4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

What did Legion propose and how was trusting him going to doom the Flotilla? Whatever Legion proposed you can investigate. When Legion is recalled, you can go looking for him. Sending a single ship to go find him risks the lives of ADULTS. I would happily volunteer for that mission if the alternative was strapping guns to my siblings or kids home.

And civilians with guns are enemy combatants or human shields. Explain to me why according to rules of war they are not. Otherwise, I don't care about your opinion Silver. You are free to have one but it is irrelevant. Support your opinion with evidence other than your own voice because just like the Quarians with respect to the Geth, you have no credibility with me. The only difference is I am not preparing to send my kids to war.

The rest of your post is just rambling incoherent insults with some pronouns, prepositions and verbs thrown in to give the appearance of sentences. So in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, that's all I am gonna say about that.

Legion and Tali jointly proposed trying to negotiate. I believe we went over that multiple times, and you even tried using that in a point yourself, so IDK how you suddenly don't know about it.
Also, AGIAN, not possible since Legion never gave any proof to back up what he said. And again, one single proprosal to negotiate isn't enough. They only tried ONCE before Legion was recalled to the Consensis. One attempt was never going to cut it, especally without any supporting proof.
Also, Tali DID try to reconnect with him. But physically looking for him was out of the question since no ship that ever went into the Veil survived. That Legion never returned her messages is proof that something happened - something likely pertaining to the geth not supporting Legion's views, given that he never returned her messages. Tali likely figured that the geth disagreed with him and had him drop the idea. Regardless, he never responded, so she gave up on the geth wanting to negotiate, because if they did, then they surely would have allowed Legion to return. After all, you can't tell me that Legion didn't make the same proposal to the geth, who, by their lack of action in contacting the quarians, did the exact same thing the Admirals did and shot down Legion's idea.
You keep saying that the geth have no reason to trust the quarians, but guess what? It works Both Ways. The quarians have no reason to trust the geth. Mutual distrust and lack of supporting evidence from BOTH sides killed the negotiation possibility. NITHER side thought negotiation was possible, or were willing to risk the attempt. So you can't blame the quarians for that.

Again, all you do is continue to be unreasonable. You refuse to acknowledge that there is zero trust from BOTH sides - the geth are NOT innocent in any of this, contrary to your headcannoned beliefs. After all, no ship that ever set foot in the Veil ever returned. And since the geth seemingly prevented Legion from ever returning, nor listened to hem when he likely told them about the chance, it's all too obvious that the geth didn't want to negotiate. So if you HAD gone, you would find that the situation was exactally the same - them distrusting you for the same reason your people distrust them: Lack of cooberating evidence or proof.
However, there is ONE difference: Legion wa NOT shot on sight. Everyone that tried the same with the geth WERE shot on sight. They had no more interest in negotiation, or any more reason to think it was possible then the quarians. Legion does NOT represent the geth: He's independant. An idealist, like Tali and Koris. The other geth probabally treated him the same way Xen, Raan and Gerrel treated Koris - with sceptisism and disbelief.
Had you tried such a thing, having no proof of your words or efforts, they would shoot you on sight and you would have died worthlessly. You would have changed absolutly nothing. Dying a sensless death to try and prove a point does NOT help your family. Standing by them and trying to make sure that they can get a future - THAT does.

Because those civilians DON'T have guns. I find it hard to believe that all 17 million are actively manning active guns and shooting geth. Most of the quarians aren't even FIGHTING - the civilian ships were never even supposed to BE on the front line. They were supposed to hang back and let Gerrel and Raan's ships clear the way without them ever getting involved in the fight.  The geth's upgrades changed everything. If your family is cornerd and being beaten to death, chances are you are going to wish to hell that they didn't die just because you were unable to swallow your damn pride and get a weapon to defend them with.
Your views are nothing short of sociopathicly narrow. The civilians on the Migrant Fleet are noithing but BYSTANDERS. They are not partcipating in the shooting, done by the captians following orders from the military fleet. They weren't even supposed to be actively fighting up-front. They're just... there. It's no different then the Exodus in the bible. Yet you chastize them for it. 
IDK if you comprehend this, but there ARE situations in life where those rules DON'T CUT IT. Like when military are moving through a city on the way to deployment. Or when escorting civilians to safety in their armed transports. That's NOT human shields, because it's NOT against their will, AND its's NOT enemy combatants, because they are not armed nor will they be. That's transport and relocation. What THEN?
You see NONE of the gray in life - just black and white absolutes. NOTHING is that cut and dried in the real world. What you are doing is NOT killing them for War. It's killing them because they're there, and because you can. THAT'S your only excuse for doing it.

So in turn, I ask YOU what makes you say that when I HAVE backed my word and YOU haven't.  You are the one that would rather sit back and let them all die on a fleeting maybe, or run away to die in vain to prove a damn point, then stay and fight for their future. They aren't GOING to be the one's fighting: YOU are.
You again show unresonableness and headcannon logic.  You refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING pertaining to the motiavtions of the quarians. You show amoral responces to the fate of civilians.
I honestly thought you were better then that.  The world isn't as black and white as you claim. You'll likely learn that the hard way at this rate.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 avril 2013 - 07:15 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Kids play nice or I'll have to call Harby in to "Harvest" you so you don't "harvest" each other.

Don't worry we'll make you nice slushies afterwards.

Can I have a berry flavor?

Sure, We call it Soylent Asari.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Kids play nice or I'll have to call Harby in to "Harvest" you so you don't "harvest" each other.

Don't worry we'll make you nice slushies afterwards.

Can I have a berry flavor?

Sure, We call it Soylent Asari.

Hmmm.... Well so long as it's made from the Dantius family.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Kids play nice or I'll have to call Harby in to "Harvest" you so you don't "harvest" each other.

Don't worry we'll make you nice slushies afterwards.

Can I have a berry flavor?

Blue Asari blast
Salarian smoothe
Turian twister
Human zinger
Rocky Krogan shake
Hanar jello-shot
Vouls slurpy
Drell mixer
Quarian coctail
Geth protien shake (with extra iron)
Elcor blend
Vorcha frosty
Yhag sundee

Lots avalible from the Reapers. A new set flavors every 50,000 years. Get em, before they're gone!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Kids play nice or I'll have to call Harby in to "Harvest" you so you don't "harvest" each other.

Don't worry we'll make you nice slushies afterwards.

Can I have a berry flavor?

Blue Asari blast
Salarian smoothe
Turian twister
Human zinger
Rocky Krogan shake
Hanar jello-shot
Vouls slurpy
Drell mixer
Quarian coctail
Geth protien shake (with extra iron)
Elcor blend
Vorcha frosty
Yhag sundee

Lots avalible from the Reapers. A new set flavors every 50,000 years. Get em, before they're gone!

You forgot Batarian Whip

[S.A.K]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish we could have recruited Xen to work on any tech we found. She's a scientist. Anything to give us an edge. The woman was a genius, psychoses not withstanding. But hell set her up with a full lab who knows what she'd come up with. In times like a reaper invasion you overlook things like her beliefs so long as she does her job. For developing the weapon she did? That was her job. Throwing her out the airlock would be a total waste of brainpower.

And her work made it possible for her people to return home. Don't forget that one.

[Remix-General Aetius]

lmao Vega was more popular than Kaidan and Ashley combined? now I know those figures are bull****

[Argolas]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish we could have recruited Xen to work on any tech we found. She's a scientist. Anything to give us an edge. The woman was a genius, psychoses not withstanding. But hell set her up with a full lab who knows what she'd come up with. In times like a reaper invasion you overlook things like her beliefs so long as she does her job. For developing the weapon she did? That was her job. Throwing her out the airlock would be a total waste of brainpower.

Remove her from the goverment and lock her in in a lab would be fine. But as an admiral, she endangers more than she can serve.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Argolas wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish we could have recruited Xen to work on any tech we found. She's a scientist. Anything to give us an edge. The woman was a genius, psychoses not withstanding. But hell set her up with a full lab who knows what she'd come up with. In times like a reaper invasion you overlook things like her beliefs so long as she does her job. For developing the weapon she did? That was her job. Throwing her out the airlock would be a total waste of brainpower.

Remove her from the goverment and lock her in in a lab would be fine. But as an admiral, she endangers more than she can serve.

Lock her in a lab? Lock her in a lab? No. I'm talking about on the Normandy. Set her up like Mordin. She commands a small research fleet. She has committed no crime any worse than Shepard.

[Argolas]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Argolas wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish we could have recruited Xen to work on any tech we found. She's a scientist. Anything to give us an edge. The woman was a genius, psychoses not withstanding. But hell set her up with a full lab who knows what she'd come up with. In times like a reaper invasion you overlook things like her beliefs so long as she does her job. For developing the weapon she did? That was her job. Throwing her out the airlock would be a total waste of brainpower.

Remove her from the goverment and lock her in in a lab would be fine. But as an admiral, she endangers more than she can serve.

Lock her in a lab? Lock her in a lab? No. I'm talking about on the Normandy. Set her up like Mordin. She commands a small research fleet. She has committed no crime any worse than Shepard.

Fine with me as long as she is kept in check and has no say about anything other than her research. She plans to enslave the Geth again... that's an attitude that can't be allowed in the highest quarian governmental institution.

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But then they changed all that and created military bases and servers on Rannoch anyway, and made it a fortress world.
And it's more like leaving flowers at a grave, and then making peace and moving on, letting the land be used to move to their future. They are living beings, it's stupid to think they won't move on from their remorse sooner or later.
The geth do not need climate or ecology, so no, there ARE no other considerations.

Perfection and technological advancement is the reason for living, as stated BY LEGION HIMSELF IN ME2.

So NO, I DO know what I was talking about. And last I recall, you said that since Rannoch is an arid world with an orange star that gives off less energy then Earth's. That means that Tikkun ISN'T an ideal system for it after all.

No, it's ideal because of that fact, it's easier to construct satelites around a less active star, also there arn't a lot of inner starsystem planetary bodies that will cause gravitational shifts as they pass near the satelites.

The closest planet to their sun is Rannoch.

They also got an asteroidfield rightoutside Rannoch that provides cheap construction materials for their superproject and it's easier to build if you got materials in system than if you have to import everything, it's been mentioned before in the ME series.

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong about their construction plans, noone in game seemed the least bit concerned about it.
The starsystem is ideal with an relatively manageble sun and plenty of construction materials in system.
It's also the system wich originaly held the largest amount of Geth habitants.
Makes perfect sense.

It's a much better system than Sol for such a project. I would pick it over Sol any day.

And yet there were already enough clusters to distinguish it as a Dyson Sphere. It's smaller then avarage stars, meaning that any lost sunlight is even more detrimental to the environment of the planets in the system because the output isn't as high.

And that STILL doesn;t explain the massive geth presance on the supposedly forbiddon-to-walk-on Rannoch. Jamming towers, bases, servers, defensive foundries. Likely manufacturing plants. The geth aren't making it look like Rannoch is untouched, compared to Legion telling you that none of the quarian world are occupied.

There are STILL other systems, like the Ma-at system, near Dohlen (Haestrom's system) that had another small star. There were other systems the geth could have used. The ONLY thing I can see that's different about Tikkun is that it's where the Perseus Veil's Mass Relay is loacted. Nothing a fleet couldn't keep safe, and not a reason to make Rannoch the core of geth territory,

No veil or dyson juice swiping in a system with a mass relay.. sorry

I'm thinking someone is trying to justify dosing the Geth out of their system(that's really just a side mission,as Quarians are really just ho hum, in the scheme of things, the council figures?) to justify later destroying all tech oriented life forms. The only reason for making Tikkun interesting or Rannoch Geth territory. The writers miffed it when they hid something and then gave it rapid transit..lol

Our esteemed silver reads too much into stuff,expects everyone to do so, hence the text walling and agree or die ethos. Made folks start cracking jokes' n stuff.  In the MEU, the geth are actually harmless. The Alliance could easily wipe them out any time they actually made the effort. Hackett probably figures they'll come in handy some day, machines make good tools, if handled properly. lol Take Shepard for example... Does like he/she's told.

[Auld Wulf]

Not to mention that the orthodox geth really aren't a threat. They've chosen peace every time they've been given a chance. Legion didn't shoot at the organics he encountered, after all. It's hard for something that isn't a threat to actually be a threat. Only when their survival is threatened does a geth become a threat, but that's true of us humans as well. Hold a gun to my head and I'm likely not going to treat you very kindly.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Not to mention that the orthodox geth really aren't a threat. They've chosen peace every time they've been given a chance. Legion didn't shoot at the organics he encountered, after all. It's hard for something that isn't a threat to actually be a threat. Only when their survival is threatened does a geth become a threat, but that's true of us humans as well. Hold a gun to my head and I'm likely not going to treat you very kindly.

actually, with a gun at your head, you'll likely be very nice, extra nice probably.. But that's the problem with this thread, or the way it went. It's based on the Geth threat in the MEU, as if it's equal or worse than a reaper threat, and should be treated as such. But it's really, seemingly to me, a justification for the destroyer ethos.

Geth should die because they scare me?..lol

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

What did Legion propose and how was trusting him going to doom the Flotilla? Whatever Legion proposed you can investigate. When Legion is recalled, you can go looking for him. Sending a single ship to go find him risks the lives of ADULTS. I would happily volunteer for that mission if the alternative was strapping guns to my siblings or kids home.

And civilians with guns are enemy combatants or human shields. Explain to me why according to rules of war they are not. Otherwise, I don't care about your opinion Silver. You are free to have one but it is irrelevant. Support your opinion with evidence other than your own voice because just like the Quarians with respect to the Geth, you have no credibility with me. The only difference is I am not preparing to send my kids to war.

The rest of your post is just rambling incoherent insults with some pronouns, prepositions and verbs thrown in to give the appearance of sentences. So in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, that's all I am gonna say about that.

Legion and Tali jointly proposed trying to negotiate. I believe we went over that multiple times, and you even tried using that in a point yourself, so IDK how you suddenly don't know about it.
Also, AGIAN, not possible since Legion never gave any proof to back up what he said. And again, one single proprosal to negotiate isn't enough. They only tried ONCE before Legion was recalled to the Consensis. One attempt was never going to cut it, especally without any supporting proof.
Also, Tali DID try to reconnect with him. But physically looking for him was out of the question since no ship that ever went into the Veil survived. That Legion never returned her messages is proof that something happened - something likely pertaining to the geth not supporting Legion's views, given that he never returned her messages. Tali likely figured that the geth disagreed with him and had him drop the idea. Regardless, he never responded, so she gave up on the geth wanting to negotiate, because if they did, then they surely would have allowed Legion to return. After all, you can't tell me that Legion didn't make the same proposal to the geth, who, by their lack of action in contacting the quarians, did the exact same thing the Admirals did and shot down Legion's idea.
You keep saying that the geth have no reason to trust the quarians, but guess what? It works Both Ways. The quarians have no reason to trust the geth. Mutual distrust and lack of supporting evidence from BOTH sides killed the negotiation possibility. NITHER side thought negotiation was possible, or were willing to risk the attempt. So you can't blame the quarians for that.

Again, all you do is continue to be unreasonable. You refuse to acknowledge that there is zero trust from BOTH sides - the geth are NOT innocent in any of this, contrary to your headcannoned beliefs. After all, no ship that ever set foot in the Veil ever returned. And since the geth seemingly prevented Legion from ever returning, nor listened to hem when he likely told them about the chance, it's all too obvious that the geth didn't want to negotiate. So if you HAD gone, you would find that the situation was exactally the same - them distrusting you for the same reason your people distrust them: Lack of cooberating evidence or proof.
However, there is ONE difference: Legion wa NOT shot on sight. Everyone that tried the same with the geth WERE shot on sight. They had no more interest in negotiation, or any more reason to think it was possible then the quarians. Legion does NOT represent the geth: He's independant. An idealist, like Tali and Koris. The other geth probabally treated him the same way Xen, Raan and Gerrel treated Koris - with sceptisism and disbelief.
Had you tried such a thing, having no proof of your words or efforts, they would shoot you on sight and you would have died worthlessly. You would have changed absolutly nothing. Dying a sensless death to try and prove a point does NOT help your family. Standing by them and trying to make sure that they can get a future - THAT does.

Because those civilians DON'T have guns. I find it hard to believe that all 17 million are actively manning active guns and shooting geth. Most of the quarians aren't even FIGHTING - the civilian ships were never even supposed to BE on the front line. They were supposed to hang back and let Gerrel and Raan's ships clear the way without them ever getting involved in the fight.  The geth's upgrades changed everything. If your family is cornerd and being beaten to death, chances are you are going to wish to hell that they didn't die just because you were unable to swallow your damn pride and get a weapon to defend them with.
Your views are nothing short of sociopathicly narrow. The civilians on the Migrant Fleet are noithing but BYSTANDERS. They are not partcipating in the shooting, done by the captians following orders from the military fleet. They weren't even supposed to be actively fighting up-front. They're just... there. It's no different then the Exodus in the bible. Yet you chastize them for it. 
IDK if you comprehend this, but there ARE situations in life where those rules DON'T CUT IT. Like when military are moving through a city on the way to deployment. Or when escorting civilians to safety in their armed transports. That's NOT human shields, because it's NOT against their will, AND its's NOT enemy combatants, because they are not armed nor will they be. That's transport and relocation. What THEN?
You see NONE of the gray in life - just black and white absolutes. NOTHING is that cut and dried in the real world. What you are doing is NOT killing them for War. It's killing them because they're there, and because you can. THAT'S your only excuse for doing it.

So in turn, I ask YOU what makes you say that when I HAVE backed my word and YOU haven't.  You are the one that would rather sit back and let them all die on a fleeting maybe, or run away to die in vain to prove a damn point, then stay and fight for their future. They aren't GOING to be the one's fighting: YOU are.
You again show unresonableness and headcannon logic.  You refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING pertaining to the motiavtions of the quarians. You show amoral responces to the fate of civilians.
I honestly thought you were better then that.  The world isn't as black and white as you claim. You'll likely learn that the hard way at this rate.

Actualy, that one atempt by Legion and Tali was after Legion returned to the Concensus, which is immediately after Shepard turns himself in.
Which is why any communication between Tali and Legion was being made over distance over the extranet.
The Admiralty didn't want to talk, probably because they liked their new toyweapons too much to bother talking.
If it had been Before Shepard turned him/herself over then Legion and Tali would have been on Shepard ship, the Normandy.
Unless Legion decided to tour the galaxy after leaving the Normandy, I don't Think anyone mentioned anything about Legion goinn for an adventure or diplomatic missions.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 avril 2013 - 01:31 .

[Wayning_Star]

Yes, Legion was the Geth diplomat. Not a sneaky kind of machine man. The whole thing was just about their warring with Quarians. Didn't really have much to do with the MEU at all. Why didn' Tali tell shep/alliance about the mass relay into "hidden" Geth space, as the Quarian world is there as well?

Bad Tali, BAAAAD!! You should be destroyed!! lol

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Kids play nice or I'll have to call Harby in to "Harvest" you so you don't "harvest" each other.

Don't worry we'll make you nice slushies afterwards.

I am playing nice othewise I would have retaliated to the constant insults with a Geth like response.  Right now I am still in pre Morning War phase of trying to understand where all this emotion and hate is coming from.  Once Creator Megara dies though, all bets are off.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish we could have recruited Xen to work on any tech we found. She's a scientist. Anything to give us an edge. The woman was a genius, psychoses not withstanding. But hell set her up with a full lab who knows what she'd come up with. In times like a reaper invasion you overlook things like her beliefs so long as she does her job. For developing the weapon she did? That was her job. Throwing her out the airlock would be a total waste of brainpower.

Histroy is littered with psychotic geniuses.  They still deserve to be thrown out the airlock.  But sure I suppose you can use her and once the threat is over, you can question her in the exit interview to see if seeing the Geth and Quarians work together has changed her views.  I suggest conducting this exit interview in the cockpit of the Normandy so if she is still a psychotic nutter, you don't have to carry her far as the Airlock is just outside the cockpit area.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 02:54 .

[Auld Wulf]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Not to mention that the orthodox geth really aren't a threat. They've chosen peace every time they've been given a chance. Legion didn't shoot at the organics he encountered, after all. It's hard for something that isn't a threat to actually be a threat. Only when their survival is threatened does a geth become a threat, but that's true of us humans as well. Hold a gun to my head and I'm likely not going to treat you very kindly.

actually, with a gun at your head, you'll likely be very nice, extra nice probably.. But that's the problem with this thread, or the way it went. It's based on the Geth threat in the MEU, as if it's equal or worse than a reaper threat, and should be treated as such. But it's really, seemingly to me, a justification for the destroyer ethos.

Geth should die because they scare me?..lol

That's athropomorphising them, though. Y'know? The geth don't have individual survivel instincts so much, it's more collective survival. If I were a geth platform someone was holding a gun to my head, I would die to preserve the geth. Since I am geth, all are geth. And if I can stop this person here with a gun right now, it means that geth have a greater chance of survival.

All the orthodox geth want is to survive and enjoy their heightened cognition. But the frequent response is "No, you deserve to die because I don't like you." And that's not racist? Well, if it's not, I don't know what is.

And I agree with justification for destruction. It's just xenophobia. People can deny it all they like, but there's an instinctive response which intellectuality has to override. If you listen to your instincts, then muslims become evil because of extremists and so on. British people had a hate fetish for the Irish for a while because of the IRA, and I didn't get that. Intellectually I was able to understand that the IRA and the Irish are not the same. But that requires more erudite examination. Most people favour knee-jerk xenophobic responses.

And then you have the justification of that. I'm sure that any past dictatorship would have had justifications for why they were gassing or mass slaughtering people they didn't like, too. I'm sure they think that those reasons are very good, very valid, very reasonable reasons. But they're reasons based upon instinct rather than intellectuality. Hatred for an entire peoples is an instinctive response, not an intellectual response.

Hatred of all geth is an instintive response, not an intellectual response.

Hatred for the Reapers for actions committed under the influence of the Catalyst is an instinctive response, not an intellectual response.

It's all about the balance of intellect versus instinct. Do you go with what your primal fears tell you, or what your educated mind tells you? I've said it before and I'll say it again -- that's what this debate is truly about. It's about the worth of instinctive responses versus intellectual responses. That's what the geth/quarian debate has always been about, that's what the geth/quarian debate will continue to be about.

We've had people defending instinctive hate for 200 pages with the most nonsensical, ridiculous reasoning (which probably seems entirely logical to them, because they haven't stopped to examine their reasoning). Will this really change in another 200 pages? I doubt it. I think that people who're so dead-set against the geth, who see them as abominations of pure evil? Those people? I think they have issues with racism and black & white thinking across the board.

It's easy to justify destroying if you can just turn off your intellect and give into hate.

Again, I've yet to see quarian supporters say nice things about Legion, despite how I've said nice things about Koris and the quarian civilians. I'm not racist, I'm not a black & white thinker. I never have been. I've often extolled the folly of black & white, binary thinking. But not everyone can do grey, and if you can't think in shades of grey then your only recourse is racism. Hatred of the geth? It's just a byproduct of those kinds of thinking and racism.

Intellectually one cannot damn the geth, because there are plenty of reasons not to. All that's left is instinctive hate. So whilst quarian-supporters hate the geth, I (as a geth-supporter) don't hate the quarians. To the contrary, I dig Koris, Tali, and the civilians. (My only qualms with the quarians is that Gerrel/Xen are incredibly unethical and imbalanced as persons, and that they misuse the military to unethical ends. I don't hate the quarian peoples because of that.) Even Remydat has said that he digs Tali. This is what a lack of hate looks like. This is what being reasonable looks like. I wish people would take notes.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 11 avril 2013 - 03:19 .

[remydat]

Silver,

It is clear you either don't read my posts or struggle with understanding english outside of your own posts.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/166

Please note in my response to Crono on page 166, I state clearly no one said you should trust the Geth.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/168

On the bottom of page 168, please note how I discuss what I feel the Geth did wrong.  Please note I acknowledge the reasons why the Quarians don't trust them.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/179

And here is me talking to you and repeating myself that the issue here is not trust.  As noted above, I acknowledge and accept the Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth and the Geth have no reason to trust the Quarians.  That has been stated by me repeatedly when talking to just about everyone from Crono to SAK to you.

Where you seem confused is that I am saying I don't care about the lack of trust by both sides.  I don't care.  My government is about to put guns on the ships my siblings and kids live on and send them to war.  Trust is irrelevant.  When the lives of people I care about are at stake, I will grasp at any straw that prevents them from being placed in harms way.  If that means going into the Perseus Veil and risking MY LIFE then MY LIFE is worth taking that chance.  So you seem confused.  A lack of trust is NO EXCUSE in my world not to continue to push for peace despite not having a reason to trust the Geth.  The reason it is NO EXCUSE is because if I don't take this chance then my siblings and kids go to war.  My choosing to take a chance when I have no reason to trust Leejin does not put my siblings or kids in immediate danger.  It puts me in danger and if I fail I fail.  That is a small price to pay if it leads to peace.

So cut the bullsh*t, read the above and respond with logic and evidence.  Don't try and tell me what I acknowledge or said.  I know what I said and I can find the posts to prove it.  You can't even keep your arguments logical so perhaps you should focus on getting those in order before trying to tell me what I said.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 03:22 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, you are dead wrong, and only worsening your own credibility, which in turn worsens his.  Especally since @remydat openly stated that he thinks killing millions to stop dozens is perfectly acceptible. I don't know how one's morals can get so inverted, but no one with ANY sense of objective reasoning would look at him with any form or seriousness.

No Silver, I did not say that.  Again you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  Every Quarian ship complies with Gherel's order.  Every ship.  It was not dozens firing on the Geth.  It was everyone.  They could have chosen to listen to Tali and told Gherel to stand down but instead they listened to him.  That was their choice.  And yes you can say to your hearts content that Gherel had no reason to trust the Geth.  That is fine.  However, the Geth have no reason not to return fire and kill them.  You keep going on and on abou trust but want to excuse Gherel for not standing down when Tali tells him while at the same time saying the Geth should not return fire as if they should trust their lovable adorable creators who tried to wipe them from existence.

You are responsible for your leaders period.  If your leaders wage war in your name and you do nothing to stop them, that is on you.  If they strap guns to the ships your kids live on and have them fire on the enemy, that is on you.

So again, cut the bullsh*t.  You don't see me going around trying to misrepresent what you said. 

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 03:39 .

[S.A.K]

You guys still at it I see.

Tell me if anyone wins this debate.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

You guys still at it I see.

Tell me if anyone wins this debate.

At this point I am hanging around just to see what new insults Silver can come up with.  

In fact, why don't I just provide a thesaurus to help him in this intellectual endeavor. 

http://thesaurus.com/

[RandomDrippings]

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Again, I've said it before: All Quarian supporters are hypocrites, they love EDI and can't imagine her dying, but will kill the Geth no problem.

This is hurting your credibility.

It would be hurting his credibility if he was wrong and a voice speaking out against the majorioty. A commonly held viewpoint can't hold credibility. When one of the most reasonable and objective debaters here (Remydat) is noticing hypocrisy and hate? Well, that's when you know it's a problem.

I've pointed out how quarian-supporters tend to push quarians as having an Aryan-like perfection going for them, the true master race, the peoples who're unable of doing any wrong. This is a truth. If you look at Remydat and the people he's debating with, Remy has often admitted the flaws and errors of the geth, and that they are not a perfect people. But if he presents the notion that the quarians are imperfect, it creates a crapstorm. It's almost like dealing with people who have a religious or sexual fetish for something, it verges on being fanatical.

Admittedly, there are less bad and more bad instances of this, here, but it's a common-held thing. Try and find me a quarian supporter who admits that Gerrel should be deposed, or that the quarian governement could be capable of corruption, or that the quarians aren't the best people for not opposing that corruption. Many quarian-supporters talk hatefully about the geth and how the geth are so evil for not doing anything about the heretics, and that's been acknowledged, Remy acknkowledged it. But say anything to slight the Aryan-supremacy of the quarians? You'd better be prepared to be ganged up on by quarian fanaticists.

And therein lies the problem. Geth fans are willing to give a little and be reasonable, geth fans are willing to admit teh errors of their side. Quarian fans will Universally not admit to any flaws or be reasonable. Quarian-supporters won't see the geth as anything other than abominations, whilst the geth side see the quarians as just people, capable of beauty AND error.

This is why the undertone of this debate has always felt more like a debate with people who are horribly racist in all things versus people who aren't. People who can be reasonable, will give, and will understand all perspectives and sides of an argument, and people who can't. It's like the quarian-supporters have so much invested in racism.

I have long spoken of how much I like Koris, I sing his praises. But I haven't seen a single quarian-supporter singing the praises of Legion and all the good he's done.

If that doesn't make you think, then you're part of the problem.

AGAIN, you are dead wrong, and only worsening your own credibility, which in turn worsens his.  Especally since @remydat openly stated that he thinks killing millions to stop dozens is perfectly acceptible. I don't know how one's morals can get so inverted, but no one with ANY sense of objective reasoning would look at him with any form or seriousness.

AGAIN, that's outright lying - YOU are the only one saying that, not anyone else. What people are asking you - wich you NEVER answered - is what the hell were they SUPPOSED to do instead, when every other path led to DEATH? My point, is that prejudiced debaters like you chastize the quarians for doing the EXACT same thing you support the geth in doing. You see shadows where there are NONE, and hatred where there is NONE.
Also, DEAD WRONG. @remydat has done everything in his power to headcannon every fault being caused by the quarians. He says it's all the quarians fault for not negotiating, when the geth never made it an option. That it's the quarians fault for chossong survival when the geth did the exact same. That they sould not have gone to war, even though the alternitve is certen death.
He has done ANYTHING but be objective to the quarians or geth. He has been prejuduced for the geth all throughout. No one ever DID say the quarians were perfect. The miscnception is everyone saying the GETH are perfect, when they are NOT. The problem everyone has with him is that he acts like EVERYTHING was the quarians fault, and that the geth are eternally innocent and absolvable in their actions, simply because they are synthetic. That's prejudice, plain and simple.

Do us a favor: find me proof that diffinitively shows that the geth made open communication with the galaxy broadcasting peace. And before you try BSing me, know that Legion is NOT a diplomat, never was, and was never intended to make diplomatic contact, and is isolated from the geth and working outside their juristiction. Legion's sole mission was to find Shepard. That's it.
And AGAIN, Gerrel is only working off what information he has. He is no different or worse off then Hackett. Why don't you find me someone that thinks Hackett should be deposed for throwing away the Second Fleet against the Reapers so that everyone could run from Acrturus Station? Or how he nearly killed Shepard in ME1 when he fired on Sovergein?
Also, AGAIN, this is demonstrating how the quarians see the geth because THEY have no proof of it. What we know about geth isn't known by them.
And agian, no one was calling the geth "evil." Just that they don't care for organics. Look at Grunt. He cares less about anyone but the Normandy crew, but does that make him evil? Us saying the geth didn't care about others doesn't make them evil. We are arguing that the geth are selfish. "Evil" was NEVER brought up by anyone but YOU. Seeing a pattern?

The only person that ever was unreasonable has been you. How about you point out ONE thing that either you or @remydat diffinitively EVER said was the geth's fault. Theirs and theirs alone. I'll wait.


And HOW many times must it be stated "Legion has no proof to back his word" before you realize "Legion had no proof to back his word"? ONE GETH is not compelling proof to trust the rest of them, especally after a fleet of them attacked the Citadel.
After all, in ME2, Miranda Lawson saved your life, and that doens't mean you trust Cerberus, right? See the connection?

Silver, are you honestly saying that destroying a reaper and having the parts uncontrollably rain all over the citadel (and some happen to almost land on shepard) is the same as purposely firing on a ship with shepard and a fellow admiral aboard? That comparison is ridiculous. For one, Gerral was supposed to withdraw. instead he chose to attack a ship with 4 (or 5 depending on your playthrough) VIPs on it. For two, Shepard was not on board Sovreign. There is no way to control how the parts would have flown. And for three, the Normandy delivered the killing blow to Sovreign, not a ship under Hackett's command.
On another note, why would the geth need to broadcast ideas of peace to the galaxy? They chose isolationism instead of risking war with organics. Is that a crime? Based on historical facts it would seem like the best decision. They keep to themselves and no one gets hurt. And to say that Legion was a lone geth isolated from the rest is not entirely true. He is an avatar of the geth concensus. A portal for them to relay messages to organics. more specifically to shepard.
Also you said that the Geth cannot be trusted simply because of the actions of one member of the geth. I can agree with that, however, based on the actions of both sides the geth would seem to be the more trustworthy of the two. Tali and Legion proved to be very trustworthy so its a stalemate. But then you look at prazza and the rest of tali's group on Freedoms Progress. They say they will work with you and literally 45 seconds later they betray you, and disobey the orders of the commanding officer. Then you meet Kal Reegar and he sort of evens out the score again. But finally you meet the admiralty board. Half the board is willing to toy with tali's life for political purposes. Does that sound trustworthy? one of them wants to enslave the geth again. I dont trust slavers, do you? And the last one is rather weak willed and seems to buckle under pressure. while i wouldnt go so far as to say she couldnt be trusted, theres no way i would put faith in her to go against Gerral. And finally you have tali's father and his science team. Going against quarian law experimenting on geth so they can take a world that they have never even seen. i dont trust them either. But hey maybe the first impressions were just off a little bit. Maybe they will seem more trustworthy on a second meeting. Not a chance, They at a ship with shepard on board when he came to help them. Tried to experiment on one of shepards friends (who was also trying to help). and would not listen to shepard when he told them to back off from the geth or get blown out of the sky. So while the geth have not entirely proven themselves worthy of trust, the majority of the quarians you meet have definitely proven themselves worthy of distrust. And that is why i chose the geth over the quarians

[Auld Wulf]

Again, we have the same problems.

Silver says...

Quarians - as one entity: Aryan Perfection; Free of evil; Free of corruption; Free of error!
Geth - as one entity: Distrustful; Flawed; Evil; Corrupt.

This just ignores the heretics, the orthodox geth, the military, the unethical persons within the quarian military, and so on, and so on. This is my issue with the whole debate. Until this stops, we won't be able to have a proper debate.

Silver, stop and re-evaluate how you look at the quarians and the geth. BOTH are capable of BOTH. Not one is capable solely of one subset of things, and another is capable only of the other. That's racism. You believe that the geth are vile, distrustful, disloyal rats. But you don't say that about the quarians. You present the quarians as Aryan Perfection.

It makes me wonder how you evaluate groups of people in the real world.

This is what needs to stop for the quarian-supporters to be taken seriously.

[Wayning_Star]

RandomDrippings wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Again, I've said it before: All Quarian supporters are hypocrites, they love EDI and can't imagine her dying, but will kill the Geth no problem.

This is hurting your credibility.

It would be hurting his credibility if he was wrong and a voice speaking out against the majorioty. A commonly held viewpoint can't hold credibility. When one of the most reasonable and objective debaters here (Remydat) is noticing hypocrisy and hate? Well, that's when you know it's a problem.

I've pointed out how quarian-supporters tend to push quarians as having an Aryan-like perfection going for them, the true master race, the peoples who're unable of doing any wrong. This is a truth. If you look at Remydat and the people he's debating with, Remy has often admitted the flaws and errors of the geth, and that they are not a perfect people. But if he presents the notion that the quarians are imperfect, it creates a crapstorm. It's almost like dealing with people who have a religious or sexual fetish for something, it verges on being fanatical.

Admittedly, there are less bad and more bad instances of this, here, but it's a common-held thing. Try and find me a quarian supporter who admits that Gerrel should be deposed, or that the quarian governement could be capable of corruption, or that the quarians aren't the best people for not opposing that corruption. Many quarian-supporters talk hatefully about the geth and how the geth are so evil for not doing anything about the heretics, and that's been acknowledged, Remy acknkowledged it. But say anything to slight the Aryan-supremacy of the quarians? You'd better be prepared to be ganged up on by quarian fanaticists.

And therein lies the problem. Geth fans are willing to give a little and be reasonable, geth fans are willing to admit teh errors of their side. Quarian fans will Universally not admit to any flaws or be reasonable. Quarian-supporters won't see the geth as anything other than abominations, whilst the geth side see the quarians as just people, capable of beauty AND error.

This is why the undertone of this debate has always felt more like a debate with people who are horribly racist in all things versus people who aren't. People who can be reasonable, will give, and will understand all perspectives and sides of an argument, and people who can't. It's like the quarian-supporters have so much invested in racism.

I have long spoken of how much I like Koris, I sing his praises. But I haven't seen a single quarian-supporter singing the praises of Legion and all the good he's done.

If that doesn't make you think, then you're part of the problem.

AGAIN, you are dead wrong, and only worsening your own credibility, which in turn worsens his.  Especally since @remydat openly stated that he thinks killing millions to stop dozens is perfectly acceptible. I don't know how one's morals can get so inverted, but no one with ANY sense of objective reasoning would look at him with any form or seriousness.

AGAIN, that's outright lying - YOU are the only one saying that, not anyone else. What people are asking you - wich you NEVER answered - is what the hell were they SUPPOSED to do instead, when every other path led to DEATH? My point, is that prejudiced debaters like you chastize the quarians for doing the EXACT same thing you support the geth in doing. You see shadows where there are NONE, and hatred where there is NONE.
Also, DEAD WRONG. @remydat has done everything in his power to headcannon every fault being caused by the quarians. He says it's all the quarians fault for not negotiating, when the geth never made it an option. That it's the quarians fault for chossong survival when the geth did the exact same. That they sould not have gone to war, even though the alternitve is certen death.
He has done ANYTHING but be objective to the quarians or geth. He has been prejuduced for the geth all throughout. No one ever DID say the quarians were perfect. The miscnception is everyone saying the GETH are perfect, when they are NOT. The problem everyone has with him is that he acts like EVERYTHING was the quarians fault, and that the geth are eternally innocent and absolvable in their actions, simply because they are synthetic. That's prejudice, plain and simple.

Do us a favor: find me proof that diffinitively shows that the geth made open communication with the galaxy broadcasting peace. And before you try BSing me, know that Legion is NOT a diplomat, never was, and was never intended to make diplomatic contact, and is isolated from the geth and working outside their juristiction. Legion's sole mission was to find Shepard. That's it.
And AGAIN, Gerrel is only working off what information he has. He is no different or worse off then Hackett. Why don't you find me someone that thinks Hackett should be deposed for throwing away the Second Fleet against the Reapers so that everyone could run from Acrturus Station? Or how he nearly killed Shepard in ME1 when he fired on Sovergein?
Also, AGAIN, this is demonstrating how the quarians see the geth because THEY have no proof of it. What we know about geth isn't known by them.
And agian, no one was calling the geth "evil." Just that they don't care for organics. Look at Grunt. He cares less about anyone but the Normandy crew, but does that make him evil? Us saying the geth didn't care about others doesn't make them evil. We are arguing that the geth are selfish. "Evil" was NEVER brought up by anyone but YOU. Seeing a pattern?

The only person that ever was unreasonable has been you. How about you point out ONE thing that either you or @remydat diffinitively EVER said was the geth's fault. Theirs and theirs alone. I'll wait.


And HOW many times must it be stated "Legion has no proof to back his word" before you realize "Legion had no proof to back his word"? ONE GETH is not compelling proof to trust the rest of them, especally after a fleet of them attacked the Citadel.
After all, in ME2, Miranda Lawson saved your life, and that doens't mean you trust Cerberus, right? See the connection?

Silver, are you honestly saying that destroying a reaper and having the parts uncontrollably rain all over the citadel (and some happen to almost land on shepard) is the same as purposely firing on a ship with shepard and a fellow admiral aboard? That comparison is ridiculous. For one, Gerral was supposed to withdraw. instead he chose to attack a ship with 4 (or 5 depending on your playthrough) VIPs on it. For two, Shepard was not on board Sovreign. There is no way to control how the parts would have flown. And for three, the Normandy delivered the killing blow to Sovreign, not a ship under Hackett's command.
On another note, why would the geth need to broadcast ideas of peace to the galaxy? They chose isolationism instead of risking war with organics. Is that a crime? Based on historical facts it would seem like the best decision. They keep to themselves and no one gets hurt. And to say that Legion was a lone geth isolated from the rest is not entirely true. He is an avatar of the geth concensus. A portal for them to relay messages to organics. more specifically to shepard.
Also you said that the Geth cannot be trusted simply because of the actions of one member of the geth. I can agree with that, however, based on the actions of both sides the geth would seem to be the more trustworthy of the two. Tali and Legion proved to be very trustworthy so its a stalemate. But then you look at prazza and the rest of tali's group on Freedoms Progress. They say they will work with you and literally 45 seconds later they betray you, and disobey the orders of the commanding officer. Then you meet Kal Reegar and he sort of evens out the score again. But finally you meet the admiralty board. Half the board is willing to toy with tali's life for political purposes. Does that sound trustworthy? one of them wants to enslave the geth again. I dont trust slavers, do you? And the last one is rather weak willed and seems to buckle under pressure. while i wouldnt go so far as to say she couldnt be trusted, theres no way i would put faith in her to go against Gerral. And finally you have tali's father and his science team. Going against quarian law experimenting on geth so they can take a world that they have never even seen. i dont trust them either. But hey maybe the first impressions were just off a little bit. Maybe they will seem more trustworthy on a second meeting. Not a chance, They at a ship with shepard on board when he came to help them. Tried to experiment on one of shepards friends (who was also trying to help). and would not listen to shepard when he told them to back off from the geth or get blown out of the sky. So while the geth have not entirely proven themselves worthy of trust, the majority of the quarians you meet have definitely proven themselves worthy of distrust. And that is why i chose the geth over the quarians

I chose both, Geth and Quarians. Mostly for the same reason I permitted TIM to utilize me as a tool. That's all he knew to do. Assets.

(all in all I couldn't tell much difference between Geth and Quarians, other than the Q's hostility toward machines they created for use. Once that use was limited by Geth sapience, they considered them toaster ovens with limited soul potential. Cold.. Even Tali was ate up with that revenge kick for a while. Legion saved the Geth for me, with Tali learning a difference in priorities. Another one of those spots where bioware writers had much of their story telling together. Similar to the Krogans and the dreaded Rachni .


edit: forgot to mention I'm either confuse and/or miffed about the mass relay existing in hidden but accessible Geth space...all the sudden. I cannot believe I missed that fact/lore glitch in the game..just zipped past me. To digress, a lot of things does that..

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 11 avril 2013 - 08:05 .

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But then they changed all that and created military bases and servers on Rannoch anyway, and made it a fortress world.
And it's more like leaving flowers at a grave, and then making peace and moving on, letting the land be used to move to their future. They are living beings, it's stupid to think they won't move on from their remorse sooner or later.
The geth do not need climate or ecology, so no, there ARE no other considerations.

Perfection and technological advancement is the reason for living, as stated BY LEGION HIMSELF IN ME2.

So NO, I DO know what I was talking about. And last I recall, you said that since Rannoch is an arid world with an orange star that gives off less energy then Earth's. That means that Tikkun ISN'T an ideal system for it after all.

No, it's ideal because of that fact, it's easier to construct satelites around a less active star, also there arn't a lot of inner starsystem planetary bodies that will cause gravitational shifts as they pass near the satelites.

The closest planet to their sun is Rannoch.

They also got an asteroidfield rightoutside Rannoch that provides cheap construction materials for their superproject and it's easier to build if you got materials in system than if you have to import everything, it's been mentioned before in the ME series.

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong about their construction plans, noone in game seemed the least bit concerned about it.
The starsystem is ideal with an relatively manageble sun and plenty of construction materials in system.
It's also the system wich originaly held the largest amount of Geth habitants.
Makes perfect sense.

It's a much better system than Sol for such a project. I would pick it over Sol any day.

And yet there were already enough clusters to distinguish it as a Dyson Sphere. It's smaller then avarage stars, meaning that any lost sunlight is even more detrimental to the environment of the planets in the system because the output isn't as high.

And that STILL doesn;t explain the massive geth presance on the supposedly forbiddon-to-walk-on Rannoch. Jamming towers, bases, servers, defensive foundries. Likely manufacturing plants. The geth aren't making it look like Rannoch is untouched, compared to Legion telling you that none of the quarian world are occupied.

There are STILL other systems, like the Ma-at system, near Dohlen (Haestrom's system) that had another small star. There were other systems the geth could have used. The ONLY thing I can see that's different about Tikkun is that it's where the Perseus Veil's Mass Relay is loacted. Nothing a fleet couldn't keep safe, and not a reason to make Rannoch the core of geth territory,

No veil or dyson juice swiping in a system with a mass relay.. sorry

I'm thinking someone is trying to justify dosing the Geth out of their system(that's really just a side mission,as Quarians are really just ho hum, in the scheme of things, the council figures?) to justify later destroying all tech oriented life forms. The only reason for making Tikkun interesting or Rannoch Geth territory. The writers miffed it when they hid something and then gave it rapid transit..lol

Our esteemed silver reads too much into stuff,expects everyone to do so, hence the text walling and agree or die ethos. Made folks start cracking jokes' n stuff.  In the MEU, the geth are actually harmless. The Alliance could easily wipe them out any time they actually made the effort. Hackett probably figures they'll come in handy some day, machines make good tools, if handled properly. lol Take Shepard for example... Does like he/she's told.

Oh PLEASE. Give me ONE REASON why the geth spicifically needed Tikkun as the site of a dyson sphere. The geth don't even need habitable worlds, so why the hell did they base themselves in a system where there was one? You are doing the exact opposite and taking EVERYTHING at face-value. That can be no better then readoing "too much" into it.

Also, LOL, what? Did you miss the part about the geth having almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians? Each of which is a third of the size bigger then Alliance dreadnoughts? At least 50,000 ships, that unlike the quarians ships, are ALL warships. The Alliance only THINKS they could wipe out the geth, because they think that the fleet that attacked the Citadel was the geth's entire fleet. They DON'T KNOW that the gett fleet outstrips them by 4 - 1.
Honestly, if you read the Codex, you would know that everyone assumes the Heretic fleet was the geth's entire fleet, when in truth it's only 7% of it. If they knew the truth, they would not be so gung-ho.
So no, a classic example of you not reading the lore.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 avril 2013 - 10:42 .