4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Eckswhyzed]

silverexile17s wrote...

The geth are driven to reach technological perfection. They only way they can reach their apex is to fully harness Tikkun's output.

[citation needed]

silverexile17s wrote...
Also, in 300 years they made a sattlite swarm that already was distuingishable as a Dyson Sphere, and that was paaearantly only the start. It would likely be many, many more sattlites around the sun before the megastructure was complete. Also, they already did, if the patter of a Dyson Sphere was already taking shape. And again, that statement of preserving Rannoch's ecology was ALREADY disproven when it was revealed that the geth were building outposts, servers, bases, defenses, and had over a billion platforms stationed on the surface. So the preserving thing is ALREADY out the window.

You still haven't told me where it says the Geth are planning to build a full sphere. As for the ecology part, I don't care what else the Geth are doing on Rannoch. Only the ecology matters for my argument:

P1. The geth are working to preserve Rannoch's ecology (from the Codex)
P2. A full Dyson sphere would ruin Rannoch's ecology.
P3. The geth don't want to ruin their hard work.
Therefore:
C. The geth are not building a full Dyson sphere.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@silverexile

I still don't see why the geth need 100% of the star's energy. My interpretation is that they build a statite swarm with a low enough density to have a minimal impact on the light reaching Rannoch. Or they could not place statites along Rannoch's orbital plane, absorbing a large amount of the star's energy while having no effect on the starlight reaching Rannoch. The hypothesis that the geth wish to absorb 100% of the star's energy is not compatible with the geth working to preserve Rannoch's ecology, and is not supported by anything in-game (as far as I can tell).

@remydat

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

The geth are driven to reach technological perfection. They only way they can reach their apex is to fully harness Tikkun's output. Also, in 300 years they made a sattlite swarm that already was distuingishable as a Dyson Sphere, and that was paaearantly only the start. It would likely be many, many more sattlites around the sun before the megastructure was complete. Also, they already did, if the patter of a Dyson Sphere was already taking shape. And again, that statement of preserving Rannoch's ecology was ALREADY disproven when it was revealed that the geth were building outposts, servers, bases, defenses, and had over a billion platforms stationed on the surface. So the preserving thing is ALREADY out the window.

Stupid design decisions that goes against previously stated values and priorities is not technological perfection. Technological perfection is the ability to create develop and design your technology to best serve your goals, and needs and wants.
If the Geth want's to maintain Rannoch, which they have clearly put a lot of effort into then it would be stupid not to include that consideration in their technological designs.
Absorbing 100% of a stars output is not perfection in itself unless there are no other considerations. The geth have clearly spent a lot of resources restoring and maintaining the planet of thier origin, the plant life alone would have died if they hadn't spent time and work keeping the flora alive and restoring damaged environments.
When someone puts so mcuh value into something like a garden then they don't burry it all in cement, all of a sudden.
That's not technological perfection, that's stupidity.
Silverexile has no idea what he's talking about, he's just adamant about making the Geth look bad by inventing new reasons to hate them.
When you design a car then you have to take several factors into consideration, like seating, airventilation, windows or viewscreens, safety, and several other factors that have little to do with just making the car go fast from point A to point B. Technological perfection can't be achived if key factors which added value are forgotten in the design, then you got a very flawed product.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 avril 2013 - 08:45 .

[remydat]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

Yes and two of them still exist in the scenario of a planet within a Dyson Bubble.  The light has to pass by the planet before it hits the bubble ie conduction and the Sun has solar winds which as I said would swirl around the air especially now that the solar winds are not blowing out into space but trapped within the bubble as well.

So you have trapped a planet within a bubble where you have also trapped the heat and the solar winds.  I see no way for the temperature not to rise because convection and conduction would be taking place within the bubble and before it hits the bubble.  It's a continuous stream of energy so it is a continuous process of conduction and convection prior to the light hitting the bubble.

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

Yes and two of them still exist in the scenario of a planet within a Dyson Bubble.  The light has to pass by the planet before it hits the bubble ie conduction and the Sun has solar winds which as I said would swirl around the air especially now that the solar winds are not blowing out into space but trapped within the bubble as well.

So you have trapped a planet within a bubble where you have also trapped the heat and the solar winds.  I see no way for the temperature not to rise because convection and conduction would be taking place within the bubble and before it hits the bubble.  It's a continuous stream of energy so it is a continuous process of conduction and convection prior to the light hitting the bubble.

Rannoch is not within the sphere, you can see that on the map of the star system. I didn't say anything when I read your previous posts because I was certain someone would correct you.
The sateliteswarms are placed in an orbit at around where Venus would be in our system, or mercury. Probably somwwhere in between because otherwise the heat buildup would melt any known material and cause massive gravitational and magnetic stress on the structure in addition to the heatbuildup.. Which woudln't be good for electronics or technology.
Also Rannochs sun is only 90% of our suns mass and gives off a lower amount of radiation than our sun.
It was probably a very ideal star for such a project.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 avril 2013 - 11:57 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

You guys are harping on their enemies being dicks to them yet the Quarians let the Council ie their supposed allies f**k them over for 300 years.  So I joked the Quarians would have been better off with synthetics.  What is the point of accepting the Council's rule if they screw you over at every turn?

So if a someone says another race is sub-human and should be enslaved, you think humans in our society will be ok with it as long as they haven't meant the race in question?

Call my care a he or she doesn't make since but people still do it.  If you are sitting in my car, you will have the common courtesy to let me call it what I want just like if I was in you car I would do the same.

Then it's a matter of opinion and doesn't do anything to prove what you said before. Quarians have no reason to be fond of the Geth and "it" is the correct word and they use it.

Did the board vote for war when Xen created her weapon?  And no one said the Geth are not open for peace.  The Quarians need to prove they want peace not the Geth.  The Quarians were the aggressor and lost.  They have to be the ones that make concessions not the Geth.  That is how it works.

Don't know if they voted. Maybe she created it and later told the others. But it's not clearly stated. And how do you figure Quarians are the once to instigate peace? Both sides have done terrible things to each other. And it's kinda hard to talk peace when the other side is blocking communication.

If the game wanted me to believe he stands down when he learns the Geth won't attack then the solution would be to have a Renegade option where the Reaper Code is mentioned and Shep says they will die and have a paragon option where the RC is not mentioned and Shep just appeals to them on the basis the Geth don't want to fight them.  We we got was both options referencing the RC.  To pretend that it does not factor in Gherel's decision in both scenarios would be silly.  And I will be perfectly honest in saying I would have preferred the paragon option not mention the RC and to have done just what I said as it would make Gherel seem less like a douchebag who only stops because he learns he can't win.

Again it's your opinion and the game doens't provide that. Both refer to the RC and both refer to Geth won't fire. Like I said, it can't be proven.

I am saying I don't know why they shot these ships down and there could be any number of reasons.  It is open for speculation.  I pretty much know why the Quarians do not shoot Legion ie Shep forces them not to.  So no it is not a double stadard.  The game leaves it unclear as to what happened with those ships.  The game makes it perfectly clear why the Quarians don't shoot Legion.  It has nothing to do with them not being prejudice and everything to do with Shep.  If Shep was not there, Legion would have been fired upon period.  You basically want me to treat speculation the same as game evidence.

I did not speculate. You did. Geth firing on those ships because they suspected hostile activity was your speculation. Maybe Geth just shoot any organic. Legion is not shot is a given parameter in the game.

Fear of the other, the unknown, or someone who is different is the basis for most prejudice and hatred.  And the current situation is a direct result of that original conflict.  Trying to pretend they are separate is silly. 

I am still talking about the current situation, not the MW. And that does not do anything to prove Quarians hate Geth for existing. If you actually listened in Tali's trial, you'll see most don't even won't the war. The war is about take back their planet anyway. Nothing ingame says it's because they hate the Geth. Posibility of peace also deny your statement.

But I don't think they were stupid for building the sphere around that star.  a) it is their terroritory and I think they ultimately were not opposed to living in peace with the Quarians hence why they have been cleaning up the planet.  The Geth's purpose was to serve the Quarians.  They did it pre-MW and if you choose peace they very quickly go back to serving them.  All the discussion post peace is not about what the Quarians do for the Geth, it is about what the Geth do for the Quarians.  The Geth never wanted war with their creators.  The Geth who was asked to shut down refused because he said he coudl still SERVE.  The Quarians let their fear and a** kissing of the Council create war.

What does the second poin have to do with this? First point doesn't make it look any less stupid. Were the Geth so stupid to believe Quarians will never try to retake Rannoch?

And no there is no double standard.  What the game says trumps any of our speculation.  Period.

I explained this one before. You said Geth were the victors of the war and they don't have to attept peace. Then hold Quarians responsible for trying to take back what they lost. Geth never gave them any other choice.

Modifié par S.A.K, 10 avril 2013 - 09:17 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3. I still don't hear the infromation being volenteered without asking.
Volenteering that info would have been stating "Shepard-Commander, there is something we must tell you. It is a matter of importance." Something along the lines of that. It's ANYTHING but a "false reading."
Also, Legion saying he interfaced with "The Old Machine" no plural means that he knew it was a single Reaper behind this, and that the broadcasting point was close.
...

So because the conversation went, L:"Let me help you", R:"Ok, what can you tell me about X Y X?", L:"Well, XYZ is 123" and not just L:"Let me help you. XYZ is 123" Legion is not volunteering information, and only responding under direct questioning? That just doesn't make any sense as a conclusion, and, yes, it is a plainly obvious false reading of the scene.

As for everything else you posted, I responded to it already in the quote of mine you posted; you simply repeated your argument with no/flimsy supporting facts.

Because this is information we needed like an hour ago when we were in the position to TRACK and FIND it. This was something he should have "voulunteered" long ago, something he should have spoken about INSTANTLY.

For the other things, YOU are the one that had no facts or information supporting your argument.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

What does the second poin have to do with this? First point doesn't make it look any less stupid. Were the Geth so stupid to believe Quarians will never try to retake Rannoch?

The Geth were probably stupid enough to think a peaceful solution might one day be possible, when the Quarians would calm down their hatred.
It's only normal that people fail to understand how upset other people get when they loose something and how hard it is to forgive.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@silverexile

I still don't see why the geth need 100% of the star's energy. My interpretation is that they build a statite swarm with a low enough density to have a minimal impact on the light reaching Rannoch. Or they could not place statites along Rannoch's orbital plane, absorbing a large amount of the star's energy while having no effect on the starlight reaching Rannoch. The hypothesis that the geth wish to absorb 100% of the star's energy is not compatible with the geth working to preserve Rannoch's ecology, and is not supported by anything in-game (as far as I can tell).

@remydat

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

The geth are driven to reach technological perfection. They only way they can reach their apex is to fully harness Tikkun's output. Also, in 300 years they made a sattlite swarm that already was distuingishable as a Dyson Sphere, and that was paaearantly only the start. It would likely be many, many more sattlites around the sun before the megastructure was complete. Also, they already did, if the patter of a Dyson Sphere was already taking shape. And again, that statement of preserving Rannoch's ecology was ALREADY disproven when it was revealed that the geth were building outposts, servers, bases, defenses, and had over a billion platforms stationed on the surface. So the preserving thing is ALREADY out the window.

Stupid design decisions that goes against previously stated values and priorities is not technological perfection. Technological perfection is the ability to create develop and design your technology to best serve your goals, and needs and wants.
If the Geth want's to maintain Rannoch, which they have clearly put a lot of effort into then it would be stupid not to include that consideration in their technological designs.
Absorbing 100% of a stars output is not perfection in itself unless there are no other considerations. The geth have clearly spent a lot of resources restoring and maintaining the planet of thier origin, the plant life alone would have died if they hadn't spent time and work keeping the flora alive and restoring damaged environments.
When someone puts so mcuh value into something like a garden then they don't burry it all in cement, all of a sudden.
That's not technological perfection, that's stupidity.
Silverexile has no idea what he's talking about, he's just adamant about making the Geth look bad by inventing new reasons to hate them.
When you design a car then you have to take several factors into consideration, like seating, airventilation, windows or viewscreens, safety, and several other factors that have little to do with just making the car go fast from point A to point B. Technological perfection can't be achived if key factors which added value are forgotten in the design, then you got a very flawed product.

But then they changed all that and created military bases and servers on Rannoch anyway, and made it a fortress world.
And it's more like leaving flowers at a grave, and then making peace and moving on, letting the land be used to move to their future. They are living beings, it's stupid to think they won't move on from their remorse sooner or later.
The geth do not need climate or ecology, so no, there ARE no other considerations.

Perfection and technological advancement is the reason for living, as stated BY LEGION HIMSELF IN ME2.

So NO, I DO know what I was talking about. And last I recall, you said that since Rannoch is an arid world with an orange star that gives off less energy then Earth's. That means that Tikkun ISN'T an ideal system for it after all.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s

Look I don't have a kid.  However, I have siblings who I am 10-15 years older than.  When I was 20 and they were 5 if my people were planning on strapping guns to their homes and going to war then I am volunteerig to go into Geth space and see if peace is possible.  Why the f**k would I be concerned about that when the alternative is my 5 year old brother and 2 year old sister having to go to war? Why the f**k would I care if anyone told me peace is not possible?  It doesn't matter Silver.  It really does not.  All that matters right now is my 5 year old brother and 2 year old sister will have to go to war.  So yes I am going to try peace despite not having a reason to believe it will work.  I will try peace for all 6 months and if I get killed then I have older brothers and sisters that would do the same to protect their younger brother and sister.  I have parents who would do the same.  I don't know of a single person that cares about their family that would not have been like "f**k what you are saying, we are going to get these f**king toasters at a table and see if this can be worked out.  Get Shep and Tali on the phone right now"

So unless you can find me a parent or sibling that did this, all your excuses are bullsh*t to me Silver.  They don't matter.  All you are telling me is that these a**hole adults were too chicken sh*t to risk their lives for their kids and so took their kids to war.  You could write a 120 page dissertation on why the Quarians had no reason to trust the Geth and aside from using it for toilet paper or to heat my fireplace, it is useless.  They had 6 months according to you and not a single adult save Tali bothered to do anything. 

If you set up shop in a hospital fire at an enemy and expect they will not fire back because it has civilians in it then you are likely guilty of using Civilians as Human Shields which is a WAR CRIME.  So there are really only 2 options.  Either rules of war say they are enemy combatants or if not, the Quarians just tried to use Human Shields and are guilty of a WAR CRIME in doing so.  The Rules of war does not hold the Geth accoutable for the dick move the Quarians pulled with their chidlren.  I suggest you read up on the rules of civilians in war before responding back. 

And the decision I was referring to is the decision to listen to Tali or not when she just disabled the Reaper Signal and with Shep saved them from extinction.  That did not happen 6 months ago.  That happened right there and they had to decide whether to trust the Geth expert who just saved their a**es.  I also find it funny that when Legon saves the Geth's a**es, they decide to honor his sacrifice and agree to peace once the Quarians stand down.  They have the power with the RC to wipe them off the planet but no they trust Legion.  

Also I remind you that if Kaiden/Ashley don't trust me during the Citadel mission they die.  See how it works.  If you want to not trust me when your life is not at stake then go ahead.  If you want to not trust me or Tali when your life is at stake then you will die.   Frankly I was disgusted with Kaiden and Ashley so they tend to get bullets to the head or kicked off my Squad if they survive the Citadel mission.  Ashley especially as she was my LI in one of my playthroughs mainly because you can't romance Tali in ME1.  So yeah trying to use them in this argument doesn't really help.   I will not get into anyone else because no one else had their lives at stake so it is irrelevant.

I think you are confusing what we are discussing.  I am discssuing them deciding to stand down or not when Tali gives the order.  At that point Shep, Tali and Leejin have saved them.  Gherel says Shepard you did it, the Geth have stopped firing and are completely vulnerable.  Everyone knows the mission was a success.  So when Tali speaks and says stand down, they have to decide in that moment in that moment..  Although trust is perhaps a bad word.  The only reason Gherel ever refuses is because without learning about the RC, he thinks he can win.  That is what this is about.  It is not that he thinks Tali or Shep is not trustworthy.  He simply thinks he can win so doesn't want to listen to her.  So all this trust stuff is just a red herring.  The only reason he ever stops is because he learns he can't win.  It is illogical to say he doesn't trust Tali when she says stand down but magically he trusts Tali and Shep when they say the Geth have RC, lol.  

There is no proof those diplomatic ships were unarmed.  The Normandy is used as a diplomatic ship and it is armed.  Find me proof in the game that these ships were unarmed and not using claims of peace in order to gather intell safely on the Geth positions in the PV in advance of a war?  You can communicate long range in the MEU.  If the enemy has an army outside my borders and sends a ship in my borders then I could easily interpret that as a scout ship even if they claim they come in peace.  Are the Geth suppose to just blindly trust them because they said it?  If they were scouting for a war do you think they would tell the Geth?

And deciding not to fire does make a difference.  Everytime the Quarians stop firing in the game I play, peace is achieved.  Everytime.  Do you have a different game?

Also, for 300 years the Council denied them a planet?  300 years.  Why did they not go to war with the organic a**holes. Oh that's right they are organic.  Let's go kill synthetics instead.  Funny how that works.

Leejin found the base.  EDI did not.  That is what the game says.  Anything else by you or me is head cannon because it is not in the game.  I repeat Leejin found the base not EDI.  Leejin. 

LOL.
You really are clueless, aren't you? Blind idealism is just as bad as warmongering, especally when it's prejudiced idealism.
First off, if said enemy has (a) Killed everyone that ever tried to speak with them before, ( showed no remorse to killing billions of your people, and © were witnessed to have assaulted the top political and military power in massive numbers, with the intent of toppling it, massicaring everyone and anyone in their way, then chances are that you are going to be branded a nut, especally when you have NO PROOF to back up any of it. And AGAIN, YOU wouldn;t have SEEN the things Shepard has. Imagine that you never played ME2. Never met Legion. Never learned of a Heretic split. What would your view of the geth be THEN? You again act like, all of a sudden, you would have this magic insight that suddenly told you "they're friendly." You are assuming that  all this information is just suddenly going to be actively avalible to the avarage person. Guess what? In a normal situatioin, you would know NOTHING about any of this. Nothing about any Heretic Split, any geth schism, or any geth wanting peace. You would not know, and therefore, know NOTHING besides what everyone else knows - that the geth have killed everyone that ever tried it before, and that geth fleets attacked the Citadel, Eden Prime, and Feros.
And also, if your homeland was suffering from massive overpollution, and your siblings can't survive without breath masks 24/7 and everything is falling apart at the seems, and that a massive threat was coming to wipe you all out, and don't care, then congradualtions: YOU JUST KILLED YOUR SIBLINGS ANYWAY.  If you STAY, they will die. That is NOT a possibility, NOT up for debate. It is an ASSURANCE. A DEFENITE. 100% going to happen if you stay as you are. If you attack the others -which have shown NO inclination to wanting negotiation, you get a future, and a chance to live, not just for you, but for them.
One rouge is not proof, as any number of things (defection, trickery, reprograming, ect) could be the reason for it, and therfore said rouge member of the enemy is not a reliable source of information.
SO the choice is: Stay, and have a 100% of having to watch your siblings be melted alive in front of you, or viloently butchered.
Or, take them against a faction that has demsonstrated 100% hostility, and 0% negotiation to you, and thanks to your government's tech, have a 90% chance of your siblings having a healthy and safe future.
But hey, if you think waiting to watch your siblings ment in front of you is worth not fighting an enemy that has shown clear hostile intent to anyone and everyone that comes near them, oh well. You'd rather watch them die a horrible death then take the chance to save them. All the more power to you.

I mean, really, you do not get it. Even as far forward as ME2, the geth were actively killing anything in their borders, like that science team on Haestrom. They butchered the scientists without mercy. And those WEREN'T Heretics, they were True Geth, and the shoot even if Legion is around. The moment you set foot into the Veil, boradcasting peace transmissions, you will be shot down just like the dozens of others that did the exact same thing.
The ironic thing, is that those reasons - family - are exactally the reason why the quarians DID THIS. They are NO DIFFERENT THEN WHAT YOU JUST SAID. You just said you would do anything for them. THAT'S what the quarians are doing for their people - going against the geth in a war they DO NOT WANT, but are doing anyway for their FAMILIES. It's ironic that the reason you used - love and concern, doing thing you don't want to, taking risks you don't want to for family - that reason you used VALADATES the quarians. YOU valadated them. Concern for their race is what made them do this - do the only thing they thought they COULD do to ensure their future, and their families futures.
You talk about peace as if you would even know it was an option. You would not HAVE that information. You would not be AWARE such things as a Heretic split existed. Therefore, you would not even KNOW to try peace, because you WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE THE NOTION IN YOUR HEAD. If the quarians DID know any of this, they WOULDN'T have shot down Legion and Tali.
All you have done with that "acting out of love for your family" tanget is VALIDATE AND VINDICTE  the reasons the quarians did this.

All you are doing is BSing yourself, because you have actually just stated why the quarians were RIGHT in their attempt just now.  All those reasons are why the war was commenced - for the wellfare of the quarians' familes and their entire race. And AGAIN, you make false, incorrect assumptions. You assume that the quarians KNEW that the geth would side with the Reapers, or that their viral weapon would fail. They DIDN'T assume any of that. They well and truly believed they had it all lined up. You can't begrudge them for not expecting the unexpected, like having the weapon suddenly cease functioning on the geth.
Also, look at the bible. Moses brought woman and childeran on a dangerous journey, and risked their lives to reach their promised land. Why? Because there was NO OTHER CHOICE. If you didn't bring them with you, they DIE. Do you NOT get that? If they were left, they would DIE. They cannot split the fleet up because having their entire population on-board makes them interdependant on being close to each-other. WHY ELSE do you think the fleet has to stop and commit to a decsion before acting on it? Because they are like Moses and his followers - they must move as one, or they will fall die as one. United we stand, divided we fall is much more litteral for the quarians. It's almost as fatal as the geth, ironicly, as, just like the geth, seperation is the quarian's bane, and interdependancey is there strength.

And what if NITHER of them have a choice but to be near one-another? What if the CIVILIANS were the one that set up camp there, because it was the only safe place to go? Or when they are always intermingeling, Like at an Embassy? Or a military camp that's near a city? Or if you are actively transporting Civilians to a safe zone, and have no other way to do it besides moving with them? THEN what? That's NOT a war crime. And attacking people in such positions is NOT war. It's MASS SLAUGHTER. You are really that callus, that sociopathic that you would mow down innocents that wanted nothing to do with war, just because of a few military personel? You would carpet-bomb civilian centers to get to the few dozen? You would butcher millions to kill a thousand? Kill a billion to stop a thousand? Cruel doesn't even begin to describe that.

AGAIN, you misunderstand entirely. Faith in their abliity to get a job done is one thing, and never in question. Faith in their beliefs and claims on the enemy faction is another thing entirely.
Look at Miranda Lawson, Jacob Taylor, Kelly Chambers. Does having personal faith in them instantly mean you MUST put personal faith in the Illusive Man? I certinly don't think so. And again with Anderson. Him having faith in you getting the job done does NOT mean he must, or will, put faith in your backer, Cerberus.
This is a concept you repeatedly failed to grasp.
Also, saving their lives is one thing. But asking them to do an action that NEVER WORKED BEFORE IN 300 YEARS is another thing entirely.
And plus, Cerberus saved humanity by helping Shepard stop the Collectors. By your logic, that means that Cerberus should be made full legalized members of the Alliance and TIM a public hero. Saving you does not instantly make you trustworthy when you have a massive history of running roughshod over everyone consistantly and without fail. Suddeny saying that's all changed will make them more suspicious of you then inclined to trust you.
Also, that was when BOTH sides simoultaniously stand down. If you read your Codex. you would see that it states the geth powered down AFTER the quarians pulled back. NOT before.

Again, you show calousness. You would just blindly shoot a close friend because they have a flawed ideal of you, that YOU YOURSELF gave them, and that YOU YOURSELF failed to correct them on. There would be NO ONE to blame but yourself. Saying it's their fault is lying to yourself. It;s either trust you or you shoot them. That's the mark of a ruthless sociopath. YOU gave them an incorect view of them with your actions. And YOU failed to correct them. YOU casued them to turn against you in that senerio, just as the geth drove everyone against them with their actions. Like you, the geth would have no one to blame but themselves for that. If anything, it only ever shows reasons NOT to trust you if you put down friends so callously. And just like the geth, you PUT YOURSELF in that situation with them, and have only yourself to blame. "I am Shepard" means squat. Reputation alone can mean nothing in cases like that. The entire galaxy forsakes you because of Cerberus and your Reaper warnings. "I am Shepard" doen not translate into "I am the law and always right." Because TIM saved people too, from the Collectors by supporting you, and I don't see anyone trusting him.

As I have shown, YOU are the only one that was ever confussed. Tali NEVER specified a reason or motivation in her order. Shepard screaming "the Reapers are coming" was ignored because - No proof. Same here. The entire galaxy didn't listen to Shepard's "The Reapers are coming" order, and no one ever bothered to ask SHEPARD about why he/she thought that. I can count on one hand the number of people that actually asked why Shepard thought that way, among them Anderson, Hackett, and Udina.
And I also recall Joker anouncing that Sovergien was completely vunerable, yet heard no objections to killing it from anyone. According to you, they should have let Sovergien recover and leave.
The geth have killed evreryone that ever came unarmed in peace. They were witnessed to hhave assaulted the Citadel and Alliance space. They butuchered billions needlessly in the Morning War. As far as the quarians know, every geth is ruthless, orgnaic-hating, and all took arms for the Reapers by all accepting the code upgrades.
Also, it ISN'T about the RC. He NEVER learns about that. Just "the geth are about to return to full strength." Unless he thinks the geth CAN be reasoned with, he would have kept foring because he would still think that the geth will soon kill them. If Shepard had ONLY said "the geth are about to return to full strength," he would have redoubled his attack to stop them. When he learns that they do not want to fight, he STOPPES, because now, for the first time, he sees that there IS another way. Once again, YOU have failed to conprehend or understand. The only red herrings ever cast is yours.

It's in books. Mass Effect: Revelation, and Mass Effect: Ascencion.  Also Tali tells you that everyone that ever went into the Veil was killed instantly by the geth. Also, the books SPICIFICALLY LISTED THEM AS UNARMED DIPLOMATIC PEACE ENVOYS THAT TRIED HAILING THE GETH, BEFORE BEING PROMPTLY DESTORYED.
And the Normandy was used as a Diplomatic Ship for the turians, salarians, and krogan ONLY for the reason that it's neutral ground, because it represents the fourth, neutral party between the three groups - the Alliance.
Also, I find it incredibly unlikely with their precision ladar/radar and sensor pings and scanners, the geth wouldn't be able to tell these ships were unarmed. Things like that are relitively easy for basic standardized scanners to pick up, and the geth's sensor tech is renowned for being light-years ahead of the curve. Only a few things, like the glare form being on the far side of a star, would mess with them But, as stated, these ships were NOT spy ships. They were diplomats.

Do you ever talk to any geth but Legion? Do you have any proof that the geth fleet above isn't firing back? You again make the assumption that "vunerble" means "not actively shooting."

And the Council, spicifically the turians, took down the korgan with ruthless tactics and bioweapons. One salarian bioweapon could kill the entire Migrant Fleet in a day. You really do NOT understand ANYTHING in this, do you? The Council has the combined power of the three largest races in the galaxy. Or did you not notice how the Alliance had to kiss their asses every day because they didn't have the military might to stand against them. The quarians are about as threatening to the Council as the hanar. Beating the geth on the other hand is the key to reclaiming everything - their world, their future, their culture.
Funny how you tried to tote the synthetic point when it had  NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. The geth being synthetic had NOTHING to do with retaking Rannoch. It had everything to do with wanting their goddamn world back.

Legion found the base using Normandy's equipment and sensors and information streams.
Which EDI is hardroutted and hardwired into every aspect of. Ergo, she provided him with all his info:whistle:
So that's headcannon.... HOW?

All thorughout this, you have not demonstrated anything but these traits:Cruel, Callous, Prejudice, Sociopathic, Injust, Amoral, Ruthless, Prejudice, Uncaring. These things describe you're views on organics. You act like the geth are gospels They are NOT. You act like mass slaughter is okay for them, but death to any organic that tries it, as if being synthetic gives them a free pass. It DOESN'T. All throughout, you have acted like the geth are perfect abused cherubs that never did wrong, and never screwed up, and that everyone in the galaxy is naturally evil. That's NOT TRUE.
You have demonstrated zero reasoniblity. If you cannot find a way to let go fo your prejudced views, and realizing you are persicuting the quarains for the SAME traits that you revear the geth for using, then you will never have a valid point here.
Good-night.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 10 avril 2013 - 09:42 .

[shodiswe]

Also when you talk to Tali after you made peace it's also apparent that there are tensions on both sides, I don't think the Geth are completely emotionless or that they have forgotten about the billions of Geth that the Quarians just killed, but they are trying to put it behind them.
Legion exhibited shame, pride and other emotions even if Geth don't seem to like the idea.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@silverexile

I still don't see why the geth need 100% of the star's energy. My interpretation is that they build a statite swarm with a low enough density to have a minimal impact on the light reaching Rannoch. Or they could not place statites along Rannoch's orbital plane, absorbing a large amount of the star's energy while having no effect on the starlight reaching Rannoch. The hypothesis that the geth wish to absorb 100% of the star's energy is not compatible with the geth working to preserve Rannoch's ecology, and is not supported by anything in-game (as far as I can tell).

@remydat

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

The geth are driven to reach technological perfection. They only way they can reach their apex is to fully harness Tikkun's output. Also, in 300 years they made a sattlite swarm that already was distuingishable as a Dyson Sphere, and that was paaearantly only the start. It would likely be many, many more sattlites around the sun before the megastructure was complete. Also, they already did, if the patter of a Dyson Sphere was already taking shape. And again, that statement of preserving Rannoch's ecology was ALREADY disproven when it was revealed that the geth were building outposts, servers, bases, defenses, and had over a billion platforms stationed on the surface. So the preserving thing is ALREADY out the window.

Stupid design decisions that goes against previously stated values and priorities is not technological perfection. Technological perfection is the ability to create develop and design your technology to best serve your goals, and needs and wants.
If the Geth want's to maintain Rannoch, which they have clearly put a lot of effort into then it would be stupid not to include that consideration in their technological designs.
Absorbing 100% of a stars output is not perfection in itself unless there are no other considerations. The geth have clearly spent a lot of resources restoring and maintaining the planet of thier origin, the plant life alone would have died if they hadn't spent time and work keeping the flora alive and restoring damaged environments.
When someone puts so mcuh value into something like a garden then they don't burry it all in cement, all of a sudden.
That's not technological perfection, that's stupidity.
Silverexile has no idea what he's talking about, he's just adamant about making the Geth look bad by inventing new reasons to hate them.
When you design a car then you have to take several factors into consideration, like seating, airventilation, windows or viewscreens, safety, and several other factors that have little to do with just making the car go fast from point A to point B. Technological perfection can't be achived if key factors which added value are forgotten in the design, then you got a very flawed product.

But then they changed all that and created military bases and servers on Rannoch anyway, and made it a fortress world.
And it's more like leaving flowers at a grave, and then making peace and moving on, letting the land be used to move to their future. They are living beings, it's stupid to think they won't move on from their remorse sooner or later.
The geth do not need climate or ecology, so no, there ARE no other considerations.

Perfection and technological advancement is the reason for living, as stated BY LEGION HIMSELF IN ME2.

So NO, I DO know what I was talking about. And last I recall, you said that since Rannoch is an arid world with an orange star that gives off less energy then Earth's. That means that Tikkun ISN'T an ideal system for it after all.

No, it's ideal because of that fact, it's easier to construct satelites around a less active star, also there arn't a lot of inner starsystem planetary bodies that will cause gravitational shifts as they pass near the satelites.

The closest planet to their sun is Rannoch.

They also got an asteroidfield rightoutside Rannoch that provides cheap construction materials for their superproject and it's easier to build if you got materials in system than if you have to import everything, it's been mentioned before in the ME series.

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong about their construction plans, noone in game seemed the least bit concerned about it.
The starsystem is ideal with an relatively manageble sun and plenty of construction materials in system.
It's also the system wich originaly held the largest amount of Geth habitants.
Makes perfect sense.

It's a much better system than Sol for such a project. I would pick it over Sol any day.

Modifié par shodiswe, 10 avril 2013 - 10:09 .

[Eckswhyzed]

remydat wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

There are 3 mechanisms for heat transfer: Convection (think circulation of warm air), conduction (touching a warm heater) and radiation. Seeing as space is empty, we can ignore convection and conduction. Light from Tikkun hitting a Dyson sphere will be absorbed (not reflected), so if Rannoch is on the inside of a 100% efficient sphere there will be no extra heating.

Yes and two of them still exist in the scenario of a planet within a Dyson Bubble.  The light has to pass by the planet before it hits the bubble ie conduction and the Sun has solar winds which as I said would swirl around the air especially now that the solar winds are not blowing out into space but trapped within the bubble as well.

So you have trapped a planet within a bubble where you have also trapped the heat and the solar winds.  I see no way for the temperature not to rise because convection and conduction would be taking place within the bubble and before it hits the bubble.  It's a continuous stream of energy so it is a continuous process of conduction and convection prior to the light hitting the bubble.

The solar wind isn't responsible for heating anything, as the charged particles are deflected by planets' magnetic fields. Seeing as Rannoch still has an atmosphere that hasn't been blasted away by the solar wind, we can conclude that it has an active magnetosphere, and we can pretty much ignore the solar wind.

"Light passing by a planet" isn't responsible for heating anything.
1. Conduction (or heat conduction) is the transfer of heat energy by microscopic diffusion and collisions of particles or quasi-particles within a body due to a temperature gradient.

-no particles to diffuse in empty space implies no conduction will occur

2.Convective heat transfer, or convection, is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids.

-no fluid in space implies no convection


So the only heating of Rannoch is going to occur from radiation, i.e. light actually hitting the planet. So any light that wouldn't normally hit the planet has to be reflected off something. And if the Dyson sphere is 100% efficient, it will be absorbing all of the light that hits it and not reflecting anything, therefore Rannoch will not be heated.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

[I'm not a bro. 

You've insulted me by calling my morals into question. You don't know me.

I had exactly the scenario asked in the topic of this thread in my first play of ME3. I used my first play of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I did not have the right conditions for peace (grayed out). My orders were to deliver the Quarian fleet to Admiral Hackett. Tali was a friend of mine. I'd had positive interactions with the Quarians.They were a known quantity.

The Geth were an unknown quantity. I didn't know them. I didn't know how they were going to behave. I wasn't going to take a chance.

The pragmatic choice is to go with the known quantity. I was also completing my mission in my play of the story.

I made my decision, and I'm very comfortable with it. Subsequent play throughs of the story I've made peace, chose destroy, and MEHEM.

Did you know me when you said I had a thick skull?  

And I said you can make what ever decision you want.  However the bold is bias plain and simple.  None of the above attempts to determine innocence or guilt.  You basically said Tali is a friend and the other guys I don't know.  So I will ignore who was right and who was wrong and base my decision on who I am familiar with.

That would never fly in a court of law.  A court ie an impartial and non-biased system of justice would decide based on who they believe is guilty.  Period.  Friendships, postive interactions, not trusting the person I don't know is 100% irrelevant in a court because they have nothing to do with guilt.  They have to do with personal bias.  We all have such biases.  There are plenty of things my friends can get away with that others cannot not.  Why because they are my friends.  But that is bias.  I know and acknowledge that.

So I am not sure your beef here.  You position is the very definition of bias.  It can't be considered anything else because you have stated clearly your reasoning and none of it includes who you consider guilty.  Once again, you are free to make that choice but getting mad at me for calling it what it is is odd.

You didn't even acknowledge the difference between Geth VI and Legion. You kept harping on some entirely different tangent. That was why I kept going over and over and over it. It didn't seem to be getting through to you. When one is attemping to have a discussion, some things need to be acknowledged. That was one point that I felt needed to be acknowledged. I'll take that as a point won.

I'm not mad at you. Settle down. Take about three steps back. Take a deep breath.

A court of law has never even entered into this discussion. Are you a lawyer or something like that? Because while you may have been making your decision based upon an "impartial judgement" I was not. I was never pretending to be.

Now I don't know how you play the game, but I role play my character's psychological profile. I not only pick it, but I write up a dossier, sort of a little short story about her. I only played ME3 three times. This was my Colonist/Ruthless. Others were Earthborn/Sole Survivor; and an Earthborn/Ruthless. I don't have a paragon play through of ME3. I do of ME2. The one we're examining below was a Paragade. Very pragmatic. Took shortcuts, did things you probably wouldn't agree with a lot of the time, but in the end usually did the right thing.

She was following orders from her commanding officer, Admiral Steven Hackett who told me to deliver to him the Quarian Fleet at all costs. That's her mission. The Quarian admirals come aboard the Normandy. They started the war. She's got a mission. She thought Koris was kind of a suit-wetter in ME2 about the Geth. So when the thing about the treaty was brought up she hand waved it. It's too late to worry about that. She's got to figure out how to complete her mission. You follow me? A court of law or who is right or who is wrong isn't entering the picture. Completing her mission is. Who is right or who is wrong is not her call.

I know two things: The Quarians have attacked. (bad); The Geth have sided with the reapers (bad).

She's got to help get the Quarians out of the situation and get that fleet to Hackett. That's her job. So she talked to Javik and he tells her about the Zha and Zha'til. Troublesome. Then she talked to Garrus and Liara. Then she picked her team and did the dreadnought. She told Gerrel to fire as soon as she got the shields down. He did. They managed to escape. Barely, but she couldn't fault Gerrel for it.

Then she did the stuff on the surface. She didn't like the explanation why the Quarians were in suits in the Consensus when they shouldn't have been. Intellectually I knew why -- artistic laziness, but my Shepard is a Colonist/Ruthless, and I prewrote her profile before starting ME1. I role played her accordingly. She wouldn't have looked for "justice". She's a bit on the paranoid side. Relationships are very important to her. She hates Batarians with a passion. Is not fond of Geth either. She saw what they did on Feros and on Eden Prime. Heretic, regular, they all look alike. She saved the council. You've got to understand the profile.

Legion's holding something back and misleading. Legion's lied. Bad idea. She called it about the lies, and didn't trust it after. Legion was not going to upload that code. Legion agreed not to upload the code. Legion lied again. When Legion started the upload, she stopped it. Legion started uploading again, so she made a pass at peace, no dice, so she stopped the upload, Legion wouldn't stop. Tali did the backstab, and she shot Legion 3 times. That ended it.

Hackett got his fleet. Mission successful. EDI was upset, and she told EDI "they were siding with the Reapers. Is that what you want?"

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

[I'm not a bro. 

You've insulted me by calling my morals into question. You don't know me.

I had exactly the scenario asked in the topic of this thread in my first play of ME3. I used my first play of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I did not have the right conditions for peace (grayed out). My orders were to deliver the Quarian fleet to Admiral Hackett. Tali was a friend of mine. I'd had positive interactions with the Quarians.They were a known quantity.

The Geth were an unknown quantity. I didn't know them. I didn't know how they were going to behave. I wasn't going to take a chance.

The pragmatic choice is to go with the known quantity. I was also completing my mission in my play of the story.

I made my decision, and I'm very comfortable with it. Subsequent play throughs of the story I've made peace, chose destroy, and MEHEM.

Did you know me when you said I had a thick skull?  

And I said you can make what ever decision you want.  However the bold is bias plain and simple.  None of the above attempts to determine innocence or guilt.  You basically said Tali is a friend and the other guys I don't know.  So I will ignore who was right and who was wrong and base my decision on who I am familiar with.

That would never fly in a court of law.  A court ie an impartial and non-biased system of justice would decide based on who they believe is guilty.  Period.  Friendships, postive interactions, not trusting the person I don't know is 100% irrelevant in a court because they have nothing to do with guilt.  They have to do with personal bias.  We all have such biases.  There are plenty of things my friends can get away with that others cannot not.  Why because they are my friends.  But that is bias.  I know and acknowledge that.

So I am not sure your beef here.  You position is the very definition of bias.  It can't be considered anything else because you have stated clearly your reasoning and none of it includes who you consider guilty.  Once again, you are free to make that choice but getting mad at me for calling it what it is is odd.

You didn't even acknowledge the difference between Geth VI and Legion. You kept harping on some entirely different tangent. That was why I kept going over and over and over it. It didn't seem to be getting through to you. When one is attemping to have a discussion, some things need to be acknowledged. That was one point that I felt needed to be acknowledged. I'll take that as a point won.

I'm not mad at you. Settle down. Take about three steps back. Take a deep breath.

A court of law has never even entered into this discussion. Are you a lawyer or something like that? Because while you may have been making your decision based upon an "impartial judgement" I was not. I was never pretending to be.

Now I don't know how you play the game, but I role play my character's psychological profile. I not only pick it, but I write up a dossier, sort of a little short story about her. I only played ME3 three times. This was my Colonist/Ruthless. Others were Earthborn/Sole Survivor; and an Earthborn/Ruthless. I don't have a paragon play through of ME3. I do of ME2. The one we're examining below was a Paragade. Very pragmatic. Took shortcuts, did things you probably wouldn't agree with a lot of the time, but in the end usually did the right thing.

She was following orders from her commanding officer, Admiral Steven Hackett who told me to deliver to him the Quarian Fleet at all costs. That's her mission. The Quarian admirals come aboard the Normandy. They started the war. She's got a mission. She thought Koris was kind of a suit-wetter in ME2 about the Geth. So when the thing about the treaty was brought up she hand waved it. It's too late to worry about that. She's got to figure out how to complete her mission. You follow me? A court of law or who is right or who is wrong isn't entering the picture. Completing her mission is. Who is right or who is wrong is not her call.

I know two things: The Quarians have attacked. (bad); The Geth have sided with the reapers (bad).

She's got to help get the Quarians out of the situation and get that fleet to Hackett. That's her job. So she talked to Javik and he tells her about the Zha and Zha'til. Troublesome. Then she talked to Garrus and Liara. Then she picked her team and did the dreadnought. She told Gerrel to fire as soon as she got the shields down. He did. They managed to escape. Barely, but she couldn't fault Gerrel for it.

Then she did the stuff on the surface. She didn't like the explanation why the Quarians were in suits in the Consensus when they shouldn't have been. Intellectually I knew why -- artistic laziness, but my Shepard is a Colonist/Ruthless, and I prewrote her profile before starting ME1. I role played her accordingly. She wouldn't have looked for "justice". She's a bit on the paranoid side. Relationships are very important to her. She hates Batarians with a passion. Is not fond of Geth either. She saw what they did on Feros and on Eden Prime. Heretic, regular, they all look alike. She saved the council. You've got to understand the profile.

Legion's holding something back and misleading. Legion's lied. Bad idea. She called it about the lies, and didn't trust it after. Legion was not going to upload that code. Legion agreed not to upload the code. Legion lied again. When Legion started the upload, she stopped it. Legion started uploading again, so she made a pass at peace, no dice, so she stopped the upload, Legion wouldn't stop. Tali did the backstab, and she shot Legion 3 times. That ended it.

Hackett got his fleet. Mission successful. EDI was upset, and she told EDI "they were siding with the Reapers. Is that what you want?"

Legion has experiences that the replacement geth llacks, it's also a different person, each and every geth is unique. It's like Solus and Padok wiiks. 
They share certain racial attributes and views, but each one of them is unique. That geth prime that talks to you is another individual aswell. Along with billions of others of its kind.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

How is it bias? There is a war going on and Shepard needs people who he can trust. Geth or even Legion (who dies anyway) have done nothing to prove they are particularly trust worthy. All intel they have provided benifits the Geth in some way. There is no morally correct choice in this point. You are going to loose one species, so it would come down to other facts.

See above.  The better question is how is it not bias.  Look at the defintion of Bias and tell me why it isn't bias?  

Bias is an inclination of temperament outlook to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives in reference to objects, people, or groups.

Sorry were there organics in the game that provided intell that didn't benefit them in some way?  Did the Quarians provide anything that benefited the Geth.  So I don't understand this logic.  Let us blame the Geth because they did something mutually beneficially to them and the the Quarians.  Let's ignore the fact that the Quarians have not done anything mutually beneficial to them and the Geth.

There is no morally clean choice.  You can still attempt to base a decision on who you believe is guilty as opposed to who you like more.  Again,  a court wouldn't just say well let's just decide based on who we like.

I know the definition of bias. You don't have to explain that one to me. I was talking about the relationship between Shepard and the other 2 parties. From Shepard's perspective, there are more Quarians he can trust than the Geth. And I already explained why I consider Quarians to be less guilty by now. Which faction is more trust worthy is a very valid factor when choosing between them. Specially in the middle of a war. And I said 'other facts' meaning this is not the only one. Please try undestanding what is being said before commenting on something or you risk looking stupid.

Modifié par S.A.K, 10 avril 2013 - 01:21 .

[Wayning_Star]

This has turned into the ultimate "Troll by Outtext" thread. Most of which is subjective association, i.e. nit picking. I'm amaze that it's gotten as much attention as it has. Going exactly no where really. Kind of an alternate IT thread with super race Geth robot, garnish. Poor bioware servers deserve a better ending..lol

[Obadiah]

silverexile17s wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
...
3. I still don't hear the infromation being volenteered without asking.
Volenteering that info would have been stating "Shepard-Commander, there is something we must tell you. It is a matter of importance." Something along the lines of that. It's ANYTHING but a "false reading."
Also, Legion saying he interfaced with "The Old Machine" no plural means that he knew it was a single Reaper behind this, and that the broadcasting point was close.
...

So because the conversation went, L:"Let me help you", R:"Ok, what can you tell me about X Y X?", L:"Well, XYZ is 123" and not just L:"Let me help you. XYZ is 123" Legion is not volunteering information, and only responding under direct questioning? That just doesn't make any sense as a conclusion, and, yes, it is a plainly obvious false reading of the scene.

As for everything else you posted, I responded to it already in the quote of mine you posted; you simply repeated your argument with no/flimsy supporting facts.

Because this is information we needed like an hour ago when we were in the position to TRACK and FIND it. This was something he should have "voulunteered" long ago, something he should have spoken about INSTANTLY.
...

Shep wasn't in a position to track and find the Reaper; Shep was in a position to disable to signal and stop the Geth from destroying the Quarians. Repeating yourself in an absolute fashion with upper cased words doesn't make it true.

This "track the signal" idea is pure head-cannon. From the conversation with Legion on the Dreadnaught, Shepard already knew Legion was being used to boost a Reaper signal. If tracking that signal back to the source was a good idea, Shepard could have done that anyway.

- The fact that Legion interfaced with a single Reaper is irrelevant, since Reapers do not need to be nearby in order to transmit a signal, as evidenced by the Reaper to Collector control in ME2
- The fact that there was an secondard base nearby with a Reaper to Geth signal that was not in place (and so untrackable) is irrelevant, since, even when Shep knew about the single Reaper and the Rannoch Base later on, no one knew there was a Reaper there until it showed up.

So, in summary, no one would have thought to track a signal back to the secondary base which was not in use.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
For the other things, YOU are the one that had no facts or information supporting your argument.

Well, I actually have a conversation quote in my response. You just ignored that and repeated yourself.

Now, I get the sense, that you're just going to repeat yourself again, so good luck with that.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 avril 2013 - 01:45 .

[remydat]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

The solar wind isn't responsible for heating anything, as the charged particles are deflected by planets' magnetic fields. Seeing as Rannoch still has an atmosphere that hasn't been blasted away by the solar wind, we can conclude that it has an active magnetosphere, and we can pretty much ignore the solar wind.

"Light passing by a planet" isn't responsible for heating anything.
1. Conduction (or heat conduction) is the transfer of heat energy by microscopic diffusion and collisions of particles or quasi-particles within a body due to a temperature gradient.

-no particles to diffuse in empty space implies no conduction will occur

2.Convective heat transfer, or convection, is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids.

-no fluid in space implies no convection


So the only heating of Rannoch is going to occur from radiation, i.e. light actually hitting the planet. So any light that wouldn't normally hit the planet has to be reflected off something. And if the Dyson sphere is 100% efficient, it will be absorbing all of the light that hits it and not reflecting anything, therefore Rannoch will not be heated.

http://www.ehow.com/...fect-earth.html

The majority of solar winds get dispersed into space.  Planets like mercury and venus have massive geo-magnetic storms because the solar winds are more intense on those planets.  You have now trapped those solar winds within a bubble that Earth is in as well.  So you have potentially increased the intensity of the solar winds which means they may now be intense enough to affect Earths magnetic field and degrade it like what happens on Mercury and Venus.  Solar winds were responsible for changing the magnetic poles on earth in the past and you have increased the amount of them and their intensity.

The planet has particles.  The Solar winds are massive amounts of charged particles.  The planet is 70% fluids on the surface.  Again, the planet is in the bubble.  The light has to hit the planet and hit the charged particles of the solar winds before getting to the bubble.  So not all the energy makes it to the bubble.  The bubble is only 100% efficient with respect to the energy that makes it there.  However, you have a planet and solar winds in the way so they have to catch some of the heat.  You have now increased the Solar Winds exponentially because before most of it was shooting into space as there wasn't a bubble for it to bounce off of.  You know create a bubble so the solar winds are not dispersing into space, they are bouncing and swirling within the bubble and now there is enough of it to degrade earths magnetic field.

So I am not trying to be difficult here.  I am simply thinking about how this thought experiment would work in real life.  A Dyson Swarm is clearly different because it is not a complete bubble but a complete bubble with a planet in it would in my mind result in wrecking a planet's magnetic field and result in swirling charged particles drawn to that degraded magnetic field because they are charged and thus all sorts of heat getting trapped by those particles and the particles and fluids on earth before they ever hit the bubble.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I know the definition of bias. You don't have to explain that one to me. I was talking about the relationship between Shepard and the other 2 parties. From Shepard's perspective, there are more Quarians he can trust than the Geth. And I already explained why I consider Quarians to be less guilty by now. Which faction is more trust worthy is a very valid factor when choosing between them. Specially in the middle of a war. And I said 'other facts' meaning this is not the only one. Please try undestanding what is being said before commenting on something or you risk looking stupid.

And I was not talking about your opinion.  I was responding to Shotgun.  Your opinion and your 'other facts' are irrelevant because the comment about bias was directed at Shotgun.  Shotgun said his decision was based on Tali being a friend.  Shotgun said he did not care about right or wrong.  The comment about bias was directed at him not you so your 'other facts' are irrelevant because I did not make the comment to you.

If you make decisions based on Friendship and loyalty and ignore right and wrong it is by definition bias so if you know the defintion then why are you asking me how it is bias? 

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA

The difference between them is irrelevant.  Once again.  A court of law is impartial.  It doesn't care if Leejin is nice and Geth VI is a douchebag.  All it cares about is the circumstances.  Te circumstances in the game is that Geth VI kills the Quarians because he RETURN fire.  Everything else is irrelevant.  He is innocent by virtue of self defense.  Case closed.  You are free to hate him, you are free to be biased and ignore that because Tali is a friend.  I am being objective.  My personal feelings about Geth VI being a douchebag is irrelevant.  He is innocent of any crime because Gherel shot and tried to kill the Geth when they were defenseless.

And who said I am mad at you?  You claimed I insulted you after you just made a comment about my think skull.  I was making a Pot meet kettle observation.  I have been insulted countless times on here.  You don't see me getting worked up about it.  I debate people's arguments and don't make personal comments about them except when they have done so to me and only to make a point.  You can not find a single post of mine where I have insulted someone who did not insult me first.  Why because I am like the Geth.  I can be civil as I have done for most of this thread but you try and start sh*t I will respond.  The decision is yours how you want this discussion to go.

A court of law has been in this discussion from the start because I have been trying to explain my objective opinion.  If all you wanted to say is I like Tali so I choose her then you could have said it.  There have been countless people who say I like Tali or the Geth are just machines and I don't respond to them because that is there choice.  Once you have established your decision is based on your personal feelings or bias, what more is there to discuss.  We are engaged in conversation because you responded to my post and said "Oh this is good, let me jump in."  You decided to give the appearance you were trying to be objective going so far as claiming I was biased against the Geth.  And then when it is all said and done, you basically came right out and said I am biased because I like Tali so I don't care about right and wrong.  If that was your position, you could have saved 5 or 6 pages of debate and said that and I would have let it go just like I let everyone else who comes here and says similar go.

And you are completely free to make you own choices based on you own views.  Once again, you came here and engaged me trying to tell me how I should feel.  Throughout these 100+ pages, I have always said that you can make whatever choices you want.  I simply express my choice and explain it when people want to take issue with MY CHOICE. 

And again, all you are telling me is your Shep is paranoid and biased.  If so then fine do you.  Not sure why you claimed I was being too favorable to the Geth then.  You admit your Shep is paranoid and biased but for some reason, you are going on my case because my Shep isn't?  As if being paranoid and biased is the preferred state.

My Shep is smart enough to know everyone lied in the game to protect themselves.  The Asari have been lying for thousands of years hiding a beacon.  The Turians have been lying for years as they never told the Krogan about the bomb on Tuchanka.  Victus looks me in the eye, begs me to help is son and didn't have the decency to tell me the truth.  The Salarians basically want me to use the Krogan as cannon fodder against the Reapers and lie to them about curing the Genophage.  Tali basically lies by omission by neglecting to tell me about the planned war with the Geth.  She is my damn love interest and she admits she could have told me but refused to because she thought I was too busy.  Really Tali, that is the best excuse you have?  So sorry organics lie to me all the time.  The difference here is Legion's lies helped me and the Quarians period.  If he had told the full truth about the server mission, the Quarians would possibly refuse it and Quarians and Geth would die.  Quarians and Geth.  So he lied to protect his people and the end result was Quarians were saved and he delivered to me Geth Primes for the war.  Legion lied about the Reaper Code.  He used that Reaper Code to help find the signal on Rannoch saving the Quarian's a**es and he throughout the entire Rannoch mission is using that code to hack security and get me to the final objective.  If you were as pragmatic as you say you are you would accept that Legion did the pragmatic thing.  But I guess only organics are allowed to be pragmatic and lie to protect themselves or their people.

Having said all that, do what you want Shotgun.  That is your choice.  However, don't expect me to pick the Quarians just because I like Tali or they are fleshy.  Don't expect me to allow the organics to lie and be pragmatic but then hold it against the machines.  That is not how I am and I never will be.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I know the definition of bias. You don't have to explain that one to me. I was talking about the relationship between Shepard and the other 2 parties. From Shepard's perspective, there are more Quarians he can trust than the Geth. And I already explained why I consider Quarians to be less guilty by now. Which faction is more trust worthy is a very valid factor when choosing between them. Specially in the middle of a war. And I said 'other facts' meaning this is not the only one. Please try undestanding what is being said before commenting on something or you risk looking stupid.

And I was not talking about your opinion.  I was responding to Shotgun.  Your opinion and your 'other facts' are irrelevant because the comment about bias was directed at Shotgun.  Shotgun said his decision was based on Tali being a friend.  Shotgun said he did not care about right or wrong.  The comment about bias was directed at him not you so your 'other facts' are irrelevant because I did not make the comment to you.

If you make decisions based on Friendship and loyalty and ignore right and wrong it is by definition bias so if you know the defintion then why are you asking me how it is bias? 

Oh ok then. Thought you were commenting on my post directly. I am sorry for the miss understanding.

Modifié par S.A.K, 10 avril 2013 - 04:21 .

[remydat]

Silver,

Didn't I tell you a 120 page dissertation is only useful for toilet paper or to heat my fireplace?

I love my siblings.  I will love my kids when I have them.  If the alternative is strapping guns to their homes and taking them to war then I will exhaust all peace options however unrealistic or impossible they appear.  I have nothing to lose by doing so except at worst my life.  My life is worth the lives of my siblings and children.  There is no justification in my world for the Quarians to not have spent those 6 months actively in peace talks.  Tali and Leejin were talking before Lejin went dark and there is no evidence the Quarians ever officially negotiated peace or determined from the Geth their conditiosn for peace.  None.

Further more, the rules of war are clear.  If you arm civilians or place them with military personal then one of two things happens.  They are either enemy combatants or you are guilty of trying to use human shields.  Those are the only two options and under both if they get killed the fault lies with you and not the enemy that kills them.  The former is actually better because you can claim you conscripted them which a government has a right to do.  The latter is worse because human shields can be considered a war crime.  So I don't need you long winded opinion.  I need you to understand the rules of war and explain to me why the Quarians arming or mixing their civilians with the miliatary is not one of the above two things.

And finally, Leejin found the signal, end of story.  There is nothing in the game that says EDI could find it without Leejin

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Oh ok then. Thought you were commenting on my post directly. I am sorry for the miss understanding.

Fair enough.

[AlexMBrennan]

So the only heating of Rannoch is going to occur from radiation, i.e. light actually hitting the planet. So any light that wouldn't normally hit the planet has to be reflected off something. And if the Dyson sphere is 100% efficient, it will be absorbing all of the light that hits it and not reflecting anything, therefore Rannoch will not be heated.

And if you don't build such a sphere then the light that missed the planet will just keep going; if the planet was hospitable before then building a Dyson sphere that perfectly absorbs all radiation will not change anything (and might in fact fry the planet if it doesn't absorb enough)

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I have no problem with them using it.  I have a problem with Shep choosing to say him and Tali giving him attitude about it on his ship in front of the Admirals and when she has her hand out looking for a favor.  That is the issue.  Her choosing to say it to Shep in the manner and situation she did is what I find inappropriate and which I feel gives an indication of her deep seated prejudice.  A normal person with no prejudice would not feel the need to correct Shep in that situation.  It would be like Tali calling Legion it and Shep then making a point to be like No, it's him.  You are free to feel differently but that is how I interpreted it.  

Quarians started the war.  When you start a war and lose, you sue for peace.  That is how it works.  And post ME2, Tali and Legion were talking.  Did the Admiralty Board enter peace negotiations before sending their kids to war?  If so, provide the evidence and I will reconsider my opinion.

Of course it is my opinion.  That is what we are discussing.  Opinions.  If you want to interpret the reference to the RC not influencing Gherel's decision, go right ahead.  I think that is just grasping at straws but you are free to do so.  However, I am under no obligation to ignore that the Quarians have attacked everytime they could win and in the non-peace options Gherel is not told he can't win and fires and in the peace options he is told he can't.  If that was Koris instead of Gherel then I would say Koris stopped shooting because he was told the Geth don't want to kill them because the game makes it clear Koris is that type of character.  The game makes it clear Gherel is more of a hardcore military guy.

We are both speculating.  No reason is given why the Geth shoot down these ship so any inference made is speculation.  Then people were assuming these ships were unarmed just because it says they were diplomatic as if the Normandy doesn't go on diplomatic missions.  For the whole of ME3, the Normandy serves as a diplomatic vessel.  So trying to use these ships as evidence is problematic.  We don't know the truth.  Once again, I know why Legion is not shot.  Shep has like a 2 minute conversation with Kar'Danna where he has to threaten or persuade him not to.

The Council has laws that say the Geth should not exist.  The Quarians attacked them based on those laws and their fear that the Geth would rebel.  Tali says in ME1 that her people thought a rebellion was inevitable.  So the basis for their killing the Geth and all the resulting conflict was not on what the Geth did but on what the Council and Quarians feared they would do because they were sentient AI.  That is prejudice.  They had no reason except their own fears to want to kill the Geth.  Only Koris and the Quarians like Koris seem willing to seriously acknowledge this point.  Everyone else acts like attacking the Geth was no big deal and the Geth should not have driven them off their homeworld because they wanted to eradicate them.  If you seriously acknowledged your ancestors fault and was being objective about it then you would say our ancestors f**ked up and what can we do to fix it.  Instead the Quarians approach it like they are entitled to their homeworld.  They are not.  You lost the right to feel entitled when you tried to eradicated people for asking if they had a soul.  Now if you want that homeworld back you have to earn it either by showing real contrition or sure you can opt for being the aggressors again and going to war.  But there was no contrition from the Quarians except Koris.  Everyone else is was like, yeah we tried to exterminate them but we want our home back.

No, the Geth were stupid to believe the Quarians would be reasonable.  Look they serve their creators pre-MW and they serve their creators post peace.  The Quarians can offer them very little.  They have the ability with the Reaper Code to exterminate the Quarians.  They do not.  Why?  Because while they are machines and logically have no real reason not to exterminate them, they in my opinion always wanted their gods to accept them.  The Quarians for all their flaws still gave them life.  The Geth never really forget that.  Leejin and Javik say flat out unlike organics, synthetics know why they were created.  The Geth know they were created to serve their creators.  They never really show they have a problem doing so.  Leejin says "our gods disowned us so we needed to find a new purpose."  In a post peace world they go back to performing their original purpose.

And no I said the Geth were victors in war and so the Quarians have to make concessions if they want peace.  That is how war works.  Legion and Tali were talking.  They had other options.  And they are free to try and talk back what they lost.  However, if I attack you and take your land and you try and take it back you are seen as the aggrieved party no me.  If you and I both live on the land and you attack me and I kick you off that land because you can't be trust not to attack me and you then later try to get the land back, I am the aggrieved party not you.  An objective person viewing the situation would say the Quarians started wars both times.  Saying that is not a double standard.  They are being held accountable for being the instigator