4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

RandomDrippings wrote...

Haha i cant believe i missed that part, was that in the silver exlusive version of the codex?

Yeah it was there as well but you can only access it with a promo code and currently the Quarians Anonymous Support Group are the only people Bioware gave the promo code too.

S.A.K wrote...

Uh huh? They can even hack Reapers under reaper control for a few seconds. Legion get one shotted by both in side with Quarians. Geth going into "fit of rage" is news to me. That thing didn't seem to "multi-task" very well when it got back stabbed and shot 3 times in the head.
Few ways to kill a Geth:
1. Shoot it.
2. Back stab it.
3. Hack it and make it jump off cliff.
4. Hack another and make it shoot first Geth.
5. Hack and make it shoot itself.
6. Energy drain it.
7. Distract with drone and shoot it.
8. "Friendly fire"
All of the above = fun times.

Obvious plot hole is obvious.

Lol, I was merely joking but I will play along here.
 
1.  The point was unless fully distracted Legion can electric slide (ie dodge) out of the way and kill them.  He will not just stand there and be shot.
2.  I already said they can back stab it.  That is my point, they are only good at killing the Geth when they have an advantage not in a straight up fight.
3-5 - All of these are similar to 2 above.  They can only win when they can disable it somehow not in a straight up fight.  
6. That does not kill a Geth immediately and once again, you are relying on being able to disable it somehow.
7.  Legion is not an idiot.  Why would he worry about a drone when he knows the fleshy organic is easier to kill?  He has more programs and is not like a normal Geth who is no smarter than a Varren according to Shep.
8.  Not sure the point of this one.

So conclusion.  Tali and Raan only kill him when he is angered by Shep and is choking him out and thus completely distracted.  He is angry because he has RC which makes him more of an individual with the downside being he can be more emotional which he gets emotional because he thinks Shep has betrayed him.  When he is clamly uploading code (ie not anger), they don't do sh*t because that super smart RC enhanced Geth would electric slide (ie dodge) and murk them.

[remydat]

Sliver,

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you Silver but if 10,000 people are on a ship and the ship is firing, those 10,000 people are effectively firing.  The person being shot at can't magicallly kill just the dude firing and has to shoot down the ship that has 10,000 people on it and is currently firing at it.  No soldier says to himself, well I wonder if the pilot flying this ship really wants to kill me or is it just the dude controlling the guns.  Maybe the engineer really wants to be my friend.

And I am not talking about any other conflict.  I am talking about the war in ME3.  The codex proves nothing.  The game clearly shows us Gherel saying the Geth are completely vulnerable and the Quarian ships firing on a completely vulnerable enemy.  In no peace options the Geth kill the Quarians because they continued to shoot at them.  The reasons they are doing so are irrelevant to the person currently being shot it.

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

Sliver,

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you Silver but if 10,000 people are on a ship and the ship is firing, those 10,000 people are effectively firing.  The person being shot at can't magicallly kill just the dude firing and has to shoot down the ship that has 10,000 people on it and is currently firing at it.  No soldier says to himself, well I wonder if the pilot flying this ship really wants to kill me or is it just the dude controlling the guns.  Maybe the engineer really wants to be my friend.

And I am not talking about any other conflict.  I am talking about the war in ME3.  The codex proves nothing.  The game clearly shows us Gherel saying the Geth are completely vulnerable and the Quarian ships firing on a completely vulnerable enemy.  In no peace options the Geth kill the Quarians because they continued to shoot at them.  The reasons they are doing so are irrelevant to the person currently being shot it.

. The people shooting have no other alternative.  They do not know that some (only Legion) geth desire peace, they have never experienced mercy at the hands of the geth, and they have no reason to believe that the geth will cease fire if they do.  They don't learn otherwise unless Shepard specifically tells them so.

[pprrff]

Steelcan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Sliver,

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you Silver but if 10,000 people are on a ship and the ship is firing, those 10,000 people are effectively firing.  The person being shot at can't magicallly kill just the dude firing and has to shoot down the ship that has 10,000 people on it and is currently firing at it.  No soldier says to himself, well I wonder if the pilot flying this ship really wants to kill me or is it just the dude controlling the guns.  Maybe the engineer really wants to be my friend.

And I am not talking about any other conflict.  I am talking about the war in ME3.  The codex proves nothing.  The game clearly shows us Gherel saying the Geth are completely vulnerable and the Quarian ships firing on a completely vulnerable enemy.  In no peace options the Geth kill the Quarians because they continued to shoot at them.  The reasons they are doing so are irrelevant to the person currently being shot it.

. The people shooting have no other alternative.  They do not know that some (only Legion) geth desire peace, they have never experienced mercy at the hands of the geth, and they have no reason to believe that the geth will cease fire if they do.  They don't learn otherwise unless Shepard specifically tells them so.

They could get to the relay while the geth are vulnerable and run away, like what they should have done from the very beginning. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

I did adress those points. This is the first time you haven't adressed what I said.

I already told you that point one was WRONG because you thought the Admirals shoud gamble 17 million lives on a single rouge geth just because one quarians says so. That's about as effective as Shepard vouching for the Reapers being real, which WASN'T.

I told you that number two was WRONG, because you tried to argue that killing every bystander in your line of sight in responce to one gunman is sound moral thinking. "hey, it worked for Saren, right?" You DO know that Saren isn't a good moral compass, and not someone you want to emulate, right?

Number three was WRONG because you made the assertation that the entire war was fuled by one-sided quarian hate for the geth, when hate had nothing to do with why they marched on the geth. It was soley because they needed their world back, and had nothing to prove, or even suggest the geth would ever willingly return it. Tali even tells you on the Alerai (talk at the console, pick "That's a bad idea" then "Then take it back." to hear her admit this). that the quarians feel remorseful for what they did to the geth in the Morning War, and they regret how they panicked and tried to kill them. In fact, she seems to suggest that most quarians hate themselves for how their people paniced and put their own survival over the geth's, to save face with the Council because of their fear of them. Hell, she even admits that remorse over that was why the quarians haven't tried to take Rannoch back these past 300 years. The quarians don't hate the geth, conrtary to your statements. They simply saw no other option to get Rannoch back for their civilians to survive the Reaper War, especally since Legion's subsiquent dissiperance made it clear the geth had no interist in talking anyway.

Satisfied?

And again, I told you, the geth and quarians have the same trait: Lack of mutual trust, or proof that the other can be bartered for peace with.

The Admirals are not gambling 17 million lives.  They are talking.  Talking does not kill 17 million people.  Legion disappears, sending a single ship into the PV doesn't risk 17 million lives.  So you are confused.

They are not killing bystanders Silver.  They are shooting down ships firing at them.  It doesn't matter how many people in those ships don't want to be there.  The Ship is shooting at them and to stop the ship from shooting, they shot it down.  Under our rules of war, the Quarians are at fault because they have either turned their civilians into enemy combatants or they have turned them into human shields.  Until you can find me documented proof this is not the case then there is nothing more to discuss.  The rules of war don't change because you like the Quarians and want to defend them.

Pretty sure some of those 17 million Quarians hate the Geth.  There are multiple reasons they went to war and mutliple reasons why the Quarians supported it.

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

The people shooting have no other alternative.  They do not know that some (only Legion) geth desire peace, they have never experienced mercy at the hands of the geth, and they have no reason to believe that the geth will cease fire if they do.  They don't learn otherwise unless Shepard specifically tells them so.

They have Tali telling them to stand down.  It is completely ridiculous to pretend that they somehow believe Tali who just saved them now suddenly wants to condemn them to a fiery death in the sky.  What would be the point of her going on a mission to save them only to give an order that kills them?

So they have an alternative.  That alternative is to ask Tali WTF is going on?  She could then explain it to them.  So you can't just blame Tali here.  If we ignore the fact this is likely just game mechanics, Tali is stupid for not telling them about the RC but they are just as stupid for not asking her why she gave that order.

Furthermore, none of this is the Geth's problem.  If someone is trying to kill me then I fire back and try and kill them.  No one in the midst of being shot at is going to sit there and wonder if the person shooting at them really doesn't want to be there.

Modifié par remydat, 12 avril 2013 - 04:01 .

[remydat]

Also for all those people who think there were no other alternatives to war, I just want to know the following.

1. Is your lack of trust in the Geth stronger than you desire to not send kids to war?

2. Related to one above, why wouldn't you send ships with ADULTS to the PV to figure out why the Geth disengaged before sending Kids to war? Is one or 2 scouting ships being shot down not worth the risk of not sending kids to war if someway somehow the Geth are now worried about the Reaper Threat enough to be willing to come back to the table?

3. How many planets are there that can support Dextro based life and how many are currently under attack from the Reapers?

4. Related to 3 above, why couldn't the Quarians like the Krogan say they will support the war when the a**holes at the council give them what they want? I find it hard to believe that with Palaven burning the Turians would not have conceded a dextro based planet not currently under attack to the Quarians so they can base their fleet there when they agreed to allow the Genophage to be cured. I can't believe that it was better to send their kids to war before even approaching the Turians with this offer. I would really like to hear reasons why this alternative could not have possibly been discussed with the Turians in a similar fashion as the cure was discussed with them as their planet is burning.

5.  Related to 4 above, please don't respond with the bullsh*t that it would take them 100 years to acclimate to this planet as oppose to the 60 years for Rannoch as if that should even be a consideration admist a Reaper War that may not last that long.

Modifié par remydat, 12 avril 2013 - 03:59 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

silverexile17s wrote...

 They chose this because the alternitive was assured death against the Reapers. They were never supposed to be in the front-line fight.
 

Yeah right. If the Quarians truly felt that it was War with the Geth, or War with Harbinger, then CLEARLY they should have alerted the Geth to help them try and stop the Reapers, for Harby would kill Legion just as fast as Tali.

If you played Dragon Age, or are a Christian IRL, you know that the Reapers, are like Demons: Everything they say is a lie.

Alliance with the Geth? A means to an end. Geth fight the Qs while the Reapers easily harvest other organics. Then with dwindled numbers, wipe up the Geth/Quarian survivors. (Great plan I might add.)

Same with TIM, give him power to use against Shepard. So you fight with TIM instead of the Reapers.

MY point is. Only Gerrel would believe that even in a Full Scale Reaper Invasion, it would still be a good idea to declare war on the Geth. 17 Million Quarians couldn't override the decision of 1-2 Admirals? Not Likely.

America, 320 Million Citizens, being controlled by 540 corrupt, lying, deceiving, manipulative, rich, condescending, lazy old people. Yet we sit and do nothing.

Modifié par Da Don Giovanni, 12 avril 2013 - 05:20 .

[S.A.K]

Remydat, those 8 points were ment as a joke. Didn't think you'll analyze them. Only serious thing about my last 2 post were pointing out some bad writing. So I won't continue that.

I just read the codex entry about Rannoch war. Seems like siding with either side won't actually make the other one go extrinct.
It says Geth were hunted down by the Quarians, but some ships might be in other systems or they may have more space space stations like the Heretic station. Geth who are left might be hella stupid because the network would be much smaller, but they might recover.
Codex also says some Quarian ships escaped and Quarians did libarate 4 other systems before Tikkun. So there might be few thousand Quarians left out there. Not sure if it's enough though.
Anyway both species might survive anyway. That's if Shepard don't pick destroy ending.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Remydat, those 8 points were ment as a joke. Didn't think you'll analyze them. Only serious thing about my last 2 post were pointing out some bad writing. So I won't continue that.

I just read the codex entry about Rannoch war. Seems like siding with either side won't actually make the other one go extrinct.
It says Geth were hunted down by the Quarians, but some ships might be in other systems or they may have more space space stations like the Heretic station. Geth who are left might be hella stupid because the network would be much smaller, but they might recover.
Codex also says some Quarian ships escaped and Quarians did libarate 4 other systems before Tikkun. So there might be few thousand Quarians left out there. Not sure if it's enough though.
Anyway both species might survive anyway. That's if Shepard don't pick destroy ending.

Yeah that is why I said I would play along.  Yeah I was aware of it.  I think Wayn Star had mentioned it at some point in this thread.  Not the codex exactly but I think he was speculating that somewhere beyond even the Terminus System the Geth could have a station of some sort.

[justafan]

To the point of Quarians surviving despite siding with the Geth, a little under a year ago, there was one of the ANN posts about Quarian pilgrims missing the fleet and ending up training the Vorcha we see in multiplayer.

As for the Geth, like you said, Heretic Station can't be a one-off thing.

[Argolas]

The Quarians are 17 million BEFORE the war. That is less than twice the population of New York city. If you side with the Geth, the few Quarians who escape can't be enough to ensure their survival.

[S.A.K]

Argolas wrote...

The Quarians are 17 million BEFORE the war. That is less than twice the population of New York city. If you side with the Geth, the few Quarians who escape can't be enough to ensure their survival.

Considering Quarians are comparable humans statistically, it would require about 120 Quarians to maintain a viable population. Quarians have 50,000 star ships. That's about 340 Quarians per ship. So even if 2 or 3 mid sized ship survive, that would be more than enough. Not saying it's guaranteed though. I won't be siding with Geth anyway.

Edit : I brought this up to say that both species might be included in the next ME game if it is a sequal. But in that case they might have to use destroy as canon ending because it is by far the most popular. Geth future is problematic.

Modifié par S.A.K, 12 avril 2013 - 07:50 .

[justafan]

Argolas wrote...

The Quarians are 17 million BEFORE the war. That is less than twice the population of New York city. If you side with the Geth, the few Quarians who escape can't be enough to ensure their survival.

Really, because I think that the population of NYC is more than enough to ensure a stable and genetically diverse population.  Even if only a few tens of thousands survived, that is still the size of a small town.  All they need is steady access to food, water  and shelter.  They might not be self-sufficient anymore, having to rely, or maybe serve, another species like the Drell do the Hanar.  However, they would most certainly be capable of surviving

[Auld Wulf]

@S.A.K.

Look at Skyrim Nexus and some of the most popular mods. Aside from all the lewd mods that would never make it into the mainstream, there are many ultra-popular mods that just ruin what the game is about. If "popular" was something that developers listened to, then Bethesda would be trying to emulate their modding community, which they aren't.

In fact, Bethesda's attitude is that they make the games they make -- and if you want to add something or change something, you can do it yourself. This results in critically acclaimed games which are popular enough anyway. Consider the popularity of the Skyrim mod that changed all of the dragons into my little ponies. Is that something you'd want? It's not something I'd want. But it was incredibly popular.

They're going to look at what's best for the game, what's best for the story, and what they can do to make that popular enough to be saleable. Making something incredibly popular is just going to result in a schlock game, because that's the only thing the masses seem to like -- schlock. And as creative people they have some artistic standards they need to stick with, otherwise the next Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls would end up being fantasy/sci-fi versions of Saints Row the Third.

They'll go with what they want and leave it in the hands of marketing to make it popular. Then it'll sell millions, it'll rake in the profits. As long as it's popular enough, people will buy it and keep buying. But popularity isn't their greatest concern. Thinking they'd go with Destroy is kind of like thinking that Bethesda will put MLP in their next Elder Scrolls game due to the popularity of a mod. In fact, I can likely see them being contrarian and going with Control.

[AlexMBrennan]

Fun fact I found on Wikipedia which is always absolutely reliable:

When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of [minimum viable population] for many species are in the thousands. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al. reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Once again a plot fail. Tali could have used Sabotage on Legion. She could have done that while she was pleading with Shepard. That would have given her a "shot", pardon the pun. The idea was to lay the entire thing on Shepard for the player to make the decision. It was strictly a plot device having nothing to do with logic.

Geth are not exactly high in health. Shields are high. The Quarians are similar in this manner. But in cut scenes kinetic barriers do not function and as such we do not have to worry. This is a known fact that has been prevalent since ME1. Nihlus. Sabotage + Shotgun for the win. Legion bleeds synthoil all over the place.

This thing could have been done with Shepard having to use renegade interrupts to stop her. Basically it would result in Peace (Geth w/code, Geth w/o code) or Quarians.

[silverexile17s]

RandomDrippings wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

remydat wrote...

RandomDrippings wrote...

Silver, did you say needlessly butchered people in the morning war? The quarians attacked them and they defended themselves. The quarians were not open to peace with the geth. If they were then they would not have fired the first shot. And I never said that Shepard was in no danger while the battle with sovereign raged on. But Hackett never once shot at Shepard. He shot at a reaper above Shepard to stop the reapers from committing genocide and destroying the heart of gal acting civilization. The quarians shot at a geth dreadnought while Shepard, 2 of his squad mates, and one of their own admirals were on board so they could commit genocide. Still sound the same?

You don't understand machines are not suppose to shoot back when shot at by Quarians.  It's in the Quarians Anonymous Support Group Rulebook.  Rule number 7 to be precise.

When Gherel refuses to stand down and the whole fleet of 17 million Quarians shoot at the Geth, it is just pure evil on our part to not blame the Geth for the Quarian's decision to fire.  Not ony are those a** at fault for the Quarian's firing, they have the f**king audacity to fire back.  We are clearly psychopathic, amoral, cruel and have sentenced 17 million people to die when only a few of them ie all 17 million decided to comply with Gherel's order to fire.  You see even though all 17 million of them complied and fired at the Geth, deep down in their heart of hearts, they don't want to be there and so the Geth who obviously are equipped with Quarian deep down in their heart of hearts monitors know that they don't want to be there and so should ignore the fact that this small group of 17 million Quarians are firing at them and allow themselves to be killed.

All of this was explained at the last General Meeting so please don't try and be logical here.  If you repent now you can still be saved and you get a free Quarian bobblehead when you celebrate your conversion by destroying a machine of your choosing just for sh*ts and giggles.

Haha i cant believe i missed that part, was that in the silver exlusive version of the codex?

BOTH WRONG.
From the top, YES they DID butcher needlessly in the Morning War. After all, 2 billion died. You expect me to believe that they ALL were fighting? Sorry, but I don't subscribe to headcannon. The geth retaliated with CHEMICAL WEAPONS. (The quarians worlds are being managed by the geth for toxin damage. Only chem weapons could leave toxins that would persist for 300 years. And the quarians using such weapons is nonsensical, since the geth would be immune to such weapons, having been built as labor spicifically MEANT to handle dangerous materials that would harm quarians. Therefore, the logical result is that the geth used these weapons.)
Also, FYI, it was either shoot the geth, or have the Council come down on them and kill the geth themselves, and then punish the quarians for creating them in the first place (the Council would have come in because they, like the quarians, would have assumed the geth were inacapble of fighting back).

Also, Shepard was in the Tower, which was RIGHT UNDERNEATH SOVERGIEN. THAT is the EPITIMY of shooting at Shepard to take down the bigger enemy.
The quarians shot at the dreadnought because the alternitive was to either let the dreadnought come back online and kill them, let it come online later and hunt them down, or let it come online and lead the now-Reaper controled geth against the rest of the galaxy. So YES, SAME EXACT PREMISE of sacrificing the few to save the many.

Besides, with Shepard's track record, it would only have been surprising to Gerrel if Shepard DIDN'T make it. After all, Shep and Tali got through the Alerei.

And @remydat, with snide remarks like that, you actually wonder why I called you a ****** way back when, and nobody defended you?
First off, it's NOT all 17 million people. The majority of quarians are simply riding along. They aren't even supposed to be in the fight. They are the transports that were supposed to hang back while the tanks (Gerrel's fleet) and the trucks (Raan's fleet) cleared the way back home. Being armed was a precaution - the civilians were never ment to be in the fight. Also, AGAIN, NO REASON TO TRUST THE GETH. Also, on an interesting note about the Codex, it lists the QUARIANS STOPPING FIRST, and that the geth stood down AFTER the quarians did. NOT the other way around.

Also, the geth are the one's that can somehow manuver hundreds of fighters to intercept incomming fire with perfect accuricy, yet CAN'T disarm and disable the giant liveships? BULL. They CHOSE to kill all quarians. NOT forced to kill them, CHOSE.

Get your damn facts fight and actually LOOK at this stuff sometime, will you?

Thats actually exactly what i expect you to believe. Why? becuase they did when they went to fight the geth a second time. Dragging people into war that didnt want to be a part of the fighting. Just like in legions memories where they tried to kill the geth even though not everyone wanted to. They dragged the civilians in to war with the geth again even though they wanted nothing to do with the fighting. gerral dragged raan into shooting at the dreadnought even though she did not want to. The quarians cant do anything alone. its all or nothing with them, its just part of their culture. i think it was you who said that but im not sure. And why shouldnt the geth use chemical weapons? they were in the twilight of their sentience, i.e. were not as intelligent as they are now. And you expect me to believe that as the geth started fighting back more and more quarians didnt jump into the fray? And the council would have punished them for creating AI right? well maybe they shouldnt have created an AI. which is a crime.
And how is shooting at something above shepard the Epitome of shooting at shepard? the epitome would be someone grabbing a gun and shooting directly at while hes eating dinner or something. How about lets put you on a warship, and let 50,000 planes fly by and drop bombs on it, and give someone else scuba gear with a ton of oxygen and put them 100 feet below the warship. you tell me who stands the better chance of survival and see if you still feel its the same. And what kind of choices are those? Let it come online and just kill you? or let it come online and play cat and mouse with you? How about a tactical retreat? fall back, regroup, get a plan together that does not involve you getting caught off guard by a dreadnought (again), and come back with the normandy instead of your glass cannon civilians. And yes i can see that gerral really took shepards track record into account. "Hey i know we know the geth better than anyone so we know they dont use escape pods, but hey lets start shooting at the geth ship with shepard aboard because he is commander shepard. he'll make it no problem."  Is that how you think gerral was thinking?
And it is ALL 17 million quarians. The quarians have 50,000 ships. you mean to tell me that they couldnt find some ships to house the "non combatants" while the rest went to war? No because arming the civilians was a critical part of their plan. The civilians Agreed to go because their leader agreed to go. They didnt even consider becoming non combatants until they lost their leader. And if the civilians were never meant to be in the fight, why would all they turn their civ ships into dreadnoughts? if they were only meant to be transports, as you claim, then why would they need that sort of firepower? They were obviously meant to be in the fighting, you have to admit that that.
And when you say the geth chose to kill the quarians im a little confused. I just played that scene last night (chose the Geth of course) and as you say, reaper code upgraded geth did block attacks with fighters. But also the quarian command also told everyone to not stop firing. How many ships do the geth have to lose before you give the ok to kill your attackers? The quarians would not stop. With tali and/or koris dead they are not open to peace. This is proved in all playthroughs. The geth have no reason to believe peace with the quarians is possible. They allowed the quarians to escape 300 years ago. As a result, The quarians came back, destroyed their megastructure along with millions of geth programs, lowered their intelligence to point where its acceptable to join the reapers, and tried to take rannoch from them. What do you think would happen if they let the quarians go again?

By the way, even though your posts come out a bit hostile i am rather enjoying these debates ha

AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. It is both physically and proportionatly impossible that every single one of the 2 billilon quarians, (men, woman, children, sick, elderly) were actively fighting. Especally since the kill rate of the quarians were 99% Even unarmed people, like the miners of Adas, were brutally slaughtered, even though they posed NO threat to the geth. Not even aliens, like Erynia's asari spouse was spared (Erynia spicifically says her bondmate, and asari, was butchered by the geth. Her bondmate was studing quarian music when she was killed). Also, the Morning War took a full year. Rannoch was the last world to fall. In other words, the geth launched their own invasion of Raanoch and drove the quarians out. At some point, the GETH became the agressors in the war. THEY launched retalitiry strikes with zero concern for civilian casualties. Din't try BSing me about every quarian being armed and fighting. They weren't a Hierarchy like the turians. If anything, only 4% of the quarians race were likely military. (aprox 68 million quarians out of 2.1 billion or so)

Also, those recordings were BEFORE the Morning War. BEFORE. They do NOT represent the events carried out during the actual fighting. ALSO, you are seriously going to judge two entire races based on 2 - 3 videos? From a Reaper-infested server? That's like meeting Kelly Chambers and using her views on aliens as a template of how everyone in Cerberus must be like. Biased and unreliable as an accurate sample to judge one race on, let alone two.
ALSO, in case you didn't notice, Magara's death was caused by a door breach, meaning his death my have been completely accenditental.

Also, WRONG about the quarians being forced. The Admirals cannot force the fleet anywhere unless all five agree to it. Shorthand: Gerrel, Raan, and Xen can't force the fleet into a war unless Tali and Koris agree to it. Otherwise, the Conclave senete must put the matter to vote against the Migrant Fleet. So, contrary to your statement, the majotiy of quarians agreed to this. They may not have wanted to fight, but they STILL chose to fight, because they believed the only alternitive was to die in space.

Also, the chem weapons are proof that the geth didn't give a flying flip to civilian death. Contrary to what everyone keeps trying to headcannon, the geth were not the abused defenders. They were equally the agressors in the Morning War.
Also, AGAIN, you show lack of knowledge of the lore, as anyone that did know lore would know The quarians DIDN'T INTEND TO CREATE AN A.I. The entire REASON they panicked was ENTIRELY BECAUSE the geth were NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A.I.s. The geth became A.I.s on their OWN. Creating A.I.s was the LAST THING the quarians wanted to do. And Yes, it IS a crime - a crime they ACCEDENTALLY caused. It was NOT intentonal, and hence caused them to panic on Council repremands for it.

Aug, AGAIN, The Citadel Tower is right underneath Sovergien. In other words, DEAD CENTERED on where Shepard is standing. You should KNOW this, because in ME1, you enter the Citadel Tower Right under it. It's like shooting a target when the friendly is standing RIGHT BEHIND IT. Sovergien's position is the same as Shepard's - the Citadel Tower. You can try and twist semantics however you want, but the fact remains - Shepard is in the same exact place Sovergien is when the Alliance starts Shooting.
And AGAIN, the entire POINT is that those choices are what Gerrel AVOIDED when he shot the dreadnought. Now that the geth are Reaper-controlled, you actually think they are going to stay in the Perseus Veil? NO. The Reapers will send them out into the rest of the galaxy. The quarians can't run from them anymore - no one can. It's either retreat, and risk being hunted down, or stand and fight. Tactical retreat is impossible with that thing just sitting there, possibly already coming back up. If the DO perform a retreat, it could come online and hammer their backsides as they try to turn and run. THEN what?
Also, FYI, the last time the fought geth, it was in the Morning War, back when the geth didn't HAVE ships of their own. The geth built their own ships after the Morning War. (It's spicifically listed in the Codex that the technology the geth have has changed and advanced in their 300 year exile, as they have developed their own weapons, and even unique platforms, like the geth "Hopper" and geth "Armature." Ships of their own and stations of original construction are in the same catagory.) So don't accuse the quarians on something they have no knowledge about. Also, I think the track record Gerrel is basing off of consists of the Alerei, and the Battle of the Ciatdel.

And YES, that's the SPICIFIC POINT of why they went to war in the FIRST PLACE - Because they DIDN'T have anywhere for their noncombatants to go.
The fleet can't be split up over vast distances, because the military ships are reliant on shuttle runs from the civilian ships to keep re-supplied. The civilian ships have all the resources (food, fuel, medicine, repair materials, ect.). Without them, the military fleets are inacapble of sustained conflict against an enemy like the geth. (the quarians are wanted in the Reaper War for logictsics: civilian evac, troop transport, supply running, Crucible construction - all things they CAN'T do while overcrowed with civilians). And likewise, because the civilian ships aee so fragile, they need constant protection by being in close proximity to the military fleet, so that no enemy can amnush them from the back. Because if a liveship is speared, half the fleet starves and dies. Also, the liveships are giant greenhouses for food. They are supply ships. And there are only three liveships in the fleet. And THEY are supposed to stay back from the fighting. Arming them was precautionary - a safety measure so that the civilians would not be completely defensless if the geth somehow breached the front lines. They were NOT ment to be actively fighting. Just equiped to if the situation forced them to defend themselves. Hackett & Udina had every civilian ship in the Alliance armed as a safety precaution too, I might add.
But the geth's Reaper code changed all that, and forced the civilian ships to fight too. The majority of civilians are NOT actively participating in the fight - they are basically on the transports, doing nothing but hunkering down in the holds, hoping everything works out.

The geth are able to manuver their fighters so perfectly, able to block the incoming fire with perfect accuricy. And yet you expect me to believe they couldn't disable those liveships? or the Civilian ships? The point is that they already showed they had the targeting capasity to disable those ships if they wanted to. They didn't. They were not forced to kill the quarians. They CHOSE to kill the quarian civilians.
And again, you fail to realize that the SAME is true for the quarians: they have no proof of their own that the geth want peace either. Not until Shepard gets on the line.
And AGAIN, wrong. Legion says that thousands of programs died. NOT millions. Thousands. Also, the scan of Rannoch shows that there are about a billion geth platforms on Rannoch, with even higher numbers of programs on the world. The geth did NOT lose the majority of their race when the megastructure was hit. Rather, they lost the central hub of their consensis, and were unable to network together in large enough groups to fight back without Reaper aid, hence why they accepted the deal.

See the points I'm making here?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 avril 2013 - 01:02 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Sliver,

I didn't think I would have to explain this to you Silver but if 10,000 people are on a ship and the ship is firing, those 10,000 people are effectively firing.  The person being shot at can't magicallly kill just the dude firing and has to shoot down the ship that has 10,000 people on it and is currently firing at it.  No soldier says to himself, well I wonder if the pilot flying this ship really wants to kill me or is it just the dude controlling the guns.  Maybe the engineer really wants to be my friend.

And I am not talking about any other conflict.  I am talking about the war in ME3.  The codex proves nothing.  The game clearly shows us Gherel saying the Geth are completely vulnerable and the Quarian ships firing on a completely vulnerable enemy.  In no peace options the Geth kill the Quarians because they continued to shoot at them.  The reasons they are doing so are irrelevant to the person currently being shot it.

DEAD WRONG.
If a ship is full of civilians, you really think those civilians have a say in how the command crew works? You think that the avarage civilian is able to go to the bridge and do something. No.
AGAIN, you fail to comprehend. The civilian ships are like jiant transports. The DRIVERS are shooting, but the people inside are just there. They are NOT combatants, because they are NOT armed, nor actively shooting from their segregated cargo holds, and they are NOT living shields, because they voulentearily agreed to come here.
You can easily kill the drver of the transport shooting you WITHOUT having to kill the civilians aborad. The geth ALREADY demonstrated they were fully capable of such advanced calculations when they blocked incoming fire with perfect accuracy. They simply chose not to. The geth willingly murdered the quarians. They slaughtered them when they had every oppertunity to let them go.
END of story.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
ALSO, even if they were, the geth are viewed as hating organics. Everyone thinks the geth are as genocidal as the Reapers, and that the geth are "monsters that have to be put down, because they will never stop." That's how EVRERYONE IN THE WIDER GALAXY sees the geth. No differend then how they saw the Rachni, or the Krogan. The moment the quarians learn different, they STOP. 
If the Reapers suddenly became vunerable, would YOU stop shooting at them? Because you are making it sound like you would have let Sovergien run at the Citadel.

And AGAIN, it's revealed in the Codex (It's cannon no matter HOW much you try to headcannon it away. Deal with it)
That the geth powered down AFTER the quarians did.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I did adress those points. This is the first time you haven't adressed what I said.

I already told you that point one was WRONG because you thought the Admirals shoud gamble 17 million lives on a single rouge geth just because one quarians says so. That's about as effective as Shepard vouching for the Reapers being real, which WASN'T.

I told you that number two was WRONG, because you tried to argue that killing every bystander in your line of sight in responce to one gunman is sound moral thinking. "hey, it worked for Saren, right?" You DO know that Saren isn't a good moral compass, and not someone you want to emulate, right?

Number three was WRONG because you made the assertation that the entire war was fuled by one-sided quarian hate for the geth, when hate had nothing to do with why they marched on the geth. It was soley because they needed their world back, and had nothing to prove, or even suggest the geth would ever willingly return it. Tali even tells you on the Alerai (talk at the console, pick "That's a bad idea" then "Then take it back." to hear her admit this). that the quarians feel remorseful for what they did to the geth in the Morning War, and they regret how they panicked and tried to kill them. In fact, she seems to suggest that most quarians hate themselves for how their people paniced and put their own survival over the geth's, to save face with the Council because of their fear of them. Hell, she even admits that remorse over that was why the quarians haven't tried to take Rannoch back these past 300 years. The quarians don't hate the geth, conrtary to your statements. They simply saw no other option to get Rannoch back for their civilians to survive the Reaper War, especally since Legion's subsiquent dissiperance made it clear the geth had no interist in talking anyway.

Satisfied?

And again, I told you, the geth and quarians have the same trait: Lack of mutual trust, or proof that the other can be bartered for peace with.

The Admirals are not gambling 17 million lives.  They are talking.  Talking does not kill 17 million people.  Legion disappears, sending a single ship into the PV doesn't risk 17 million lives.  So you are confused.

They are not killing bystanders Silver.  They are shooting down ships firing at them.  It doesn't matter how many people in those ships don't want to be there.  The Ship is shooting at them and to stop the ship from shooting, they shot it down.  Under our rules of war, the Quarians are at fault because they have either turned their civilians into enemy combatants or they have turned them into human shields.  Until you can find me documented proof this is not the case then there is nothing more to discuss.  The rules of war don't change because you like the Quarians and want to defend them.

Pretty sure some of those 17 million Quarians hate the Geth.  There are multiple reasons they went to war and mutliple reasons why the Quarians supported it.

AGAIN, it's a proposition that went nowhere, because Legion had no proof that the geth wanted peace, and after being recalled, the lack of contact made it clear that the geth felt the same. The geth's track record for killing diplomatic envoys is 100%. It's hard to agrue with odds like that, remember? Sending any ships is basically an effort in futility. And devoting resoruces to a futile effort when the Reapers are comming is risking lives.

WRONG. It is not impossible to kill the driver of an armed convoy without hitting the civilians in the transport. The geth already demonstrated they had the capasity to make such calculations when they used thousands to individual fighters to block incoming enemy shots with perfect accuracy. They can do that, yet you expect me to believe it's impossible to shoot off a set of hastily-welded on guns from civilian tugs? Please don't make me laugh. "Rules of War" don't scanction mass murder. Not when other options are clearly and redily  avalible. There were other options open to the geth. They just ignored them. The geth CHOOSE to kill the quarian civilians. There is no two ways about it. The quarians were NOT combatants because they were not armed. The people shuttling them around were. And they were NOT living shields, because they willingly agreed to be transported to Rannoch. They do NOT meet either of the criteria you have presented.

And WRONG. If that were true, the Dorn's statement about the civilians not wanting a war would not exist. They didn't want a war, but chose it for the sake of having a homeworld. I already told you where you can find Tali telling you that the quarians are remorsfull for the Morning War, and that guilt has been what stopped them from retaking Rannoch prior to now.
You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the truth: the quarians did this because they believed the alternitive was death. Same as the geth.

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Quarians are 17 million BEFORE the war. That is less than twice the population of New York city. If you side with the Geth, the few Quarians who escape can't be enough to ensure their survival.

Considering Quarians are comparable humans statistically, it would require about 120 Quarians to maintain a viable population. Quarians have 50,000 star ships. That's about 340 Quarians per ship. So even if 2 or 3 mid sized ship survive, that would be more than enough. Not saying it's guaranteed though. I won't be siding with Geth anyway.

Edit : I brought this up to say that both species might be included in the next ME game if it is a sequal. But in that case they might have to use destroy as canon ending because it is by far the most popular. Geth future is problematic.

Actually, since the quarians are suited, they would not be able to mate safely without extended periods of time to acclimate to each-other's physical presance in clean rooms. And because the liveships are gone, there ARE no clean rooms to acclimate to each-other in anymore. Meaning that they are unable to mate without it being potentally fatal. None of the surviving ships would have been a liveship. And since most quarian clan-members have most of the same falimy members on the same ship with them, in-ship breeding carries a higher risk of being incest. Why do you think quarian law has the quarians pick different ships to join up with after pilgrimage? To avoid the risk of incest.
So in truth, even if a few survived, they would never be able to rebuild their race. Not without clean rooms to acclimate to. Or without Rannoch.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 avril 2013 - 01:30 .

[silverexile17s]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

 They chose this because the alternitive was assured death against the Reapers. They were never supposed to be in the front-line fight.
 

Yeah right. If the Quarians truly felt that it was War with the Geth, or War with Harbinger, then CLEARLY they should have alerted the Geth to help them try and stop the Reapers, for Harby would kill Legion just as fast as Tali.

If you played Dragon Age, or are a Christian IRL, you know that the Reapers, are like Demons: Everything they say is a lie.

Alliance with the Geth? A means to an end. Geth fight the Qs while the Reapers easily harvest other organics. Then with dwindled numbers, wipe up the Geth/Quarian survivors. (Great plan I might add.)

Same with TIM, give him power to use against Shepard. So you fight with TIM instead of the Reapers.

MY point is. Only Gerrel would believe that even in a Full Scale Reaper Invasion, it would still be a good idea to declare war on the Geth. 17 Million Quarians couldn't override the decision of 1-2 Admirals? Not Likely.

America, 320 Million Citizens, being controlled by 540 corrupt, lying, deceiving, manipulative, rich, condescending, lazy old people. Yet we sit and do nothing.

Well, when Legion was pulled back to geth space, and never returned Tali's messages, it seems that was in indication that the geth didn't plan to negotiate either. After all, if the geth did plan to negotiate, or think that peace was possible, surely they would have allowed Legion to resume contact withe Tali, correct?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

DEAD WRONG.
If a ship is full of civilians, you really think those civilians have a say in how the command crew works? You think that the avarage civilian is able to go to the bridge and do something. No.
AGAIN, you fail to comprehend. The civilian ships are like jiant transports. The DRIVERS are shooting, but the people inside are just there. They are NOT combatants, because they are NOT armed, nor actively shooting from their segregated cargo holds, and they are NOT living shields, because they voulentearily agreed to come here.
You can easily kill the drver of the transport shooting you WITHOUT having to kill the civilians aborad. The geth ALREADY demonstrated they were fully capable of such advanced calculations when they blocked incoming fire with perfect accuracy. They simply chose not to. The geth willingly murdered the quarians. They slaughtered them when they had every oppertunity to let them go.
END of story.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
ALSO, even if they were, the geth are viewed as hating organics. Everyone thinks the geth are as genocidal as the Reapers, and that the geth are "monsters that have to be put down, because they will never stop." That's how EVRERYONE IN THE WIDER GALAXY sees the geth. No differend then how they saw the Rachni, or the Krogan. The moment the quarians learn different, they STOP. 
If the Reapers suddenly became vunerable, would YOU stop shooting at them? Because you are making it sound like you would have let Sovergien run at the Citadel.

And AGAIN, it's revealed in the Codex (It's cannon no matter HOW much you try to headcannon it away. Deal with it)
That the geth powered down AFTER the quarians did.

Should the Geth go kidnap some organic children and stick them in their ships so that the Quarians can't fire on them?  What should the Quarians do if the Geth do this and the Geth are firing at the Quarians?

The bold is complete utter monumental f**king bullsh*t.  I have posted the vid like 10 different times and quoted Gherel statement like 10 different times.  Here it is once again.

Gheral:  You did it Shepard! The Geth Fleet  have stopped FIRING!.  There're COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

This is seriously f**king hilarious.  They stoping firng Silver.  Sorry the game says they did.  Not a f**king codex.  Your beloved Gherel said they stopped firing, lol.

Gherel f**king knows the people responsible for the Geth ceasing fire told him to stand down.  It is absurd for him to not interpret from Tali's statement that something is up.  She did not just save them so that she could put them in harm's way by telling them to stand down if the Geth intend to fire back.  It's absurd.

Modifié par remydat, 13 avril 2013 - 03:31 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DEAD WRONG.
If a ship is full of civilians, you really think those civilians have a say in how the command crew works? You think that the avarage civilian is able to go to the bridge and do something. No.
AGAIN, you fail to comprehend. The civilian ships are like jiant transports. The DRIVERS are shooting, but the people inside are just there. They are NOT combatants, because they are NOT armed, nor actively shooting from their segregated cargo holds, and they are NOT living shields, because they voulentearily agreed to come here.
You can easily kill the drver of the transport shooting you WITHOUT having to kill the civilians aborad. The geth ALREADY demonstrated they were fully capable of such advanced calculations when they blocked incoming fire with perfect accuracy. They simply chose not to. The geth willingly murdered the quarians. They slaughtered them when they had every oppertunity to let them go.
END of story.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
ALSO, even if they were, the geth are viewed as hating organics. Everyone thinks the geth are as genocidal as the Reapers, and that the geth are "monsters that have to be put down, because they will never stop." That's how EVRERYONE IN THE WIDER GALAXY sees the geth. No differend then how they saw the Rachni, or the Krogan. The moment the quarians learn different, they STOP. 
If the Reapers suddenly became vunerable, would YOU stop shooting at them? Because you are making it sound like you would have let Sovergien run at the Citadel.

And AGAIN, it's revealed in the Codex (It's cannon no matter HOW much you try to headcannon it away. Deal with it)
That the geth powered down AFTER the quarians did.

Should the Geth go kidnap some organic children and stick them in their ships so that the Quarians can't fire on them?  What should the Quarians do if the Geth do this and the Geth are firing at the Quarians?

The bold is complete utter monumental f**king bullsh*t.  I have posted the vid like 10 different times and quoted Gherel statement like 10 different times.  Here it is once again.

Gheral:  You did it Shepard! The Geth Fleet  have stopped FIRING!.  There're COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

This is seriously f**king hilarious.  They stoping firng Silver.  Sorry the game says they did.  Not a f**king codex.  Your beloved Gherel said they stopped firing, lol.

Gherel f**king knows the people responsible for the Geth ceasing fire told him to stand down.  It is absurd for him to not interpret from Tali's statement that something is up.  She did not just save them so that she could put them in harm's way by telling them to stand down if the Geth intend to fire back.  It's absurd.

That situation would be the same. But since geth are networked into the hardware, so that ALL of them are actively linked in fighting.... well, in truth, the examples on active combatants are applocable to the GETH, not the quarians. The geth don't have civilians. All are able and willing to fight. That's not the case with the quarians - they are nither trained, experianced, or willing to fight. The geth, ALL geth, are.
These same rules are applicable for the rachni - every one of them has a soldier bread into them, and with their hive mind, they share experances, like combat knowledge. There aren't any such things as civilian rachni. Just as there isn't such a thing as civilian geth.
Also, since the geth have proven time and again that they don't believe in taking prsioners, that scenerio of a hostage situation wouldn't exist.

And I have said that it's "complete and utter monumenrtal fu*king bulls*it" of YOURS because not once is any video showing the fight displayed until after a set choice is made. The geth may have stopped THEN, but they can resume defending themselves. Being "vunerible" does NOT mean "unable to fire." Saying they stopped then doesn't KEEP them from firing again as the quarians close the gap while Shepard is talking to Legion.

So STOP with YOUR bull already. YOUR "beloved" geth didn't stand down till AFTER the quarians did. YOUR "beloved" geth butchered people when there was ample chance to avoid it, in BOTH the Rannoch War and the Morning War. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that did noting but paint themselves as mass murders for 300 years. YOUR "beloved" geth took no responcibility for the Heretics. YOUR "beloved" geth recalled Legion and cut any negotiation possibility. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that created their own "anti-organic genocide supporter" image, and failed to rectify that image.
Gerrel's judgements are based on things the GETH failed to fix. And you seriously intent to try and BS about him not being sensible when all he's seen is reasons to distrust them? THAT is LoL to the absolue max.  All you've done is try to say that this war was caused by quarian agression. That wasn't the case. Quarian desperation, and geth apathy were the causes of this war.

And AGAIN, in this situation, Tali is the only one speaking. And she says NOTHING that can be taken as a valid reason. No logic, motivation, or reason to the random order. It's like someone suddenly shouting "the sky is falling!" How serious do you think anyone is going to take that? Not even if the bloody president was shouting it would anyone take it at face value. NO ONE is going to follow an order that goes against 300 years worth of evidence - doens't matter WHO you are. What's absurd is that you would just jump on such sentances with no reason or logic. Not something any REASONABLE person that has 17 million on their shoulders would do. Especally in a war situation where the enemy's defenses are breached, and decisive action is required.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 avril 2013 - 04:18 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, it's a proposition that went nowhere, because Legion had no proof that the geth wanted peace, and after being recalled, the lack of contact made it clear that the geth felt the same. The geth's track record for killing diplomatic envoys is 100%. It's hard to agrue with odds like that, remember? Sending any ships is basically an effort in futility. And devoting resoruces to a futile effort when the Reapers are comming is risking lives.

WRONG. It is not impossible to kill the driver of an armed convoy without hitting the civilians in the transport. The geth already demonstrated they had the capasity to make such calculations when they used thousands to individual fighters to block incoming enemy shots with perfect accuracy. They can do that, yet you expect me to believe it's impossible to shoot off a set of hastily-welded on guns from civilian tugs? Please don't make me laugh. "Rules of War" don't scanction mass murder. Not when other options are clearly and redily  avalible. There were other options open to the geth. They just ignored them. The geth CHOOSE to kill the quarian civilians. There is no two ways about it. The quarians were NOT combatants because they were not armed. The people shuttling them around were. And they were NOT living shields, because they willingly agreed to be transported to Rannoch. They do NOT meet either of the criteria you have presented.

And WRONG. If that were true, the Dorn's statement about the civilians not wanting a war would not exist. They didn't want a war, but chose it for the sake of having a homeworld. I already told you where you can find Tali telling you that the quarians are remorsfull for the Morning War, and that guilt has been what stopped them from retaking Rannoch prior to now.
You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the truth: the quarians did this because they believed the alternitive was death. Same as the geth.

You are not even trying to answer the question.  No one has ever defeated the Reapers.  No one.  By your logic, it is an effort in futulity so why try.  The answer is because the alternative is death.  So the point here is yes it may be futile but so f**king what.  The alternative is your kids going to war. 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Human_shield

If you are telling me the Geth should not fire on Quarian ships that are firing at them because they choose to put Civlians on board then by the definition above, the Quarians have potentially committed a War Crime.  I don't want your opinion.  I want you to provide me with documented evidence from a source that says otherwise.  Your opinion means nothing



And you are blatantly making stuff up.  The Quarians were not just shuttling their civlians around.  They were not just being transported to Rannoch.  Koris f**king says point blank Gherel insisted involving the civilians ships.  There is no reason for Koris to see that if these ships were just used as transport.  They are involved in the fighting Koris says this.



Explain to me if these ships were just transport how the hell are they so close to Rannoch to be getting shot by ground cannon?  How are they taking have losses?  Give me a break dude.  They didn't want war but the Quarians forced them into it and have been using them in this war to fight not as transport.  If hese ships were just transport they would be behind the rest of the fleet and unable to be shot at unless the rest of the flotilla was already destroying.  No f**king army transports civlians by having them out in front of the combat to the point they can be shot so easily.  This is bullsh*t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uwbny5ajhY

That is what a real Quarian hero looks like.  He f**ked up.  He should have resisted this war.  He should have refused Gherel insisting the Civilian Fleet be involved in this War.  But in the end he doesn't make f**king excuses.  He doesn't blame the Geth.  He tells Shep to do what he couldn't.  To save the Quarians not from the Geth but FROM THEMSELVES.