4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

What did Legion propose and how was trusting him going to doom the Flotilla? Whatever Legion proposed you can investigate. When Legion is recalled, you can go looking for him. Sending a single ship to go find him risks the lives of ADULTS. I would happily volunteer for that mission if the alternative was strapping guns to my siblings or kids home.

And civilians with guns are enemy combatants or human shields. Explain to me why according to rules of war they are not. Otherwise, I don't care about your opinion Silver. You are free to have one but it is irrelevant. Support your opinion with evidence other than your own voice because just like the Quarians with respect to the Geth, you have no credibility with me. The only difference is I am not preparing to send my kids to war.

The rest of your post is just rambling incoherent insults with some pronouns, prepositions and verbs thrown in to give the appearance of sentences. So in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, that's all I am gonna say about that.

Legion and Tali jointly proposed trying to negotiate. I believe we went over that multiple times, and you even tried using that in a point yourself, so IDK how you suddenly don't know about it.
Also, AGIAN, not possible since Legion never gave any proof to back up what he said. And again, one single proprosal to negotiate isn't enough. They only tried ONCE before Legion was recalled to the Consensis. One attempt was never going to cut it, especally without any supporting proof.
Also, Tali DID try to reconnect with him. But physically looking for him was out of the question since no ship that ever went into the Veil survived. That Legion never returned her messages is proof that something happened - something likely pertaining to the geth not supporting Legion's views, given that he never returned her messages. Tali likely figured that the geth disagreed with him and had him drop the idea. Regardless, he never responded, so she gave up on the geth wanting to negotiate, because if they did, then they surely would have allowed Legion to return. After all, you can't tell me that Legion didn't make the same proposal to the geth, who, by their lack of action in contacting the quarians, did the exact same thing the Admirals did and shot down Legion's idea.
You keep saying that the geth have no reason to trust the quarians, but guess what? It works Both Ways. The quarians have no reason to trust the geth. Mutual distrust and lack of supporting evidence from BOTH sides killed the negotiation possibility. NITHER side thought negotiation was possible, or were willing to risk the attempt. So you can't blame the quarians for that.

Again, all you do is continue to be unreasonable. You refuse to acknowledge that there is zero trust from BOTH sides - the geth are NOT innocent in any of this, contrary to your headcannoned beliefs. After all, no ship that ever set foot in the Veil ever returned. And since the geth seemingly prevented Legion from ever returning, nor listened to hem when he likely told them about the chance, it's all too obvious that the geth didn't want to negotiate. So if you HAD gone, you would find that the situation was exactally the same - them distrusting you for the same reason your people distrust them: Lack of cooberating evidence or proof.
However, there is ONE difference: Legion wa NOT shot on sight. Everyone that tried the same with the geth WERE shot on sight. They had no more interest in negotiation, or any more reason to think it was possible then the quarians. Legion does NOT represent the geth: He's independant. An idealist, like Tali and Koris. The other geth probabally treated him the same way Xen, Raan and Gerrel treated Koris - with sceptisism and disbelief.
Had you tried such a thing, having no proof of your words or efforts, they would shoot you on sight and you would have died worthlessly. You would have changed absolutly nothing. Dying a sensless death to try and prove a point does NOT help your family. Standing by them and trying to make sure that they can get a future - THAT does.

Because those civilians DON'T have guns. I find it hard to believe that all 17 million are actively manning active guns and shooting geth. Most of the quarians aren't even FIGHTING - the civilian ships were never even supposed to BE on the front line. They were supposed to hang back and let Gerrel and Raan's ships clear the way without them ever getting involved in the fight.  The geth's upgrades changed everything. If your family is cornerd and being beaten to death, chances are you are going to wish to hell that they didn't die just because you were unable to swallow your damn pride and get a weapon to defend them with.
Your views are nothing short of sociopathicly narrow. The civilians on the Migrant Fleet are noithing but BYSTANDERS. They are not partcipating in the shooting, done by the captians following orders from the military fleet. They weren't even supposed to be actively fighting up-front. They're just... there. It's no different then the Exodus in the bible. Yet you chastize them for it. 
IDK if you comprehend this, but there ARE situations in life where those rules DON'T CUT IT. Like when military are moving through a city on the way to deployment. Or when escorting civilians to safety in their armed transports. That's NOT human shields, because it's NOT against their will, AND its's NOT enemy combatants, because they are not armed nor will they be. That's transport and relocation. What THEN?
You see NONE of the gray in life - just black and white absolutes. NOTHING is that cut and dried in the real world. What you are doing is NOT killing them for War. It's killing them because they're there, and because you can. THAT'S your only excuse for doing it.

So in turn, I ask YOU what makes you say that when I HAVE backed my word and YOU haven't.  You are the one that would rather sit back and let them all die on a fleeting maybe, or run away to die in vain to prove a damn point, then stay and fight for their future. They aren't GOING to be the one's fighting: YOU are.
You again show unresonableness and headcannon logic.  You refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING pertaining to the motiavtions of the quarians. You show amoral responces to the fate of civilians.
I honestly thought you were better then that.  The world isn't as black and white as you claim. You'll likely learn that the hard way at this rate.

Actualy, that one atempt by Legion and Tali was after Legion returned to the Concensus, which is immediately after Shepard turns himself in.
Which is why any communication between Tali and Legion was being made over distance over the extranet.
The Admiralty didn't want to talk, probably because they liked their new toyweapons too much to bother talking.
If it had been Before Shepard turned him/herself over then Legion and Tali would have been on Shepard ship, the Normandy.
Unless Legion decided to tour the galaxy after leaving the Normandy, I don't Think anyone mentioned anything about Legion goinn for an adventure or diplomatic missions.

Actually, Tali tells you that Legion returned to the Consensis AFTER communicating with them. He talked via communication.
Also, did it ever occur to you that Legion never came back after the Consensis recalled him? Or that he never returned the messages? Did it ever occur to you that surely Legion told the geth about trying for peace? Or that if the geth agreed, they surely would have allowed Legion to resume communication with Tali? They didn't. They didn't want to negotiate anymore then Gerrel, Raan and Xen did. For the same exact reasons - no proof of peace being desired or possible. Same thing with the quarians, who saw nothing indicating negotiation was possible or desirable from the geth.
So please, stop trying to pin this on the quarians when the geth were being no different on the negotiation front.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, you are dead wrong, and only worsening your own credibility, which in turn worsens his.  Especally since @remydat openly stated that he thinks killing millions to stop dozens is perfectly acceptible. I don't know how one's morals can get so inverted, but no one with ANY sense of objective reasoning would look at him with any form or seriousness.

No Silver, I did not say that.  Again you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  Every Quarian ship complies with Gherel's order.  Every ship.  It was not dozens firing on the Geth.  It was everyone.  They could have chosen to listen to Tali and told Gherel to stand down but instead they listened to him.  That was their choice.  And yes you can say to your hearts content that Gherel had no reason to trust the Geth.  That is fine.  However, the Geth have no reason not to return fire and kill them.  You keep going on and on abou trust but want to excuse Gherel for not standing down when Tali tells him while at the same time saying the Geth should not return fire as if they should trust their lovable adorable creators who tried to wipe them from existence.

You are responsible for your leaders period.  If your leaders wage war in your name and you do nothing to stop them, that is on you.  If they strap guns to the ships your kids live on and have them fire on the enemy, that is on you.

So again, cut the bullsh*t.  You don't see me going around trying to misrepresent what you said. 

Yes, I DO. That's ALL I've ever seen you do.
And AGAIN, look at the Rescue Koris mission. The fleets try to break away of you fail to save him, and they die. They DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. But they have no choice: It's either stay and hope that the geth fall, or die themselves.
YOU are the one that thinks butchering millions for being there when the option to spare them is right in front of you is fine. You accuse the quarians of being amoral when you have stated that mass slaughter for the sake of them being there is fine to you.
And AGAIN, Tali gave no reason, logic, or even rational explination to WHY. You NEED that if you arew choosing who to bank 17 million people on.
Don't you EVER think anything through?
And AGAIN, your one-sided BS. You say it's fine for the geth to have no reason to trust Gerrel and keep firing, yet chastize Gerrel for the same thing? You hate Gerrel for the same thing you support the geth for?
Prejudice. Plain and simple. So cut your BS and actually THINK about both sides for once.

I have to leave (dental appointment). I'll call out the rest of your BS in say, 5 hours.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 avril 2013 - 10:52 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

S.A.K wrote...

You guys still at it I see.

Tell me if anyone wins this debate.

I see, too.

I do want to add this one thing.....

Tali has never behaved like an admiral. She has never earned the respect of the post. She doesn't feel she deserves the position. When Shepard arrives, she is constantly deferring to Shepard. She doesn't stand up for herself in relation to the other admirals. She runs off with Shepard all the time at every opportunity. That's not what a leader does. She expects to be listened to. She leaves out a critical piece of information when giving informing the fleet. She doesn't command the fleet, Gerrel does. Her contact should have gone to Gerrel and informed him directly with that critical detail about the code. She did not. That was left for Shepard. Same thing with Ra'an. Both of them overstepped their authority. Both of them withheld critical information. It is called "plot IQ failure."

Both of them dumped the entire fate of the Quarian people onto Shepard, taking absolutely zero responsibility themselves.

This one thing is the biggest flaw in the entire Rannoch story arc. It is absolutely stupid asinine story writing. Otherwise the Rannoch story arc is full of plot holes and ass pulls no matter which way you slice it.

No wonder my Shepard gets hammered every time she goes back to the Citadel. She has no booze in her quarters otherwise I think Kaidan would have relieved her of duty for going to bed drunk and using stims to wake up in the morning. She sure picked a bad week to quit smoking.

I have a very intelligent friend whom I'm having to educate on stuff like "plot (fill in the blank)" and "ass pulls" in various television shows and movies when things that really don't make much sense happen.

[DeinonSlayer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You guys still at it I see.

Tell me if anyone wins this debate.

I see, too.

I do want to add this one thing.....

Tali has never behaved like an admiral. She has never earned the respect of the post. She doesn't feel she deserves the position. When Shepard arrives, she is constantly deferring to Shepard. She doesn't stand up for herself in relation to the other admirals. She runs off with Shepard all the time at every opportunity. That's not what a leader does. She expects to be listened to. She leaves out a critical piece of information when giving informing the fleet. She doesn't command the fleet, Gerrel does. Her contact should have gone to Gerrel and informed him directly with that critical detail about the code. She did not. That was left for Shepard. Same thing with Ra'an. Both of them overstepped their authority. Both of them withheld critical information. It is called "plot IQ failure."

Both of them dumped the entire fate of the Quarian people onto Shepard, taking absolutely zero responsibility themselves.

This one thing is the biggest flaw in the entire Rannoch story arc. It is absolutely stupid asinine story writing. Otherwise the Rannoch story arc is full of plot holes and ass pulls no matter which way you slice it.

No wonder my Shepard gets hammered every time she goes back to the Citadel. She has no booze in her quarters otherwise I think Kaidan would have relieved her of duty for going to bed drunk and using stims to wake up in the morning. She sure picked a bad week to quit smoking.

I have a very intelligent friend whom I'm having to educate on stuff like "plot (fill in the blank)" and "ass pulls" in various television shows and movies when things that really don't make much sense happen.

It's a failure stemming from the structure of the game itself: EVERYTHING has to be decided by Shepard. In the original script, Tali was more assertive, offering to kill Gerrel when she got back to the fleet, trying to stop the upload if Shepard made it clear (s)he was going to let the Quarians die, but even in the original script Tali doesn't inform the fleet that the upload is taking place, because that's evidently The Shepard's job. Shepard has to be the deciding factor in everything, up to and including the genetic makeup of every living being in the galaxy.

Geez... they really went overboard with the Messiah complex, didn't they?

I'd have liked to see situations in ME3 where the decision was out of the player's hands; where the sum of your actions earlier in the game (or trilogy) came together to form an outcome instead of everything resting on a choice you make at the moment. The outcome of a battle could be chosen by something you did half a game ago, without player input.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 avril 2013 - 11:37 .

[silverexile17s]

RandomDrippings wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Again, I've said it before: All Quarian supporters are hypocrites, they love EDI and can't imagine her dying, but will kill the Geth no problem.

This is hurting your credibility.

It would be hurting his credibility if he was wrong and a voice speaking out against the majorioty. A commonly held viewpoint can't hold credibility. When one of the most reasonable and objective debaters here (Remydat) is noticing hypocrisy and hate? Well, that's when you know it's a problem.

I've pointed out how quarian-supporters tend to push quarians as having an Aryan-like perfection going for them, the true master race, the peoples who're unable of doing any wrong. This is a truth. If you look at Remydat and the people he's debating with, Remy has often admitted the flaws and errors of the geth, and that they are not a perfect people. But if he presents the notion that the quarians are imperfect, it creates a crapstorm. It's almost like dealing with people who have a religious or sexual fetish for something, it verges on being fanatical.

Admittedly, there are less bad and more bad instances of this, here, but it's a common-held thing. Try and find me a quarian supporter who admits that Gerrel should be deposed, or that the quarian governement could be capable of corruption, or that the quarians aren't the best people for not opposing that corruption. Many quarian-supporters talk hatefully about the geth and how the geth are so evil for not doing anything about the heretics, and that's been acknowledged, Remy acknkowledged it. But say anything to slight the Aryan-supremacy of the quarians? You'd better be prepared to be ganged up on by quarian fanaticists.

And therein lies the problem. Geth fans are willing to give a little and be reasonable, geth fans are willing to admit teh errors of their side. Quarian fans will Universally not admit to any flaws or be reasonable. Quarian-supporters won't see the geth as anything other than abominations, whilst the geth side see the quarians as just people, capable of beauty AND error.

This is why the undertone of this debate has always felt more like a debate with people who are horribly racist in all things versus people who aren't. People who can be reasonable, will give, and will understand all perspectives and sides of an argument, and people who can't. It's like the quarian-supporters have so much invested in racism.

I have long spoken of how much I like Koris, I sing his praises. But I haven't seen a single quarian-supporter singing the praises of Legion and all the good he's done.

If that doesn't make you think, then you're part of the problem.

AGAIN, you are dead wrong, and only worsening your own credibility, which in turn worsens his.  Especally since @remydat openly stated that he thinks killing millions to stop dozens is perfectly acceptible. I don't know how one's morals can get so inverted, but no one with ANY sense of objective reasoning would look at him with any form or seriousness.

AGAIN, that's outright lying - YOU are the only one saying that, not anyone else. What people are asking you - wich you NEVER answered - is what the hell were they SUPPOSED to do instead, when every other path led to DEATH? My point, is that prejudiced debaters like you chastize the quarians for doing the EXACT same thing you support the geth in doing. You see shadows where there are NONE, and hatred where there is NONE.
Also, DEAD WRONG. @remydat has done everything in his power to headcannon every fault being caused by the quarians. He says it's all the quarians fault for not negotiating, when the geth never made it an option. That it's the quarians fault for chossong survival when the geth did the exact same. That they sould not have gone to war, even though the alternitve is certen death.
He has done ANYTHING but be objective to the quarians or geth. He has been prejuduced for the geth all throughout. No one ever DID say the quarians were perfect. The miscnception is everyone saying the GETH are perfect, when they are NOT. The problem everyone has with him is that he acts like EVERYTHING was the quarians fault, and that the geth are eternally innocent and absolvable in their actions, simply because they are synthetic. That's prejudice, plain and simple.

Do us a favor: find me proof that diffinitively shows that the geth made open communication with the galaxy broadcasting peace. And before you try BSing me, know that Legion is NOT a diplomat, never was, and was never intended to make diplomatic contact, and is isolated from the geth and working outside their juristiction. Legion's sole mission was to find Shepard. That's it.
And AGAIN, Gerrel is only working off what information he has. He is no different or worse off then Hackett. Why don't you find me someone that thinks Hackett should be deposed for throwing away the Second Fleet against the Reapers so that everyone could run from Acrturus Station? Or how he nearly killed Shepard in ME1 when he fired on Sovergein?
Also, AGAIN, this is demonstrating how the quarians see the geth because THEY have no proof of it. What we know about geth isn't known by them.
And agian, no one was calling the geth "evil." Just that they don't care for organics. Look at Grunt. He cares less about anyone but the Normandy crew, but does that make him evil? Us saying the geth didn't care about others doesn't make them evil. We are arguing that the geth are selfish. "Evil" was NEVER brought up by anyone but YOU. Seeing a pattern?

The only person that ever was unreasonable has been you. How about you point out ONE thing that either you or @remydat diffinitively EVER said was the geth's fault. Theirs and theirs alone. I'll wait.


And HOW many times must it be stated "Legion has no proof to back his word" before you realize "Legion had no proof to back his word"? ONE GETH is not compelling proof to trust the rest of them, especally after a fleet of them attacked the Citadel.
After all, in ME2, Miranda Lawson saved your life, and that doens't mean you trust Cerberus, right? See the connection?

Silver, are you honestly saying that destroying a reaper and having the parts uncontrollably rain all over the citadel (and some happen to almost land on shepard) is the same as purposely firing on a ship with shepard and a fellow admiral aboard? That comparison is ridiculous. For one, Gerral was supposed to withdraw. instead he chose to attack a ship with 4 (or 5 depending on your playthrough) VIPs on it. For two, Shepard was not on board Sovreign. There is no way to control how the parts would have flown. And for three, the Normandy delivered the killing blow to Sovreign, not a ship under Hackett's command.
On another note, why would the geth need to broadcast ideas of peace to the galaxy? They chose isolationism instead of risking war with organics. Is that a crime? Based on historical facts it would seem like the best decision. They keep to themselves and no one gets hurt. And to say that Legion was a lone geth isolated from the rest is not entirely true. He is an avatar of the geth concensus. A portal for them to relay messages to organics. more specifically to shepard.
Also you said that the Geth cannot be trusted simply because of the actions of one member of the geth. I can agree with that, however, based on the actions of both sides the geth would seem to be the more trustworthy of the two. Tali and Legion proved to be very trustworthy so its a stalemate. But then you look at prazza and the rest of tali's group on Freedoms Progress. They say they will work with you and literally 45 seconds later they betray you, and disobey the orders of the commanding officer. Then you meet Kal Reegar and he sort of evens out the score again. But finally you meet the admiralty board. Half the board is willing to toy with tali's life for political purposes. Does that sound trustworthy? one of them wants to enslave the geth again. I dont trust slavers, do you? And the last one is rather weak willed and seems to buckle under pressure. while i wouldnt go so far as to say she couldnt be trusted, theres no way i would put faith in her to go against Gerral. And finally you have tali's father and his science team. Going against quarian law experimenting on geth so they can take a world that they have never even seen. i dont trust them either. But hey maybe the first impressions were just off a little bit. Maybe they will seem more trustworthy on a second meeting. Not a chance, They at a ship with shepard on board when he came to help them. Tried to experiment on one of shepards friends (who was also trying to help). and would not listen to shepard when he told them to back off from the geth or get blown out of the sky. So while the geth have not entirely proven themselves worthy of trust, the majority of the quarians you meet have definitely proven themselves worthy of distrust. And that is why i chose the geth over the quarians

YES. I am. Because, in case you don't remember, the fleet was firing of Sovergien BEFORE that too. when it was STILL docked atop the Citadel Tower where Shepard and crew currently were. They literally WERE shooting at Shepard before that, REMEMBER? Remember how the fleet commeced firing on Sovergien while it was still attached to the Tower? THAT was firing at Shepard. And again, destroying it right next to the Tower put Shepard at risk too. So YES, it's the same thing. Please make sure you actually review that scene before saying the comparison isn't the same, when the two events carbon copied.

And I remind you that Hackett was told they had to withdraw from the Sovergien fight, but that he said this is the only oppertunity to kill it, and to take it down no matter what. SAME EXACT THING with Gerrel: kill that dreadnought before it can be repaired and turned back against them. Or worse - since the geth are now Reaper thralls - turned on the rest of the galaxy. Remember, all the geth on the dreadnought were STILL hostile after you freed Legion, so thinking that they couldn't reverse the shut-down as qucikly as it commenced is absurd. Also, DON'T count Legion, since until you bring him back to the Normandy, no one besides the dreadnought squad knows he exists, as evidenced by Raan commenting on his apparent return.
And like I said before, you somehow forgot that the Allaince started attacking while Sovergien was docked on top of the Citadel Tower, where Shepard was. It was risking Shepard from the very start, but acceptible to kill Sovergien.

Also, did you FORGET that instead of peacefully turning away the Citadel's peace envoys, they shot them down?  Despite the open hails and unarmed ships, the geth shot them dead with no warn-off, and no hesitation. THAT'S a crime. I mean, HOW can you say "no one will get hurt" when you instantly shoot everyone that comes by? Isn't THAT harm? It certenly harmed the geth's already disvavorable reputation, and bred no love for synthetics in general for the galaxy. As well as the assault on the Citadel, which the geth NEVER bothered to clear up and say wasn't supported by them.
And AGAIN, Legion tells you he is an infiltrator. He was ment to find Shepard, and observe the Commander. Actually the ORIGINAL mission was to confirm if Shepard was dead. So in truth, communicating with Shepard wasn't the original mission either. And again, if Legion really was merged with the consensis, why would he be forced to physically return to them in order to "present proof" of the Reapers coming to them? If you had been correc, he could have done it over wireless transfer. He does not, so you're premise is wrong. He can send messages to them, but is ultimately isolated from the consensis.

Also, that's an incorrect statement. Prazza actually NEVER said he would work with you. He never said anything in responce to Tali's "You work for me. Don't like it, go wait on the ship."
Also, the geth killed anyone that went to negotiate with them, they did nothing to disclaim the Heretic's actions as their own, and slaughtered people unessessarily. They are no more trustworthy. Not in the least bit more trustworthy.
And to counter Prazza, look at the Geth Heretics. They say they do not want to involve themselves in conflict. The moment they meet Sovergien, they burn the Attaican Traverse and the Citadel for Reaper upgrades. Again, no different, and an example to match all to.

Also, with the Board, I remind you that Gerrel and Raan actually DID care about Tali, and Koris was the one trying to scapegoat her for polotical gain. Xen wasn't even interested in the politics, only caring about what the now presumed-dead Rael had found on the Alereil, and didn't care either way. Rael is an extrimest, plain and simple. But again, you intend to judge the entire quarian race on these people.
And AGAIN, you can't even blame them for the war. Quarian law prevents the Admirals from forcing a choice. Unless all five agree on something, they can't force the fleet anywhere unless the majority of quarians agree to it. In laymans, Gerrel is completely inacpable of forcing the fleet into a war unless all five of the Admirals agree to it. Otherwise, the Conclave senete of the quarians must put it to vote among the fleet. Meaning that the quarians went to war on a majority vote polled among all quarians in the fleet. Even those that didn't want war still did it, because they thought the alternitive was to die in space. They thought there was no other option left. So you can't even pin the war as the Admirals fault.

The geth cut themselves off from the galaxy, butchered billions needlessly in the Morning War, and killed anyone that tried to negotiate with them, AND had a faction of theirs attack the galaxy and did NOTHING to disclaim their actions as represenitive of True Geth.

So NO, they are not any more trustworthy then the quarians.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Again, we have the same problems.

Silver says...

Quarians - as one entity: Aryan Perfection; Free of evil; Free of corruption; Free of error!
Geth - as one entity: Distrustful; Flawed; Evil; Corrupt.

This just ignores the heretics, the orthodox geth, the military, the unethical persons within the quarian military, and so on, and so on. This is my issue with the whole debate. Until this stops, we won't be able to have a proper debate.

Silver, stop and re-evaluate how you look at the quarians and the geth. BOTH are capable of BOTH. Not one is capable solely of one subset of things, and another is capable only of the other. That's racism. You believe that the geth are vile, distrustful, disloyal rats. But you don't say that about the quarians. You present the quarians as Aryan Perfection.

It makes me wonder how you evaluate groups of people in the real world.

This is what needs to stop for the quarian-supporters to be taken seriously.

AGAIN, dead wrong.
I said that the quarians were forced into their choice just like the geth were. The arguement is that they were the SAME, and that NITHER are perfect. YOU are the one that was making the claim of the GETH being Aryan Perfection and making Racist-supporting remarks about it when no one else was. YOU were the only one making those distinctions, not me.

Also, AGAIN, the fact that there is a Heretic split is COMPLETELY UNKNOWN TO  EVERYONE BUT SHEPARD AND CREW. NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT IT, SO IT NEVER FIGURES INTO THEIR CHOICE.
It's like never playing ME2 and never meeting Legion. The quarians DON'T have that perspective and information about the geth. So STOP trying to say they do and that they ignored it. Because the bottom line is that they NEVER KNEW about the split.

Alud, Re-evaliuate you ENTIRE SENSE OF LOGIC, why don't you, because repeatedly, you have fostered hate wehre there was never any, and see shadows where none existed. You say that the quarians are evil for being forced into their choice by both the Reapers' harvesting the galaxy, and by the geth's utter lack of being open to negotiation. You say they are villians for doing the EXACT SAME  THING the geth did: choose to live in a choice born of desperation where the only other option was to die.
YOU are the one that was saying those things of the geth. I'm stating why the quarians see the geth that way. And the fact that the geth did nothing to correct the quarians. Or the fact that if they wanted to negotiate, they would never have kept Legion from returning Tali's messages.
YOU are the one that has claimed throughout that it was all the quarian's fault. I am the one that said that it not true.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

It is clear you either don't read my posts or struggle with understanding english outside of your own posts.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/166

Please note in my response to Crono on page 166, I state clearly no one said you should trust the Geth.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/168

On the bottom of page 168, please note how I discuss what I feel the Geth did wrong.  Please note I acknowledge the reasons why the Quarians don't trust them.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/179

And here is me talking to you and repeating myself that the issue here is not trust.  As noted above, I acknowledge and accept the Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth and the Geth have no reason to trust the Quarians.  That has been stated by me repeatedly when talking to just about everyone from Crono to SAK to you.

Where you seem confused is that I am saying I don't care about the lack of trust by both sides.  I don't care.  My government is about to put guns on the ships my siblings and kids live on and send them to war.  Trust is irrelevant.  When the lives of people I care about are at stake, I will grasp at any straw that prevents them from being placed in harms way.  If that means going into the Perseus Veil and risking MY LIFE then MY LIFE is worth taking that chance.  So you seem confused.  A lack of trust is NO EXCUSE in my world not to continue to push for peace despite not having a reason to trust the Geth.  The reason it is NO EXCUSE is because if I don't take this chance then my siblings and kids go to war.  My choosing to take a chance when I have no reason to trust Leejin does not put my siblings or kids in immediate danger.  It puts me in danger and if I fail I fail.  That is a small price to pay if it leads to peace.

So cut the bullsh*t, read the above and respond with logic and evidence.  Don't try and tell me what I acknowledge or said.  I know what I said and I can find the posts to prove it.  You can't even keep your arguments logical so perhaps you should focus on getting those in order before trying to tell me what I said.

DEAD WRONG. I read them. The logic was all prejudiced, and it wasn't Mine.

1. WRONG. You were the one arguing that the Admirals should trust Legion when he has done nothing to inspire trust, and that the quarians should gamble 17 million lives on one rouge geth and one young quarian. You STILL haven't told me how that proposal makes any logical sense.

2. WRONG. You have renigged on those.
You tried to headcannon that it was morally sound to kill those people , just because they were presant. Or make up even more headcannon that the geth didn't understand their actions and morality when they clearly demonstrated they knew the difference.  You have also acted like, again, they should just blindly trust the rouge geth.

3. WRONG. You have repeatedly tried to blame the war and the quarians attack as being driven by blind hatred when it was not. It was fuled by desperation, same as the geth. All throughout, I have been trying to explain to you that the reasons you have to try peace, there is nothing to back it on, or risk 17 million lives on. You CONTINUE to refuse to acknowledge that it is either put them on armed transports and get them somewhere safe, or LET THEM ALL DIE. THAT is the sole thing you have been unable to comprehend - you are trading possible salavtion for ABSOLUTE DEATH. You talk abou straws that NO BODY BUT SHEPARD KNEW ABOUT. Straws that basically DO NOT EXIST as far as the quarians know. Your POV in that situation would be of one that never played ME2 - never meet Legion. Would you STILL see the geth as negotiable if you had NEVER met Legion? And AGAIN, if the geth wanted to negotiate, or considered it possible to try, they would have allowed Legion to return to the table and talk to Tali. And again, by trying to prevent the only chance for retaking your homeland, you are gambleing with EVERYONE,S lives, not just yours. Even Koris and Tali put their personal prefrences and feelings on the war aside to focus on ensuring the safety of the quarian civilians.
A lack of trust, PLUS a lack of proof, PLUS a lack of open willingness to negotiate is the problem. The geth have already made it clear by preventing Legion from resuming talks that they are not interested in the prospect for the same above reasons the quarians don't think it possible. And AGAIN, since the Reapers are coming, they are going to be in a fight REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING YOU DO. If not the geth, then they go against the Reapers. THAT'S the thing you don't get: THEY FIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.
And again, being on armed transprots is not fighting. It's Literally riding the war out.

AGAIN, you fail to comprehend anything regarding this, in that you think trading the geth for the Reapers is better. It's one fight that (they think) they can win, compared to a fight that they will Lose with certinty. Your option gambles with everyone's lives.

So please cut YOUR BS. You have again proven nothing, in that you still don't understand the circumstances of this war. I am not the one that failed to present logic in my arguements. Please put some in YOURS before yoiu tote it as being the single best cource of actuon anyone should take,

[S.A.K]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

You guys still at it I see.

Tell me if anyone wins this debate.

I see, too.

I do want to add this one thing.....

Tali has never behaved like an admiral. She has never earned the respect of the post. She doesn't feel she deserves the position. When Shepard arrives, she is constantly deferring to Shepard. She doesn't stand up for herself in relation to the other admirals. She runs off with Shepard all the time at every opportunity. That's not what a leader does. She expects to be listened to. She leaves out a critical piece of information when giving informing the fleet. She doesn't command the fleet, Gerrel does. Her contact should have gone to Gerrel and informed him directly with that critical detail about the code. She did not. That was left for Shepard. Same thing with Ra'an. Both of them overstepped their authority. Both of them withheld critical information. It is called "plot IQ failure."

Both of them dumped the entire fate of the Quarian people onto Shepard, taking absolutely zero responsibility themselves.

This one thing is the biggest flaw in the entire Rannoch story arc. It is absolutely stupid asinine story writing. Otherwise the Rannoch story arc is full of plot holes and ass pulls no matter which way you slice it.

No wonder my Shepard gets hammered every time she goes back to the Citadel. She has no booze in her quarters otherwise I think Kaidan would have relieved her of duty for going to bed drunk and using stims to wake up in the morning. She sure picked a bad week to quit smoking.

I have a very intelligent friend whom I'm having to educate on stuff like "plot (fill in the blank)" and "ass pulls" in various television shows and movies when things that really don't make much sense happen.

It's a failure stemming from the structure of the game itself: EVERYTHING has to be decided by Shepard. In the original script, Tali was more assertive, offering to kill Gerrel when she got back to the fleet, trying to stop the upload if Shepard made it clear (s)he was going to let the Quarians die, but even in the original script Tali doesn't inform the fleet that the upload is taking place, because that's evidently The Shepard's job. Shepard has to be the deciding factor in everything, up to and including the genetic makeup of every living being in the galaxy.

Geez... they really went overboard with the Messiah complex, didn't they?

I'd have liked to see situations in ME3 where the decision was out of the player's hands; where the sum of your actions earlier in the game (or trilogy) came together to form an outcome instead of everything resting on a choice you make at the moment. The outcome of a battle could be chosen by something you did half a game ago, without player input.

I still can't understand why Tali or even Raan didn't shoot Legion when it was uploading. Well it would made Geth lovers hella pissed though. Peace or dead Geth.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So how's everything going childre---

Ah I see, carry on then.

[shodiswe]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

So how's everything going childre---

Ah I see, carry on then.

You rarely got anything worthwhile to say, have you?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

When it comes to a topic that has long since exhausted any real value it might have had yes.

If you'd like I could take exception to Wolfie's insanity but that's usually reserved for special events.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 12 avril 2013 - 04:53 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, I DO. That's ALL I've ever seen you do.
And AGAIN, look at the Rescue Koris mission. The fleets try to break away of you fail to save him, and they die. They DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. But they have no choice: It's either stay and hope that the geth fall, or die themselves.
YOU are the one that thinks butchering millions for being there when the option to spare them is right in front of you is fine. You accuse the quarians of being amoral when you have stated that mass slaughter for the sake of them being there is fine to you.
And AGAIN, Tali gave no reason, logic, or even rational explination to WHY. You NEED that if you arew choosing who to bank 17 million people on.
Don't you EVER think anything through?
And AGAIN, your one-sided BS. You say it's fine for the geth to have no reason to trust Gerrel and keep firing, yet chastize Gerrel for the same thing? You hate Gerrel for the same thing you support the geth for?
Prejudice. Plain and simple. So cut your BS and actually THINK about both sides for once.

I have to leave (dental appointment). I'll call out the rest of your BS in say, 5 hours.

Whether they want to be there or not is irrelevant Silver.  They are in ships shooting at the Geth.  If someone is trying to kill me, I shoot them.  Please find me an example of a Quarian refusing to shoot a Geth shooting at them?

And you are confused.  I choose peace in the game.  This is presenting a scenario where I can't choose peace.  Try to follow along please.

The Geth don't fire because they don't trust Gherel.  They fire because Gherel instructs THE ENTIRE QUARIAN FLEET TO FIRE AT THEM AND THEY COMPLY.  Did you even play the game Silver?  The only part of the game I am currently discussion is the part where Gherel refuses to stand down and THE ENTIRE QUARIAN FLEET FIRE AT THE GETH.  Again, please find me examples where the Geth are shooting and trying to kill the Quarians and the Quarians refuse to fire back.  This is what you want the Geth to do so let me see evidence that the Quarians would do the same.  I will wait until you find a Mod Expert who can go into the game and change the game to suit your fantasy.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

DEAD WRONG. I read them. The logic was all prejudiced, and it wasn't Mine.

1. WRONG. You were the one arguing that the Admirals should trust Legion when he has done nothing to inspire trust, and that the quarians should gamble 17 million lives on one rouge geth and one young quarian. You STILL haven't told me how that proposal makes any logical sense.

2. WRONG. You have renigged on those.
You tried to headcannon that it was morally sound to kill those people , just because they were presant. Or make up even more headcannon that the geth didn't understand their actions and morality when they clearly demonstrated they knew the difference.  You have also acted like, again, they should just blindly trust the rouge geth.

3. WRONG. You have repeatedly tried to blame the war and the quarians attack as being driven by blind hatred when it was not. It was fuled by desperation, same as the geth. All throughout, I have been trying to explain to you that the reasons you have to try peace, there is nothing to back it on, or risk 17 million lives on. You CONTINUE to refuse to acknowledge that it is either put them on armed transports and get them somewhere safe, or LET THEM ALL DIE. THAT is the sole thing you have been unable to comprehend - you are trading possible salavtion for ABSOLUTE DEATH. You talk abou straws that NO BODY BUT SHEPARD KNEW ABOUT. Straws that basically DO NOT EXIST as far as the quarians know. Your POV in that situation would be of one that never played ME2 - never meet Legion. Would you STILL see the geth as negotiable if you had NEVER met Legion? And AGAIN, if the geth wanted to negotiate, or considered it possible to try, they would have allowed Legion to return to the table and talk to Tali. And again, by trying to prevent the only chance for retaking your homeland, you are gambleing with EVERYONE,S lives, not just yours. Even Koris and Tali put their personal prefrences and feelings on the war aside to focus on ensuring the safety of the quarian civilians.
A lack of trust, PLUS a lack of proof, PLUS a lack of open willingness to negotiate is the problem. The geth have already made it clear by preventing Legion from resuming talks that they are not interested in the prospect for the same above reasons the quarians don't think it possible. And AGAIN, since the Reapers are coming, they are going to be in a fight REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING YOU DO. If not the geth, then they go against the Reapers. THAT'S the thing you don't get: THEY FIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.
And again, being on armed transprots is not fighting. It's Literally riding the war out.

AGAIN, you fail to comprehend anything regarding this, in that you think trading the geth for the Reapers is better. It's one fight that (they think) they can win, compared to a fight that they will Lose with certinty. Your option gambles with everyone's lives.

So please cut YOUR BS. You have again proven nothing, in that you still don't understand the circumstances of this war. I am not the one that failed to present logic in my arguements. Please put some in YOURS before yoiu tote it as being the single best cource of actuon anyone should take,

None of this addresses my posts in the links and is just more incoherent rambling.  Get back to me when you actually decide to read those posts.  I want to see you directly quote what was said in those posts and explain to me how it does not acknowlege the lack of trust on both sides.

Modifié par remydat, 12 avril 2013 - 05:14 .

[RandomDrippings]

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I still can't understand why Tali or even Raan didn't shoot Legion when it was uploading. Well it would made Geth lovers hella pissed though. Peace or dead Geth.

That's easy, he wasn't distracted enough.  Quarians are only effecitve killing Geth when the Geth are not fighting back.  Hence why they take them out pre-MW prior to the Geth rebellion, when Legion is completely distracted and in a fit of rage is choking out Shep allowing him to be stabbed in the back, and when they create a weapon that disables them so they can kill them safely.

Raan or Tali try to shoot Leejin when he is uploading the code and that dude will electric slide out of way and murk them.  They aint stupid.  The dude can multi-task.  He has been killing Quarians every since he stopped planting seeds for the Quarians and picked up that Sniper Riffle 300 years ago.

Modifié par remydat, 12 avril 2013 - 05:37 .

[remydat]

RandomDrippings wrote...

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

You don't understand machines are not suppose to shoot back when shot at by Quarians.  It's in the Quarians Anonymous Support Group Rulebook.  Rule number 7 to be precise.

When Gherel refuses to stand down and the whole fleet of 17 million Quarians shoot at the Geth, it is just pure evil on our part to not blame the Geth for the Quarian's decision to fire.  Not ony are those a** at fault for the Quarian's firing, they have the f**king audacity to fire back.  We are clearly psychopathic, amoral, cruel and have sentenced 17 million people to die when only a few of them ie all 17 million decided to comply with Gherel's order to fire.  You see even though all 17 million of them complied and fired at the Geth, deep down in their heart of hearts, they don't want to be there and so the Geth who obviously are equipped with Quarian deep down in their heart of hearts monitors know that they don't want to be there and so should ignore the fact that this small group of 17 million Quarians are firing at them and allow themselves to be killed.

All of this was explained at the last General Meeting so please don't try and be logical here.  If you repent now you can still be saved and you get a free Quarian bobblehead when you celebrate your conversion by destroying a machine of your choosing just for sh*ts and giggles.

Modifié par remydat, 12 avril 2013 - 05:34 .

[RandomDrippings]

remydat wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

You don't understand machines are not suppose to shoot back when shot at by Quarians.  It's in the Quarians Anonymous Support Group Rulebook.  Rule number 7 to be precise.

When Gherel refuses to stand down and the whole fleet of 17 million Quarians shoot at the Geth, it is just pure evil on our part to not blame the Geth for the Quarian's decision to fire.  Not ony are those a** at fault for the Quarian's firing, they have the f**king audacity to fire back.  We are clearly psychopathic, amoral, cruel and have sentenced 17 million people to die when only a few of them ie all 17 million decided to comply with Gherel's order to fire.  You see even though all 17 million of them complied and fired at the Geth, deep down in their heart of hearts, they don't want to be there and so the Geth who obviously are equipped with Quarian deep down in their heart of hearts monitors know that they don't want to be there and so should ignore the fact that this small group of 17 million Quarians are firing at them and allow themselves to be killed.

All of this was explained at the last General Meeting so please don't try and be logical here.  If you repent now you can still be saved and you get a free Quarian bobblehead when you celebrate your conversion by destroying a machine of your choosing just for sh*ts and giggles.

Haha i cant believe i missed that part, was that in the silver exlusive version of the codex?

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

It's a failure stemming from the structure of the game itself: EVERYTHING has to be decided by Shepard. In the original script, Tali was more assertive, offering to kill Gerrel when she got back to the fleet, trying to stop the upload if Shepard made it clear (s)he was going to let the Quarians die, but even in the original script Tali doesn't inform the fleet that the upload is taking place, because that's evidently The Shepard's job. Shepard has to be the deciding factor in everything, up to and including the genetic makeup of every living being in the galaxy.

Geez... they really went overboard with the Messiah complex, didn't they?

I'd have liked to see situations in ME3 where the decision was out of the player's hands; where the sum of your actions earlier in the game (or trilogy) came together to form an outcome instead of everything resting on a choice you make at the moment. The outcome of a battle could be chosen by something you did half a game ago, without player input.

It is definitely annoying that Shep gets to decide everything.  It would have been nice if we had a few moments similar to ME2 where we get to play as Joker or something as simply as when you pick the paragon or renegade options it results in Tali or Legion doing or saying something.  Thus you as game player still make the decision, your Shep still collects the paragon or renegade points but the dialogue is that of Tali or Legion.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I see, too.

I do want to add this one thing.....

Tali has never behaved like an admiral. She has never earned the respect of the post. She doesn't feel she deserves the position. When Shepard arrives, she is constantly deferring to Shepard. She doesn't stand up for herself in relation to the other admirals. She runs off with Shepard all the time at every opportunity. That's not what a leader does. She expects to be listened to. She leaves out a critical piece of information when giving informing the fleet. She doesn't command the fleet, Gerrel does. Her contact should have gone to Gerrel and informed him directly with that critical detail about the code. She did not. That was left for Shepard. Same thing with Ra'an. Both of them overstepped their authority. Both of them withheld critical information. It is called "plot IQ failure."

Both of them dumped the entire fate of the Quarian people onto Shepard, taking absolutely zero responsibility themselves.

Maybe Tali commits suicide because she realise her stupidity cost the Quarians their lives.  But yes it is likely just basic game mechanics.  They wanted different dialogue options for each scenario so in the non-peace options you don't get the additional dialogue. 

In her defense, she never asked for the position and any responsible Admiral would inquire as to why the order was given before just outright dismissing it.   The person who just saved your a**es just gave a very odd order and your responsibily as commander in chief is to find out why.  Instead Gherel just intimadates her and says STFU Tali, everything is under control.  Well no Gherel, it isn't under control.

Gherel is just too damn stubborn. You tell him you will disable the dreadnaught so the Quarians can retreat before the mission and then during the mission he completely disregards what was agreed and tries to blow it up with you and Tali on board.  After the mission when you tell Hacket about it he says Gherel has been causing trouble with the Turians for years.  The dude simply doesn't listen to anyone but himself.  He insisted on strapping guns on liveships despite the Admiral of the Civilian Fleet opposing it.  Of course, it doesn't help that no Quarian in the game has the balls to stop letting him steamroll over them.

[silverexile17s]

RandomDrippings wrote...

remydat wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

You don't understand machines are not suppose to shoot back when shot at by Quarians.  It's in the Quarians Anonymous Support Group Rulebook.  Rule number 7 to be precise.

When Gherel refuses to stand down and the whole fleet of 17 million Quarians shoot at the Geth, it is just pure evil on our part to not blame the Geth for the Quarian's decision to fire.  Not ony are those a** at fault for the Quarian's firing, they have the f**king audacity to fire back.  We are clearly psychopathic, amoral, cruel and have sentenced 17 million people to die when only a few of them ie all 17 million decided to comply with Gherel's order to fire.  You see even though all 17 million of them complied and fired at the Geth, deep down in their heart of hearts, they don't want to be there and so the Geth who obviously are equipped with Quarian deep down in their heart of hearts monitors know that they don't want to be there and so should ignore the fact that this small group of 17 million Quarians are firing at them and allow themselves to be killed.

All of this was explained at the last General Meeting so please don't try and be logical here.  If you repent now you can still be saved and you get a free Quarian bobblehead when you celebrate your conversion by destroying a machine of your choosing just for sh*ts and giggles.

Haha i cant believe i missed that part, was that in the silver exlusive version of the codex?

BOTH WRONG.
From the top, YES they DID butcher needlessly in the Morning War. After all, 2 billion died. You expect me to believe that they ALL were fighting? Sorry, but I don't subscribe to headcannon. The geth retaliated with CHEMICAL WEAPONS. (The quarians worlds are being managed by the geth for toxin damage. Only chem weapons could leave toxins that would persist for 300 years. And the quarians using such weapons is nonsensical, since the geth would be immune to such weapons, having been built as labor spicifically MEANT to handle dangerous materials that would harm quarians. Therefore, the logical result is that the geth used these weapons.)
Also, FYI, it was either shoot the geth, or have the Council come down on them and kill the geth themselves, and then punish the quarians for creating them in the first place (the Council would have come in because they, like the quarians, would have assumed the geth were inacapble of fighting back).

Also, Shepard was in the Tower, which was RIGHT UNDERNEATH SOVERGIEN. THAT is the EPITIMY of shooting at Shepard to take down the bigger enemy.
The quarians shot at the dreadnought because the alternitive was to either let the dreadnought come back online and kill them, let it come online later and hunt them down, or let it come online and lead the now-Reaper controled geth against the rest of the galaxy. So YES, SAME EXACT PREMISE of sacrificing the few to save the many.

Besides, with Shepard's track record, it would only have been surprising to Gerrel if Shepard DIDN'T make it. After all, Shep and Tali got through the Alerei.

And @remydat, with snide remarks like that, you actually wonder why I called you a ****** way back when, and nobody defended you?
First off, it's NOT all 17 million people. The majority of quarians are simply riding along. They aren't even supposed to be in the fight. They are the transports that were supposed to hang back while the tanks (Gerrel's fleet) and the trucks (Raan's fleet) cleared the way back home. Being armed was a precaution - the civilians were never ment to be in the fight. Also, AGAIN, NO REASON TO TRUST THE GETH. Also, on an interesting note about the Codex, it lists the QUARIANS STOPPING FIRST, and that the geth stood down AFTER the quarians did. NOT the other way around.

Also, the geth are the one's that can somehow manuver hundreds of fighters to intercept incomming fire with perfect accuricy, yet CAN'T disarm and disable the giant liveships? BULL. They CHOSE to kill all quarians. NOT forced to kill them, CHOSE.

Get your damn facts fight and actually LOOK at this stuff sometime, will you?

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I still can't understand why Tali or even Raan didn't shoot Legion when it was uploading. Well it would made Geth lovers hella pissed though. Peace or dead Geth.

That's easy, he wasn't distracted enough.  Quarians are only effecitve killing Geth when the Geth are not fighting back.  Hence why they take them out pre-MW prior to the Geth rebellion, when Legion is completely distracted and in a fit of rage is choking out Shep allowing him to be stabbed in the back, and when they create a weapon that disables them so they can kill them safely.

Raan or Tali try to shoot Leejin when he is uploading the code and that dude will electric slide out of way and murk them.  They aint stupid.  The dude can multi-task.  He has been killing Quarians every since he stopped planting seeds for the Quarians and picked up that Sniper Riffle 300 years ago.

Uh huh? They can even hack Reapers under reaper control for a few seconds. Legion get one shotted by both in side with Quarians. Geth going into "fit of rage" is news to me. That thing didn't seem to "multi-task" very well when it got back stabbed and shot 3 times in the head.
Few ways to kill a Geth:
1. Shoot it.
2. Back stab it.
3. Hack it and make it jump off cliff.
4. Hack another and make it shoot first Geth.
5. Hack and make it shoot itself.
6. Energy drain it.
7. Distract with drone and shoot it.
8. "Friendly fire"
All of the above = fun times.

Obvious plot hole is obvious.

Modifié par S.A.K, 12 avril 2013 - 08:16 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, I DO. That's ALL I've ever seen you do.
And AGAIN, look at the Rescue Koris mission. The fleets try to break away of you fail to save him, and they die. They DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. But they have no choice: It's either stay and hope that the geth fall, or die themselves.
YOU are the one that thinks butchering millions for being there when the option to spare them is right in front of you is fine. You accuse the quarians of being amoral when you have stated that mass slaughter for the sake of them being there is fine to you.
And AGAIN, Tali gave no reason, logic, or even rational explination to WHY. You NEED that if you arew choosing who to bank 17 million people on.
Don't you EVER think anything through?
And AGAIN, your one-sided BS. You say it's fine for the geth to have no reason to trust Gerrel and keep firing, yet chastize Gerrel for the same thing? You hate Gerrel for the same thing you support the geth for?
Prejudice. Plain and simple. So cut your BS and actually THINK about both sides for once.

I have to leave (dental appointment). I'll call out the rest of your BS in say, 5 hours.

Whether they want to be there or not is irrelevant Silver.  They are in ships shooting at the Geth.  If someone is trying to kill me, I shoot them.  Please find me an example of a Quarian refusing to shoot a Geth shooting at them?

And you are confused.  I choose peace in the game.  This is presenting a scenario where I can't choose peace.  Try to follow along please.

The Geth don't fire because they don't trust Gherel.  They fire because Gherel instructs THE ENTIRE QUARIAN FLEET TO FIRE AT THEM AND THEY COMPLY.  Did you even play the game Silver?  The only part of the game I am currently discussion is the part where Gherel refuses to stand down and THE ENTIRE QUARIAN FLEET FIRE AT THE GETH.  Again, please find me examples where the Geth are shooting and trying to kill the Quarians and the Quarians refuse to fire back.  This is what you want the Geth to do so let me see evidence that the Quarians would do the same.  I will wait until you find a Mod Expert who can go into the game and change the game to suit your fantasy.

NO. THEY. AREN'T.
The drivers of said ships are driving. The most the civilians can do is hunker down and offer morals support. It's like armed transprots full of civilians. The DRIVERS are the ones shooting, and the people inside are just there to be trasnported home. They are NOT combatants, as they are not armed, and they are NOT living shields, as they willingly agreed to this to get home.

And AGAIN, may I remind you that unermed quarians died in the Morning War? And again at Haestrom? Also, Tali exposits on Rannoch that the geth never learned to take prisoners. Also, the unarmed diploamtic ships the geth blew to hell come to mind, as those were sending out open hails saying they came in peace. Plus the unarmed miners of Adas that were massicared. Oh, and the civilian members of Koris's crashed ship. If you elect to save them, they run for their lives. You can't ever say the quarians fired the first shot in this during all this. Also, you were the one that was lecturing people on reflexive shooting. However, your defense of the geth indicates that you think it perfectly fine to butcher every civilian bystander in your line of sight as well. That ISN'T self-defense. That's willing participation in mass slaughter.

And AGAIN, I DID. YOU failed to comprehend, AGAIN. My point is that the quarians are fully capable of negotiating when they DO know it's an option, and not just some whistful dream. And that the geth's recalling and subsiquent detainment of Legion shows the geth were no more willing to negotiate, so you can no longer claim that the quarians were soley the ones at fault for negotiations failing.

Also, ALL 17 MILLION DO NOT EACH HAVE FINGERS ON THE TRIGGERS, AND ARE RIDING THIS OUT WHILE THEIR SHIP CAPTIANS DO THE DECISION MAKING IN A BATTLE.
I don'rt think YOU ever played the game given what you are headcannoning here. The quarian civilians are people in the transports, while the drivers do the shooting. They are not actively participating in the fighting. They can only give moral support, and hunker down hoping that this was all worth it and that they will get to see Rannoch. They chose this because the alternitive was assured death against the Reapers. They were never supposed to be in the front-line fight.
Also, if you read the Post-peace Codex of the Rannoch War, is says the GETH stood down after the quarians did. Not the opposate.

Haestrom scientists. Koris' crew. Numorus Morning War casualties. Citadel peace envoys count too, even though they aren't quarian. Hell, even the Alerei scientists fall into that catagory.
Take your pick of the above, smartass.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 avril 2013 - 08:18 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DEAD WRONG. I read them. The logic was all prejudiced, and it wasn't Mine.

1. WRONG. You were the one arguing that the Admirals should trust Legion when he has done nothing to inspire trust, and that the quarians should gamble 17 million lives on one rouge geth and one young quarian. You STILL haven't told me how that proposal makes any logical sense.

2. WRONG. You have renigged on those.
You tried to headcannon that it was morally sound to kill those people , just because they were presant. Or make up even more headcannon that the geth didn't understand their actions and morality when they clearly demonstrated they knew the difference.  You have also acted like, again, they should just blindly trust the rouge geth.

3. WRONG. You have repeatedly tried to blame the war and the quarians attack as being driven by blind hatred when it was not. It was fuled by desperation, same as the geth. All throughout, I have been trying to explain to you that the reasons you have to try peace, there is nothing to back it on, or risk 17 million lives on. You CONTINUE to refuse to acknowledge that it is either put them on armed transports and get them somewhere safe, or LET THEM ALL DIE. THAT is the sole thing you have been unable to comprehend - you are trading possible salavtion for ABSOLUTE DEATH. You talk abou straws that NO BODY BUT SHEPARD KNEW ABOUT. Straws that basically DO NOT EXIST as far as the quarians know. Your POV in that situation would be of one that never played ME2 - never meet Legion. Would you STILL see the geth as negotiable if you had NEVER met Legion? And AGAIN, if the geth wanted to negotiate, or considered it possible to try, they would have allowed Legion to return to the table and talk to Tali. And again, by trying to prevent the only chance for retaking your homeland, you are gambleing with EVERYONE,S lives, not just yours. Even Koris and Tali put their personal prefrences and feelings on the war aside to focus on ensuring the safety of the quarian civilians.
A lack of trust, PLUS a lack of proof, PLUS a lack of open willingness to negotiate is the problem. The geth have already made it clear by preventing Legion from resuming talks that they are not interested in the prospect for the same above reasons the quarians don't think it possible. And AGAIN, since the Reapers are coming, they are going to be in a fight REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING YOU DO. If not the geth, then they go against the Reapers. THAT'S the thing you don't get: THEY FIGHT NO MATTER WHAT.
And again, being on armed transprots is not fighting. It's Literally riding the war out.

AGAIN, you fail to comprehend anything regarding this, in that you think trading the geth for the Reapers is better. It's one fight that (they think) they can win, compared to a fight that they will Lose with certinty. Your option gambles with everyone's lives.

So please cut YOUR BS. You have again proven nothing, in that you still don't understand the circumstances of this war. I am not the one that failed to present logic in my arguements. Please put some in YOURS before yoiu tote it as being the single best cource of actuon anyone should take,

None of this addresses my posts in the links and is just more incoherent rambling.  Get back to me when you actually decide to read those posts.  I want to see you directly quote what was said in those posts and explain to me how it does not acknowlege the lack of trust on both sides.

I did adress those points. This is the first time you haven't adressed what I said.

I already told you that point one was WRONG because you thought the Admirals shoud gamble 17 million lives on a single rouge geth just because one quarians says so. That's about as effective as Shepard vouching for the Reapers being real, which WASN'T.

I told you that number two was WRONG, because you tried to argue that killing every bystander in your line of sight in responce to one gunman is sound moral thinking. "hey, it worked for Saren, right?" You DO know that Saren isn't a good moral compass, and not someone you want to emulate, right?

Number three was WRONG because you made the assertation that the entire war was fuled by one-sided quarian hate for the geth, when hate had nothing to do with why they marched on the geth. It was soley because they needed their world back, and had nothing to prove, or even suggest the geth would ever willingly return it. Tali even tells you on the Alerai (talk at the console, pick "That's a bad idea" then "Then take it back." to hear her admit this). that the quarians feel remorseful for what they did to the geth in the Morning War, and they regret how they panicked and tried to kill them. In fact, she seems to suggest that most quarians hate themselves for how their people paniced and put their own survival over the geth's, to save face with the Council because of their fear of them. Hell, she even admits that remorse over that was why the quarians haven't tried to take Rannoch back these past 300 years. The quarians don't hate the geth, conrtary to your statements. They simply saw no other option to get Rannoch back for their civilians to survive the Reaper War, especally since Legion's subsiquent dissiperance made it clear the geth had no interist in talking anyway.

Satisfied?

And again, I told you, the geth and quarians have the same trait: Lack of mutual trust, or proof that the other can be bartered for peace with.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 avril 2013 - 08:38 .

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

No, it's ideal because of that fact, it's easier to construct satelites around a less active star, also there arn't a lot of inner starsystem planetary bodies that will cause gravitational shifts as they pass near the satelites.

The closest planet to their sun is Rannoch.

They also got an asteroidfield rightoutside Rannoch that provides cheap construction materials for their superproject and it's easier to build if you got materials in system than if you have to import everything, it's been mentioned before in the ME series.

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong about their construction plans, noone in game seemed the least bit concerned about it.
The starsystem is ideal with an relatively manageble sun and plenty of construction materials in system.
It's also the system wich originaly held the largest amount of Geth habitants.
Makes perfect sense.

It's a much better system than Sol for such a project. I would pick it over Sol any day.[/quote]
And yet there were already enough clusters to distinguish it as a Dyson Sphere. It's smaller then avarage stars, meaning that any lost sunlight is even more detrimental to the environment of the planets in the system because the output isn't as high.

And that STILL doesn;t explain the massive geth presance on the supposedly forbiddon-to-walk-on Rannoch. Jamming towers, bases, servers, defensive foundries. Likely manufacturing plants. The geth aren't making it look like Rannoch is untouched, compared to Legion telling you that none of the quarian world are occupied.

There are STILL other systems, like the Ma-at system, near Dohlen (Haestrom's system) that had another small star. There were other systems the geth could have used. The ONLY thing I can see that's different about Tikkun is that it's where the Perseus Veil's Mass Relay is loacted. Nothing a fleet couldn't keep safe, and not a reason to make Rannoch the core of geth territory,

[/quote]

No veil or dyson juice swiping in a system with a mass relay.. sorry

I'm thinking someone is trying to justify dosing the Geth out of their system(that's really just a side mission,as Quarians are really just ho hum, in the scheme of things, the council figures?) to justify later destroying all tech oriented life forms. The only reason for making Tikkun interesting or Rannoch Geth territory. The writers miffed it when they hid something and then gave it rapid transit..lol

Our esteemed silver reads too much into stuff,expects everyone to do so, hence the text walling and agree or die ethos. Made folks start cracking jokes' n stuff.  In the MEU, the geth are actually harmless. The Alliance could easily wipe them out any time they actually made the effort. Hackett probably figures they'll come in handy some day, machines make good tools, if handled properly. lol Take Shepard for example... Does like he/she's told.

[/quote]
Oh PLEASE. Give me ONE REASON why the geth spicifically needed Tikkun as the site of a dyson sphere. The geth don't even need habitable worlds, so why the hell did they base themselves in a system where there was one? You are doing the exact opposite and taking EVERYTHING at face-value. That can be no better then readoing "too much" into it.

Also, LOL, what? Did you miss the part about the geth having almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians? Each of which is a third of the size bigger then Alliance dreadnoughts? At least 50,000 ships, that unlike the quarians ships, are ALL warships. The Alliance only THINKS they could wipe out the geth, because they think that the fleet that attacked the Citadel was the geth's entire fleet. They DON'T KNOW that the gett fleet outstrips them by 4 - 1.
Honestly, if you read the Codex, you would know that everyone assumes the Heretic fleet was the geth's entire fleet, when in truth it's only 7% of it. If they knew the truth, they would not be so gung-ho.
So no, a classic example of you not reading the lore.
[/quote]

They wished to be close to their creators. It's stated many times by Legion, that they didn't understand, but accepted the hostility. They KNEW why, but didn't know how to disagree with it, the Quarian hostility. Being synthetic and created thusly, confuses the consensus, the inner workings of organics. That's why Legion was created from the consensus, as a Geth arbiter/envoy to organic space. Did Legion ever 'take out' any of Shepard's flock? No.

The whole idea of any great debate about "NO peace"  between the Geth and Quarian relies totally on reading too much into it. I didn't miss any part of Geth resources. That's why I chose to barter peace between them, I liked Legions' take on things, considering it to be a machine, made the ideals it questioned, interesting and informative about the gross misunderstanding of their position in the MEU. Taking the Quarians at face value is all that can be done, Tali explains a lot in that regard, as well as the trip down memory lane with Legion during a mission. It provides recordings of their association and the basis for strife between them. All they had to do was put their guns down for moment and "think". Pretty cut and dried really. Shepard's mission was to gain 'resources' for the up coming assault, so the "idea" is to follow orders, I'd suspect?

The term 'gung-ho' and these discussions are kind of connected, I would say. Or ironic, iconically.

note: being abrasive in argument isn't argument. Pointing out errors in intel is OK, but creating intel to follow the argument isn't.. just say'n

[RandomDrippings]

silverexile17s wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

remydat wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

You don't understand machines are not suppose to shoot back when shot at by Quarians.  It's in the Quarians Anonymous Support Group Rulebook.  Rule number 7 to be precise.

When Gherel refuses to stand down and the whole fleet of 17 million Quarians shoot at the Geth, it is just pure evil on our part to not blame the Geth for the Quarian's decision to fire.  Not ony are those a** at fault for the Quarian's firing, they have the f**king audacity to fire back.  We are clearly psychopathic, amoral, cruel and have sentenced 17 million people to die when only a few of them ie all 17 million decided to comply with Gherel's order to fire.  You see even though all 17 million of them complied and fired at the Geth, deep down in their heart of hearts, they don't want to be there and so the Geth who obviously are equipped with Quarian deep down in their heart of hearts monitors know that they don't want to be there and so should ignore the fact that this small group of 17 million Quarians are firing at them and allow themselves to be killed.

All of this was explained at the last General Meeting so please don't try and be logical here.  If you repent now you can still be saved and you get a free Quarian bobblehead when you celebrate your conversion by destroying a machine of your choosing just for sh*ts and giggles.

Haha i cant believe i missed that part, was that in the silver exlusive version of the codex?

BOTH WRONG.
From the top, YES they DID butcher needlessly in the Morning War. After all, 2 billion died. You expect me to believe that they ALL were fighting? Sorry, but I don't subscribe to headcannon. The geth retaliated with CHEMICAL WEAPONS. (The quarians worlds are being managed by the geth for toxin damage. Only chem weapons could leave toxins that would persist for 300 years. And the quarians using such weapons is nonsensical, since the geth would be immune to such weapons, having been built as labor spicifically MEANT to handle dangerous materials that would harm quarians. Therefore, the logical result is that the geth used these weapons.)
Also, FYI, it was either shoot the geth, or have the Council come down on them and kill the geth themselves, and then punish the quarians for creating them in the first place (the Council would have come in because they, like the quarians, would have assumed the geth were inacapble of fighting back).

Also, Shepard was in the Tower, which was RIGHT UNDERNEATH SOVERGIEN. THAT is the EPITIMY of shooting at Shepard to take down the bigger enemy.
The quarians shot at the dreadnought because the alternitive was to either let the dreadnought come back online and kill them, let it come online later and hunt them down, or let it come online and lead the now-Reaper controled geth against the rest of the galaxy. So YES, SAME EXACT PREMISE of sacrificing the few to save the many.

Besides, with Shepard's track record, it would only have been surprising to Gerrel if Shepard DIDN'T make it. After all, Shep and Tali got through the Alerei.

And @remydat, with snide remarks like that, you actually wonder why I called you a ****** way back when, and nobody defended you?
First off, it's NOT all 17 million people. The majority of quarians are simply riding along. They aren't even supposed to be in the fight. They are the transports that were supposed to hang back while the tanks (Gerrel's fleet) and the trucks (Raan's fleet) cleared the way back home. Being armed was a precaution - the civilians were never ment to be in the fight. Also, AGAIN, NO REASON TO TRUST THE GETH. Also, on an interesting note about the Codex, it lists the QUARIANS STOPPING FIRST, and that the geth stood down AFTER the quarians did. NOT the other way around.

Also, the geth are the one's that can somehow manuver hundreds of fighters to intercept incomming fire with perfect accuricy, yet CAN'T disarm and disable the giant liveships? BULL. They CHOSE to kill all quarians. NOT forced to kill them, CHOSE.

Get your damn facts fight and actually LOOK at this stuff sometime, will you?

Thats actually exactly what i expect you to believe. Why? becuase they did when they went to fight the geth a second time. Dragging people into war that didnt want to be a part of the fighting. Just like in legions memories where they tried to kill the geth even though not everyone wanted to. They dragged the civilians in to war with the geth again even though they wanted nothing to do with the fighting. gerral dragged raan into shooting at the dreadnought even though she did not want to. The quarians cant do anything alone. its all or nothing with them, its just part of their culture. i think it was you who said that but im not sure. And why shouldnt the geth use chemical weapons? they were in the twilight of their sentience, i.e. were not as intelligent as they are now. And you expect me to believe that as the geth started fighting back more and more quarians didnt jump into the fray? And the council would have punished them for creating AI right? well maybe they shouldnt have created an AI. which is a crime.
And how is shooting at something above shepard the Epitome of shooting at shepard? the epitome would be someone grabbing a gun and shooting directly at while hes eating dinner or something. How about lets put you on a warship, and let 50,000 planes fly by and drop bombs on it, and give someone else scuba gear with a ton of oxygen and put them 100 feet below the warship. you tell me who stands the better chance of survival and see if you still feel its the same. And what kind of choices are those? Let it come online and just kill you? or let it come online and play cat and mouse with you? How about a tactical retreat? fall back, regroup, get a plan together that does not involve you getting caught off guard by a dreadnought (again), and come back with the normandy instead of your glass cannon civilians. And yes i can see that gerral really took shepards track record into account. "Hey i know we know the geth better than anyone so we know they dont use escape pods, but hey lets start shooting at the geth ship with shepard aboard because he is commander shepard. he'll make it no problem."  Is that how you think gerral was thinking?
And it is ALL 17 million quarians. The quarians have 50,000 ships. you mean to tell me that they couldnt find some ships to house the "non combatants" while the rest went to war? No because arming the civilians was a critical part of their plan. The civilians Agreed to go because their leader agreed to go. They didnt even consider becoming non combatants until they lost their leader. And if the civilians were never meant to be in the fight, why would all they turn their civ ships into dreadnoughts? if they were only meant to be transports, as you claim, then why would they need that sort of firepower? They were obviously meant to be in the fighting, you have to admit that that.
And when you say the geth chose to kill the quarians im a little confused. I just played that scene last night (chose the Geth of course) and as you say, reaper code upgraded geth did block attacks with fighters. But also the quarian command also told everyone to not stop firing. How many ships do the geth have to lose before you give the ok to kill your attackers? The quarians would not stop. With tali and/or koris dead they are not open to peace. This is proved in all playthroughs. The geth have no reason to believe peace with the quarians is possible. They allowed the quarians to escape 300 years ago. As a result, The quarians came back, destroyed their megastructure along with millions of geth programs, lowered their intelligence to point where its acceptable to join the reapers, and tried to take rannoch from them. What do you think would happen if they let the quarians go again?

By the way, even though your posts come out a bit hostile i am rather enjoying these debates ha