a war because 2 of their 10 demands were not met.  They knew they could not win a war if their Allies did not assist them.  Germany had already prepared for such a war as the Schlieffen Plan was devised years earlier which contemplated how to effectively wage a war on two fronts ie East with Russia and West against France.

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 05:52 .

[S.A.K]

Bet Remy can prove n@zis as the most caring and loving people ever with his methods.

Modifié par S.A.K, 09 avril 2013 - 05:59 .

[Auld Wulf]

I like you, remy. You tend to remind people that the geth supporters (like myself) don't absolve the geth of all sins. Whereas the quarian supporters uphold them to such an Aryan-esque standard of absolute perfection that it's terrifying to me. That quarians are incapable of corruption, or evil, or even of making mistakes. That the quarians wouldn't even make mistakes that we humans do. That's when you're taking fanboyism too far.

That's when it turns into unhealthy hate. I don't hate the quarians. To the contrary, I really dig Koris and I want to hang out with him. But the quarian supporters really hate the geth to a point where it's just become unhealthy. That's why we need to re-examine this debate. Quarians aren't Aryan perfection, they're organics just like you or I. They're capable of corruption, evil, and of making mistakes. When we can accept that, we can move forward.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 09 avril 2013 - 06:17 .

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Bet Remy can prove n@zis as the most caring and loving people ever with his methods.

Umm they like the Quarians started two wars when they didn't have to.  I guess it sucks for them they didn't have Shep around to support them.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Bet Remy can prove n@zis as the most caring and loving people ever with his methods.

Umm they like the Quarians started two wars when they didn't have to.  I guess it sucks for them they didn't have Shep around to support them.

Wouldn't is suck for both sides? It's not like Geth like being Reaper's b!tch. Or do they?

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
  You can't just pretend like these decisions were made in a vaccum. 

I'm pretty sure the entire point of my comparison is to show that you can't analyze those choices in a vacuum.