4745 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...

Dunabar

The Quarians are living people, the Geth are only machines, and that is my philosophical opinion which is neither greater or lesser than the philosophical opinions of others.

You are free to have an opinion but saying it is neither greater or lesser than someone else's is not entirely true. The above opinion is prejudice no matter how you slice it. Case in point. I am prejudiced against all non-human life on earth. I don't deem them the same as humans. If they gained sentience and could fight for their rights to the point of killing 2 billion humans then guess what I have no rational argument against them. I can't claim my prejudice means it was ok to do what I did to them. It was prejudice plain and simple.

It may be perfectly understandable from my perspective why I value human life more than the poor chicen fetus (eggs) I just ate for breakfast today but once those f**king chickens gain sentience and can fight for their rights, my prejudice is a losing argument 100%. You can no longer justify it period.

That does not mean you have to choose the Geth but say an opinion rooted in prejudice is philosophically the same as one not rooted in prejudice is simply incorrect in IMO.  Otherwise, every racial group that has every discriminated or slaughtered another group could say well my philosophical opinion that (insert racial group here) is inferior or subhuman to me is no greater or lesser than your opinion that they should be treated equally.  Umm, no.  It is lesser and will always be lesser.

Understandable, but it still doesn't change the fact that my main canon Shepard will still never save the Geth. Thanks for the reply though.

[remydat]

Dunabar wrote...

Understandable, but it still doesn't change the fact that my main canon Shepard will still never save the Geth. Thanks for the reply though.

Oh agreed, you are free to make whatever choice you want which is why I didn't respond to the rest of your post just the part of the logic I disagreed with philosophically.

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

Understandable, but it still doesn't change the fact that my main canon Shepard will still never save the Geth. Thanks for the reply though.

Oh agreed, you are free to make whatever choice you want which is why I didn't respond to the rest of your post just the part of the logic I disagreed with philosophically.

Understandable, but you can't force people to agree with your philosophical stances (Not you yourself, but you as in anyone in general.) Sometimes you just need to let things be and let people find their own philosophical path that they feel is most true to them, because in the end we all will die one day, and we will need to go out with those philosophical belief's with us. With time they may even change for better or worse, only time will tell.

[remydat]

Dunabar wrote...

Understandable, but you can't force people to agree with your philosophical stances (Not you yourself, but you as in anyone in general.) Sometimes you just need to let things be and let people find their own philosophical path that they feel is most true to them, because in the end we all will die one day, and we will need to go out with those philosophical belief's with us. With time they may even change for better or worse, only time will tell.

Which interestingly enough is what the Geth tried to do.  They left organics and their prejudice alone and organics keep trying to talk to them.  This goes back to my point about the KKK.  Once I know they hate me because of the color of my skin, there is nothing more to discuss with them until they come to understand their thinking is prejudiced.  Nothing I say or do is going to change them because their hate for me is not based on rational thinking.  You can't use logic against prejudice because their prejudice is not based on logic.

So this was the point I kept trying to make to Quarian supporters who kept insisting the Geth had to actively try and change this prejudice.  Why?  Until the law that bans their existence is removed, there is no point.

Modifié par remydat, 14 avril 2013 - 06:09 .

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...
So this was the point I kept trying to make to Quarian supporters who kept insisting the Geth had to actively try and change this prejudice.  Why?  Until the law that bans their existence is removed, there is no point.

If you're content with people hating you and saying you're a killer, then that's your choice you have to live with. However you have no right to complain at that point if they seek to remove you from the picture to ensure they're safe, because you allowed them to believe that you're a threat to them. However if you want them to change their opinions, you got to show them why you're not this predetermined belief, and why they're wrong. However though, no matter what you try, it will always ultimately fall upon them to see one way or the other.

In a matter such as this with the Geth and Quarians. Well one sides justice is the others injustice. All of which will take time to determine if it will heal or if it will only get worse. Pray for the best, but prepare for the worse.

[remydat]

Dunabar wrote...

If you're content with people hating you and saying you're a killer, then that's your choice you have to live with. However you have no right to complain at that point if they seek to remove you from the picture to ensure they're safe, because you allowed them to believe that you're a threat to them. However if you want them to change their opinions, you got to show them why you're not this predetermined belief, and why they're wrong. However though, no matter what you try, it will always ultimately fall upon them to see one way or the other.

In a matter such as this with the Geth and Quarians. Well one sides justice is the others injustice. All of which will take time to determine if it will heal or if it will only get worse. Pray for the best, but prepare for the worse.

This just contradicts what you said though.  You said sometimes you have to leave people alone and let them believe what they want.  Now you want me to try and force them to change.

Let me ask simply, what could a Geth do to prove he isn't just a machine to you?  That is your stated opinion of it.  You saw in the game the RC gave them the ability to became a True AI and yet you still think they are just machines. 

It makes no sense Dunabar.  If being told by Shep, Legion and Raan that Reaper Code made them fully AI didn't convince you, then what will?  If you are honest, the answer is either nothing will or they need to be more like me.  And therein lies the problem.  

You are basically asking the victims of prejudice to prove their existence has merit.  That is simply incorrect.  I have a right to exist because I am a sentient species.  I don't have to prove it to anyone.  If you are American, you don't prove you have right to life and liberty, the constitution guarantess you do. 

Modifié par remydat, 14 avril 2013 - 06:48 .

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...
This just contradicts what you said though.  You said sometimes you have to leave people alone and let them believe what they want.  Now you want me to try and force them to change.

You answered yourself at the start. There are times where you do need to let people be, than there are times you got to take a stand. I live a life of variables and situations, all of which can change my approach on a matter based upon the details of the situation at hand.

I have this friend of mine who I went to high school with and he was racist, he knew I wasn't, and he respected that we didn't see eye to eye on the matter. He was always civil though during school with these people till school was out. But one day he and I got talking , I said to him; "Bro, I know you don't think very highly of these people. I will not force you to believe differently, but bud. A day may come where your whole belief will be turned upside down."

^-- That is just me trying tell him that he may need to change his belief one day, not force him. Now if I said "If you don't change your belief, then you and I can  no longer be friends." That is trying to force him to change, it's all a matter of how you go about it.

To end this on a good note here, my friend did change his belief and he is no longer racist against that particular race. Military life can do good for your friends at times.

remydat wrote...
Let me ask simply, what could a Geth do to prove he isn't just a machine to you?  That is your stated opinion of it.  You saw in the game the RC gave them the ability to became a True AI and yet you still think they are just machines.

It makes no sense Dunabar.  If being told by Shep, Legion and Raan that Reaper Code made them fully AI didn't convince you, then what will?  If you are honest, the answer is either nothing will or they need to be more like me.  And therein lies the problem.  

You are basically asking the victims of prejudice to prove their existence has merit.  That is simply incorrect.  I have a right to exist because I am a sentient species.  I don't have to prove it to anyone.  If you are American, you don't prove you have right to life and liberty, the constitution guarantess you do. 

Nothing it could do, I will forever see it as a machine. Now it doesn't mean I will shoot them right away unless they do something to give me a reason to open fire on them. However, I do believe that the philosophical "Living person" is of blood, bone, emotion, and the likes. Quarians, Turians, Asari, Salarians, and other organics are just like me. Creatures of blood, bone, emotion, and the likes. They were not made on an assembly line in a factory or a garage of some sort. This is just my opinion.

Just letting you know now, sooner or later this will all come down to individual opinion and we may very well just have to agree to disagree because we just can't see eye to eye on the matter.

[remydat]

Dunabar,

The point though is that you didn't change him. He made the change himself. And if there is nothing I can do to change your mind then why as a Geth should I engage with you? The Geth did not bother organics. They decided the fear of synthetics by organics was a fundamental problem in their hardwiring and wanted to be left alone.

Personally, I am not friends with racists. If I find out one of my friends is a racist then we go our separate ways. That is not my forcing my opinion on him. That is me not wanting to be around anyone who is a racist as is my right. You are free to choose differently but if you expect the Geth or anyone to engage with prejudiced people or racists then you are implicitly trying to force your opinion on them. You are saying to them they can't choose to want to not engage with them because you have decided engaging with them is a good idea. That is not your decision to make for them.

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...

Dunabar,

The point though is that you didn't change him. He made the change himself. And if there is nothing I can do to change your mind then why as a Geth should I engage with you? The Geth did not bother organics. They decided the fear of synthetics by organics was a fundamental problem in their hardwiring and wanted to be left alone.

Personally, I am not friends with racists. If I find out one of my friends is a racist then we go our separate ways. That is not my forcing my opinion on him. That is me not wanting to be around anyone who is a racist as is my right. You are free to choose differently but if you expect the Geth or anyone to engage with prejudiced people or racists then you are implicitly trying to force your opinion on them. You are saying to them they can't choose to want to not engage with them because you have decided engaging with them is a good idea. That is not your decision to make for them.

1. Did I claim that I changed him? No I didn't. I said that it was just me trying tell him that he may need to change his belief one day. The details of why he changed however are a personal real life matter that is between him and I. However this is an off-topic matter that I was trying to use as an example. You have your view on it, I have mine, I'm going to chalk this up to agree to disagree to spare this topic a derailment.

2. Getting that gut feeling you and I are not going to be on the best terms when it comes to the actual Geth-Quarian conflict. Shall we draw the line here or do you wish to walk down this path of fire?

Modifié par Dunabar, 14 avril 2013 - 09:12 .

[remydat]

Dunabar wrote...

1. Did I claim that I changed him? No I didn't. I said that it was just me trying tell him that he may need to change his belief one day. The details of why he changed however are a personal real life matter that is between him and I. However this is an off-topic matter that I was trying to use as an example. You have your view on it, I have mine, I'm going to chalk this up to agree to disagree to spare this topic a derailment.

2. Getting that gut feeling you and I are not going to be on the best terms when it comes to the actual Geth-Quarian conflict. Shall we draw the line here or do you wish to walk down this path of fire?

Just because we disagree does not mean we are not on the best of terms.  We are expressing our views.  As long as we do so in a civil manner then there is no path of fire.  It only becomes a path of fire if people get worked up about it and start attacking each other over opinions about fictional characters.  I respond in the manner people choose to engage me.  You and I are fine as far as I am concerned.

So we can agree to disagree or we can continue.  I don't mind either way. 

[Dunabar]

remydat wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

1. Did I claim that I changed him? No I didn't. I said that it was just me trying tell him that he may need to change his belief one day. The details of why he changed however are a personal real life matter that is between him and I. However this is an off-topic matter that I was trying to use as an example. You have your view on it, I have mine, I'm going to chalk this up to agree to disagree to spare this topic a derailment.

2. Getting that gut feeling you and I are not going to be on the best terms when it comes to the actual Geth-Quarian conflict. Shall we draw the line here or do you wish to walk down this path of fire?

Just because we disagree does not mean we are not on the best of terms.  We are expressing our views.  As long as we do so in a civil manner then there is no path of fire.  It only becomes a path of fire if people get worked up about it and start attacking each other over opinions about fictional characters.  I respond in the manner people choose to engage me.  You and I are fine as far as I am concerned.

So we can agree to disagree or we can continue.  I don't mind either way. 

I think it would be best to just agree to disagree, save us both a possible headache for now, and see where this post ends up going later down the road. It's also nearing time to start cooking dinner and I haven't had lunch today, so my hunger is pretty much right up there.

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

You were wrong. You specifically said above that completely vulnerable does not mean they stopped firing. You said that verbatim. It is above. Anyone can see it. Gherel proves you were wrong. All this other stuff is you trying to avoid admitting that you were wrong. 

I don't want your reasons or excuses.  Either explain to me how Gherel's statement does not prove you wrong when you said AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting, or accept you were wrong because that is exactly what Gherel said it meant.  Or we can spend the next few weeks of you making excuses, me continuing to copy and paste your statement and say Gherel says you are wrong and rinse and repeat.  Completely vulnerable does mean they stopped shooting because Gherel said so. That is canon. You are not cannon. Get over it.

That they stopped firing means they broke their assault. But NOTHING to say they didn't resume it as the quarians pressed on. It's like being stunned. You hesitate as the stun passes over you, but then you resume what you were doing, albieat unfocused. SAME here. Stun them, they stop attacking you, but then get back up and imeadeately resume, although now addled.
AGAIN, you were WRONG. YOU are the one taking Gerrel by word of mouth, remember?

So ENOUGH already. Especally since you ignored what I said about quarian resuce attempts (your admission on that, I suppose).
SO YES, when I said "completeluy vunerible" does NOT mean "stopped shooting/incapable of shooting" I MEANT IT.
You keep using the quote, and STILL are being disproved. Don't you think that tells you something?
Just FACE it: You got into this situation because you believed everything you hear. NOT what you saw, which we didn't. You got into this because you didn't believe the actual battle transcript from the aftermath of the war, which says the geth dropped defenses TEMPERORARALY in all three versions, with one having them unable to fully regain coheasion, another having them devestate the enemy with full restoration, and the last having them regain cohesion, but stand down AFTER the quarians do.
YOU are the one that blindly followed what you were told here.
You lost. "get over it."

see how the text wall argumentative , in reality, actually works folks... as in "you lost, get over it"?

someone is overtly self absorbed.. now as many "hope" the Mods put this thread out of it's misery..lol

(quite actually the original thread post as well as the discussion is lost, not any argument to frame the precept. This accounts for the large  view count and ends the thread with a , but really just another  contribution to the war weary BSN....)

I'm only responding in kind to the self-absorbed and condesending manner he replied to others in.  And since people are still commenting, the "thread is dead" arguemnt doesn't hold water either.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Once again I don't need your excuses or reasons.  This statement was wrong.  You Quarian Idol Gherel confirms it.  When you can admit that, I will consider the rest of your argument.

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have stopped firing.  They are Completely Vulinerable.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

Once again, lack of comprehensipon or understanding. I am not the one idolizing people. YOU were the one idolizing the geth and Koris. You are the one demonizing the quarians just because someone dared to take your precious geth off a pedalstool and judge them equal to the quarians.

HOW many times MUST I state that the Codex says "the geth's attack was broken by a short pause from losing the Reaper code" before it gets through to you? A short pasue is NOT the same as "perminately disabled and unable to fight back"?

So NO, AGAIN, the only inaccurate interpertation is yours.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 avril 2013 - 10:33 .

[remydat]

Silver,

The below mentions nothing about a momentary lapse in the battle.  Nothing.  It says completely vulnerable does not mean stopped shooting.  Gherel confirms it does.  That is all.  I don't care about another argument.  The only argument being discussed is whether completely vulnerable means stopped shooting.  Yes or no based on Gherel's words?  

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have stopped firing.  They are Completely Vulinerable.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

[Da Don Giovanni]

silverexile17s wrote...
the "thread is dead" arguement doesn't hold water either.

This argument is far from over.

*Underline = mistake

*Bold = correct

Grammar ****?

Muahahahahahahahaha

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Fighting failed for 20 thousand cycles according to you Silver.  Fighting failed for billions of years.  Everything failed.  Yet you still see the value in fighting despite that monumetal failure.  But, OMG 300 years of failure means we can't try because it is futile, lol.  Billions of years of failure.  keep trying.  300 years of failure.  Give up and send your kids to war. 

Also, you have ignored another alternative.  The Krogan said they would help the Turians if they supported a cure for the genophage.  Why could the Quarians before sending kids to war say we will help the Turians and provide support if they give us one of their less populated dextro based planets currently not under attack?  Was such an offer made before they turned their kids homes into glass cannons?

Haha, so it is the Geth fault they are on the front lines.  Not the Quarians who sent them to war?  The Quarians were getting their a** handed to them because of the RC and choose to as Koris admits involve their Civilian ships. Not only that these idiots planned a war and didn't apparently ensure they could retreat in the event they failed.  A sensible war plan includes plans for retreat.  A sensible war plan means you control the Mass Relay in Rannoch so if sh*t hits the fan, you can get your civilians back through the realy.  So how did they get trapped in the home system.  Because they are stupid.  

And sorry bro, Koris dialogue trumps Silver.  Or are you Quarian?  Gherel is that you?

And yet, they keep fighting, don't they? Because negotiation is completely impossible. SEE the point?
Between an impossible fight, and impossible negotiation, ONE holds the surefire chance of being winible. The other is a waste of time. Time spent trying to talk to an enemy that has no interest in standing down, is time wasted that could be spent fighting them.
Also, I must remind you that fighting the Reapers HAS been sucessful. Look at the scorecard.
Fighting the Reapers: killed dozens of Reapers. Reapers HAVE taken casualties. This is true of every cycle.
Nigotiating with Reapers: Complete failure. No victory possible, only defeat.
Fighting: - partial/possible victory.
Negotiation: - impossible. Enemy has no interest.
And you ACTUALLY have the headcannon-fuled guts to say "there is no difference?" LOL. Unlike negotiation, fighting actually HAS had positive results against the Reapers. It's at least POSSIBLE to win. Negotiation - not so much.  The galaxy believes the same MO is shared by the geth - they can be beaten in fighting, but not reasoned with. And just like the Alliance has it's anti-Reaper Crucible, the quarians have their anti-geth viral weapon.
See how you have only provided the key to taking apart your own arguement?
And AGAIN, it was NOT sending them to war because they WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FIGHTING. How many times must the word  "transport" be given to you before it STICKS?

AGAIN, I explaind that wa sNOT possible. Me, @DenyonSlayer, @tevix, and @ChronoDragon ALL said it, but ONCE AGAIN, your ears were too clogged with headcannon to listen to anything but your own gospel.
You obviously don't know truians. They are military. They ration every single resorce, and devote everything to war. Unlike the quarians, they ARE a military species. EVERYTHING is based on rationing. And it's all devoted to the war. Even if there WAS a colony the WASN'T under attack from the Reapers, Collectors, or Cerberus, all others are STILL overcrowed past capasity. And even if there IS one that isn't, do you actually think that it will be equiped with clean rooms, steril medical equipment, and enough resources to accomidate 17 million people, who all have strict health and ditary needs? Housing ONE quarian is tough, because of constant mantinance on suits. And because they get sick from each-other without their suits, you would need one clean room for EACH of them if more then one at a time got hurt. And the Migrant Fleet burns through a months worth of rations in a SINGLE DAY. You think ANY turian colony is going to be able to spare that much on a daily basis?
Also, the truians have the advantage of being able to breathe WITHOUT needing filtered masks. The quarians do NOT have that advantage.
Boy, you REALLY didn't think that through before you posted it did you. For 100 pages, me, @DenyonSlayer, ChronoDragon, and @tevix, all listed this, and you haven't heard a WORD. further proof that the only thing you are concerned with is demonizing the quarians. Even when all the logic and information points to otherwise

And CORRECT. It IS the geth's fault, explistly. THEY are the ones that corralled the civilians, who were SUPPOSED to stay back from the fighting, into grouping with the military in an effort to keep the geth from massicaring them. The Heavy Fleet and Patrol Fleet were to take care of the geth themselves. The Civilian fleet was to stay at a distance while the military cleared out the geth, who were not able to counterattack because  Xen's weapons stuned and disabled them like a flash-bang, letting the quarians clear through them to Rannoch. But when the geth got Reaper upgrades, they became immune, and outmanuvered the quarians easily, forcing the military to group around the vunerible liveships and civilians. There wasn't ANY OTHER CHOICE but to group around the ships. Or would you rather they all die?
And like i said BEFORE, the only anternitive to fighting the geth was to die against the Reapers.
And ANY sensible plan can fail if a single unexpected factor tips everything. Like Reaper Upgrades.  Just look at Saren's plan. Everything was basically perfect, but one single unexpected factor -Shepard- ruined everything.
And AGAIN, the geth blockaded the Relay when they got their upgrades. Unlike the quarians, the geth can move much faster because they're ships are top-of-the-line, and not burdened with millions of civilians. The quarians would take days to enter a relay safetly. The geth would pick them apart piecemeal, now that the viral weapons that the invasion were dependant on are now useless.

The quarians' retreat was based on the ideal that the geth would never be able to counter the viral weapons. They thought they had the magic "geth stunner" button, and had nothing to worry about. The Reapers upgrading the geth came completely out of left field for them.
So YES, they DID have a plan. But it fell apart.

And AGAIN, wrong. Koris can make choices on lack of information just like everyone else. Besides, he's the one that blamed everything on the quarians, including things that were not their fault. ONCE again, you blindly take the word of everything you hear in-game is infalible godsend. How about you actually THINK FOR YOURSELF for once? Because with your self-absored logic and refusal to admit failure, the only person "like a quarian" is YOU, Xen.
That IS who you are behaving like, you know? Because Xen is self-absorbed, and has no regard for motivations, equal rights, or anyone eles logic but her own. And just as condesending to others. You and her are practically twins.

So why not let it go then. You've already made a mess of your own argumenet anyway.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 avril 2013 - 11:15 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

The below mentions nothing about a momentary lapse in the battle.  Nothing.  It says completely vulnerable does not mean stopped shooting.  Gherel confirms it does.  That is all.  I don't care about another argument.  The only argument being discussed is whether completely vulnerable means stopped shooting.  Yes or no based on Gherel's words?  

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have stopped firing.  They are Completely Vulinerable.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

AGAIN, WRONG.
Momentary laspse, AGAIN, does NOT mean incapable or unable to resume fire. The Codex gives you the battle transcirpt. WIth the SAME statement in all three outcomes - the geth had a MOMENTARY PAUSE in fire. Codex trumps word-of-mouth. Think for YOURSLEF for once. You are NOT indoctrinated, so stop taking everything as through you are.

No matter HOW many times you re-post that, it doesn't change the facts: YOU are the one that misinterpertited it. You are just spinning your wheels at this point.

You lost. Let. It. Go.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 avril 2013 - 11:17 .

[silverexile17s]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
the "thread is dead" arguement doesn't hold water either.

This argument is far from over.

*Underline = mistake

*Bold = correct

Grammar ****?

Muahahahahahahahaha

Do you see any other way to get the point across besides bolded, caped, underlined, or with itlics? Because it's bothersome to retread the same thing over and over when they don't get the point. Thus far, I've held my own, grammar excluded. But then again, I've yet to see anyone with perfect grammar in this thread.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 avril 2013 - 11:15 .

[remydat]

Silver,

The harvest was complete so no fighting them failed.  Winning a battle and ultimately being harvested is not success.  If you goal is to survive and you don't then you failed for billions of years.  And for all we know people like Saren ie the ones that negotiated are the last ones to be harvested last so they survived the longest, lol.  And also, at the end you get to decide and 2 of the 3 choices ultimately end with you working together with the Reapers.  So yeah your theory is simply incorrect.

And in any event the point remains, despite failure you try anyway.  Koris send Gherel insisted on the Civilian ships being involved in the war.  Gherel does not deny this.  So yes it was sending them to war.  You theory once again do no trump the game.

Umm Rannoch is not equipped to house the Quarians.  Do you think the Quarians think Rannoch has all the homes immaculate prepared and ready for them?  So one involves going to war with children, the other involves using your fleet as leverage to peacefully get something from the Turians.  The issue is not whether the Turians would say yes.  The issue is whether the Quarians even TRIED before sending kids to war.  Or let me guess it was futile because you say it is but fighting an enemy with billions of years of wins and zero losses isn't futile.  Again, the issue here is YOU TRY.

And incorrect, it is not the Geth's fault for WINNING.  This is f**king absurd.  It is the enemy's fault because you attacked them, they found an ally and now because they are WINNING, you send you kids in ships to go shoot at them?

Sorry, the Quarians were stupid.  Your fleet should be arranged so that the only way for the Geth to get to the Mass Relay and trap you in the system is by getting through the Heavy fleet.  The Heavy Fleet is still fighting so they had a terrible formation or a serious breakdown.  Above all else in a war where you have little resources and are fighting on enemy turf is to protect your supply chain (ie civilian fleet) and protect your escape (Mass Relay).  They failed miserably at both.

[remydat]

Silver,

You said completely vulnerables does not mean they stopped firing.  You even suggested it meant their barriers were down.  No it means they stopped shooting.  Again, when you can admit completely vulnerable meant they stopped shooting then we can discuss your momentary lapse comments.  Until then, I will just keep reposting what you said.  You were wrong.  Completely vulnerable means they stopped shooting.  Gherel saw the Geth.  You did not not.  He said they stopped shooting.  You claimed they did not stop shooting.  You were wrong.

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have stopped firing.  They are Completely Vulinerable.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

The harvest was complete so no fighting them failed.  Winning a battle and ultimately being harvested is not success.  If you goal is to survive and you don't then you failed for billions of years.  And for all we know people like Saren ie the ones that negotiated are the last ones to be harvested last so they survived the longest, lol.  And also, at the end you get to decide and 2 of the 3 choices ultimately end with you working together with the Reapers.  So yeah your theory is simply incorrect.

And in any event the point remains, despite failure you try anyway.  Koris send Gherel insisted on the Civilian ships being involved in the war.  Gherel does not deny this.  So yes it was sending them to war.  You theory once again do no trump the game.

Umm Rannoch is not equipped to house the Quarians.  Do you think the Quarians think Rannoch has all the homes immaculate prepared and ready for them?  So one involves going to war with children, the other involves using your fleet as leverage to peacefully get something from the Turians.  The issue is not whether the Turians would say yes.  The issue is whether the Quarians even TRIED before sending kids to war.  Or let me guess it was futile because you say it is but fighting an enemy with billions of years of wins and zero losses isn't futile.  Again, the issue here is YOU TRY.

And incorrect, it is not the Geth's fault for WINNING.  This is f**king absurd.  It is the enemy's fault because you attacked them, they found an ally and now because they are WINNING, you send you kids in ships to go shoot at them?

Sorry, the Quarians were stupid.  Your fleet should be arranged so that the only way for the Geth to get to the Mass Relay and trap you in the system is by getting through the Heavy fleet.  The Heavy Fleet is still fighting so they had a terrible formation or a serious breakdown.  Above all else in a war where you have little resources and are fighting on enemy turf is to protect your supply chain (ie civilian fleet) and protect your escape (Mass Relay).  They failed miserably at both.

You just don't get it, do you? 
They DID have victories. They DID fight them. They DID have sucess. What sucesses did negotiation bring? NONE. ZIP. ZERO. NADA. Bring me an example of negotiation with a Reaper working for the better, or even taking place, and THEN try prattling to me it's the same. Beacuse thus far, the cycles were much more sucessful with fighting then negotaition. And just like the quarians, the galaxy believes they have a Reaper-killing button. Just as the quarians have an anti-geth weapon. An assured chance for victory and a future, or assured death. This is NOT a hard thing to figure out.
Also, Saren was a HUSK by the end. THAT"S your example of a sucessful negotiation? Becoming a husk? LOL. Cheesecake was right. You ARE indoctrinated. No WONDER none of your posts have ANY logic to them. You act so judgemental to people grasping onto what is the biggest hope they have for survival. You really begrudge them for taking the one with the higher chance of sucess? You thing people are going to choose absolute doom over ANY chance to live? Or that one chance on something that NEVER paned out before, and shows no inclination of panning out now?
You REALLY have no clue about people, do you?

When you meet with COINSTANT FAILURE, and basically get a bilboard from the other saying "No Thanks," what the hell else do you think people will believe? You can't have peace because NITHER side thinks it's possible, or sees any proof of it being so. Wasting time on a proposal that obviously isn't going anywhere, nor shows any signs of going anywhere soon, is risking lives by not taking decisive actions to ensure survival.
And AGAIN, Gerrel insisted on it because the geth corralled them together. NO ONE in their right mind is going to deny doing what was necessary. So AGAIN, your misinterpertations and twisting will get you nowhere. Nice try.

Rannoch has atmosphere and water and food that won't KILL them. Tolerible gravity. An ecosystem that will IMPROVE their immune systems. It has tons and tons of geth material and bunkers to salvage and take refuge in. It's rocky mesas offer perfect cover. It has automated weapons that can be repruposed, and stockpiles of geth weaponry.  Rannoch is nothing short of a fortress. Even the name "Rannoch" means "Walled Garden" in the quarian's "kaleesh" launguage.
And AGAIN, you somehow forget that thanks to the atmosphere of Rannoch, the quarians won't need to live in isolated environments anymore. They can survive with huts, or create temperorary housing from the many geth bunkers they can salvage (this is what will be avalible to them if they are picked in the standoff).
You REALLY need to get some comprehension here. AGAIN, how many times MUST I say "the turians cannot spare anything to the quarians" before it hits you that "the turians cannot spare anything to the quarians?" You think the turians are going to have a dextro world that ISN'T occupied by their own people, with clean room facilities, and a months worth of supplies daily all avalible? Sorry, but unlike you, I DON'T subscribe to headcannon monthly. If the turians could spare that kind of thing, don't you think they would have OFFERED it already when Shepard was sent to barter with them? The turians have to defend against Cerberus, Reapers, Collectors, and eventually Reaper-controlled Geth. As well as try to evacuate their people and offer aid to their front lines, WHILE coordinating develipment of the Crucible. You REALLY think they are going to be able to handle 17 million high mantiance quarian civilians? Get your head on streaight, why don't you? NO ONE is in any position to offer that kind of support in a galactic war. The very thought is beyond absurd.

And WRONG. It's the geth's fault for not sparing the civilians when they both had the capability and oppertunity to do so. I never faulted them for winning. I faulted them for resorting to genocode when it was preventible. And AGAIN, those ships were NOT supposed to be in the fight. The geth forced them to be on the front when they became Reaper-puppets.

SORRY, but your entire argeuement has been revealed to be biased and headcannon-based.
Also, you forget that the plan was to take Rannoch. The quarians likely didn't think Retreat was going to happen since they were winning. And if they did need to retreat, they had Xen's weapons to disable the geth's ships and punch through any defense the geth tried to put up.
But Reaper Code punched a hole in all that. The geth were in disarray. The plans the quarians drew up didn't include the geth suddenly being able to counter Xen's viral weapons.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 avril 2013 - 01:30 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

You said completely vulnerables does not mean they stopped firing.  You even suggested it meant their barriers were down.  No it means they stopped shooting.  Again, when you can admit completely vulnerable meant they stopped shooting then we can discuss your momentary lapse comments.  Until then, I will just keep reposting what you said.  You were wrong.  Completely vulnerable means they stopped shooting.  Gherel saw the Geth.  You did not not.  He said they stopped shooting.  You claimed they did not stop shooting.  You were wrong.

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have stopped firing.  They are Completely Vulinerable.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, completely vunerible does NOT mean they stopped shooting. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

Once again, all you are doing is embarissing YOURSELF.

Codex: Battle of Rannoch (geth destroyed).
After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.


Note the bolded. THAT doesn't look like "unable to fire back" now does it? Or that they completely stopped shooting. Does It, smartass? EXACTALLY like I said, Gerrel's statement about them being completely vunerible was NOT the long-term case. An observation of the moment the Reaper code cesed, but like I said, NOT a representation of the battle itself.

As I said, the offcial battle transcript located in the Codex trumps word of mouth. You REALLY need to stop acting like a mindless indoctrinated and actually THINK outside of what you are told.

Consider yourself owned.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 avril 2013 - 01:40 .

[remydat]

Silver,

They lost for billions of years.  That is not success.  They lost.  By this logic Saren was successful because he was never killed by a Reaper.  His negotiation won.

And I don't begrude them at all.  That is my entire point.  It doesn't matter if something seems futile, you still try.  On one hand you understand why they fought the Reapers despite it appearing futile and on the other you completely miss the point with the Quarians.  As a parent it doesn't matter if peace with the Geth or negotiation with the Turians is futile.  It doesn't matter.  You try it anyway because otherwise your kids will be going to war and it doesn't matter if you don't expect them to get hurt as the war showed they did get hurt.  They were put in harms way.  So no matter the futility you try.  Get it yet?

And no, as I recall it will take 60 years or so for them to get acclimated back to Rannoch. That is useless when a war is going on.  They have no way of knowing the Geth have been cleaning up toxins so for all they know it is a poisoned planet.  Things don't just run by themselves for 300 years.

[remydat]

Silver

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING.  They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

See the bold and the underline.  Is your bolded statement accurate based on what Gherel ie the person who said COMPLETELY VULNERABLE said?  Did he say it because the Geth STOPPED FIRING or like you suggested because barriers were down?  The Codex did not use the term Gherel did.  So is your statement correct based on what Gherel said?

Modifié par remydat, 15 avril 2013 - 02:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Silverexile, is it actually mandated by someone that you be the most titanic jerk possible?