That situation would be the same. But since geth are networked into the hardware, so that ALL of them are actively linked in fighting.... well, in truth, the examples on active combatants are applocable to the GETH, not the quarians. The geth don't have civilians. All are able and willing to fight. That's not the case with the quarians - they are nither trained, experianced, or willing to fight. The geth, ALL geth, are. These same rules are applicable for the rachni - every one of them has a soldier bread into them, and with their hive mind, they share experances, like combat knowledge. There aren't any such things as civilian rachni. Just as there isn't such a thing as civilian geth. Also, since the geth have proven time and again that they don't believe in taking prsioners, that scenerio of a hostage situation wouldn't exist.
And I have said that it's "complete and utter monumenrtal fu*king bulls*it" of YOURS because not once is any video showing the fight displayed until after a set choice is made. The geth may have stopped THEN, but they can resume defending themselves. Being "vunerible" does NOT mean "unable to fire." Saying they stopped then doesn't KEEP them from firing again as the quarians close the gap while Shepard is talking to Legion.
So STOP with YOUR bull already. YOUR "beloved" geth didn't stand down till AFTER the quarians did. YOUR "beloved" geth butchered people when there was ample chance to avoid it, in BOTH the Rannoch War and the Morning War. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that did noting but paint themselves as mass murders for 300 years. YOUR "beloved" geth took no responcibility for the Heretics. YOUR "beloved" geth recalled Legion and cut any negotiation possibility. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that created their own "anti-organic genocide supporter" image, and failed to rectify that image. Gerrel's judgements are based on things the GETH failed to fix. And you seriously intent to try and BS about him not being sensible when all he's seen is reasons to distrust them? THAT is LoL to the absolue max. All you've done is try to say that this war was caused by quarian agression. That wasn't the case. Quarian desperation, and geth apathy were the causes of this war.
And AGAIN, in this situation, Tali is the only one speaking. And she says NOTHING that can be taken as a valid reason. No logic, motivation, or reason to the random order. It's like someone suddenly shouting "the sky is falling!" How serious do you think anyone is going to take that? Not even if the bloody president was shouting it would anyone take it at face value. NO ONE is going to follow an order that goes against 300 years worth of evidence - doens't matter WHO you are. What's absurd is that you would just jump on such sentances with no reason or logic. Not something any REASONABLE person that has 17 million on their shoulders would do. Especally in a war situation where the enemy's defenses are breached, and decisive action is required.
You didn't answer the question. What are the Quarians suppose to do if the Geth have organic civilians on their ships and are shooting at them? I didn't ask if this scenario is possible. I asked what are the Quarians suppose to do. Are they suppose to get killed? Answer the question.
And no Silver you claimed the statement that they were completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped shooting. You said that. Your statment is below. So are you going to admit you were wrong or not. You can't hide from the statement below.
AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
AGAIN, it's a proposition that went nowhere, because Legion had no proof that the geth wanted peace, and after being recalled, the lack of contact made it clear that the geth felt the same. The geth's track record for killing diplomatic envoys is 100%. It's hard to agrue with odds like that, remember? Sending any ships is basically an effort in futility. And devoting resoruces to a futile effort when the Reapers are comming is risking lives.
WRONG. It is not impossible to kill the driver of an armed convoy without hitting the civilians in the transport. The geth already demonstrated they had the capasity to make such calculations when they used thousands to individual fighters to block incoming enemy shots with perfect accuracy. They can do that, yet you expect me to believe it's impossible to shoot off a set of hastily-welded on guns from civilian tugs? Please don't make me laugh. "Rules of War" don't scanction mass murder. Not when other options are clearly and redily avalible. There were other options open to the geth. They just ignored them. The geth CHOOSE to kill the quarian civilians. There is no two ways about it. The quarians were NOT combatants because they were not armed. The people shuttling them around were. And they were NOT living shields, because they willingly agreed to be transported to Rannoch. They do NOT meet either of the criteria you have presented.
And WRONG. If that were true, the Dorn's statement about the civilians not wanting a war would not exist. They didn't want a war, but chose it for the sake of having a homeworld. I already told you where you can find Tali telling you that the quarians are remorsfull for the Morning War, and that guilt has been what stopped them from retaking Rannoch prior to now. You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the truth: the quarians did this because they believed the alternitive was death. Same as the geth.
You are not even trying to answer the question. No one has ever defeated the Reapers. No one. By your logic, it is an effort in futulity so why try. The answer is because the alternative is death. So the point here is yes it may be futile but so f**king what. The alternative is your kids going to war.
If you are telling me the Geth should not fire on Quarian ships that are firing at them because they choose to put Civlians on board then by the definition above, the Quarians have potentially committed a War Crime. I don't want your opinion. I want you to provide me with documented evidence from a source that says otherwise. Your opinion means nothing
And you are blatantly making stuff up. The Quarians were not just shuttling their civlians around. They were not just being transported to Rannoch. Koris f**king says point blank Gherel insisted involving the civilians ships. There is no reason for Koris to see that if these ships were just used as transport. They are involved in the fighting Koris says this.
Explain to me if these ships were just transport how the hell are they so close to Rannoch to be getting shot by ground cannon? How are they taking have losses? Give me a break dude. They didn't want war but the Quarians forced them into it and have been using them in this war to fight not as transport. If hese ships were just transport they would be behind the rest of the fleet and unable to be shot at unless the rest of the flotilla was already destroying. No f**king army transports civlians by having them out in front of the combat to the point they can be shot so easily. This is bullsh*t.
That is what a real Quarian hero looks like. He f**ked up. He should have resisted this war. He should have refused Gherel insisting the Civilian Fleet be involved in this War. But in the end he doesn't make f**king excuses. He doesn't blame the Geth. He tells Shep to do what he couldn't. To save the Quarians not from the Geth but FROM THEMSELVES.
WRONG. All that's happening is you DODGING THE QUESTION. First off, the idea is that they can beat the Reapers by all working together. They have to at least TRY, right? And the quarians CANNOT while overloaded with civilians. They would be a target and a burden to the allied forces as is. the ONLY chance they have is to become self-sufficant, which they CANNOT DO WITHOUT A DAMN WORLD. Also, the quarians were not MENT for the front line. They are supposed to be logistics experts. Crucible construction, troop transport, cvilian evac, supply running. NONE of which can be done if they have civilians. It's the difference between having ANY hope for a future, or NO hope for a future. Honestly, did you EVER read any of what I posted? Because you are recycling the same disproved headcannon over and over.
And AGAIN, W.R.O.N.G. They are NOT human shields if they WILLINGLY PARTICIPATE in being trasnsported. Also, the entire point of arming them was PRECAUTIONARY. A Safety countermeasure. Something they hoped would never have to come into play, but prepared for just in case. They were NOT sending them to war. They were simply making sure they had precautions so they wouldn't be massicared. The quarian civilian ships were supposed to hang back, while Gerrel and Raan cleared out the geth using Xen's viral flash-bang. They were NEVER supposed to be involved in the front-line fighting itself. The GETH forced that to happene when they blockaded them and began tearing into them.
I AM TELLING YOU THIS: If the option to spare civilians is openly avalible, and you have the full capability/ability, and oppertunity to do so, then ignoring it is tantimount to mass murder. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. And it WASN'T a war crime since they all agreed to come, and they were NOT supposed to be part of the fighting in the first place. Look at countries like the U.S. The military doesn't kill civilians when there is an alternotive. If you kill the people shooting at you, that's one thing. If you shoot the civilians locked in cargo holds, unable to fight, or even have any autonomous choice in what's happing outside their habitation blocks, then that's MURDER. Plain and smmple. Okay, How about I create a situation with the GETH that mirrors what the quarians are in. Maybe THAT will get through to you. It's no less murder then shooting a defensless geth server hub loaded with programs. The geth around it are actively shooting at you. But the geth hub is there in the back, filled with programs that aren't loaded, and the geth that are shooting at you are based in the hub You can either destroy the attacking platforms, or shoot the hub and kill several thousand programs, including ones not attacking you. By YOUR OWN LOGIC, shooting the hub to kill all the geth around you - attacking geth, AND idle geth - is perfectly acceptible? Honestly, ENOUGH of your damn double standard logic. Your sociopathic opinion would never get you anywhere but in a dictatorship.
ONLY AFTER THE GETH OVERWHELMED THEM AFTER BEING UPGRADED. They were only involved in the fight AFTER the geth became immune to the quarian viral weapon. Honestly, did you EVER READ ANY of what I posted? Obviously not, as I made this point several times already. I mean, this isn't rocket science. Why are you twisting everything around?
AGAIN, the civilian and military ships can not be split up over more then one system. They MUST all stay in the same system to function. Without the military ships, the fragile liveships are vunerible, and if they fall, the quarian race starves. And the military ships must remain at least within the same system because they are reliant on the civilian fleet for supplies (first-aid, food, fuel, repair materials, ect). There was at least a planet or two between the two fleets, but they never split up far enough to be out of shuttle range. When the geth became Reaper-upgraded and Xen's weapons lost all effect, it forced the fleet to bunch up and hunker down together, grouping up so that the geth couldn't pick them off. Hence why every ship, including the civilians, which were SUPPOSED to be hanging back, were suddenly drawn into a fight for their lives, instead of what was supposed to be a clean, easy victory over the geth.
So, AS ALWAYS, the only Bulls*it is from YOU. Are you starting to see a pattern here in how you always try to pin this all on being quarian sourced?
And yet, in Tali's trial, wasn't HE the one that incited fear of the geth in her hearing, to further his own political mechinations against Tali, and ultimately, her father? Do NOT try to paint Koris as a damn saint among villians. After the majority of quarians voted for war, he buried his concerns and focused on making sure the civilians were not part of the fighting unless it was impossible to avoid. Which it became after the geth became Reaper-upgraded. Also, I remind you that Gerrel is JUST as willing to admit he screwed up, given that he stands down after he learns the geth are not genocidal monsters, and are open for peace. Koris is no better an example of the quarians then Gerrel, Reegar, or Tali.
That situation would be the same. But since geth are networked into the hardware, so that ALL of them are actively linked in fighting.... well, in truth, the examples on active combatants are applocable to the GETH, not the quarians. The geth don't have civilians. All are able and willing to fight. That's not the case with the quarians - they are nither trained, experianced, or willing to fight. The geth, ALL geth, are. These same rules are applicable for the rachni - every one of them has a soldier bread into them, and with their hive mind, they share experances, like combat knowledge. There aren't any such things as civilian rachni. Just as there isn't such a thing as civilian geth. Also, since the geth have proven time and again that they don't believe in taking prsioners, that scenerio of a hostage situation wouldn't exist.
And I have said that it's "complete and utter monumenrtal fu*king bulls*it" of YOURS because not once is any video showing the fight displayed until after a set choice is made. The geth may have stopped THEN, but they can resume defending themselves. Being "vunerible" does NOT mean "unable to fire." Saying they stopped then doesn't KEEP them from firing again as the quarians close the gap while Shepard is talking to Legion.
So STOP with YOUR bull already. YOUR "beloved" geth didn't stand down till AFTER the quarians did. YOUR "beloved" geth butchered people when there was ample chance to avoid it, in BOTH the Rannoch War and the Morning War. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that did noting but paint themselves as mass murders for 300 years. YOUR "beloved" geth took no responcibility for the Heretics. YOUR "beloved" geth recalled Legion and cut any negotiation possibility. YOUR "beloved" geth were the ones that created their own "anti-organic genocide supporter" image, and failed to rectify that image. Gerrel's judgements are based on things the GETH failed to fix. And you seriously intent to try and BS about him not being sensible when all he's seen is reasons to distrust them? THAT is LoL to the absolue max. All you've done is try to say that this war was caused by quarian agression. That wasn't the case. Quarian desperation, and geth apathy were the causes of this war.
And AGAIN, in this situation, Tali is the only one speaking. And she says NOTHING that can be taken as a valid reason. No logic, motivation, or reason to the random order. It's like someone suddenly shouting "the sky is falling!" How serious do you think anyone is going to take that? Not even if the bloody president was shouting it would anyone take it at face value. NO ONE is going to follow an order that goes against 300 years worth of evidence - doens't matter WHO you are. What's absurd is that you would just jump on such sentances with no reason or logic. Not something any REASONABLE person that has 17 million on their shoulders would do. Especally in a war situation where the enemy's defenses are breached, and decisive action is required.
You didn't answer the question. What are the Quarians suppose to do if the Geth have organic civilians on their ships and are shooting at them? I didn't ask if this scenario is possible. I asked what are the Quarians suppose to do. Are they suppose to get killed? Answer the question.
And no Silver you claimed the statement that they were completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped shooting. You said that. Your statment is below. So are you going to admit you were wrong or not. You can't hide from the statement below.
AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
I don't NEED to. The Alerei answers if FOR me. Rescue: That's the first option. Look at the Alerei. From what Reegar and Gerrel tell you, the first instinct was to try and search for survivors. The Migrant Fleet Marines that went in saw nothing but bodies, and geth poruing out everywhere, killing everything. ONLY AFTER it became appearant that all people on the Alerei were dead was the prospect of destorying the ship brought up. ONLY AFTER they first tried rescue.The only reason it wasn't destroyed when it was obvious that there were no survivors, was because Raan stalled it, hoping that evidence that could exonorate Tali was aborad. So, THERES your answer: They would mount a rescue operation first. Satisfied, smartass?
I said that Gerrel saying they stopped shooting did not mean they were defensless. Being vunderable isn't the same as being completely defensless. And AGAIN, weapons would be first priority to reactivate if they are trying to defend themselves. So NO, they were likely NOT completely defenseless. Vunerible isn't the same as "completely unable to fight back at all." Try again.
And AGAIN, Codex says that the geth will power down AFTER the quarians stop, not before.
I Think this thread shows one thing, you need a good PR crew with lots of supermodels and otherwhise who are extremely competent at infoltration and winning hearts and minds. Goebels style++ upgraded.
Then you can conquer the World and will have lots of support as you commit your atrocities and genocides. People will usualy pick you as their favrite until you start shootign at them. In some cases they will even forgive personal assasination attempts because they get too infatuated with you.
It seems that no matter how much and how often the Quarians screw up they still got supporters that are ready to forgive them of anything, even when they admit their crimes outright, they are just turning a deafear in that direction. Inventing some kind of diversion or projection of guilt.
The thing is, choosing the Geth won't make the Quarians go extinct, there will just be fewer of them.
It's said that the population of Europé Asia and America all come from about 300 people leaving africa long ago. They breed expanded and populated most of the globe. A people seeking new territory or trying to escape something, we will never know the reason since people didn't write back then. Least not that we know of.
That in mind I'm sure the Quarians will survive. It will just take them a lot of time to rebuild their population to the point where people actualy think they are a political factor to account for in galactic politics. Hopefully they will have learned a lession. Unfortunately such event's usualy leads to radicalification or whatever would be the proper Word in English.
Blaming everyone else but themselves for their demise.
I would choose the Geth because I like Tali more than Legion, simple as that.
That doesn't make any sense...
it's a rhetorical statement, probably meaning this thread in it's entirety would likely be utilized as a secret weapon to enthrall reaperships... make them rather surrender and submit to exile... than face Operation Text Wall.
I would choose the Geth because I like Tali more than Legion, simple as that.
That doesn't make any sense...
it's a rhetorical statement, probably meaning this thread in it's entirety would likely be utilized as a secret weapon to enthrall reaperships... make them rather surrender and submit to exile... than face Operation Text Wall.
(to no where...)
I Think he meant he would choose to kill the Geth since he likes Tali more than Legion.
Remember people! Your moviestars and popstars could save your people! Make sure people see them and like them! It doesn't matter if you are wrong as long as people like you more!
I Think this thread shows one thing, you need a good PR crew with lots of supermodels and otherwhise who are extremely competent at infoltration and winning hearts and minds. Goebels style++ upgraded.
Then you can conquer the World and will have lots of support as you commit your atrocities and genocides. People will usualy pick you as their favrite until you start shootign at them. In some cases they will even forgive personal assasination attempts because they get too infatuated with you.
It seems that no matter how much and how often the Quarians screw up they still got supporters that are ready to forgive them of anything, even when they admit their crimes outright, they are just turning a deafear in that direction. Inventing some kind of diversion or projection of guilt.
The thing is, choosing the Geth won't make the Quarians go extinct, there will just be fewer of them. It's said that the population of Europé Asia and America all come from about 300 people leaving africa long ago. They breed expanded and populated most of the globe. A people seeking new territory or trying to escape something, we will never know the reason since people didn't write back then. Least not that we know of.
That in mind I'm sure the Quarians will survive. It will just take them a lot of time to rebuild their population to the point where people actualy think they are a political factor to account for in galactic politics. Hopefully they will have learned a lession. Unfortunately such event's usualy leads to radicalification or whatever would be the proper Word in English. Blaming everyone else but themselves for their demise.
Isn't that the problem, 'being sure so'n so will survive'? Arm chair generalization. It's really all this thread/OP is about. Hypothetical, hypothetical... (notice how the 'codex' has new and improved lore to fit lost argument?)
I would choose the Geth because I like Tali more than Legion, simple as that.
That doesn't make any sense...
it's a rhetorical statement, probably meaning this thread in it's entirety would likely be utilized as a secret weapon to enthrall reaperships... make them rather surrender and submit to exile... than face Operation Text Wall.
(to no where...)
I Think he meant he would choose to kill the Geth since he likes Tali more than Legion.
Remember people! Your moviestars and popstars could save your people! Make sure people see them and like them! It doesn't matter if you are wrong as long as people like you more!
Like Shepard in Arrival.. Baatarians < Survival of the fittest super hero..
I would choose the Geth because I like Tali more than Legion, simple as that.
That doesn't make any sense...
it's a rhetorical statement, probably meaning this thread in it's entirety would likely be utilized as a secret weapon to enthrall reaperships... make them rather surrender and submit to exile... than face Operation Text Wall.
(to no where...)
I Think he meant he would choose to kill the Geth since he likes Tali more than Legion.
Remember people! Your moviestars and popstars could save your people! Make sure people see them and like them! It doesn't matter if you are wrong as long as people like you more!
Like Shepard in Arrival.. Baatarians < Survival of the fittest super hero..
I'm not sure if Arrival Counts, the Reapers were pouring through and destroying that relay bought the galaxy a few months. They would have been dead within 24 hours. And they still died within approximately the same time. It was also a relatively small colony even if that's a poor excuse. Least it wasn't the Batarian homeworld. Also remember noone had a say in it. Noone voted for Shepard and/or Humanity. In the end it wasn't a popularity contest, just Shepard choosign between lettign the Batarians die with the reapers and blow up the relay and buy the galaxy soem time, or Let the Batarians die anyway and them let the Reapers spead on to the rest of the galaxy. The relay explosion might actualy have been more merciful than letting the Reapers hiskify a defenceless colony getting beset on by the Entire Reaper armada.
Tali was also there for 3 games Legion had the end of one game to make an impression and a Cameo in the next game. I do like Tali, but I'm trying to ignore that when dealing with something as big as the Quarian war of agression, and their 300 year long rejection of a peaceful settlement as a possibility to be considered.
not really Finn, but I can see their point, but simply don't agree with it, as the situation, in the context of this OP, renders the thread kind of obsolete, in regard to 'military' objectives, in the game. Mostly bizarre circumstances and mostly unwieldy. IN reality(as I see it the fact of the mass relay within hidden geth space, the quarians aware of it, but the alliance ignorance removes the credibility of surprise in a VG rendition of any fog o war scenario.
NO PEACE makes no sense, in any event, as that is the mission statement of the game...so? I guess this is all set up for redundancy? What if?!?
Really amazing that it's gotten so many posts and views. I suppose it's linked with the destroy choosers, but that's just my opinion.
I would choose the Geth because I like Tali more than Legion, simple as that.
That doesn't make any sense...
it's a rhetorical statement, probably meaning this thread in it's entirety would likely be utilized as a secret weapon to enthrall reaperships... make them rather surrender and submit to exile... than face Operation Text Wall.
(to no where...)
I Think he meant he would choose to kill the Geth since he likes Tali more than Legion.
Remember people! Your moviestars and popstars could save your people! Make sure people see them and like them! It doesn't matter if you are wrong as long as people like you more!
Like Shepard in Arrival.. Baatarians < Survival of the fittest super hero..
I'm not sure if Arrival Counts, the Reapers were pouring through and destroying that relay bought the galaxy a few months. They would have been dead within 24 hours. And they still died within approximately the same time. It was also a relatively small colony even if that's a poor excuse. Least it wasn't the Batarian homeworld. Also remember noone had a say in it. Noone voted for Shepard and/or Humanity.
Tali was also there for 3 games Legion had the end of one game to make an impression and a Cameo in the next game. I do like Tali, but I'm trying to ignore that when dealing with something as big as the Quarian war of agression, and their 300 year long rejection of a peaceful settlement as a possibility to be considered.
according to the catalyst, preserved NOT dead...but that's a matter of perception and IF we can trust the Catalysts' word for what it meant by 'reconnecting' the harvested societies during the choices considerations, another whole bag of hammers.
edit: I ignore the small stuff with the G and Q squabble, in the scheme of things, they really don't matter, that's the only reason, apparently, the council didn't act on their disruptive feud. The Alliance military ignored them, other than plinking geth on general principals, kind of numb brained exercise on their part. Seems as if they'd of taken a hint/learned more about it, if so important?
But it is futile Silver. Countless cycles have tried. You think this is the first cycle in billions of years to work together. Be real. The point is it doesn't matter it if it is futile. You still try. That is the point. They could have sent a single ship and if it gets shot down then at least you tried. They could have like the Krogan said to the Turians, we will support you but you need to give us one of your less populated dextro based planets not currently under attack to so we have some place to base our operations and house our people. Palaven is burning and they just gave the Krogan the cure for the genophage. You could have at least discussed this possibility with them before sending kids to war.
Koris disputes you claims Silver. Koris would not be against arming the ships if they were merely transport. This entire line of reason is crap. Transport Vechicles are not up close enough to be getting shot down over Rannoch. Koris ship is shot down because he tried to take out a Geth cannon. That is not transport Silver.
And you miss the point. They are either shields or engaged in combat. A Non-Combantant on a ship that is engaged in trying to take out a Geth cannon is engaged in combat even though he calls himself a non-combatant. Or let me guess, you expect that Geth Cannon to magically just kill the pilot and the guy operating the Gun?
Umm, the US launches air strikes that kill civilans all the time. Collateral Damage. Hell they did one the other day and people were slightly upset because in taking out a key enemy target they killed children. Do you think anyone is going to jail for that. No that is what happens in war.
Koris admitted he screwed up. I already said he should have stood up to Gherel. When he sacrifices himself so you can save his people, he flat out says do what I could not, save my people from themselves. He flat out admits he f**ked up. Even at Tali's trial, he flat out admits later on it was wrong for them to turn it into a political sh*tstorm.
Please find me the scene where Gherel says I am sorry after he stands down? Gherel is not admitting he is wrong. He is told the Geth are back to full strength and will kill them. That is why he stands down. Also when did he say he was wrong after blowing up the dreadnaught Tali and I was own?
I don't NEED to. The Alerei answers if FOR me. Rescue: That's the first option. Look at the Alerei. From what Reegar and Gerrel tell you, the first instinct was to try and search for survivors. The Migrant Fleet Marines that went in saw nothing but bodies, and geth poruing out everywhere, killing everything. ONLY AFTER it became appearant that all people on the Alerei were dead was the prospect of destorying the ship brought up. ONLY AFTER they first tried rescue.The only reason it wasn't destroyed when it was obvious that there were no survivors, was because Raan stalled it, hoping that evidence that could exonorate Tali was aborad. So, THERES your answer: They would mount a rescue operation first. Satisfied, smartass?
I said that Gerrel saying they stopped shooting did not mean they were defensless. Being vunderable isn't the same as being completely defensless. And AGAIN, weapons would be first priority to reactivate if they are trying to defend themselves. So NO, they were likely NOT completely defenseless. Vunerible isn't the same as "completely unable to fight back at all." Try again.
And AGAIN, Codex says that the geth will power down AFTER the quarians stop, not before.
The Alerei was not involved in a war with over 50,000 ships in combat. You think if thousands of Geth ships with organic children on board were firing at the Quarians, the Quarians are going to try and board these Geth ships in the middle of a firefight, rescue the civilians, and then destroy the ships? Sure dude. Likewise, when the entire Quarian Fleet is firing on the Geth, they are not going to try and board the ship and ask, hey you in the suit are you a civilian or a solider.
And your defense is a lie. I posted what you said. Here it is again. Note the bold. You claimed I was using word of mouth. This is wrong. I used what Gherel said in the game. You said completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped shooting. This is completely wrong. It does because your beloved Gherel said they stopped firing. So you were 100% wrong Silver. The below has nothing to do with vulnerable and defenseless. You flat out tried to claim I was using word of mouth and making **** up. You are 100% categorically proven wrong by you beloved Gherel. There is no wiggle room here. There is no way to spin this. I used game facts and your statement is just wrong. You can either be like Koris and admit you were wrong or be like Gherel and be stubborn but the below statement is factually 100% incorrect as proven by Gherel dialogue.
AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
I Think this thread shows one thing, you need a good PR crew with lots of supermodels and otherwhise who are extremely competent at infoltration and winning hearts and minds. Goebels style++ upgraded.
Then you can conquer the World and will have lots of support as you commit your atrocities and genocides. People will usualy pick you as their favrite until you start shootign at them. In some cases they will even forgive personal assasination attempts because they get too infatuated with you.
It seems that no matter how much and how often the Quarians screw up they still got supporters that are ready to forgive them of anything, even when they admit their crimes outright, they are just turning a deafear in that direction. Inventing some kind of diversion or projection of guilt.
The thing is, choosing the Geth won't make the Quarians go extinct, there will just be fewer of them. It's said that the population of Europé Asia and America all come from about 300 people leaving africa long ago. They breed expanded and populated most of the globe. A people seeking new territory or trying to escape something, we will never know the reason since people didn't write back then. Least not that we know of.
That in mind I'm sure the Quarians will survive. It will just take them a lot of time to rebuild their population to the point where people actualy think they are a political factor to account for in galactic politics. Hopefully they will have learned a lession. Unfortunately such event's usualy leads to radicalification or whatever would be the proper Word in English. Blaming everyone else but themselves for their demise.
AGAIN, you show blatent double-standard logic. That is YOUR Modus Operandi. You are the one trying to overplay the quarian's role in this and trying to bury the genocide the geth caused, in BOTH the Morning War, and the Rannoch War. The geth NEVER had a good rep going. It was "butchered billions in needless mass slaughter," then "butchered Everyone that tried to make any form of peaceful contatc," then "refuse to take any form of action disclaiming our rouge Heretics," THEN "recall Legion and incarcerate him/forbid him from resuming trying ti negotiate." The image panted by that is ANYTHING but of someone that wants to negotiate. The worse part is that you try to headcannon that it's somehow all based on quarians being agressive, when that is not true at all. Quarians desperation, fueled by the Reaper's conquests, drove them ti launch their attack on the geth. It was NEVER because of hating the geth, It was because they wanted their damn world back.
All thorugh this discussion, you have tried to gospelize the geth. I have yet to see you admit to any statement about an action the geth did that was their fault.
And YES, choosing the geth DOES make the quarians go extinct. Even if two or three, hell several ships escape, they are STILL doomed. The quarian race cannot breed without individuals spending extended periods of time in clean rooms. Which were all on the three liveships that were destroyed. Without those clean rooms, the quarians have NO way to mate without the encounter being potentally fatal.Tali spicifically tells you that as "single kiss" could hospitilize her. Raan says that she need days in a clean room with Tali's mother to synch their immune systems, and that Raan was sick for a week. And that was from being in a clean room. It would be fatal to try without the sterrle rooms of the Liveships. Or without Rannoch. So, YES, they DO go extinct.
I Think this thread shows one thing, you need a good PR crew with lots of supermodels and otherwhise who are extremely competent at infoltration and winning hearts and minds. Goebels style++ upgraded.
Then you can conquer the World and will have lots of support as you commit your atrocities and genocides. People will usualy pick you as their favrite until you start shootign at them. In some cases they will even forgive personal assasination attempts because they get too infatuated with you.
It seems that no matter how much and how often the Quarians screw up they still got supporters that are ready to forgive them of anything, even when they admit their crimes outright, they are just turning a deafear in that direction. Inventing some kind of diversion or projection of guilt.
The thing is, choosing the Geth won't make the Quarians go extinct, there will just be fewer of them. It's said that the population of Europé Asia and America all come from about 300 people leaving africa long ago. They breed expanded and populated most of the globe. A people seeking new territory or trying to escape something, we will never know the reason since people didn't write back then. Least not that we know of.
That in mind I'm sure the Quarians will survive. It will just take them a lot of time to rebuild their population to the point where people actualy think they are a political factor to account for in galactic politics. Hopefully they will have learned a lession. Unfortunately such event's usualy leads to radicalification or whatever would be the proper Word in English. Blaming everyone else but themselves for their demise.
Isn't that the problem, 'being sure so'n so will survive'? Arm chair generalization. It's really all this thread/OP is about. Hypothetical, hypothetical... (notice how the 'codex' has new and improved lore to fit lost argument?)
And yet you were the one that said the Morning War was 700 years ago, when the Codex says 300.
But it is futile Silver. Countless cycles have tried. You think this is the first cycle in billions of years to work together. Be real. The point is it doesn't matter it if it is futile. You still try. That is the point. They could have sent a single ship and if it gets shot down then at least you tried. They could have like the Krogan said to the Turians, we will support you but you need to give us one of your less populated dextro based planets not currently under attack to so we have some place to base our operations and house our people. Palaven is burning and they just gave the Krogan the cure for the genophage. You could have at least discussed this possibility with them before sending kids to war.
Koris disputes you claims Silver. Koris would not be against arming the ships if they were merely transport. This entire line of reason is crap. Transport Vechicles are not up close enough to be getting shot down over Rannoch. Koris ship is shot down because he tried to take out a Geth cannon. That is not transport Silver.
And you miss the point. They are either shields or engaged in combat. A Non-Combantant on a ship that is engaged in trying to take out a Geth cannon is engaged in combat even though he calls himself a non-combatant. Or let me guess, you expect that Geth Cannon to magically just kill the pilot and the guy operating the Gun?
Umm, the US launches air strikes that kill civilans all the time. Collateral Damage. Hell they did one the other day and people were slightly upset because in taking out a key enemy target they killed children. Do you think anyone is going to jail for that. No that is what happens in war.
Koris admitted he screwed up. I already said he should have stood up to Gherel. When he sacrifices himself so you can save his people, he flat out says do what I could not, save my people from themselves. He flat out admits he f**ked up. Even at Tali's trial, he flat out admits later on it was wrong for them to turn it into a political sh*tstorm.
Please find me the scene where Gherel says I am sorry after he stands down? Gherel is not admitting he is wrong. He is told the Geth are back to full strength and will kill them. That is why he stands down. Also when did he say he was wrong after blowing up the dreadnaught Tali and I was own?
First off, thousands of cycles. At least 20,000 cycles. And AGAIN, a small hope is better then NO hope. One choice offers a chance, the other has NO chance. And the Crucible DOES the job in the end, no? So infalible is ALREADY a load of BS. No one knows before now that the Crucible was used before, so everyone DOES think there is quite the chance for victory.... IF they can all unite and fight. The turians downd several Sovergien-class in the Battle of Palaven, and dozens of Reapers fell in the Palaven ground war. They've been taking losses just like the allies, and THIS cycle has the Mass Relay network completely unlocked, and the Citadel - two things that NONE OF THE PAST CYCLES EVER HAD. And before you try BSing me about how they took the Citadel in the endgame, that was because The Illusive Man copyed Saren and sabotaged it. After all, humans, likely in civilian garb are more likely to scceed where an army of rather conpicus geth would fail, as they wouldn't be noticed from the refugees. Remember, TIM's face isn't exactally public knowledge.
And AGAIN, how many times to I have to say it? NO ship that ever tried survived, so what the hell is the point in trying again? It's like hitting a brick wall with a squeaky toy, expecting it to break with every hit. Nothing to even remotely suggest that the next try will be any different then the last - futile. Especally supported by the fact that the geth recalled Legion, and prevented him from returning comms with Tali. And spending time stalling risks the fleet's future. Decisive actions are needed to ensure they have any chance of surviving the Reapers. And, LoL, what?? Did you EVER read anything I posted? I spent 60+ pages telling you that that was one of the prime reasons they needed Rannoch - no one else COULD take their people. Name me one turian colony that ISN'T under attack, or ISN'T overcrowed well past safe limites. And if you find me one, tell me if it can handle 17 million high-maintinance civilians with strict health and diatary needs that would be IMPOSSOBLE for the turians to handle in the middle of a war crisis. Your suggestion is complete and utter LoL.
WRONG. He was NOT against arming the ships. He was against sending them into the conflic, which became impossible to avoid when the geth got their upgrades and boxed them in. Even Koris knew that the Civilians needed protection. Raan tells you as much. And AGAIN, you prove that never once did you listen in this debate. I said that keeping them from the frong lines was SUPPOSED to be how it went.... but then the geth got Reaper Upgrades, and forced the fleet to bunch up and grouop together. The geth's immunity to Xen's weapons made splitting the fleet too risky. THAT'S why the transprots had to group in with the "tanks" - because with the geth's upgrades rendering them inpossible to be stuned now, they could easily get around and butcher the liveships. So they regrouped them back together, with the civilian ships forming the "core" of the formation, and the military ships forming up around them. And Koris "sacrificed" his ship to stop it, as in suicide crash. NOT armed shooting. Suicide ram.
And AGAIN, wrong, because where is it stated that Koris' ship is a civilian ship? It's the flagship of an Admiral, so THAT would be a combat ship. AGAIN, you fail to create anything but headcannon. And AGAIN, even if you try to say "civilian ship" then that STILL doesn't change it, because the driver of the transprot "your precuoius Koris" would be the one to blame.
And AGAIN, only when there is no other option. The geth DID have that option. And ignored it.
And AGAIN, he's a bloody idealist. He's someone that would risk his entire race on fleeting dreams. Koris himself even admits to you that he no longer believes in peace if you take the option to save him, and says "you can't possibly think you can stop this war." He no longer believes peace is possible. "Save them from themselves" likely means getting them out of the Tikkun system. NOT achiveing peace. Not unless you convince him it's still possible by saving him. And apologes? I never heard him apologize for this, just as I never hear Hackett apologize for tossing the Second Fleet away. Or hear Legion apologize for the many deceptions he pulls over on you.
Gerrel standing down IS an admission that he was wrong. If he didn't think he was wrong, he would not have stopped firing. He would have kept going if he thought that he was still right about the geth being genocidal. And AGAIN wrong. If Shepard had only said "the geth are about to return to full strength" hw would NOT have stopped. What gets him to stop is if he is told the geth will not shoot if he stopps. That they will be open to peace. THAT gets him to stop, NOT the "return to full strength."
This looping of your headcannon is getting teduois. Just FACE it: You lost. You were wrong. Get over it.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 avril 2013 - 07:30 .
I don't NEED to. The Alerei answers if FOR me. Rescue: That's the first option. Look at the Alerei. From what Reegar and Gerrel tell you, the first instinct was to try and search for survivors. The Migrant Fleet Marines that went in saw nothing but bodies, and geth poruing out everywhere, killing everything. ONLY AFTER it became appearant that all people on the Alerei were dead was the prospect of destorying the ship brought up. ONLY AFTER they first tried rescue.The only reason it wasn't destroyed when it was obvious that there were no survivors, was because Raan stalled it, hoping that evidence that could exonorate Tali was aborad. So, THERES your answer: They would mount a rescue operation first. Satisfied, smartass?
I said that Gerrel saying they stopped shooting did not mean they were defensless. Being vunderable isn't the same as being completely defensless. And AGAIN, weapons would be first priority to reactivate if they are trying to defend themselves. So NO, they were likely NOT completely defenseless. Vunerible isn't the same as "completely unable to fight back at all." Try again.
And AGAIN, Codex says that the geth will power down AFTER the quarians stop, not before.
The Alerei was not involved in a war with over 50,000 ships in combat. You think if thousands of Geth ships with organic children on board were firing at the Quarians, the Quarians are going to try and board these Geth ships in the middle of a firefight, rescue the civilians, and then destroy the ships? Sure dude. Likewise, when the entire Quarian Fleet is firing on the Geth, they are not going to try and board the ship and ask, hey you in the suit are you a civilian or a solider.
And your defense is a lie. I posted what you said. Here it is again. Note the bold. You claimed I was using word of mouth. This is wrong. I used what Gherel said in the game. You said completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped shooting. This is completely wrong. It does because your beloved Gherel said they stopped firing. So you were 100% wrong Silver. The below has nothing to do with vulnerable and defenseless. You flat out tried to claim I was using word of mouth and making **** up. You are 100% categorically proven wrong by you beloved Gherel. There is no wiggle room here. There is no way to spin this. I used game facts and your statement is just wrong. You can either be like Koris and admit you were wrong or be like Gherel and be stubborn but the below statement is factually 100% incorrect as proven by Gherel dialogue.
AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
Pfft. Look at you. I gave you your example, and you STILL aren't satisfied.
YES, I do. That's what the Migrant Fleet Marines are for - anti-boarding duty, and occassional ground escort. Since every ship in the fleet is always in shuttle range of the others, such actions are EXPECTED - family is the highest value among them, so they will put their civilians first and formost. That's the reason they armed the ships in the first place. That's the reason the grouped the military around the civilians when the geth got Reaper upgrades. That's the reason Gerrel attacks the geth dreadnought. You REALLY haven't been paying attention in this, have you?
AGAIN, dead wrong. YOU are the one using headcannon and lies. Gerrel sepeking IS "word of mouth," which is taking someone purely by what they say. That's word of mouth verbatium. LoL. And AGAIN, that DOESN'T mean they are permenintly incapable fo shooting back. Stopping their attack doesn't mean they have lost all form of self-defense. So NO. I was NOT the one wrong here. Once again, you are. Especally since, AGAIN, the Codex lists YOUR "beloved" geth standing down SECOND in the fight, with the quarians standing down FIRST. AGAIN, the one that is "catagorically 100% WRONG" is only YOU.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 avril 2013 - 07:31 .
You are just making my point for me. We still tried despite 20,000 failures. Yet the Quarians give up on peace because it is futile. You just said 20,000 failes over billions of years and organics still try despite billions of years of futility yet I am suppose to believe the Quarians can't send one more ship into Geth space because of 300 years. I am not a mathematician but billions of years of futility is longer than 300 years.
Do you expect the Geth to just let the Quarians kill them because the Quarians are organic? It doesn't matter what the intent was. The civilians ships are on the front lines and firing at the Geth. They get shot down as a result. They are not transport.
Koris doesn't think peace is possible because his people are idiots that ignored them not because of the Geth. That is why he says save them from themselves not from the Geth. Gherel standing down is an admission that if he doesn't the Reaper Code Geth will kill them. As you have said repeatedly, in the non-peace options Gherel is never told about the Reaper Code. He continues to fire. In the peace option he is told and he stands down.
AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.
You were wrong. You specifically said above that completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped firing. You said that verbatim. It is above. Anyone can see it. Gherel proves you were wrong. All this other stuff is you trying to avoid admitting that you were wrong.
I don't want your reasons or excuses. Either explain to me how Gherel's statement does not prove you wrong when you said AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting, or accept you were wrong because that is exactly what Gherel said it meant. Or we can spend the next few weeks of you making excuses, me continuing to copy and paste your statement and say Gherel says you are wrong and rinse and repeat. Completely vulnerable does mean they stopped shooting because Gherel said so. That is canon. You are not cannon. Get over it.
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the fact of the mass relay within hidden geth space, the quarians aware of it, but the alliance ignorance removes the credibility of surprise in a VG rendition of any fog o war scenario.
