4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...
Wouldn't is suck for both sides? It's not like Geth like being Reaper's b!tch. Or do they?

My saying it sucks for them Shep was not around to support them was a reference to the N*z*'s you mentioned in your previous post.  They were not fighting the Geth because the Geth were not a side in the conflict with them.  And I suspect Shep not being around to bail them out would not suck for the Jews and the Western Alliance.

I was responding to your attempt to claim I sympathised with them by pointing out how the Quarians started two wars just like them so your claim made no sense.  In fact, the same could be said of you regarding your defense of the genocidal Quarians but is that really where we want the debate to go?

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 07:06 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It wasn't the "Western Alliance"

It was the "Allies"

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 09 avril 2013 - 07:06 .

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It wasn't the "Western Alliance"

It was the "Allies"

Can you please correct the Wiki then?  They reference the Western Allies 5 times below.  Do I need to find more examples of the term Western Allies or Alliance being used or will you just try to nitpick everything I say because you don't like the fact I side with the Geth?

http://en.wikipedia....of_World_War_II

Oh and what do we have here?  An entire Wiki about the Western Allies, lol.

http://en.wikipedia..../Western_Allies

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 07:11 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

World War 1: The Allies against the Central Powers.

World War 2: The Allies against the Axis.

But I'm done here now. Have fun all.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Wouldn't is suck for both sides? It's not like Geth like being Reaper's b!tch. Or do they?

My saying it sucks for them Shep was not around to support them was a reference to the N*z*'s you mentioned in your previous post.  They were not fighting the Geth because the Geth were not a side in the conflict with them.  And I suspect Shep not being around to bail them out would not suck for the Jews and the Western Alliance.

Ok, sorry. I misunderstood that one.

I was responding to your attempt to claim I sympathised with them by pointing out how the Quarians started two wars just like them so your claim made no sense.  In fact, the same could be said of you regarding your defense of the genocidal Quarians but is that really where we want the debate to go?

Genocidal Quarians? Only one side kept killing for the last 300 years. And it's not the Quarians. You can blame the Quarians for starting the MW, but it's not fair to blame them for the 2nd one. Geth were holding their world and did nothing, I say again NOTHING to prove they were ever going to give it back. And Legion himself say Geth do not use the planet. Geth were still holding it and killing anyone approching it. And the Geth were even stupid enough to build that Dyson sphere around it's star, and then joined the Reapers when it got screwed. I don't see why they would select that specific star for this matter other than to provoke the Quarians. The Geth totally asked for the second war. Stupid machines. I don't regret killing the Geth with the destroy ending one bit. Geth deserve what they got just like the Reapers.

[Nole]

You can not compare machines with a living. I would always save the quarians.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

World War 1: The Allies against the Central Powers.

World War 2: The Allies against the Axis.

But I'm done here now. Have fun all.

And within that group were the Western Allies which were the Allies excluding countries like Russia.  Again, you are just nitpicking for no reason.  History books everywhere recognize there were Western Allies among the Allied Powers.

[S.A.K]

WittingEight65 wrote...

You can not compare machines with a living. I would always save the quarians.

Exactly.

[Phatose]

I cannot compare living things with machines because living things are machines.

To think otherwise is to totally discard all of our understanding of biology, chemistry and physics and embrace mysticism. No thanks - I'll save the superstition for Halloween parties.

[silverexile17s]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
 that power lapse would be FATAL to any geth connected to any cluster of sattlites that powers off.

Only if Geth consciousness resides entirely in random access memory, rather than secondary storage. Powering off a computer abruptly can be hard on your hardware, but generally won't erase your operating system.

Legion spicifically tells you that thousands of programs were hardwire "installed" into the megastructure. To the point where Legion says that they needed physical hardware to transfer them to. There weren't enough servers to do so. Ergo, many of the geth that were hardwired DID die from having the collector sattlites destroyed. That's in-game. Al back-up, memeory, and programs were on the. megastructure. There WERE no back-up's on it because they ecpected to to be eternal. Or, if there were back-ups, they were linked to the same source as the primaries - the collection sattlites.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 avril 2013 - 07:57 .

[remydat]

S.A.K

What do you call trying to exterminate a race that did not attack you completely?  If you want to say the Geth were genocidal as well then so be it.  That doesn't change the fact the Quarians were the instigators of the genocidal cycle.

When someone wins a war and kicks bad neighbors off the place they were born, they don't have to prove anything to those bad neighbors.  The loser who also happened to be the ones who started the war have to prove they will submit themselves to the conditions of the victor if they want land back.  If they refuse to do so and launch another war then they are the aggressors both times.

SAK honestly where are you getting this naive notion that the winners have to prove anything to the losers when the losers were the aggressors?  Certainly not from human history.  Hell what happened when people tried to appease Hitler?  Oh that's right he wanted more and still started a war because his problem was not just he wanted Alsace or Lorraine back from the French.  His problem was he fundamentally hated people and would accept nothing but their complete subjugation or extinction.

The fundamental problem here is there are too many Quarians who think the Geth are nothing more than "Its"  Even Tali refers to Legion as "IT" when around the Admirals because seeing the Geth as anything more than tools that went rogue is not an acceptable position in Quarian society.  Koris is in the minority and everyone you meet reinforces that fact.  You can give them all the land they want but then they will find something else to hate you for.  Until they can be cured from their inherent hatred and prejudice of you that started this conflict, all you do by giving them concessions is suggest to them you are weak and thus can be defeated.  Winners don't offer concessions for free SAK precisely because it suggests weakness to the loser especially if that loser is predisposed to hate your very existence.  That was the mistake made with Hitler.  They gave or allowed him to claim land thinking it would appease him and it failed because fundamentally he hated his enemies for existing.

Until the Xen's of the world are not made Admirals and until Tali can feel comfortable referring to Legion as anything other than it, then giving them land is stupid.  They will just use it to rebuild and attack you because you killed their ancestors.  The only reason it is possible right now is because of the Reaper War.  It forced both sides to consider things they would likely have never considered otherwise.  It forced Tali to admit to Legion he has a soul and it forced Gherel to accept peace because he knews the Geth had the Reaper Upload.  It forced the Geth to respect the sacrifices Legion made to save them and honor that sacrifice by reconciling with their creators.

You don't concede or appease prejudice SAK.  You refuse to tolerate it and you give no quarter until the other party accepts there is no place in civilized society for it.  That is true of the Quarians, Geth, N*z*s, real life or fiction.

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 08:01 .

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Arranged in  dyson bubble means that you have these clusters on all sides of the star. You don't orginize them UNLESS you intent to take all the solar output of the star.

Also, again, cultivating farmland like that could be seen almost as laying flowers on a grave. Memorim. A tribute, if you will.

And AGAIN, it STILL shares the same function as a Dyson Shell, which is to absorb the total output of the star. Just more cost-effective. But it's the same effect.

A Dyson bubble is not a solid shell. It could approximate one, given enough statites. But we're given no evidence the geth are trying to do such a thing. The wish to harness some of the star's energy, not necessarily all of it.




Here's another approach. Suppose that the geth are building enough statites to absorb 100% of Tikkun's solar output. We can then approximate all of the statites as a solid shell. Let's be generous and agree that the megastructure is being constructed at half the distance between Rannoch and Tikkun.

Then the surface area of such a structure is:
4pi* (0.5 * 0.76AU)^2 = 4.061*10^22 square metres

The least dense material we have for such a purpose is ultralight carbon nanotubes at around 1.4grams / m^2. But, we are in 2186 so we'll say that we can get this down to 0.3g/m^2.

That gives the total mass of the shell at 1.22 * 10^19 kg of material.

I don't think I need to tell how much material this is. But if we imagine this as a sphere of pure carbon, it would be a sphere 234 km in diameter.

Quite frankly, I find it highly unbelievable the geth could (and would) build a structure of such a size.

Link to calculation: http://www.wolframal...)^2 / 1.8g/cm^3

They have been building non-stop  for 264 years straight, had resuorces from all of the quarian systems, and Legion says that there is alot more planned work on it back in ME2. What DOES make it unphesible? The only restraint would be time and patiance. Time is immaterial to the geth, so that's not a problem, and the geth are indefinately patient. The only thing that stopped them was the quarians kicking down the door looking to get Rannoch back.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You can not compare machines with a living. I would always save the quarians.

Exactly.

And that is exactly why the Geth can't just give them their land back, lol.  It is prejudice plain and simple SAK.  You can give them whatever they ask for and they will always feel they deserve more because they will always see you as just a machine.

It is amazing how you guys expect the Geth to appease people that think like you do regarding their status as living beings.  I mean what is the logic here, "How dare the Geth not make concessions for me when I think they are inferior to me, lol.  It's not like history is littered with people trying to exterminate what they think are inferior beings, lol."

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
Ok, so Legion was interfacing with a Reaper. But Legion still thought the base on Rannoch was a backup transmitter similar to the Dreadnaught, and not an actual Reaper, so what's your point?

There is nothing that says Legion knew there was a Reaper on Rannoch.

The point was he knew there was a Reaper base was on Rannoch. Not having a confirmed idea of there being a Reaper or not doens't change the fact that he knew a base existed on Rannoch. Had Shepard known, the Commander could have at least tried to trace the thing with EDI, or get some idea of where the thing was while Legion had a connection to the Reaper. It would have saved a few lives to know ahead of time what to look for, or that the dreadnought wasn't the central target to worry about in regards to Reaper control of the geth.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

You can not compare machines with a living. I would always save the quarians.

Exactly.

And that is exactly why the Geth can't just give them their land back, lol.  It is prejudice plain and simple SAK.  You can give them whatever they ask for and they will always feel they deserve more because they will always see you as just a machine.

It is amazing how you guys expect the Geth to appease people that think like you do regarding their status as living beings.  I mean what is the logic here, "How dare the Geth not make concessions for me when I think they are inferior to me, lol.  It's not like history is littered with people trying to exterminate what they think are inferior beings, lol."

WRONG. It's MISTRUST, "plain and simple"
The quqrians have NO REASON to think the geth are suddenly going to be cuddly and warm after seeing a fleet of them ravage the Citadel 3 years ago, or how they killed all the diplomats that ever DID try negotiation before. Why do you KEEP ignoring these things? There is no reason for the quarians to trust the geth.

The problem here is that YOU expect people to appease the Geth. That sentiment of people is Exactally what EVERYONE ELSE thinks of the GETH. They think the GETH are the ones with that ideal. And thus far, the geth populance did nothing to change that ideal of them.

[Argolas]

Referring to Legion as "it" is perfectly correct. Legion does not have a specific gender.

As for the quarian admirals, here's my opinion: Xen is the type of person that must be removed from power at all cost, her kind of thinking cannot be tolerated. Gerrel is a more difficult case. I think his first concern is the quarian dream of returning to Rannoch, but he is still way too eager to go to war. Considering his reckless actions that endangered the fleet and almost makes peace impossible, he can't stay in power either for the future.

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

^Even if the sphere don't destroy the planet, you must admit they choose one of the worst possible places to build the thing out of 400 billion stars. They selected the one system that is most important to the Quarinas. Did the Geth do this to provoke the Quarians? Or was it just stupidity? That's why I hope the thing was full of those Geth idiots. They asked for it.

I think it was because Rannoch's system, Tikkun, was the system where the Perseus Veil's Mass Relay is located, or something along those lines.
It's about the only thing I can think of that makes Tikkun any different then the other systems the geth must have had.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 avril 2013 - 08:13 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

They have been building non-stop  for 264 years straight, had resuorces from all of the quarian systems, and Legion says that there is alot more planned work on it back in ME2. What DOES make it unphesible? The only restraint would be time and patiance. Time is immaterial to the geth, so that's not a problem, and the geth are indefinately patient. The only thing that stopped them was the quarians kicking down the door looking to get Rannoch back.

And there is no proof in game they want to destroy Rannoch's eco-system.  A satellite can be controlled.  A satellite can be turned on and off.  Do you honestly think a sentient machine race can't program what to them is basically a DVR?  You can plot a planet's orbit down to the minute and program your DVR ie satellites to turn on and off based on what side of the star is currently facing the planet at a particular time.  

Modifié par remydat, 09 avril 2013 - 08:18 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Arranged in  dyson bubble means that you have these clusters on all sides of the star. You don't orginize them UNLESS you intent to take all the solar output of the star.

Also, again, cultivating farmland like that could be seen almost as laying flowers on a grave. Memorim. A tribute, if you will.

And AGAIN, it STILL shares the same function as a Dyson Shell, which is to absorb the total output of the star. Just more cost-effective. But it's the same effect.

A Dyson bubble is not a solid shell. It could approximate one, given enough statites. But we're given no evidence the geth are trying to do such a thing. The wish to harness some of the star's energy, not necessarily all of it.




Here's another approach. Suppose that the geth are building enough statites to absorb 100% of Tikkun's solar output. We can then approximate all of the statites as a solid shell. Let's be generous and agree that the megastructure is being constructed at half the distance between Rannoch and Tikkun.

Then the surface area of such a structure is:
4pi* (0.5 * 0.76AU)^2 = 4.061*10^22 square metres

The least dense material we have for such a purpose is ultralight carbon nanotubes at around 1.4grams / m^2. But, we are in 2186 so we'll say that we can get this down to 0.3g/m^2.

That gives the total mass of the shell at 1.22 * 10^19 kg of material.

I don't think I need to tell how much material this is. But if we imagine this as a sphere of pure carbon, it would be a sphere 234 km in diameter.

Quite frankly, I find it highly unbelievable the geth could (and would) build a structure of such a size.

Link to calculation: http://www.wolframal...)^2 / 1.8g/cm^3

Agreed, Legion simply uses the likeness of a dysonsphere to describe the basic idea of what the stucture looks like.
That is placing serversatelites with solarpower collectors around the sun, placed in orbit around the sun.
It would be unusualy stupid and impractical to collect the sunlight that's heating planets and mined asteroids in the system when you can collect the 99.998% of the sunlight that never travels towards a planetary body in the system.

And yet, the "Geth Debris Field" spicifically lists the pattern and arrangement as that of a Dyson Bubble.
And again, wrong. The sattlites were seperate entities from the collector sattlites. Stated right in the description. The sattlites were arranged with a server station linked to one "group" of sattlites. Sevral sattlites for one seperate server station. All arranged around Tikkun.
Also, temperature and climate don't matter to the geth, as they don't need it to survive.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

They have been building non-stop  for 264 years straight, had resuorces from all of the quarian systems, and Legion says that there is alot more planned work on it back in ME2. What DOES make it unphesible? The only restraint would be time and patiance. Time is immaterial to the geth, so that's not a problem, and the geth are indefinately patient. The only thing that stopped them was the quarians kicking down the door looking to get Rannoch back.

And there is no proof in game they want to destroy Rannoch's eco-system.  A satellite can be controlled.  A satellite can be turned on and off.  Turning off the satellites on the side of the star facing Rannoch can be done with a push of a button.  When that side changes due to the planet's orbit, you simply turn those satellites on and turn off the ones that are now on the side of the Star face Rannoch.  You can program this process to occur as Rannoch orbits both the Dyson Sphere and the Star.

AGAIN, wrong, because if they were considering Rannoch at all, they would have built the megastructure around it. And AGAIN, the entire point of building a dyson sphere is ti NEVER do that - it's to get full power from all sides 24/7. They already had server sattlites on all sides too, meaning that if any corrosponding collector sattlites switched off, the programs would die. They had NO INTENT of having anything like "shifts" on those sattlites. Otherwise, they woulf have only built them on one spicific side and synched them into orbit. INSTEAD, they built all around the sun, with the goal of entrapping ALL the sunlight. No sunlight to Rannoch = dead ecology.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

The point was he knew there was a Reaper base was on Rannoch. Not having a confirmed idea of there being a Reaper or not doens't change the fact that he knew a base existed on Rannoch. Had Shepard known, the Commander could have at least tried to trace the thing with EDI, or get some idea of where the thing was while Legion had a connection to the Reaper. It would have saved a few lives to know ahead of time what to look for, or that the dreadnought wasn't the central target to worry about in regards to Reaper control of the geth.

It took Legion one or two missions to Trace the signal.  Gherel was in the process of blowing up the Dreadnaught.  Exactly how was anyone going to trace a signal that Legion could not locate when he was hooked up to the Dreadnought?  The dude had a direct connection to the Dreadnaught and he was unable to find the location of the signal until after you do one of the side missions.  So you speculation is just that, speculation.

[Argolas]

Just wanted to throw in an interesting Legion quote back from ME2.

"We accept the Creators' hate. We hold their world of origin, though we are only caretakers for it."

[Phatose]

....Why would anyone build a dyson sphere around a planet? It's utterly pointless. Planets aren't giant fusion reactions giving off electromagnetic energy. It accomplishes nothing. Like putting a shell of solar panels around a rock.  Actually, that isn't like putting a shell of solar panels around a rock - it IS putting a shell of solar panels around a rock.

And again, they don't need to leave an entire side empty. They don't need to leave a quarter of a side empty. The amount of energy they need to forgo is exactly equal to the percentage of energy Rannoch receives anyway, which as a simple matter of math is billionth's of a percent.

Modifié par Phatose, 09 avril 2013 - 08:25 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@silverexile17s
Ok, so Legion was interfacing with a Reaper. But Legion still thought the base on Rannoch was a backup transmitter similar to the Dreadnaught, and not an actual Reaper, so what's your point?

There is nothing that says Legion knew there was a Reaper on Rannoch.

Yes, and if Legion wanted Shepard dead then he wouldn't have come in with that evac/escape vehicle he had aquired as agreed. He keept to the plan and saved Shepard and the squad.
I don't think the Reapers woudl have allowed that escape if they could have controled Legion. I would say Legion is very trustworthy at that point and it proves that the reverseenginered code that Legion had been tinkering with was safe. Therefor distributing it to his friends, family and people would be safe.

I also wonder what was so special about the Geth that Legion wanted to save from that Server, sure it was an opportunity to save a few geth and get the Quarians support by promising to stop that wave of fighters. But those geth which would be a very insignificant part of the Geth species... Maybe Legion was close to them somehow.

For God's sake, you misinterpting, headcannon-worshipping, geth supremicy preacher!
I NEVER said ANYTHING like "Legion wants to kill Shepard." NOT ONCE. What I DID say was "Legion lies to Shepard while Tali never did." Legion DOESN'T want Shepard DEAD. That is YOU putting words in my mouth, so stop right there.

I said that compared to Tali's track record, Legion isn't someone that you can take on his word as often. He risked Sheps' life by using the Commander as a decoy to save more geth. NOT wanting him/her dead, but it was a risk that Legion took without letting Shepard know of the danger.
This again happens with Legion actively using Reaper code. Not trying to kill Shepard, but putting Shepard at risk without letting Shepard know of the danger till well afterword. Same on the Dreadnought. Telling Shep wbout there being a Reaper Base somewhere on Rannoch would have sped along the war and saved lives. Perhaps Shepard could have even have found a way to locate the base from the Dreadnought if he/she knew what to look for now.
And no. Legion did it simply because he could get to them. I doubt any other server will have such a convient excuse as them launching attacks at that precice moment in time. It was a matter of convience, nothing more.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The point was he knew there was a Reaper base was on Rannoch. Not having a confirmed idea of there being a Reaper or not doens't change the fact that he knew a base existed on Rannoch. Had Shepard known, the Commander could have at least tried to trace the thing with EDI, or get some idea of where the thing was while Legion had a connection to the Reaper. It would have saved a few lives to know ahead of time what to look for, or that the dreadnought wasn't the central target to worry about in regards to Reaper control of the geth.

It took Legion one or two missions to Trace the signal.  Gherel was in the process of blowing up the Dreadnaught.  Exactly how was anyone going to trace a signal that Legion could not locate when he was hooked up to the Dreadnought?  The dude had a direct connection to the Dreadnaught and he was unable to find the location of the signal until after you do one of the side missions.  So you speculation is just that, speculation.

But he knew that the base existed, given how he answered Raan immedately. Not knowing where it is does NOT change the fact that he DOES know there is a base. And that was BEFORE Gerrel started his attack, back when Legion was monolouging about how the geth ended up in Reaper care. He had enough time to monolouge that, yet not the fact that his removal from the dreadnought would NOT free the geth from Reaper command? So NO, NOT speculation. Sorry pal.

Also, weren't you critizising people fro butting in to your comment debates with other people? Yet you are doing it to me now?
Because I'm pretty sure these weren't responces to any posts of yours.