Auld Wulf wrote...
This really continues to be a thread about prejudice versus anti-prejudice. I'll keep pointing this out. It's funny because it's finally starting to be acknowledged that Silver is kind of a jerk. See, as I've often said, the Geth have their flaws and Geth-supporters point out those flaws and acknowledge them. A Geth-supporter tells you that they have erred, like any other being alive, and they have made some drastic errors. However, speak to the Quarian-supporters and all you get is that they are Aryan Perfection.
Here's what I'm seeing from the Quarian-supporters:
The Quarians
- Strapping guns to liveships, using hostages as living shields. Evil? No! That's Aryan Perfection!
- Making an unprovoked bombing run on an unarmed installation. Evil? No! That's Aryan Perfection!
- Killing civilian Geth-supporters of their own race. Evil? No! That's Aryan Perfection!
The Geth
- Creating an ambassador to seek out pace. Good? No! That's demonic evil!
- Distancing themselves from the heretics and being willing to rewrite/destroy them for the good of the galaxy. Good? No! That's demonic evil.
- Moving off-world as a motion toward peace. Good? No! That's demonic evil!
And that's why this discussion continues to be a bit of a farce.
I, as a Geth-supporter, can say that the Geth are flawed creatures. I, as a Geth-supporter, can say that I like Koris, Tali, and probably the majority of the Quarian peoples. I, as a Geth-supporter, only dislike certain admirals for their unethical (and insane) actions.
I, as a Geth-supporter, am able to see things in shades of grey.
A Quarian-supporter can see only in black & white. Geth BAD, Quarian GUD. Quarian LIVE, Geth DIE. And that's all there is to it. You can't argue with that because it's almost religious in how over-simplified it is. That's the argument that Geth-supporters are trying to deal with, since Quarian-supporters have elevated the Quarian race to Godhood, a status that cannot be questioned by anyone.
We've spent over one hundred and eighty pages figuring this out.
I know, personally, as a Geth-supporter that my side of the argument has the moralistic vantage point, because none of us are arguing that the Quarians are purely evil. And you don't have people like Yestare7 on our side, who hate the Geth so much that apparently he feels the need to troll any threads mentioning the Geth. Because his world is black & white, and his hate is overpowering. That's all he knows.
The Quarian-supporters have Silverexile and Yestare7 as examples. The Geth-supporters have Remydat, shodiswe as examples. Tell me that you don't see what I'm getting at, here.
The moment that things stop being seen in black & white is when this debate ends.
Until then, it's the Geth-supporters defending the Geth whilst also admitting that the Geth aren't perfect, and the Quarians aren't evil. Whilst the Quarian-supporters go on an all out religious-like barrage about how all Geth are pure evil, and how all Quarians are pure good. That makes for a really fun debate, and there have been hundreds of pages of this.
Ultimately, I'll continue to say it: This is just a thread about prejudice versus anti-prejudice at its core.
And I'll say it again: I'm still waiting for one of the Quarian-supporters to say something nice about Legion. Yestare, Silver, do you think you have it in you? I'm daring you, here. Kind of giving you a chance to prove your innocence.
Go on, then.
Again, dead wrong. I'm only responding to the condesending mannor that
you and @remydat use on everyone you talk to. I'm only countering you with your own attitude. The "other end of the fence" treatment, if you will.
First off, I AGAIN have yet to see a single instance of where you ever admitted to the geth having flaws of any kind. Like @remydat, you try ceaselessly to blame
everything on the quarians being some sort of agressive dictatorship when that's the farthest thing from the case.
Let me point out to you the blaring flaws in all your statements
Point one -
Wrong. The civilian ships were NOT supposed to be involved in the fighting. The were armed as a precaution in case of a worse case senerio, like the military ships not being able to reach them in time to forstall attack. The liveships and civilians were NOT to be in the fighting, instead staying back while the military ships took care of the geth, which thanks to Xen's weapons, was easy as pie. When the geth became immune to the weapon, the plan fell apart, and the civilians that were supposed to be as safe as can be were suddenly in danger. So, to recap - the civilians were NOT ment to be involved in the fighting at all, and only were after the geth corralled them all together.
Point two -
Wrong. The Megastructure was surrounded by at least a dozen space stations, all likely armed. As well as the entire geth armada surrounding it. So NO, the megastructure was
ANYTHING but defensless. I believe this has been pointed out several times before, and subsiquently ignored by you. And as a side-note, the megastructure was not a single construct, but a swarm of diffused sattlites clustered aroud Tikkun. Besides seeing that it coordinated all geth transmissions, I doubt the quarians knew exatcally what the thing was.
Point three -
Wrong. There is NO SUCH THING as a geth civilian. They are all "born" deady to fight, with "instinctual" knowledge of how to do so, by sharing experences. Like the Rachni.
And if you are talking about the quarians in the server, let me point out the flaws in taking that at face-value:
Legion has made lies of omission to you before.
Legion says that Shepard's perception is altered to process the data.
The server is infested with Reaper code.
It's three videos. You are really going to judge two races, all their subsiquent actions, and an entire year of warfare, based on three videos that all take place
before the actual war? If that isn't biased judging, I don't know what is.
Also, there were only two quarans. One was arrested and "thrown in with the others," indicating that like most cops, they're first instinct is to take people alive. Also, in the second vid, since it was a door breach, it's quite possible that Magara's death was a
complete accident. This has ALSO been told to you, with no acknowledgement for it.
Now, for the geth points.
Point one -
Wrong. Legion spicifically tells you that he was sent out to find Shepard. That was his
only objective. He was
discovered on Eden Prime while doing "reconnocence" to track down Shepard. He was
discovered - as in, he
didn't intend to be seen. If he'd gotten shot while trying to talk to someone, he would have said "we attempted diolouges with the local humans." He does NOT say anything like that however. Legion was
not a diplomatic ambassidor. He was an infiltrator. Plain and simple. And again, if the geth agreed to his idea to try negotiation, why did they recall him and provent him from ever reesatablishing contact with Tali. Surely if the geth supported him, they would have allowed Legion to maintain contact with Tali, right?
Legion was an isolated platform acting independantly from the geth. That negotiation attempt with Tali was done of his own free will, independant of the other geth.
Point two -
Wrong. The geth made no effort to differentate themselves from the Heretics. I don't recall any public statement saying "we do not condone or support the actions taken at the Battle of the Citidel." They didn't deal with the Heretics until
two years after Eden Prime, well after the Heretics stopped being a threat to others (Anderson tells you that the geth aren't the boogymen they used to be. Now, it's open season on them as far as everyone else is concerned). They only took real decisive action against the remaning Heretics after they became a threat to the True Geth themselves.
And even afterword, I still didn't see Legion out telling people that the geth were not represented by the Heretics.
Point three -
Wrong. Did you even read any Codex entries? If you read the planatary description of Rannoch, it will tell you that there are massive numbers of geth on Rannoch, numbering in the single-digit billions about, with the number of programs in servers being much higher. And unless the megastructure is mobile and can move Rannoch's star with it, the megastructure would have made the geth unable to EVER leave Rannoch. Even more so if the absorbed the entire output of Rannoch's star and ruined the ecosystem.
And, *sigh*, just for arguement's sake, even if used @Phatose's opinion that the geth
did work to not devestate the ecology, having the megstructure based in the Tikkun System at all would make the geth permemetly cemented in the system. It would do nothing but ensure they NEVER could leave Rannoch.
Thus, the only "farce" is your attempted double-standard of quarians. Again.
And AGAIN, I see you
saying that you see the flaws in the geth, but don't actually
point them out. Again, double-standard. You can't raise yourself on a pedalstool when you again have nothing to back it up. You are just making yourself look like a fool by doing that.
The only people that see nothing but strict, inflexible black and white are you and @remydat. @shodiswe as well, given the posts that refuse to even consider or acknowlegde that the quarians reasons were born from desperation, same as the geth's were.
All throughout, YOU have been the one gospelizing the geth. You are the one that says "quarians = BAD, geth = GOOD." And all throughout, you have tried to imply racisim to it, when the entire debate has been about the ideals behind the fight, not the appearance of the individuals leading it.
The only bad example is you, who gives the ideal that everyone that sides with the geth is completely fine with genocide, and supports it's practice. You and @remydat are the ones giving geth supporters a bad name. AGAIN, I have yet to see you state a single examle of when you ever acknowledged the geth as guilty of any fault. The only ones that ever saw things in inflexible black and white are you two.
Also:
Raan: "I wish I could have known it better." Regarding Legion and his helping them.
Reegar: "ordinarily that wouldn't fly with me, but I can't afford to be picky."
Koris and Tali are also show that they are accepting.
And finally, the clincher: In ME2, on the Alerei during Tali's loyalty mission, when you are talking to Tali in front of the research console. Pick the conversation options "That's a bad idea" and then "So take it back." You will hear Tali openly admit that
the majority of quarians are remorsful about how they panicked and attacked the geth, and that remorse for that is the reason the quarians never attempted to retake their world.
The thing that changes this is the Reaper invasion. They invaded so that they could have their world back. If anything, it seems the attack on the geth was actially nothing personal. The geth had Rannoch. They showed no indication of returning it. They recalled the only other geth that seemed to think differently. All evidence pointed to the geth never willingly returning Rannoch. THAT was the reason the quarians attacked - NOT hate.
There you go. Proof that the majority of quarians do NOT harbor hate to the geth.
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