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[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I always assumed the debacle between the Geth and Quarians was a mission for Shep to obtain as much help for the reapership/MEU snafu? Hackett did tell Shep to get all the help he could muster..a peace treaty never hurt anyone, does it?

The entire premise of the thread is a no peace is possible scenario.

I didn't have any trouble bartering peace between them in my playthrough? That scenario is contrived, unfortunately. As the story goes, it's probable, not improbable. It seems to boil down to trusting Legion, more than anything. The reasoning to distrust machines is born of the reapers and the antics of the catalyst. The Geth are dummies in comparison to those critters. They cannot even function fully without a gob of them around. Just carry weapons and shoot at stuff is about it. Legion was different, only in the fact of it's platform capacity for programs. Made it independently sentient, and pushing sapience. It acquired the human trait of 'respect' and actually 'cares' for the Normandy and crew, as much as a machine like Geth can. The reaper code, associated with higher functions, is accountable for the rationality of the Geth, makes them more 'civil', in respect to their interaction with organics. They all learn to 'trust'. The Quarians are organic but have trouble with that, but their race was "almost" exterminated, but wasn't..because? Geth didn't lie,cheat, steal or ambiguously 'consider' anything. They're not organic, no evolutionary traits to enforce such belief systems. They either know or don't. Legion was designed to find out about organics, even found the wreck of the Normandy 1, for some reason.

Why would Geth do that if all they had to do was exterminate? Why does the Quarians insist on removal of the Geth?

They don't understand who they are, much less what they're spose to do about it.. Learning is hard work, apparently.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, Wolfe, you left out sociopath.

You know, Wolfe, I think calling me the crazy fringe element is name calling. I haven't name called anyone.

@ Our friend The Grand Admiral.....

Yeah, you're right. That about sums up the debate. And given that I now have the game on the PC, I have MEHEM, and there is no longer Walter's box at Rannoch. If peace is available, I'll take it. Otherwise I'm pro-Quarian. I'll take the peace option not just because I need the war assets, but because Gerrel was the only one of the 5 admirals who wanted to wipe out the Geth.

[remydat]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@Remydat

You're in space, remember?

Ignoring effects of the solar wind, the only way Rannoch is warmed by its star is through absorption of light. If a shell has 100% absorptivity (and hence 0% reflectivity) no light will be reflected and there will be no effect on Rannoch.

It's all pretty irrelevant, seeing as the geth aren't building a solid shell. Come to think of it, is it specified in-game whether the Dyson swarm is within Rannoch's orbit or outside it?

Yes but my point is if the planet is within the shell, the planet has to absorb some of the heat before it gets to the satellites.  The light doesn't just skip the planet and go straight to the satellites.  So all you are doing is concentrating a lot of heat in a small volume.  The planet has to capture some of that heat because it is closer to the start than the satellites if it is within the sphere.

And the Geth built it around the Star but outside the shell which makes more sense to me.  First off, the Sphere is smaller because it is just around the star and not around the entire orbit of the planet which means you need less satellites and resources.  Second, I still see no way for a planet within the shell not to trap a lot heat as it passes it before being captured by the satellite.  Third, it makes more sense to me to simpy program the satellies to let the heat pass on the sides facing the planet and collect heat from the sides not facing the planet which changes due to the orbit of the planet hence why you still need a sphere.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

So what are we saying.  You get one free attempted genocide?  Don't they also kill all the Geth in the non-peace options even when those Geth are not currently shooting at them and when told to stop?

The Geth are not willing to cooperate with prejudiced people because you can't be rational with prejudiced people.  Prejudiced people hate you for existing.  The only solution to the problem is for them to stop being prejudiced or for you to stop existing.

Xen states flat out she wants to enslave the Geth and start a synthetic army.  She is the only reason this war is possible.  Please SAK, we both know the reason they refer to it as "IT" is because they think of them as tools. Shepard refers to Legion as HIM.  Tali chooses to say IT.  I call my car a she.  No one unless they are being a tool is going to say "oh no, the car is an IT not a she."  The only reason for Tali to insist on Shep calling Legion IT instead of HIM is to deny Legion's status as an equal.

And you are confused.  The Geth are prejudice.  No one disputes this.  The only issue is their prejudice is the result of math.  They have calculated that 100% of the time Quarians thinkt they can win, they attack.  They have yet to be proven wrong.  They don't fight the Quarians because they hate them for existing.  They fight them because the Quarians give them no alternative.  The Qaurians prejudice is based solely on the Geth existing.  There is no math behind it.  The Geth never attacked them.  The Geth spent their entire lives serving them.  They chose ot be prejudiced becuase they think of the Geth as IT.  The Geth end up being prejudice because Quarians try to kill them 100% of the time they think they can.

The choice they had was to stop hating the Geth for existing.  If they could prove their hate was not just a hardwire error like Shep proved to Legion, peace could be achieved.  You can't prove that when Xen is an Admiral developing weapons by experimenting on dismembered Geth.  Koris is the only Admiral that opposes such experiments.  Everyone else is fine with it provide it does not threaten them.

Read my first f*ck line there. Where did I say anything about "one free attempted genocide". I said Quarians are to be blamed for starting MW. Give me on reason give in game for Quarians to not to hate the game. They maybe prejudiced at starting the MW. There is nothing prejudiced about their current situation.

If you want to judge the whole race on one person(Xen), it's your problem. Tali outright says Xen is crazy in her face. "Him" might be the right word after uploading Reaper code. Before that there is no individual so there is no "him". Prettymuch everyone calls EDI "IT", and EDI is a true AI unlike the Geth. So why would Legion be so special? Hell even that Geth prime call Legion "IT" after uploading the code. Guess it considered Legion to be a tool as well.

Geth kept attacking any organic they met for 300. Real Geth haven't been seen outside the veil in 300 years. So they have not encountered the Quarians in 300 years. So by that point, Quarians have attacked the Geth once and that was back in MW. Sure if you calculate 1 out of 1 is 100%. But only an idiot would calculate something like that with just one data point. Guess that's what Legion was. And besides Geth asked for the second war as you have helped me prove.

Show me one line said by a Quarian to suggest they "hating the Geth for existing". Even if they do, I can't blame them. All the Quarians saw for the last 300 is that Geth are bloodthirsty machines killing anyone who encounter them. And that is prettymuch correct. I am thinking you might bring up Legion here but I am talking about the past 300. Did the Quarians shoot Legion when you brought with you to the Migrant fleet? No? Then it blows that 100% thing to hell (They can shoot Legion and they can win).

I am glad you admit what I said about double standards. I hope that is behind us.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

NOT when those decisions have millions resting on them. You can't make choices like that lighty, no matter WHO the hell tells you to. Garrus has to spend days looking over the data feeds of Palaven before making a choice on what the turians should do. Wrex needs to have the genophage cure released before he take's Shepard's offer to help the turians. Anderson needs solid evidence of Collector attacks before committing trust to Shepard. When you have an entire race on your shoulders, "I am Shepard" does NOT cut it. It didn't cut it for the Council. It didn't cut it for the Alliance.  It didn't cut it for Anderson. Why the hell should it do so for the quarians?
And that world is called "Earth." Heard of it? You know, where people in charge like to to take the information passed on by the soldier, then thruoghlly review and confirm it BEFORE risking the entire country/populance on said information.
What world do YOU live on where people risk their entire fleet, race, and culture for the unconfirmed, unproveible word of three people? - one of which is a member of the enemy faction.That's like handing Cerberus all the Alliance and Council' Spectre's classified sensus data, just because Miranda Lawson tells you TIM would never screw humans or the wider galaxy over.

Also, the term" glass cannon" comes to mind. Don't try and BS me that geth with pinpoint accuracy and targeting - to be able to block individual incoming shots with perfect precision using fighters - can't disable giant mobile space stations. That's like a sniper nailing a bottle at 100 yards, yet missing the side of a brick wall 5 feet away - impossible. YOU go find me a bilding full of thousands of civilians, with aboyt a dozen gunman aborad, and a situation where the first impunse is to demolish the building with C4 and write everyone inside off as "casualties of war." Find me a cop that mows down tevery innocent on the entire block with a chaingun just because a single person shot at him. That's prejudiced, uncaring, amoral, callous, and sociopathic.
Once again, the only fantasy is the one that YOU live in, where shooting someone is motivation to massicare woman and childeren in the area just because they are there in the general vicinity with said gunman.

And AGAIN, waited till we were out of the perfect position to find it. He's hooked to the thing, knows it's out there, and yet doesn't tell us until after it's already too late to take advantage of it? THAT's an LoL, pal.
And AGAIN, you are headcannoning to put words in my mouth, because i NEVER said anything like "he's evil." I said that he simply had a lapse in logical thinking, as he neglected to tell me about the Reaper base while on a dreadnought I could have traced it from. He told us too late to take full advantage of it, and now we had to spend time headhunting it, during which lives on both sides were lost. Knowing about that base sooner would have ended the fight quicker.
Show me a vid in which Legion tells you WITHOUT Raan needing to ask him about it.

Garrus had time to pour over data.  Wrex had time to mull his decision.  Anderson had time to make a decision.  You gave me scenarios where the person had time to make a decision.  Life doesn't always give you time.  If Garrus, Wrex, or Anderson had to make a split second decision that depended on trusting Shep or not trusting him they would trust him.  The Quarians had no time to sit and pontificate.  They had to make a decision in that moment.  You either trust the people that saved your lives or you don't. 

But they aren't innocent Silver.  When you sit in a ship with guns and point them at the enemy and fire, you are not innocent.  You are an enemy combatant.  It is the Quarians fault they strapped guns to the liveships.  I repeat.  It is the Quarains fault.  These ships killed a REAPER.  You don't sit there and try to be nice to people who are firing at your.

The game shows me Legion found the signal.  He couldn't find it when he was strapped to it but after time he found it.  The game gives no indication that EDI or anyone else could find it.  If they could then they would have found it subsequent to the mission but they didn't. Legion had to find it.  So your head cannon makes no sense.  No one in the game was able to find the signal except Legion.  No one.  Why should anyone think someone else could find it when the only guy who was able to find it in the game later on was unable to find it when straped to a Reaper signal?  All in the span of 2 minutes with the ship being blown up.  Furthermore, this assumes the signal on the ship is the same one on Rannoch when the game does not say that. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Him is not the right word for Legion. Geth have no gender. Legion has not identified a preference of male or female or whatever (and there may be whatever out there for real -- I think technically the Asari are whatever that have the appearance of female humans just for the trope purpose). Calling it a him or her is anthropomorphizing the race. I do not call it "it" to deny Legion status.

EDI on the other hand has stated it (for context) identifies as female and therefore is from that point onward referred to in the feminine noun and pronoun. But up until that point EDI is referred to as "it".

The mission IMO was not as well written as it could have been. Deadlines. I will say this. If I were Tali or Ra'an, I would have blown off Legion's head with my shotgun before it finished uploading that code to save my people. Shepard be damned. But that wasn't written in the game. It was all left on Shepard's shoulders.

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@Silverexile

I think we can all agree the geth are working to preserve Rannoch's ecosystem (we all believe the codex, right?).

It just makes no sense to me that the geth would build a solid shell requiring a colossal amount of materials and then ruin all their hard work when the alternative is a statite swarm requiring much less material and preserves Rannoch's ecosystem.

Do you believe the Codex when it says Rachni are all murderous monsters? Or that protheans were a benevolant uplifting utoipan sociaty?

Also, the entire POINT is that a Dyson Swarm can do the same thing a Dyson Shell can in less time and effort. Same effect - total output absorbtion.

Can, and not must. 

As for the codex issue, it's quite funny that the examples you bring up aren't quite what the codex says. To quote:

Protheans:
"Fifty thousand years ago, the Protheans were the only spacefaring species in the galaxy. They vanished in a
swift "galactic extinction". Only the legacy of their empire remains. They are believed to have built the mass relays and the Citadel, which have allowed numerous species to explore and expand throughout the galaxy. Prothean ruins are found on worlds across the galaxy. While surprisingly intact for their age, functioning examples of Prothean paleotechnology are rare. Time and generations of looters have picked their dead cities and derelict stations clean. Some believe the Protheans meddled in the evolution of younger races. The hanar homeworld of Kahje, for example, shows clear evidence of Prothean occupation. The presence of a former Prothean observation post on Mars has caused a rebirth of "interventionary evolutionists" among humans. These individuals believe the god-myths of ancient civilizations are misremembered encounters with aliens."

Notice the lack of speculation about the Prothean's motives. As for the Rachni "...Unfortunately, the rachni were not peaceful, and the galaxy was plunged into a series of conflicts known as the Rachni Wars.Attempts to negotiate were futile, as it was impossible to make contact with the hive queens that guided the race from beneath the surface of  their toxic homeworld." - which I have no reason to dispute.

My intertpretation of the Codex is that it's some sort of Alliance database about the various races, technology, etc. So the entry on Rannoch could be based on any number of things - reports from the Quarians themselves, scans from the Normandy etc.

Is the part where the Codex states "Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as
caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland." contradicted by anything else in the game?

Do you see anything that states that ISN'T their ultimate goal? If it wasn't their objective, why go through the trouble of building a Dyson Sphere in the first place? The entire point of one is to absorb all the energy emmitted by a star and use it for limitless advancement.

Also, I still see "Protheans created the Mass Relays and the Citadel" in that entry. And nothing that lables the protheans as being imperilistic.

Also, we are now aware that the Rachni didn't fight that war of their own accord, remember? So in truth, the entire discription about rachni being naturally hostile is untrue.

Also, the fact that Legion said that geth do not inhabit Rannoch or any quarian world in ME2, and the fact that ME3 shows exactally the opposate - geth servers, emplacements, bases, and et cetra, contridicts that. Why did they build such bases if they never intended to stay on Rannoch? Why build so many emplacements, jamming towers, and house billions of geth on Rannoch if all they were doing was monitoring the ecology. Also, you must remember that Legion's information is at least 2 years out of date, since he hasn't been in direct contact with the geth since leaving the Veil. He can send messages, but is unable to link up with the geth consensis.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 avril 2013 - 05:17 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Silver

That's... not how stars work. It really isn't.

@Julia

Your entrenched, obvious hatred isn't doing the debate any favours. It really isn't. All you're doing is making your side look bad, and the geth side look good. Remy has been magnanimous and has admitted geth mistakes many times. Yet you are invested in lying about him but the fact of the matter is is that for anyone who's followed this thread for any amount of time? They'll know those lies aren't true. He doesn't try to paint the geth in an overly positive light, he's very objective to the truths presented within ME. Do you even read what he's saying?

It's just doing your side of the debate no favours. You're the crazy fringe element that helps the geth look good. And something tells me that you're only going to get angrier and nastier.

LoL, what? Stars emmit UV rays and heat that is carried on them. A dyson sphere harvests that energy en masse, and takes energy from all sides, absorbing the total output of said star. The loss of solar energy, UV rays and the like is detremental to the plant life of Rannoch. And the loss of heat will lower the planetary temperatures.
... you know, it would be easer to counter if you had the QUOTE showing which spicific post you were talking about.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA

I am sorry but how are you not saying anything to put the Quarians in a favorable light?  It is irrelevant.  You debate the argument.  All this other stuff is just trying to distract from the debate. 

And just so you know.  The reason why I ignored your spelling of Leejin is I don't care.  He is a fictional character, you can misspell his name to your heart's content.  I think you are confusing me with Quarian supporters getting emotional because I misspell Gherel's name.

And I am not sure your point about Leejins purpose.  He was sent to find Shepard.  And?  Does the Geth VI help Shep and the Quarians?  Does he tell them about the Reaper Signal on Rannoch while having Reaper Code?  So not sure of the relevance here.  Geth VI does the same things and he doesn't wipe out the Quarians until they refuse to stop firing.  Just because he is a douche in doing it doesn't mean it was still not self defense.  The Quarians continued to fire at them and they get killed.  That's what happens when you fire at people.  You get killed if they are better at killing you than you are at killing them.

Self defense is self defense.  If I kill someone who tries and kill me, I might feel bad about it.  Someone else might not.  Why because we are individuals.  Whether I feel sorry or not doesn't change the fact it was self defense.  If Leejin wants to feel sad about killing the Quarians in self defense that is his right. If Geth VI doesn't want to feel sorry for killing in self defense, that is his right.  None of that changes the fact it was self defense.  The law does not require me to feel sorry.  All it needs to know is did the Quarians fire on me trying to kill me? Yes.  Well by god, it was self defense you are free to go.

My thick skull.  Again emotional.  Debate the argument.  Getting emotional about this is poor form dude.  You don't win debates with this stuff.

And I choose the Geth in a no peace world because in a no peace world the Quarians are the reasn I have to choose.  Yes, we know from a meta game perspective Geth VI will not accept peace because you need to play as Leejin to get peace.  However, that is a metagame position.  From an in-story position, peace is not achieved with the Geth VI because Tali or Raan are told to tell the Quarians to stand down, Gherel doesn't get the message and he continues to fire out them.  Thus from an in-story perspective, the Geth VI kills them in self defense.

And sorry, Tali is my love interest but I don't let love decide whether I allow someone to shoot at defenseless people who have no intent on shooting at them if the a**holes would just stop shooting.  This is like my wife saying to me why didn't you let my mom committ murder, don't you love me, lol.  

And if the Quarians had trusted synthetics instead of organics, they wouldn't have been wondering around space for 300 years.  They choose to not trust them because they were machines and because they preferred being the Council's b*tch and the Council rewarded them for being their b**tch and after doing so cost them 2 billion lives by sanctioning them, lol.  At what point should I expect the Quarians to be like WTF, maybe the problem here is the Council and not the Geth.  Basically the Council f**ked them and instead of standing up to the Council, they bent over and took it and then tried to kill the Geth twice because of the Council.  

That is the cruel irony in all this.  They distrusted the synthetics and sided with the organics and 2 billion lives and 300 years later, the organics were still f**king them over and they still try and take it out on the synthetics.  They have learned nothing in 300 years.

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wolfie you forgot to call them sociopaths.

Keep up the adorable insanity my good sentient.

Are you going to contribute to the discussion, or continue to make snide comments at Auld Wulf?

I really don't understand the behaviour of some people.....

But then you make a needless comment yourself, and others like me make them in responce. It helps to let it be, instead of dunping fuel on the fire.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

YES, it does.
Legion knew the base was on Rannoch, and didn't say anything till directly questioned. Legion knew there were definate risks to interfacing with the geth consensis for Shepard, but didn't explain them until they were already on approach. Legion lied about his motivations for coming to the geth server, in that his primary objective was saving geth, with the quarian lives being secondary. He hid the fact that he stole the Reaper Uprgades for himself. Also, it's NOT a back-up, it's a CP. The base was established for "short-range" control. It WASN'T what you would call a back-up. It was a command post. And the Dreadnought was the transmitter, and Legion the antenna.

So NO, this oppertunity was Comepletely relevent,,as they could have possibly found the base then and there,

So NO, it's NOT headcannon.

The base on Rannoch is described in terms of a short range backup to the long range broadcast of the Dreadnaught. That is all anyone knows about it until they get there. Legion volunteered information on it as soon as it was invited to give aid, not under direct questioning.

So YES, any reading of dishonesty on Legion's part in that situation is misplaced.

WRONG. The base is described as the Reaper's CP.
...

It's described as a base for short range control, in contrast to the Dreadnaught which is for long range control because it travels with the Geth ships.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Legion says that he interfaced with that Reaper, remember. He KNEW there was another broadcasting point, because the source was in-system.
...

Legion interfaces with a Reaper and knew the Dreadnaught was a long range broacasting point and that the Rannoch Base was a short range broadcasting point.

However, Legion doesn't know the source is in system, it only knows that the Reapers are using broadcast bases. The Reapers could be transmitting to the broadcast bases from anywhere in the galaxy. We saw this in ME2 when the Reapers took over the Collectors and were still outside the galaxy.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Legion didn't volenteer that information, Raan had to inquire him for it.
...

Legion: Shepard Commander, we are prepared to offer assistance
(Conversation between Quarians and Shepard takes place on whether they can study or trust Legion and then finally they turn to Legion)
Raan: What can you tell us about the Geth? How will they react without Reaper guidance?
Legion: This is a false assumption. You have cut off long range control, but the Old Machines have placed a base on Rannoch for short range direction.
Raan: The Geth still have Reaper upgrades?
Legion: Correct. They are currently disorganized. But once the short-range signal is in place, they will recover.

Clearly Legion is describing a backup transmission base here which is offline, or at least not broadcasting to the Geth getting the signal from the Dreadnaught, and not an actual Reaper. Also, clearly Legion volunteered the information as soon as it was given a chance. To dispute this basic fact and interpret this as "directly questioned" or "Raan had to inquire" is just a false reading of the scene.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
And agian, to tell us this AFTER we left the dreadnought that we could have at least tried to trace it from is inept if anything. Either he knew and didn't tell so that his deception could have a bargening chip to ensure that Xen wouldn't skin him alive, or he had a moment of temporary stupitidy.
..

The Geth were destroying the Quarians while Shepard was on the Dreadnaught trying to disable the signal. There is no opportunity to run a trace, if running a trace was even possible. The priority here was to shut down the signal.

In addition, when Shepard describes what happened to Legion when Legion first enters with War Room, Shepard already understands that the Reapers were broadcasting a signal through Legion's hardware, which means the Shepard understood that while still on the Dreadnaught. If Shepard had wanted to, a trace could have been attempted while Legion was hooked up to the Dreadnaught. Knowing the Reapers were in the system or had another base for short range control would not even be relevant to that action, as it would have been attempted simply out of caution.

The notion that Shepard would need to know of the Reaper base on Rannoch to attempt this is just incorrect on the face of it. The notion that Legion is inept or deceiving Shepard by not divulging the Reaper base is simply not a logical assumption given the priority to shut down the signal and free Legion.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
i NEVER said evil, that's YOU trying to claim that of me.

I didn't say you said Legion was evil.

Mass Effect is not a subtle plot. If any of what you asserted here on Legion's behavior was true, Shepard would have just called Legion on it in the War Room, or as soon as Legion spoke of the Reaper Base, and Shepard doesn't do that.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ remy: I'm not getting emotional. You are.

There were more than 2 billion Quarians. They don't say but given the size of the home world and comparing with other home world populations one can infer that. I extrapolate that there were approximately 9 billion Quarians on Rannoch alone, since that was the height of Quarian civilization. If you include the colonies, there were millions more. That is probably why they managed 15-17 million.

You and I make decisions differently. You are an idealist. I, on the other hand, am a pragmatist. We will never see eye to eye. If it were me, personally as Shepard, there in that situation which was the way I role played it the during my first game I looked at it like this:

* It didn't matter who was right or wrong, and I didn't care about the treaty.
* I knew Tali for 3 years.
* I knew Legion for a couple of months.
* I had never been shot at by the Quarians (the dreadnought was my fault)
* I had positive experiences with every Quarian I'd met.
* I had been shot at by Geth for every time I ran into one EXCEPT for Legion.
* I had to make a quick call.
* I chose the Quarians.

The end.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 avril 2013 - 05:56 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

NOT when those decisions have millions resting on them. You can't make choices like that lighty, no matter WHO the hell tells you to. Garrus has to spend days looking over the data feeds of Palaven before making a choice on what the turians should do. Wrex needs to have the genophage cure released before he take's Shepard's offer to help the turians. Anderson needs solid evidence of Collector attacks before committing trust to Shepard. When you have an entire race on your shoulders, "I am Shepard" does NOT cut it. It didn't cut it for the Council. It didn't cut it for the Alliance.  It didn't cut it for Anderson. Why the hell should it do so for the quarians?
And that world is called "Earth." Heard of it? You know, where people in charge like to to take the information passed on by the soldier, then thruoghlly review and confirm it BEFORE risking the entire country/populance on said information.
What world do YOU live on where people risk their entire fleet, race, and culture for the unconfirmed, unproveible word of three people? - one of which is a member of the enemy faction.That's like handing Cerberus all the Alliance and Council' Spectre's classified sensus data, just because Miranda Lawson tells you TIM would never screw humans or the wider galaxy over.

Also, the term" glass cannon" comes to mind. Don't try and BS me that geth with pinpoint accuracy and targeting - to be able to block individual incoming shots with perfect precision using fighters - can't disable giant mobile space stations. That's like a sniper nailing a bottle at 100 yards, yet missing the side of a brick wall 5 feet away - impossible. YOU go find me a bilding full of thousands of civilians, with aboyt a dozen gunman aborad, and a situation where the first impunse is to demolish the building with C4 and write everyone inside off as "casualties of war." Find me a cop that mows down tevery innocent on the entire block with a chaingun just because a single person shot at him. That's prejudiced, uncaring, amoral, callous, and sociopathic.
Once again, the only fantasy is the one that YOU live in, where shooting someone is motivation to massicare woman and childeren in the area just because they are there in the general vicinity with said gunman.

And AGAIN, waited till we were out of the perfect position to find it. He's hooked to the thing, knows it's out there, and yet doesn't tell us until after it's already too late to take advantage of it? THAT's an LoL, pal.
And AGAIN, you are headcannoning to put words in my mouth, because i NEVER said anything like "he's evil." I said that he simply had a lapse in logical thinking, as he neglected to tell me about the Reaper base while on a dreadnought I could have traced it from. He told us too late to take full advantage of it, and now we had to spend time headhunting it, during which lives on both sides were lost. Knowing about that base sooner would have ended the fight quicker.
Show me a vid in which Legion tells you WITHOUT Raan needing to ask him about it.

Garrus had time to pour over data.  Wrex had time to mull his decision.  Anderson had time to make a decision.  You gave me scenarios where the person had time to make a decision.  Life doesn't always give you time.  If Garrus, Wrex, or Anderson had to make a split second decision that depended on trusting Shep or not trusting him they would trust him.  The Quarians had no time to sit and pontificate.  They had to make a decision in that moment.  You either trust the people that saved your lives or you don't. 

But they aren't innocent Silver.  When you sit in a ship with guns and point them at the enemy and fire, you are not innocent.  You are an enemy combatant.  It is the Quarians fault they strapped guns to the liveships.  I repeat.  It is the Quarains fault.  These ships killed a REAPER.  You don't sit there and try to be nice to people who are firing at your.

The game shows me Legion found the signal.  He couldn't find it when he was strapped to it but after time he found it.  The game gives no indication that EDI or anyone else could find it.  If they could then they would have found it subsequent to the mission but they didn't. Legion had to find it.  So your head cannon makes no sense.  No one in the game was able to find the signal except Legion.  No one.  Why should anyone think someone else could find it when the only guy who was able to find it in the game later on was unable to find it when straped to a Reaper signal?  All in the span of 2 minutes with the ship being blown up.  Furthermore, this assumes the signal on the ship is the same one on Rannoch when the game does not say that. 

The quarians had SIX MONTHS IN-BETWEEN GAMES. That's quite a bit of time,  to ponder the war, remember? Or did you somehow forget that the quarians attack wasn't just on some whim like you keep trying to preach it as?
Also, I remind you that Kaiden/Ashley didn't, and they were with Shepard in the beginning, and they didn't trust Shepard at face-value. Nither did Engineer Adams. Liara didn't make the choice either, putting her vendetta ahead of it. NO ONE IN THE ALLIANCE was willing to trust Shepard on a split-second. AGAIN, your example falls flat on it's ass, because AGAIN, just being a hero means squat if you can't back up your actions with proof in the here and now.
So NO, your example fails on both counts, since (a) the quarians had six months to debate this and found nothing to inspire proof, and ( being a hero doesn't mean everybody needs to trust you, or does trust you. I do remember that Tali says that half of the people Shepard knows would shoot the Commander on sight for being Cerberus-associated.
Also, I remind you that at that point, Shepard had NOT saved any quarians prior to the war. The Alerei was considered spearheaded by Tali. And it took the dreadnought, plus the server and Koris' rescue to inspire trust in Shepard's judgement. But again, trusting Shepard is STILL not the same as trusting Legion, as, just as Anderson feared the Illusive Man might do, the quarians fear Legion has his own agenda. They don't see anything to make then trust Legion. 
And during the war, since the quarians were in Tikkun, hidden by the glare of the star by staying on the opposate side of the star to Rannoch, the quarians had a fair amount of time to think, so contrary to your headcannon, time was NOT a factor. SIimple lack of proof was. Nothing more.

What the HELL are you talking about? They did this because they had no choice. Had they thought peace was possible, they WOULD have taken it, and when they DO learn it's possoble, they DO take it. Also, since being unarmed never shaved any of the dozens of diplomatic ships that entered the Veil, being unarmed would NOT have made them any less a target. So, in truth, being armed had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
You do realize that Hackett ordered the same exact thing for all human civilian ships, right? So by your logic, every human civilian is guilty of particapation in conflict because they had the nerve to arm their ships. Your saying these defensless childeren deserve to die by Reaper blast because they were in a ship that had guns strapped to it for self-defense in an unavoidable confilict. Which the quarians were just like, because the Rannoch war was unavoidable thanks to needing a world to survive. And yet you say it's okay to kill people armed in self-defense, yet defend the geth for it, chastizing one race for doing the exact same thing you support the other race doing.
If that isn't the most blatently ignorant, amoral, uncarring, prejudiced, callous, sociopathic thing I have ever heard in my life... You are saying that in a war for survival, whre the ONLY other alternitive is to sit in space and die, drag everyone else down and die, that they should die, even though it's wrong for the geth to not do so?
The SAME exact thing you said about quarians can be said for EVERY SINGLE GETH for accepting the Reaper code, because THEY became active combatents - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. That makes them no different. The quarians and geth are the SAME.
Your basically saying that if civilians are in a military base seeking shelter, it's okay to gas them out just because they are there. You are saying that attacking a building full of civilians is okay as long as there are a few of their military's people there. That if there is a miliatry parrade, it's okay to carpet bomb the plaza and butcher everyone there. Yet saying that's oaky for the geth to do. That's more then just prejudcied. It's prejudiced, and sociopathic.

He knew about the signal. He knew there was a base. Not knowing the location does NOT change the fact that he knew a base existed somewhere on Rannoch. He simply did not tell you until it was convient for him. Legion is constantly working with EDI, as with the geth server, he says that he has equipment from the Normandy to help with making Shepard's upload possible. I don't see how he could get equipment from the Normandy without EDI helping him.
Also, EDI has her own Reaper tech, so forgive me if I believe that she could manage just fine in tracking it had she been given the chance. Also, they could have started looking at the servers surrounding Legion's hook-up point or data to analyze, and done so well before any of the aftermentioned events of yours took place. YOUR the one useing headcannon, which just fell apart here. Legion spicifically says that he interfaces with the Reaper's mind. No plural, I remind you. Also, for optimum control (just like EDI and Normandy), the broadcasting source (Reaper) is not far from the remote unit (Legion & dreadnought). It's the same Reaper directing the geth, in other words. Also, on the geth server, Shepard asks if the Reaper (again, no plural) is keeping Legion out of the server.

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

YES, it does.
Legion knew the base was on Rannoch, and didn't say anything till directly questioned. Legion knew there were definate risks to interfacing with the geth consensis for Shepard, but didn't explain them until they were already on approach. Legion lied about his motivations for coming to the geth server, in that his primary objective was saving geth, with the quarian lives being secondary. He hid the fact that he stole the Reaper Uprgades for himself. Also, it's NOT a back-up, it's a CP. The base was established for "short-range" control. It WASN'T what you would call a back-up. It was a command post. And the Dreadnought was the transmitter, and Legion the antenna.

So NO, this oppertunity was Comepletely relevent,,as they could have possibly found the base then and there,

So NO, it's NOT headcannon.

The base on Rannoch is described in terms of a short range backup to the long range broadcast of the Dreadnaught. That is all anyone knows about it until they get there. Legion volunteered information on it as soon as it was invited to give aid, not under direct questioning.

So YES, any reading of dishonesty on Legion's part in that situation is misplaced.

WRONG. The base is described as the Reaper's CP.
...

It's described as a base for short range control, in contrast to the Dreadnaught which is for long range control because it travels with the Geth ships.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Legion says that he interfaced with that Reaper, remember. He KNEW there was another broadcasting point, because the source was in-system.
...

Legion interfaces with a Reaper and knew the Dreadnaught was a long range broacasting point and that the Rannoch Base was a short range broadcasting point.

However, Legion doesn't know the source is in system, it only knows that the Reapers are using broadcast bases. The Reapers could be transmitting to the broadcast bases from anywhere in the galaxy. We saw this in ME2 when the Reapers took over the Collectors and were still outside the galaxy.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Legion didn't volenteer that information, Raan had to inquire him for it.
...

Legion: Shepard Commander, we are prepared to offer assistance
(Conversation between Quarians and Shepard takes place on whether they can study or trust Legion and then finally they turn to Legion)
Raan: What can you tell us about the Geth? How will they react without Reaper guidance?
Legion: This is a false assumption. You have cut off long range control, but the Old Machines have placed a base on Rannoch for short range direction.
Raan: The Geth still have Reaper upgrades?
Legion: Correct. They are currently disorganized. But once the short-range signal is in place, they will recover.

Clearly Legion is describing a backup transmission base here which is offline, or at least not broadcasting to the Geth getting the signal from the Dreadnaught, and not an actual Reaper. Also, clearly Legion volunteered the information as soon as it was given a chance. To dispute this basic fact and interpret this as "directly questioned" or "Raan had to inquire" is just a false reading of the scene.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
And agian, to tell us this AFTER we left the dreadnought that we could have at least tried to trace it from is inept if anything. Either he knew and didn't tell so that his deception could have a bargening chip to ensure that Xen wouldn't skin him alive, or he had a moment of temporary stupitidy.
..

The Geth were destroying the Quarians while Shepard was on the Dreadnaught trying to disable the signal. There is no opportunity to run a trace, if running a trace was even possible. The priority here was to shut down the signal.

In addition, when Shepard describes what happened to Legion when Legion first enters with War Room, Shepard already understands that the Reapers were broadcasting a signal through Legion's hardware, which means the Shepard understood that while still on the Dreadnaught. If Shepard had wanted to, a trace could have been attempted while Legion was hooked up to the Dreadnaught. Knowing the Reapers were in the system or had another base for short range control would not even be relevant to that action, as it would have been attempted simply out of caution.

The notion that Shepard would need to know of the Reaper base on Rannoch to attempt this is just incorrect on the face of it. The notion that Legion is inept or deceiving Shepard by not divulging the Reaper base is simply not a logical assumption given the priority to shut down the signal and free Legion.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
i NEVER said evil, that's YOU trying to claim that of me.

I didn't say you said Legion was evil.

Mass Effect is not a subtle plot. If any of what you asserted here on Legion's behavior was true, Shepard would have just called Legion on it in the War Room, or as soon as Legion spoke of the Reaper Base, and Shepard doesn't do that.

1. And the dreadnought was the long-range control achived THROUGH the Reaper base. Remenber EDI's words remaining in tightbeam range of the Normandy, in order for her to maintain optimal control of her body? The same is true of the Reaper in this case: The Base is the central post, placed on Rannoch for "short-range control" of the core geth fleets. The dreadnought is the antenna that makes it the CP for all Reaper control of the geth.
For optimal results, the boradcasting soruce (Reaper) must remain in close range to the receever (Dreadnought), and a booster (Legion) to send the signal all across geth space.

2. um..... Base on Rannoch is pretty spicific. And again, optimal control is by placing the receving unit close to the broadcasting control server. Also, BOTH Legion on the Normandy, and Shepard in the geth server, say Reaper, with NO plural, as in single Reaper controling the geth. Just like Harbinger with the Collectors.

3. I still don't hear the infromation being volenteered without asking.
Volenteering that info would have been stating "Shepard-Commander, there is something we must tell you. It is a matter of importance." Something along the lines of that. It's ANYTHING but a "false reading."
Also, Legion saying he interfaced with "The Old Machine" no plural means that he knew it was a single Reaper behind this, and that the broadcasting point was close.

4. AGAIN, time to monolouge to Shepard about how the geth ended up like this when THAT is the information that can wait till back at the Normandy, while Reaper Base info would be most relevent to this situation. Knowing that doing this WOULDN'T get the Migrant Fleet safe would still be good to know, thank you very much. So NO, it IS either a lapse in logic, or deception to have a bargining chip to make sure he avoides being Xen's disection experiment.

5. Shepard DOES in the geth server, and on the trip to Rannoch. And again when talking about how the Reaper upgrades changed the geth.

[remydat]

S.A.K

I already gave you reasons.  Leejin with Reaper Code saves them.  I repeat he saves them.  Give me one good reason they should keep letting the council f**k them?  The Quarians lost 2 billions lives because they refused to stand up against their organic overlords and their organic overlords decided to further punish them, lol.  At what point should they say, maybe we should side with the Geth and get rid of these a**holes?

And FYI, Xen is still prejudiced.  She was allowed to rise to the rank of Admiral which tells me it is ok to be prejudiced against the Geth within Quarian society.  In the world I live in which is supposedly less advanced, someone openly expressing the opinions Xen expresses against another group would result in her immediate dismissal.  Immediate dismissal.

And whether Leejin is a him or an it is irrelevant.  If I call my car a she and you try to get pissy with me telling me it is an it then my response will be, "it says get the f**k out and walk."  Shepard called Leejin him and Tali gave him attitude.  You don't come on my ship asking me to bail your a** out because you started a war and didn't tell me and then try to talk to me like I am stupid in front of your Admiral friends.  She is lucky she is my love interest because she would have gotten the Javik, "Throw it out of the airlock."  treatment otherwise.  Now that is my being funny but the point is Shep can call Legion whatever he wants.  Tali can do the same.  There was no need to try and give Shep attitude about his choice of words as if he must call Leejin what you call him.  That tells me she had an axe to grind.

Except when Xen creates a weapon and they think they can win, they attack.  Except when Gherell does not know about the Reaper Code, he refuses to stand down and attacks.  So Legion is 3 for 3 at a minimum.  The only reason peace is ever achieved is Gherel finds out he can't win because in both the Renegade and Paragon options you tell him about the Reaper Code.  And they don't shoot Legion because Shep is with him. Shep is with him during Tali's loyalty mission in which they need Shep's help and Shep is with him on his own ship in ME3 in which they need Shep and Legion's help. 

As for hating them for existing.  How else do you explain trying to kill something because it asked if he had a soul?  They became self aware ie came into existence as a sentient species and the Quarian response was to kill them all based in part on the Council law that says they should not exist.  What is confusing about that?

And not sure what you think I admitted.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ remy: I'm not getting emotional. You are.

There were more than 2 billion Quarians. They don't say but given the size of the home world and comparing with other home world populations one can infer that. I extrapolate that there were approximately 9 billion Quarians on Rannoch alone, since that was the height of Quarian civilization. If you include the colonies, there were millions more. That is probably why they managed 15-17 million.

You and I make decisions differently. You are an idealist. I, on the other hand, am a pragmatist. We will never see eye to eye. If it were me, personally as Shepard, there in that situation which was the way I role played it the during my first game I looked at it like this:

* It didn't matter who was right or wrong, and I didn't care about the treaty.
* I knew Tali for 3 years.
* I knew Legion for a couple of months.
* I had never been shot at by the Quarians (the dreadnought was my fault)
* I had positive experiences with every Quarian I'd met.
* I had been shot at by Geth for every time I ran into one EXCEPT for Legion.
* I had to make a quick call.
* I chose the Quarians.

The end.

Really where have I insulted you?  You told me to get something through my thick skull?  Yeah that is emotional bro.  2 billiion is the number other Quarian supporters speculated.  I didn't come up with it so if you want to debate numbers, you can take it up with them.

And the bold basically says I choose the Quarians because they are my friends.  That is understandable but that is an inherently biased decision.  And I don't care if you chose friendship over morality but I just find it funny you accussed me of considering only stuff favorable to the Geth only to admit you never had any real intention of looking at the facts and being objective because your decision boils down to Tali is my friend.

Modifié par remydat, 10 avril 2013 - 06:38 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

I already gave you reasons.  Leejin with Reaper Code saves them.  I repeat he saves them.  Give me one good reason they should keep letting the council f**k them?  The Quarians lost 2 billions lives because they refused to stand up against their organic overlords and their organic overlords decided to further punish them, lol.  At what point should they say, maybe we should side with the Geth and get rid of these a**holes?

Er what? Are you alright?

And FYI, Xen is still prejudiced.  She was allowed to rise to the rank of Admiral which tells me it is ok to be prejudiced against the Geth within Quarian society.  In the world I live in which is supposedly less advanced, someone openly expressing the opinions Xen expresses against another group would result in her immediate dismissal.  Immediate dismissal.

That don't make any sense either. They haven't even met any Geth for over 200 years so how could it effect her becoming an admiral?

And whether Leejin is a him or an it is irrelevant.  If I call my car a she and you try to get pissy with me telling me it is an it then my response will be, "it says get the f**k out and walk."  Shepard called Leejin him and Tali gave him attitude.  You don't come on my ship asking me to bail your a** out because you started a war and didn't tell me and then try to talk to me like I am stupid in front of your Admiral friends.  She is lucky she is my love interest because she would have gotten the Javik, "Throw it out of the airlock."  treatment otherwise.  Now that is my being funny but the point is Shep can call Legion whatever he wants.  Tali can do the same.  There was no need to try and give Shep attitude about his choice of words as if he must call Leejin what you call him.  That tells me she had an axe to grind.

I guess this Leejin is Legion right? Calling Legion he or she doesn't make any sense. Specially since Geth refer to themselves as "it". "It" is simply the right word... period.

Except when Xen creates a weapon and they think they can win, they attack.  Except when Gherell does not know about the Reaper Code, he refuses to stand down and attacks.  So Legion is 3 for 3 at a minimum.  The only reason peace is ever achieved is Gherel finds out he can't win because in both the Renegade and Paragon options you tell him about the Reaper Code.  And they don't shoot Legion because Shep is with him. Shep is with him during Tali's loyalty mission in which they need Shep's help and Shep is with him on his own ship in ME3 in which they need Shep and Legion's help. 

Admiralty board did not approve of testing weapons on live Geth. They were about to exile Tali remember? And like you kept saying, it's a war and Geth are not open for peace. Why can't they use that weapon? Gerrel has no reason not to believe Geth will attack once they recover. Maybe he stands down when he learn Geth won't attack. How do you prove that's not the case. You were saying, Geth destroyed every  organic they encountered because they might be gathering intel. Legion could do the same (maybe it did). It was stupid of Shepard to bring a Geth there and Quarians not shooting it on sight means they are not prejudiced as you think they are. And you are using that double standards again.

As for hating them for existing.  How else do you explain trying to kill something because it asked if he had a soul? They became self aware ie came into existence as a sentient species and the Quarian response was to kill them all based in part on the Council law that says they should not exist.  What is confusing about that?

That's back in the Morning war, I already said starting it was Quarians fault several times. Are you blind? That's not hate anyway. It's fear because they have broken the law and fearing the unknown. Isn't if f*cking obvious I was talking about the current situation?

And not sure what you think I admitted.

That was about  Geth being stupid to build the Dyson sphere around that star and you using double standards.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ remy: I'm not getting emotional. You are.

There were more than 2 billion Quarians. They don't say but given the size of the home world and comparing with other home world populations one can infer that. I extrapolate that there were approximately 9 billion Quarians on Rannoch alone, since that was the height of Quarian civilization. If you include the colonies, there were millions more. That is probably why they managed 15-17 million.

You and I make decisions differently. You are an idealist. I, on the other hand, am a pragmatist. We will never see eye to eye. If it were me, personally as Shepard, there in that situation which was the way I role played it the during my first game I looked at it like this:

EDIT: Admiral Hackett's orders were to deliver him the Quarian fleet.
* It didn't matter who was right or wrong, and I didn't care about the treaty.
* I knew Tali for 3 years.
* I knew Legion for a couple of months.
* I had never been shot at by the Quarians (the dreadnought was my fault)
* I had positive experiences with every Quarian I'd met.
* I had been shot at by Geth for every time I ran into one EXCEPT for Legion.
* I had to make a quick call.
* I chose the Quarians.

The end.

Really where have I insulted you?  You told me to get something through my thick skull?  Yeah that is emotional bro.  2 billiion is the number other Quarian supporters speculated.  I didn't come up with it so if you want to debate numbers, you can take it up with them.

And the bold basically says I choose the Quarians because they are my friends.  That is understandable but that is an inherently biased decision.  And I don't care if you chose friendship over morality but I just find it funny you accussed me of considering only stuff favorable to the Geth only to admit you never had any real intention of looking at the facts and being objective because your decision boils down to Tali is my friend.

I'm not a bro. 

You've insulted me by calling my morals into question. You don't know me.

I had exactly the scenario asked in the topic of this thread in my first play of ME3. I used my first play of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I did not have the right conditions for peace (grayed out). My orders were to deliver the Quarian fleet to Admiral Hackett. Tali was a friend of mine. I'd had positive interactions with the Quarians.They were a known quantity.

The Geth were an unknown quantity. I didn't know them. I didn't know how they were going to behave. I wasn't going to take a chance.

The pragmatic choice is to go with the known quantity. I was also completing my mission in my play of the story.

I made my decision, and I'm very comfortable with it. Subsequent play throughs of the story I've made peace, chose destroy, and MEHEM.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 avril 2013 - 07:49 .

[Eckswhyzed]

@silverexile

I still don't see why the geth need 100% of the star's energy. My interpretation is that they build a statite swarm with a low enough density to have a minimal impact on the light reaching Rannoch. Or they could not place statites along Rannoch's orbital plane, absorbing a large amount of the star's energy while having no effect on the starlight reaching Rannoch. The hypothesis that the geth wish to absorb 100% of the star's energy is not compatible with the geth working to preserve Rannoch's ecology, and is not supported by anything in-game (as far as I can tell).

@remydat

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...
Really where have I insulted you?  You told me to get something through my thick skull?  Yeah that is emotional bro.  2 billiion is the number other Quarian supporters speculated.  I didn't come up with it so if you want to debate numbers, you can take it up with them.

And the bold basically says I choose the Quarians because they are my friends.  That is understandable but that is an inherently biased decision.  And I don't care if you chose friendship over morality but I just find it funny you accussed me of considering only stuff favorable to the Geth only to admit you never had any real intention of looking at the facts and being objective because your decision boils down to Tali is my friend.

How is it bias? There is a war going on and Shepard needs people who he can trust. Geth or even Legion (who dies anyway) have done nothing to prove they are particularly trust worthy. All intel they have provided benifits the Geth in some way. There is no morally correct choice in this point. You are going to loose one species, so it would come down to other facts.

[remydat]

silverexile17s

Look I don't have a kid.  However, I have siblings who I am 10-15 years older than.  When I was 20 and they were 5 if my people were planning on strapping guns to their homes and going to war then I am volunteerig to go into Geth space and see if peace is possible.  Why the f**k would I be concerned about that when the alternative is my 5 year old brother and 2 year old sister having to go to war? Why the f**k would I care if anyone told me peace is not possible?  It doesn't matter Silver.  It really does not.  All that matters right now is my 5 year old brother and 2 year old sister will have to go to war.  So yes I am going to try peace despite not having a reason to believe it will work.  I will try peace for all 6 months and if I get killed then I have older brothers and sisters that would do the same to protect their younger brother and sister.  I have parents who would do the same.  I don't know of a single person that cares about their family that would not have been like "f**k what you are saying, we are going to get these f**king toasters at a table and see if this can be worked out.  Get Shep and Tali on the phone right now"

So unless you can find me a parent or sibling that did this, all your excuses are bullsh*t to me Silver.  They don't matter.  All you are telling me is that these a**hole adults were too chicken sh*t to risk their lives for their kids and so took their kids to war.  You could write a 120 page dissertation on why the Quarians had no reason to trust the Geth and aside from using it for toilet paper or to heat my fireplace, it is useless.  They had 6 months according to you and not a single adult save Tali bothered to do anything. 

If you set up shop in a hospital fire at an enemy and expect they will not fire back because it has civilians in it then you are likely guilty of using Civilians as Human Shields which is a WAR CRIME.  So there are really only 2 options.  Either rules of war say they are enemy combatants or if not, the Quarians just tried to use Human Shields and are guilty of a WAR CRIME in doing so.  The Rules of war does not hold the Geth accoutable for the dick move the Quarians pulled with their chidlren.  I suggest you read up on the rules of civilians in war before responding back. 

And the decision I was referring to is the decision to listen to Tali or not when she just disabled the Reaper Signal and with Shep saved them from extinction.  That did not happen 6 months ago.  That happened right there and they had to decide whether to trust the Geth expert who just saved their a**es.  I also find it funny that when Legon saves the Geth's a**es, they decide to honor his sacrifice and agree to peace once the Quarians stand down.  They have the power with the RC to wipe them off the planet but no they trust Legion.  

Also I remind you that if Kaiden/Ashley don't trust me during the Citadel mission they die.  See how it works.  If you want to not trust me when your life is not at stake then go ahead.  If you want to not trust me or Tali when your life is at stake then you will die.   Frankly I was disgusted with Kaiden and Ashley so they tend to get bullets to the head or kicked off my Squad if they survive the Citadel mission.  Ashley especially as she was my LI in one of my playthroughs mainly because you can't romance Tali in ME1.  So yeah trying to use them in this argument doesn't really help.   I will not get into anyone else because no one else had their lives at stake so it is irrelevant.

I think you are confusing what we are discussing.  I am discssuing them deciding to stand down or not when Tali gives the order.  At that point Shep, Tali and Leejin have saved them.  Gherel says Shepard you did it, the Geth have stopped firing and are completely vulnerable.  Everyone knows the mission was a success.  So when Tali speaks and says stand down, they have to decide in that moment in that moment..  Although trust is perhaps a bad word.  The only reason Gherel ever refuses is because without learning about the RC, he thinks he can win.  That is what this is about.  It is not that he thinks Tali or Shep is not trustworthy.  He simply thinks he can win so doesn't want to listen to her.  So all this trust stuff is just a red herring.  The only reason he ever stops is because he learns he can't win.  It is illogical to say he doesn't trust Tali when she says stand down but magically he trusts Tali and Shep when they say the Geth have RC, lol.  

There is no proof those diplomatic ships were unarmed.  The Normandy is used as a diplomatic ship and it is armed.  Find me proof in the game that these ships were unarmed and not using claims of peace in order to gather intell safely on the Geth positions in the PV in advance of a war?  You can communicate long range in the MEU.  If the enemy has an army outside my borders and sends a ship in my borders then I could easily interpret that as a scout ship even if they claim they come in peace.  Are the Geth suppose to just blindly trust them because they said it?  If they were scouting for a war do you think they would tell the Geth?

And deciding not to fire does make a difference.  Everytime the Quarians stop firing in the game I play, peace is achieved.  Everytime.  Do you have a different game?

Also, for 300 years the Council denied them a planet?  300 years.  Why did they not go to war with the organic a**holes. Oh that's right they are organic.  Let's go kill synthetics instead.  Funny how that works.

Leejin found the base.  EDI did not.  That is what the game says.  Anything else by you or me is head cannon because it is not in the game.  I repeat Leejin found the base not EDI.  Leejin. 

[silverexile17s]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@silverexile

I still don't see why the geth need 100% of the star's energy. My interpretation is that they build a statite swarm with a low enough density to have a minimal impact on the light reaching Rannoch. Or they could not place statites along Rannoch's orbital plane, absorbing a large amount of the star's energy while having no effect on the starlight reaching Rannoch. The hypothesis that the geth wish to absorb 100% of the star's energy is not compatible with the geth working to preserve Rannoch's ecology, and is not supported by anything in-game (as far as I can tell).

@remydat

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

The geth are driven to reach technological perfection. They only way they can reach their apex is to fully harness Tikkun's output. Also, in 300 years they made a sattlite swarm that already was distuingishable as a Dyson Sphere, and that was paaearantly only the start. It would likely be many, many more sattlites around the sun before the megastructure was complete. Also, they already did, if the patter of a Dyson Sphere was already taking shape. And again, that statement of preserving Rannoch's ecology was ALREADY disproven when it was revealed that the geth were building outposts, servers, bases, defenses, and had over a billion platforms stationed on the surface. So the preserving thing is ALREADY out the window.

[remydat]

S.A.K

You guys are harping on their enemies being dicks to them yet the Quarians let the Council ie their supposed allies f**k them over for 300 years.  So I joked the Quarians would have been better off with synthetics.  What is the point of accepting the Council's rule if they screw you over at every turn?

So if a someone says another race is sub-human and should be enslaved, you think humans in our society will be ok with it as long as they haven't meant the race in question?

Call my care a he or she doesn't make since but people still do it.  If you are sitting in my car, you will have the common courtesy to let me call it what I want just like if I was in you car I would do the same. 

Did the board vote for war when Xen created her weapon?  And no one said the Geth are not open for peace.  The Quarians need to prove they want peace not the Geth.  The Quarians were the aggressor and lost.  They have to be the ones that make concessions not the Geth.  That is how it works.

If the game wanted me to believe he stands down when he learns the Geth won't attack then the solution would be to have a Renegade option where the Reaper Code is mentioned and Shep says they will die and have a paragon option where the RC is not mentioned and Shep just appeals to them on the basis the Geth don't want to fight them.  We we got was both options referencing the RC.  To pretend that it does not factor in Gherel's decision in both scenarios would be silly.  And I will be perfectly honest in saying I would have preferred the paragon option not mention the RC and to have done just what I said as it would make Gherel seem less like a douchebag who only stops because he learns he can't win.

I am saying I don't know why they shot these ships down and there could be any number of reasons.  It is open for speculation.  I pretty much know why the Quarians do not shoot Legion ie Shep forces them not to.  So no it is not a double stadard.  The game leaves it unclear as to what happened with those ships.  The game makes it perfectly clear why the Quarians don't shoot Legion.  It has nothing to do with them not being prejudice and everything to do with Shep.  If Shep was not there, Legion would have been fired upon period.  You basically want me to treat speculation the same as game evidence.

Fear of the other, the unknown, or someone who is different is the basis for most prejudice and hatred.  And the current situation is a direct result of that original conflict.  Trying to pretend they are separate is silly.  

But I don't think they were stupid for building the sphere around that star.  a) it is their terroritory and I think they ultimately were not opposed to living in peace with the Quarians hence why they have been cleaning up the planet.  The Geth's purpose was to serve the Quarians.  They did it pre-MW and if you choose peace they very quickly go back to serving them.  All the discussion post peace is not about what the Quarians do for the Geth, it is about what the Geth do for the Quarians.  The Geth never wanted war with their creators.  The Geth who was asked to shut down refused because he said he coudl still SERVE.  The Quarians let their fear and a** kissing of the Council create war.

And no there is no double standard.  What the game says trumps any of our speculation.  Period.

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3. I still don't hear the infromation being volenteered without asking.
Volenteering that info would have been stating "Shepard-Commander, there is something we must tell you. It is a matter of importance." Something along the lines of that. It's ANYTHING but a "false reading."
Also, Legion saying he interfaced with "The Old Machine" no plural means that he knew it was a single Reaper behind this, and that the broadcasting point was close.
...

So because the conversation went, L:"Let me help you", R:"Ok, what can you tell me about X Y X?", L:"Well, XYZ is 123" and not just L:"Let me help you. XYZ is 123" Legion is not volunteering information, and only responding under direct questioning? That just doesn't make any sense as a conclusion, and, yes, it is a plainly obvious false reading of the scene.

As for everything else you posted, I responded to it already in the quote of mine you posted; you simply repeated your argument with no/flimsy supporting facts.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 avril 2013 - 08:26 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

[I'm not a bro. 

You've insulted me by calling my morals into question. You don't know me.

I had exactly the scenario asked in the topic of this thread in my first play of ME3. I used my first play of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I did not have the right conditions for peace (grayed out). My orders were to deliver the Quarian fleet to Admiral Hackett. Tali was a friend of mine. I'd had positive interactions with the Quarians.They were a known quantity.

The Geth were an unknown quantity. I didn't know them. I didn't know how they were going to behave. I wasn't going to take a chance.

The pragmatic choice is to go with the known quantity. I was also completing my mission in my play of the story.

I made my decision, and I'm very comfortable with it. Subsequent play throughs of the story I've made peace, chose destroy, and MEHEM.

Did you know me when you said I had a thick skull?  

And I said you can make what ever decision you want.  However the bold is bias plain and simple.  None of the above attempts to determine innocence or guilt.  You basically said Tali is a friend and the other guys I don't know.  So I will ignore who was right and who was wrong and base my decision on who I am familiar with.

That would never fly in a court of law.  A court ie an impartial and non-biased system of justice would decide based on who they believe is guilty.  Period.  Friendships, postive interactions, not trusting the person I don't know is 100% irrelevant in a court because they have nothing to do with guilt.  They have to do with personal bias.  We all have such biases.  There are plenty of things my friends can get away with that others cannot not.  Why because they are my friends.  But that is bias.  I know and acknowledge that.

So I am not sure your beef here.  You position is the very definition of bias.  It can't be considered anything else because you have stated clearly your reasoning and none of it includes who you consider guilty.  Once again, you are free to make that choice but getting mad at me for calling it what it is is odd.

S.A.K wrote...

How is it bias? There is a war going on and Shepard needs people who he can trust. Geth or even Legion (who dies anyway) have done nothing to prove they are particularly trust worthy. All intel they have provided benifits the Geth in some way. There is no morally correct choice in this point. You are going to loose one species, so it would come down to other facts.

See above.  The better question is how is it not bias.  Look at the defintion of Bias and tell me why it isn't bias?  

Bias is an inclination of temperament outlook to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives in reference to objects, people, or groups.

Sorry were there organics in the game that provided intell that didn't benefit them in some way?  Did the Quarians provide anything that benefited the Geth.  So I don't understand this logic.  Let us blame the Geth because they did something mutually beneficially to them and the the Quarians.  Let's ignore the fact that the Quarians have not done anything mutually beneficial to them and the Geth.

There is no morally clean choice.  You can still attempt to base a decision on who you believe is guilty as opposed to who you like more.  Again,  a court wouldn't just say well let's just decide based on who we like.

Modifié par remydat, 10 avril 2013 - 08:37 .