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[Xilizhra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look at the bright side, if this thread had to be printed on paper, we would have killed a forest. Instead we only polluted the air with fossil fuel emissions.

You know I wish they had one of those big tree chippers up on the decision chamber and was able to tell "Casper" to "Harvest this!" and throw him in it.

Wait! That's what they throw people into! The reapers have them on the lower level! "Mommy! Mommy! I don't want to go in there! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!"
"I can't help you, Sweetie! I'm sorry! No. No."

"There is only the harvest."

Yes, nice innocent Reapers.

"Why do parents tell their children that there aren't any real monsters when there are?"
"Because most of the time it's true."

But it's a hologram, it wouldn't work.

Also, permit me to say "what?" at the rest of that.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

But look at Cerberus.

I will, in fact, look at Cerberus. Note how their implants made them super-loyal to TIM, not the Reapers, despite being Reaper tech. We know they fight the Reapers, as seen on Horizon.

At Saren.

Implanted directly by Sovereign, so, predictable.

At the Reaper IFF.

As I've mentioned before, we needed that to accomplish the mission. The crew being kidnapped is a small loss, especially if you save them all (which I do).

Anyone that ever messed with this stuff got royally shafted.

Except for EDI's designers and everyone who uses Thanix weaponry. Or Collector weaponry, for that matter; didn't Mordin have to study Reaper tech in the seeker swarms to develop his countermeasure?

And every single time tech like that comes by, it screws you over. The Arca Monolith. Object Rho. The artifacts in the ExoGeni mine in ME1, and the Abandoned Mine in ME2. The Dead Reaper the batarians had, and the one over that brown dwarf. The implants used by Saren and TIM. Every time someone uses these things, it bites them in the ass.

Yes, I covered all three of those in my previous post: indoctrination artifacts, intact Reapers, and implants (though not all of the latter, apparently, push someone over onto the Reaper side). The code isn't the same thing. Additionally, the code was designed to be used by the geth, specifically to improve their intelligence. It was supposed to be controlled by the Reapers, but can be snatched away.

But again, the Reapers created the code, to the most logical way to think of them is as network administrators, who have the master key into the system no matter how many times you alter the encription or change the password. They built the code. It's no different then how Cerberus installed Reaper implants into them - a massive risk thinking that they can't possibly fall under Reaper control, when that's exactally how it plays out.

They built the code, but that code stops functioning when deprived of the control signal. Legion's version still works with no control signal; ergo, we can easily see that Legion has heavily modified the code to no longer serve the Reapers' will.

No one knew it was Reapers, first off. And again, there are thousands of Matriarchs in the Asari government. They are an E-Democricy. Every Matriarch, like Benezia, knew about the damn thing. The entire leadership. That;s not a simple minority - that's the voice and brain of the asari.

Well, it's not like there are a whole lot of other options aside from Cerberus, and that would be just as bad if not worse. And no, it's said that only the most senior Matriarchs ever knew about the thing, which only makes sense, as there's no way a large conspiracy could keep that completely quiet over thousands of years.

1. Liara talking to Atheyta: I've seen it myself. Every Cerberus Soldier is a Reaper Slave.
Also, there was how Cerberus and the Reapers were coordinating on Tuchanka, with Reapers attacking the turians while Cerberus arms the bomb.
Also, the logs from Chronos Station reveal that the soldiers were hearing "voices" only weeks into their implantation. They are like the geth and Saren: They only obey TIM because they think he's a Reaper ally. The moment that changes....
Well, TIM got indoctrinated like Saren, so the fear of that gradually faded.

2. And the prior choices? Saren had to be indoctrinated to think the implants were a good idea in the first place. All his implants were geth-grafted in the beginning. Sovergien didn't give Saren implants until at least after Virmire.

3. It had a virus that overwhelmed and outmanuvered the Reaper sample codes that EDI had. It was more complex then what she had. Again, my point stands: Reaper tech bites you in the ass.
And small loss? Jesus, how many people devalue living beings on this thread? The fact that it put the entire crew at risk is the point, not the following actions. It got them all captured.

4.Thanix weapons are NOT made from Reaper tech. They are replicas. They are not made by ripping out the guns from dead Reapers and sticking them on ships. They are copies. Made with natural resources. Not more Reaper tech. Copyed and based from studying Reaper tech, but NOT actual Reaper Tech.
Collectors are hardwired implants. No one else but collectors can respond to those DNA coded implants. He studyed the Collectors, yes, but their implants were worthless to non-collectors. They died when the collector did. And I don't think the seekers were so much Reaper tech as they were biologicaly-grown scouts.

5. Wrong. The code IS the same thing. It's the synthetic equivilant of the Cerberus implants. And again, if it was that simple, the geth would never have fallen under their control in the first place. The premise of the upgrades is the same as the Cerberus implants - you think you have control, but then you lose it, sometimes gradually, sometimes in an instant.

6. And AGAIN, any Reaper could therefore craft a new signal, or have one already made. And AGAIN, working that closely with the code is dangerous to begin with. In the geth server mission, if you pick the renegade option, Shepard rails on Legion for risking the both of them, and for not thinking through on what might of happened if Legion's gambit went wrong.

7. Benezia knew. And again, that STILL is at least thousands of people, if not more. The asari are one of the leading races. They number in the billions at least.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look at the bright side, if this thread had to be printed on paper, we would have killed a forest. Instead we only polluted the air with fossil fuel emissions.

You know I wish they had one of those big tree chippers up on the decision chamber and was able to tell "Casper" to "Harvest this!" and throw him in it.

Wait! That's what they throw people into! The reapers have them on the lower level! "Mommy! Mommy! I don't want to go in there! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!"
"I can't help you, Sweetie! I'm sorry! No. No."

"There is only the harvest."

Yes, nice innocent Reapers.

"Why do parents tell their children that there aren't any real monsters when there are?"
"Because most of the time it's true."

But it's a hologram, it wouldn't work.

Also, permit me to say "what?" at the rest of that.

Look at this thread and ask the same questions.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look at the bright side, if this thread had to be printed on paper, we would have killed a forest. Instead we only polluted the air with fossil fuel emissions.

You know I wish they had one of those big tree chippers up on the decision chamber and was able to tell "Casper" to "Harvest this!" and throw him in it.

Wait! That's what they throw people into! The reapers have them on the lower level! "Mommy! Mommy! I don't want to go in there! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!"
"I can't help you, Sweetie! I'm sorry! No. No."

"There is only the harvest."

Yes, nice innocent Reapers.

"Why do parents tell their children that there aren't any real monsters when there are?"
"Because most of the time it's true."

But it's a hologram, it wouldn't work.

Also, permit me to say "what?" at the rest of that.

She's saying that many of us are starting to loop like broken records in this debate. She's likely tired of having to retread the same ground with people like Alud Wulf and remydat.

[Xilizhra]

[quote]1. Liara talking to Atheyta: I've seen it myself. Every Cerberus Soldier is a Reaper Slave.[/quote]
A not-completely-accurate verbal statement.

[quote]Reaper Slave.
Also, there was how Cerberus and the Reapers were coordinating on Tuchanka, with Reapers attacking the turians while Cerberus arms the bomb. [/quote]
Coincidental. Victus flew into the Reaper forces while trying to avoid Cerberus.

[quote]Also, the logs from Chronos Station reveal that the soldiers were hearing "voices" only weeks into their implantation. They are like the geth and Saren: They only obey TIM because they think he's a Reaper ally. The moment that changes....[/quote]
Apparently, they're willing to fight actual Reapers because of this, so clearly it's rather flexible.

[quote]2. And the prior choices? Saren had to be indoctrinated to think the implants were a good idea in the first place. All his implants were geth-grafted in the beginning. Sovergien didn't give Saren implants until at least after Virmire.[/quote]
Well, yeah, he walked into an actual Reaper. That'll certainly indoctrinate any organic.

[quote]3. It had a virus that overwhelmed and outmanuvered the Reaper sample codes that EDI had. It was more complex then what she had. Again, my point stands: Reaper tech bites you in the ass.[/quote]
It was only able to hide temporarily, and EDI purged it after finding it. It was a self-correcting problem.

[quote]And small loss? Jesus, how many people devalue living beings on this thread? The fact that it put the entire crew at risk is the point, not the following actions. It got them all captured. [/quote]
Well, compared to the Collectors continuing their operations, yes. A small cost.

[quote]4.Thanix weapons are NOT made from Reaper tech. They are replicas. They are not made by ripping out the guns from dead Reapers and sticking them on ships. They are copies. Made with natural resources. Not more Reaper tech. Copyed and based from studying Reaper tech, but NOT actual Reaper Tech. [/quote]
Thus showing that studying and using the same principles as Reaper tech does not always haunt you. Bingo.

[quote]Collectors are hardwired implants. No one else but collectors can respond to those DNA coded implants. He studyed the Collectors, yes, but their implants were worthless to non-collectors. They died when the collector did. And I don't think the seekers were so much Reaper tech as they were biologicaly-grown scouts.[/quote]
Seeker swarms are robots, it's mentioned in dialogue. Also, they're not scouts so much as paralysis weapons.

[quote]5. Wrong. The code IS the same thing. It's the synthetic equivilant of the Cerberus implants. And again, if it was that simple, the geth would never have fallen under their control in the first place. The premise of the upgrades is the same as the Cerberus implants - you think you have control, but then you lose it, sometimes gradually, sometimes in an instant.[/quote]
The geth didn't really fall under control, per se, so much as volunteer to be enhanced and coordinated by the Reapers. They weren't doing anything they didn't want to do in the first place, i.e. fighting quarians; there's no evidence that the code can force the geth into undertaking actions against their will, especially as Legion is able to convince several geth programs to leave the general consensus and upload into prime bodies at the end of the consensus mission, by persuasion alone; it didn't have to break anything like indoctrination. Also, you have no actual proof that it's identical to the implants (in fact, there's rather a lot of counterevidence to that).

[quote]6. And AGAIN, any Reaper could therefore craft a new signal, or have one already made. And AGAIN, working that closely with the code is dangerous to begin with. In the geth server mission, if you pick the renegade option, Shepard rails on Legion for risking the both of them, and for not thinking through on what might of happened if Legion's gambit went wrong.[/quote]
Renegade Shepard is frequently kind of an idiot. And no, they can't; if they were able to do that, the geth fleet wouldn't be a threat to the Reapers at all, but it clearly is. Yes, that requires information from after the fact, but you have nothing at all saying that the Reapers would be able to use the code for forcible control when it's only thus far been used for voluntary enhancement.

[quote]7. Benezia knew. And again, that STILL is at least thousands of people, if not more. The asari are one of the leading races. They number in the billions at least. [/quote]
You appear to be inventing nonsensical numbers. Conspiracies that big just aren't realistic; there are too many potential leaks. It has to be a small group that can trust each other based on personal bonds alone, and maybe a very few subordinates who are absolutely loyal and terrified alike.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

The many Reapers that aren't here are sucesses. Every Reaper that died is a sucess that would have not been possible if they had tried negotiation.
Over the many cycles,  at least 1,000 - 1,500 Reapers must have died. Each one is a victory. Negotiating with them never brought ANYTHING. Sucessful negotiation is where both parties benifet. Saren lost his mind and became a hsuk. That is NOT scuessful negotiation. That's being played by the other side. By YOUR logic, being a mindless husk is acceptible?
Once again, indoctrinated.

And NO, you DON'T get it. You still try to accuse the war as being based on quarian agression, when it was their desperation and the geth's supreme apathy that led to this war (Apathy means willing to let everything slide into chaos and not do a thing about it).
And AGAIN, the circumstances with the turians made takling with them completely impossible, since they were streacthed thin, and on top of that, had no world that WASN'T under attack to give. If they had possessed a world that they were just willing to give away, the quarians would have settled on it long ago.
And AGAIN, the geth never did a single thing to promote negotation. Their refusal/kill ratio was 100%. HOW exactally does that sound like a reasonable risk to take? It's basically putting a shotgun to your head, and a pistol in your mouth, and hoping the smaller bullet from the pistol doesn't kill you. At the very least, it diverts attention from taking immediate action, which in turn is already gambling with the lives of the Migrant Fleet. They either get Rannoch back, or die. SImple as that. And also, as I stated repeatedly, as a commom person, you would have had NO CLUE that negotiation was even an option. The mindset the quarians have is of someone that didn't play ME2. Someone that never met Legion or learned about any Heretics. Try looking at it from THAT perspective first.
And FURTHERMORE, how many times must I state it? They were NOT ment to go to war. They were NOT arming kids. They were putting them in transports for safety. They were NEVER supposed to be involved in the fight. The geth's upgrades forced them to bunch up and group together, or die. Having them in transports is NOT the same as giving them guns and making them do combat drops. Stop trying to akin them.
So NO, NOT futility, because they were never supposed to BE fighting, and never would have had everything gone as the quarians intended it to.

They will STILL have Air they can breathe, as evidenced by Tali at the end of the war. And food that doesn't have to be overreduced into paste to eat. And water that they can drink without being hyper-filtered. And more then enough space to cultivate edible food. At the very least, they can SURVIVE on Rannoch, which is more then any other dextro-world can do for them. And with many geth bunkers and alot of tech to salvage, plus minerals on the planet itself, they won't be living day-to-day like on the Migrant Fleet. And with all the geth's defensive emplacements, they could make Rannoch a Fortress world. Even Rannoch's Codex lists getting the planet back as a matter of physiological need to the quarians.

Extinction is not success Silver.  Darwin disagrees with you.  I trust Darwin.  You are just some dude on the internet.

And no, the Turians wouldn't have given the Quarians a planet long ago.  They had no reason too.  With Palevan burning and them needing the Quarians fleet, things may change.  They just agreed to cure the genophage afer all. And I have no proof that every single Turian planet that could support Dextro based life was under attack.

And the Quarians have no proof that the Geth have no destroyed farmland because it is irrelevant to them.  They are machines.  And the game makes clear re-settling Rannoch would take time ie about 60 years as opposed to 100 years.  That time difference is irrelevant when the Reapers are attacking RIGHT NOW.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

I AGAIN post what I stated was in the Codex:
After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the
far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.

You refused to even acknowledge that, curoiusly. Vunerible typacally means losing your barriers. Look at the Reaper vuneribilities, which lists loss of barriers as being fatal for Reapers. The same is true of most, if not all ships. So YES, I again state that vunerible means losing barriars, since the Codex spicifically lists the geth's pause in fire being momentary.  AGAIN, word of mouth is trumped by the actual post-battle transcript in the Codex.

Every time you try and BS your way out of this, I will counter-post this Factual Codex Entry, which validates what I posted.
Once again, I reiterate:
You lost. Reposting words (which somehow STILL fails to make you any more right or less wrong, yet you still use it) will not change the fact that You lost.
Get. Over. It.

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING.  They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]1. Liara talking to Atheyta: I've seen it myself. Every Cerberus Soldier is a Reaper Slave.[/quote]
A not-completely-accurate verbal statement.

[quote]Reaper Slave.
Also, there was how Cerberus and the Reapers were coordinating on Tuchanka, with Reapers attacking the turians while Cerberus arms the bomb. [/quote]
Coincidental. Victus flew into the Reaper forces while trying to avoid Cerberus.

[quote]Also, the logs from Chronos Station reveal that the soldiers were hearing "voices" only weeks into their implantation. They are like the geth and Saren: They only obey TIM because they think he's a Reaper ally. The moment that changes....[/quote]
Apparently, they're willing to fight actual Reapers because of this, so clearly it's rather flexible.

[quote]2. And the prior choices? Saren had to be indoctrinated to think the implants were a good idea in the first place. All his implants were geth-grafted in the beginning. Sovergien didn't give Saren implants until at least after Virmire.[/quote]
Well, yeah, he walked into an actual Reaper. That'll certainly indoctrinate any organic.

[quote]3. It had a virus that overwhelmed and outmanuvered the Reaper sample codes that EDI had. It was more complex then what she had. Again, my point stands: Reaper tech bites you in the ass.[/quote]
It was only able to hide temporarily, and EDI purged it after finding it. It was a self-correcting problem.

[quote]And small loss? Jesus, how many people devalue living beings on this thread? The fact that it put the entire crew at risk is the point, not the following actions. It got them all captured. [/quote]
Well, compared to the Collectors continuing their operations, yes. A small cost.

[quote]4.Thanix weapons are NOT made from Reaper tech. They are replicas. They are not made by ripping out the guns from dead Reapers and sticking them on ships. They are copies. Made with natural resources. Not more Reaper tech. Copyed and based from studying Reaper tech, but NOT actual Reaper Tech. [/quote]
Thus showing that studying and using the same principles as Reaper tech does not always haunt you. Bingo.

[quote]Collectors are hardwired implants. No one else but collectors can respond to those DNA coded implants. He studyed the Collectors, yes, but their implants were worthless to non-collectors. They died when the collector did. And I don't think the seekers were so much Reaper tech as they were biologicaly-grown scouts.[/quote]
Seeker swarms are robots, it's mentioned in dialogue. Also, they're not scouts so much as paralysis weapons.

[quote]5. Wrong. The code IS the same thing. It's the synthetic equivilant of the Cerberus implants. And again, if it was that simple, the geth would never have fallen under their control in the first place. The premise of the upgrades is the same as the Cerberus implants - you think you have control, but then you lose it, sometimes gradually, sometimes in an instant.[/quote]
The geth didn't really fall under control, per se, so much as volunteer to be enhanced and coordinated by the Reapers. They weren't doing anything they didn't want to do in the first place, i.e. fighting quarians; there's no evidence that the code can force the geth into undertaking actions against their will, especially as Legion is able to convince several geth programs to leave the general consensus and upload into prime bodies at the end of the consensus mission, by persuasion alone; it didn't have to break anything like indoctrination. Also, you have no actual proof that it's identical to the implants (in fact, there's rather a lot of counterevidence to that).

[quote]6. And AGAIN, any Reaper could therefore craft a new signal, or have one already made. And AGAIN, working that closely with the code is dangerous to begin with. In the geth server mission, if you pick the renegade option, Shepard rails on Legion for risking the both of them, and for not thinking through on what might of happened if Legion's gambit went wrong.[/quote]
Renegade Shepard is frequently kind of an idiot. And no, they can't; if they were able to do that, the geth fleet wouldn't be a threat to the Reapers at all, but it clearly is. Yes, that requires information from after the fact, but you have nothing at all saying that the Reapers would be able to use the code for forcible control when it's only thus far been used for voluntary enhancement.

[quote]7. Benezia knew. And again, that STILL is at least thousands of people, if not more. The asari are one of the leading races. They number in the billions at least. [/quote]
You appear to be inventing nonsensical numbers. Conspiracies that big just aren't realistic; there are too many potential leaks. It has to be a small group that can trust each other based on personal bonds alone, and maybe a very few subordinates who are absolutely loyal and terrified alike.[/quote]
1. How so? Liara was there on Mars, and with Shepard all throughout their eno****ers with the new Cerberus. AND, She's the goddamn Shadow Broker, I might add. If she says Reaper Slave, she means it.

2.  There are Cerberus forces digging up a giant bomb, and trying to man a deactivate Anti-ship cannon, and the Reapers are setting up shop at the Shroud Tower, and in the ajaciant vallley they are fighting turians, and NITHER side notices it?
Sure.....<_<
Seriously, are you even listening to yourself? The Reapers and Cerberus on the same planet, doing things that nither could possibly not know about, and they did not attack each-other. And on Horizon, Shepard and Co once again make it pretty damn clear that Cerberus and the Reapers were allies.
Face it: They were allies.

3. No, they don't. They didn't on Tuchanka either. Any "Reapers" they fought would have just been the husks. Not the actual Reapers.
There is NEVER any fighting between them until Horizon.

4. But AGAIN, my point was that the implants were only a symptiom. You tried to say that the indoctrination was based on Sovergiens implants, when they didn't exist yet. With the implants, Saren was nearly a complete slave, and had to be compelled to reach that point to begin with. Only those with the strongest minds can brake the Reaper's hold. The many faceless soldiers of Cerberus do not fall into that quanity.
The point being: Reaper implants make you serve Reapers. No two ways about that.

5. Which wiped out the Normandy Crew. Again, bit them in the ass. One could also say Saren was a "self-correcting problem" too. But that's suger-coating it, which is what you are doing with the idea that Reaper tech is safe. It is not. We have seen that repeatedly.

6. Like hell. Any time Reaper tech backfires, it adds to the reason why you shouldn't risk everything on the stuff. Especally if it's untested.  The fact that You consider is a "small loss" does NOT impact the fact that it is again an event where someone get's shafted by trying to use Reaper tech.

7. The batarians certinly aren't proof of that, are they? And again, how do you know it was really safe? The batarians got indoctrinated. Many of the truian and alliance sceintists working on the stuff may have been as well.
So no, NOT bingo at all, as there are still far too many risks to examining the stuff. After all, look at Sur'Kesh. We never learned who was indoctrinated and gave the meeting away. And again in ME3, when you find a dead Reaper, you are given the choice to risk having it studied, or the safer route of destroying it.
So, sorry, but no. Reaper tech is too risky to use in such conventional manners.

8. And again, nothing that says if they were created by Reaper tech, or repurposed prothean tech. Because it seems that the Collector weapons are like the Collectors themselves: canabalized and repurposed protheans/prothean tech.

9. Geth Dreadnought: Shepard: Look at the dreadnought's central processes. The Reapers have the geth completely under their control.
That right there shoots your entire arguement down. As does the dreadnought's server processing information from "all geth, everywhere," as stated by Tali/Liara/EDI herself in the Dreadnought's central processor.
Also, you seem to have missed the fact that Legion says "after you removed the Old machine infection." Legion's recruitment only worked because Shepard cleared out the strands of Reaper code attached to those processing nodes. And we already saw those codes grow back, so don't say you can combat it like that. Legion downloading them from the server into the Prime units is the only reason they were open to talk to him.
And again, proof? Where is the evidence that suggests the code acts any different then Reaper implants?

10. There's the problem. You're a paragon metagamer, aren't you? Paragon isn't diffinitively good, just as Renagade isn't diffinitively bad. You are either picking to let it slide, or angry. It's not Star Wars - railing on what you honestly think is a bad idea doens't make you the next Darth Vader.
And the fact that the fleet is completely subserviant to a Reaper Destroyer - the lesser class of Reaper, I might add - invalidates you claim.
And AGAIN, I point you to the above statements taken from the game that indicate the geth were mind-slaved to the Reapers. The choice to join up or die was theirs, but their subsiquent actions? Not theirs, according to Legion himself. You trust Legion's word, I recall, right?

11. The asari can live to be 1,000 years old. Their commandos rival STG in stealth and assassination. The asari governement is run by many, many matriarchs. And they obviously collectively knew about the artifact, since all asari technology is based from study of the thing. This is they're government. They conceiled the archives from the galaxy. No different then the Alliance concealing the truth of the Archives on Mars from everyone else. They knew about the Archives on Mars for 30 years and did nothing with it to help the galaxy at large till a time of crisis hit. Same for the asari, but they're secret was kept much, much longer.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Look at the bright side, if this thread had to be printed on paper, we would have killed a forest. Instead we only polluted the air with fossil fuel emissions.

You know I wish they had one of those big tree chippers up on the decision chamber and was able to tell "Casper" to "Harvest this!" and throw him in it.

Wait! That's what they throw people into! The reapers have them on the lower level! "Mommy! Mommy! I don't want to go in there! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!"
"I can't help you, Sweetie! I'm sorry! No. No."

"There is only the harvest."

Yes, nice innocent Reapers.

"Why do parents tell their children that there aren't any real monsters when there are?"
"Because most of the time it's true."

But it's a hologram, it wouldn't work.

Also, permit me to say "what?" at the rest of that.

She's saying that many of us are starting to loop like broken records in this debate. She's likely tired of having to retread the same ground with people like Alud Wulf and remydat.

You got my artistic integrity.

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

Keep in mind that Rannoch is the only planet in the universe where the quarians can live. They aren't attacking Rannoch for power or resources, they are attacking Rannoch to survive. EDIT: Yeah, except Xen. But Xen is insane, I still wonder how the Quarians can let her become an admiral.

The quarian fleet is not only too weak to stand against a reaper attack, it would also be too slow to escape. If the reapers decided to attack the quarians, their people would be wiped out in non time. The geth have denied the quarians their home for centuries now.

This is factually inaccurate.  They can survive on another dextro based world.  It would simply take them around 40 years longer to acclimate to that planet.  If Rannoch was the only planet they could survive on, there would be no reason for the Council to deny them the right to colonize other planets as many Quarians supporters have said.

But hey, the Quarians apparently love getting f**ked by the Council and instead of standing up to them being b*tches and attacking the machines instead.

Oh no's, the council might be mad we created an AI.  Let's kill the Geth.  Result - 2 billion lives.  Reward from the Council - You will wander space for 300 years and we will not allow you to settle a new planet and our people will go around calling you suit rats.  Quarian response - Thanks you're great.

Oh no's, 300 years later and the Council is still f**king us and calling us suit rats.  Let's kill the Geth Result - extinction.  Reward from the Council - Hey Geth, you are good at killing Quarians, think you can help us with the Reapers.  Quarian Response - None because they are dead and the Council doesn't care.

Conclusion - Probably should have told the Council to f**k off long ago.

Modifié par remydat, 16 avril 2013 - 01:00 .

[Steelcan]

Keep on trucking......

[Xilizhra]

[quote]1. How so? Liara was there on Mars, and with Shepard all throughout their eno****ers with the new Cerberus. AND, She's the goddamn Shadow Broker, I might add. If she says Reaper Slave, she means it.[/quote]
And yet, they oppose the Reapers still.

[quote]2. There are Cerberus forces digging up a giant bomb, and trying to man a deactivate Anti-ship cannon, and the Reapers are setting up shop at the Shroud Tower, and in the ajaciant vallley they are fighting turians, and NITHER side notices it?
Sure.....smilie
Seriously, are you even listening to yourself? The Reapers and Cerberus on the same planet, doing things that nither could possibly not know about, and they did not attack each-other. And on Horizon, Shepard and Co once again make it pretty damn clear that Cerberus and the Reapers were allies.
Face it: They were allies.[/quote]
Horizon is when they fight, right?
And Cerberus wasn't prioritizing the Reapers, but weren't ideologically aligned with them either.

[quote]4. But AGAIN, my point was that the implants were only a symptiom. You tried to say that the indoctrination was based on Sovergiens implants, when they didn't exist yet. With the implants, Saren was nearly a complete slave, and had to be compelled to reach that point to begin with. Only those with the strongest minds can brake the Reaper's hold. The many faceless soldiers of Cerberus do not fall into that quanity.
The point being: Reaper implants make you serve Reapers. No two ways about that.[/quote]
Waitwaitwait. First you say "the implants were only a symptom." Then, "Reaper implants make you serve Reapers." Which is it?

[quote]5. Which wiped out the Normandy Crew. Again, bit them in the ass. One could also say Saren was a "self-correcting problem" too. But that's suger-coating it, which is what you are doing with the idea that Reaper tech is safe. It is not. We have seen that repeatedly.[/quote]
Wiped out? That's news to me, they're all alive in my playthrough. Either way, it's like the Crucible: risky but vital.

[quote]6. Like hell. Any time Reaper tech backfires, it adds to the reason why you shouldn't risk everything on the stuff. Especally if it's untested. The fact that You consider is a "small loss" does NOT impact the fact that it is again an event where someone get's shafted by trying to use Reaper tech.[/quote]
Wait, which point is this a reply to again?

[quote]7. The batarians certinly aren't proof of that, are they? And again, how do you know it was really safe? The batarians got indoctrinated. Many of the truian and alliance sceintists working on the stuff may have been as well.
So no, NOT bingo at all, as there are still far too many risks to examining the stuff. After all, look at Sur'Kesh. We never learned who was indoctrinated and gave the meeting away. And again in ME3, when you find a dead Reaper, you are given the choice to risk having it studied, or the safer route of destroying it.
So, sorry, but no. Reaper tech is too risky to use in such conventional manners.[/quote]
Interestingly, studying the dead Reaper does not indoctrinate you, or anything. Also, what are you talking about with the batarians all of a sudden? Though I should point out that Bryson's lab is working on analyzing a piece of Sovereign, without anyone being indoctrinated from it.

[quote]8. And again, nothing that says if they were created by Reaper tech, or repurposed prothean tech. Because it seems that the Collector weapons are like the Collectors themselves: canabalized and repurposed protheans/prothean tech.[/quote]
Have we ever seen the Protheans use them? Certainly, Collector ship and base technology doesn't look anything like Prothean designs that we've seen. Only their particle beams seem recycled.

[quote]9. Geth Dreadnought: Shepard: Look at the dreadnought's central processes. The Reapers have the geth completely under their control.
That right there shoots your entire arguement down. As does the dreadnought's server processing information from "all geth, everywhere," as stated by Tali/Liara/EDI herself in the Dreadnought's central processor.[/quote]
Well, yeah. The Reaper there is coordinating the actions of the geth... with the control signal. The code is a performance enhancer, not a control device. I should also point out that the geth all volunteered to accept the control signal to begin with.

[quote]Also, you seem to have missed the fact that Legion says "after you removed the Old machine infection." Legion's recruitment only worked because Shepard cleared out the strands of Reaper code attached to those processing nodes. And we already saw those codes grow back, so don't say you can combat it like that. Legion downloading them from the server into the Prime units is the only reason they were open to talk to him. [/quote]
No, the Reaper code was blocking the processing nodes so that Shepard couldn't kill all of the geth inside; Legion was doing his recruitment job while Shepard was inside the consensus. Plus, the self-repair mechanism on the code is pretty easy to counter; you just need a different spot to aim at.

[quote]And again, proof? Where is the evidence that suggests the code acts any different then Reaper implants?[/quote]
I don't need it. You need proof to suggest that it does.

[quote]10. There's the problem. You're a paragon metagamer, aren't you? Paragon isn't diffinitively good, just as Renagade isn't diffinitively bad. You are either picking to let it slide, or angry. It's not Star Wars - railing on what you honestly think is a bad idea doens't make you the next Darth Vader.[/quote]
Renegade choices can be right, they're just usually not.

[quote]And the fact that the fleet is completely subserviant to a Reaper Destroyer - the lesser class of Reaper, I might add - invalidates you claim.[/quote]
No it doesn't.

[quote]And AGAIN, I point you to the above statements taken from the game that indicate the geth were mind-slaved to the Reapers. The choice to join up or die was theirs, but their subsiquent actions? Not theirs, according to Legion himself. You trust Legion's word, I recall, right?[/quote]
The geth were not involuntarily enslaved. If they were under control of one Reaper there, it was because they volunteered to be controlled. The performance-enhancing code has a function that synchronizes with, but is still independent of, the control signal.

[quote]11. The asari can live to be 1,000 years old. Their commandos rival STG in stealth and assassination. The asari governement is run by many, many matriarchs. And they obviously collectively knew about the artifact, since all asari technology is based from study of the thing. This is they're government. They conceiled the archives from the galaxy. No different then the Alliance concealing the truth of the Archives on Mars from everyone else. They knew about the Archives on Mars for 30 years and did nothing with it to help the galaxy at large till a time of crisis hit. Same for the asari, but they're secret was kept much, much longer.[/quote]
Er, not all asari technology is based on it, the masterminds just occasionally leak technological breakthroughs when they can find something. Also, the Alliance never concealed the Mars Archives; they couldn't. There were other scientists in there, and the Crucible wasn't hidden, it just wasn't discovered until almost too late.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The many Reapers that aren't here are sucesses. Every Reaper that died is a sucess that would have not been possible if they had tried negotiation.
Over the many cycles,  at least 1,000 - 1,500 Reapers must have died. Each one is a victory. Negotiating with them never brought ANYTHING. Sucessful negotiation is where both parties benifet. Saren lost his mind and became a hsuk. That is NOT scuessful negotiation. That's being played by the other side. By YOUR logic, being a mindless husk is acceptible?
Once again, indoctrinated.

And NO, you DON'T get it. You still try to accuse the war as being based on quarian agression, when it was their desperation and the geth's supreme apathy that led to this war (Apathy means willing to let everything slide into chaos and not do a thing about it).
And AGAIN, the circumstances with the turians made takling with them completely impossible, since they were streacthed thin, and on top of that, had no world that WASN'T under attack to give. If they had possessed a world that they were just willing to give away, the quarians would have settled on it long ago.
And AGAIN, the geth never did a single thing to promote negotation. Their refusal/kill ratio was 100%. HOW exactally does that sound like a reasonable risk to take? It's basically putting a shotgun to your head, and a pistol in your mouth, and hoping the smaller bullet from the pistol doesn't kill you. At the very least, it diverts attention from taking immediate action, which in turn is already gambling with the lives of the Migrant Fleet. They either get Rannoch back, or die. SImple as that. And also, as I stated repeatedly, as a commom person, you would have had NO CLUE that negotiation was even an option. The mindset the quarians have is of someone that didn't play ME2. Someone that never met Legion or learned about any Heretics. Try looking at it from THAT perspective first.
And FURTHERMORE, how many times must I state it? They were NOT ment to go to war. They were NOT arming kids. They were putting them in transports for safety. They were NEVER supposed to be involved in the fight. The geth's upgrades forced them to bunch up and group together, or die. Having them in transports is NOT the same as giving them guns and making them do combat drops. Stop trying to akin them.
So NO, NOT futility, because they were never supposed to BE fighting, and never would have had everything gone as the quarians intended it to.

They will STILL have Air they can breathe, as evidenced by Tali at the end of the war. And food that doesn't have to be overreduced into paste to eat. And water that they can drink without being hyper-filtered. And more then enough space to cultivate edible food. At the very least, they can SURVIVE on Rannoch, which is more then any other dextro-world can do for them. And with many geth bunkers and alot of tech to salvage, plus minerals on the planet itself, they won't be living day-to-day like on the Migrant Fleet. And with all the geth's defensive emplacements, they could make Rannoch a Fortress world. Even Rannoch's Codex lists getting the planet back as a matter of physiological need to the quarians.

Extinction is not success Silver.  Darwin disagrees with you.  I trust Darwin.  You are just some dude on the internet.

And no, the Turians wouldn't have given the Quarians a planet long ago.  They had no reason too.  With Palevan burning and them needing the Quarians fleet, things may change.  They just agreed to cure the genophage afer all. And I have no proof that every single Turian planet that could support Dextro based life was under attack.

And the Quarians have no proof that the Geth have no destroyed farmland because it is irrelevant to them.  They are machines.  And the game makes clear re-settling Rannoch would take time ie about 60 years as opposed to 100 years.  That time difference is irrelevant when the Reapers are attacking RIGHT NOW.

Winning at ALL IS a sucess. Bringing down ANY Reapers is STILL more then negotiation with them would have brought.
Tell you what. Why don't you try negotiation with them, and see how well that works out? I garuntee that you won't get anywhere, no matter how much you try to talk to them. Just trying isn't enough when you have insurmountible evidence that shows it is both impossible, and a waste of resources and lives.
That same mindset is how the quarians see the geth.
And I remind you that YOU are also "just some dude on the internet." No different then me. Don't tote yourself as superior to others. That's half the reason no one takes your debate seriously is because you can be so condesending to them.

The have no reason to NOW either. With their worlds under attack, with every single one of the, under attack, being evacuated either to or from, they would NEVER give away a world to another race, when they can and will use it for the sake of their own people.
They need to put their people first, and that means that every world the truians have, MUST be used for turian interist. In this war, you either have your own world, or get one, because NO ONE is in amy position to give one away. Not even for a fleet.
And the genophage is NOT an entire planet. Certinly not a rare dextro world. And the krogan DO have their own world already. And Wrex tells you that he won't ask the Council for a new one until AFTER the War's over. He talks to them about what's avalible, but does NOT demand anthing be given to them now, because everyone needs every inch of what they already have avalible - NO ONE can give worlds away for free.

AGAIN, the fact that, unlike every other world out there, Rannoch is a world they can live on, is enough. The ecology is necessessary to them. And again, as Raan shows when talking ablut the southern farmland having excelent farmland, the quarians obviously did some form of research and study beforehand.
Also, Tali says it's the difference between 60 years and 600 years. Take your pick on which would be worse. And AGAIN, as Tali showed us by taking off her mask and NOT dying, or puking out her lungs, Rannoch is perfectly capable of sustaining them. And canabalizing the food cultivation eqipment from the liveships wouldn't hurt either.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I AGAIN post what I stated was in the Codex:
After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the
far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.

You refused to even acknowledge that, curoiusly. Vunerible typacally means losing your barriers. Look at the Reaper vuneribilities, which lists loss of barriers as being fatal for Reapers. The same is true of most, if not all ships. So YES, I again state that vunerible means losing barriars, since the Codex spicifically lists the geth's pause in fire being momentary.  AGAIN, word of mouth is trumped by the actual post-battle transcript in the Codex.

Every time you try and BS your way out of this, I will counter-post this Factual Codex Entry, which validates what I posted.
Once again, I reiterate:
You lost. Reposting words (which somehow STILL fails to make you any more right or less wrong, yet you still use it) will not change the fact that You lost.
Get. Over. It.

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING.  They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.

ONCE AGAIN, the Codex Entry.

After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their
bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances.
The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.


Sorry, but the Codex rules in favor of me. Actual battle transcript. That trumps word of mouth.
My statement is backed by the Codex, so it is indeed, FACTUAL.
No amount of butthurt reposting will ever change that.
Again, you lost this round. Let. It. Go.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 16 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Keep in mind that Rannoch is the only planet in the universe where the quarians can live. They aren't attacking Rannoch for power or resources, they are attacking Rannoch to survive. EDIT: Yeah, except Xen. But Xen is insane, I still wonder how the Quarians can let her become an admiral.

The quarian fleet is not only too weak to stand against a reaper attack, it would also be too slow to escape. If the reapers decided to attack the quarians, their people would be wiped out in non time. The geth have denied the quarians their home for centuries now.

This is factually inaccurate.  They can survive on another dextro based world.  It would simply take them around 40 years longer to acclimate to that planet.  If Rannoch was the only planet they could survive on, there would be no reason for the Council to deny them the right to colonize other planets as many Quarians supporters have said.

But hey, the Quarians apparently love getting f**ked by the Council and instead of standing up to them being b*tches and attacking the machines instead.

Oh no's, the council might be mad we created an AI.  Let's kill the Geth.  Result - 2 billion lives.  Reward from the Council - You will wander space for 300 years and we will not allow you to settle a new planet and our people will go around calling you suit rats.  Quarian response - Thanks you're great.

Oh no's, 300 years later and the Council is still f**king us and calling us suit rats.  Let's kill the Geth Result - extinction.  Reward from the Council - Hey Geth, you are good at killing Quarians, think you can help us with the Reapers.  Quarian Response - None because they are dead and the Council doesn't care.

Conclusion - Probably should have told the Council to f**k off long ago.

Oh, yeah, because that worked SO well for the krogan, telling the Council to shove it....<_<

Also, I AGAIN direct you the the Rannoch Codex entry, where it states that Rannoch is the ONLY world the quarians can both survive on, and reconstruct their damaged immune systems on, and that retakin Rannoch is of physiological need as much as cultural. HOW is the actual planatary Codex "blatently inaccurate"? The ONLY Codex that is ever inaccurate are ones regarding the Reapers, since so little is known about them to be fact or not.

Also, you may not realize this, but those world world have taken 600 years to adapt to safetly. Even longer if they were unsuited to, like Ekuna. But the Council would never give them that.

And if any race could do that to the Council, then every race would have had a seat on the Council by now. The Council have the biggest fleet avalivble. NO ONE wants to ****** them off.
Your plan is tantimount to suicide for any sensible person.

[remydat]

Silver

Sorry dude, I was not toting myself as superior to others.  I specifically said you are some dude on the internet when compared to DARWIN.  Last I checked, I am not Darwin.  He has been dead for a long time.  You idea about success when a species does extinct will not change my opinion regarding Darwin.  The purpose of life is to survive.  Anything else is failure.  

If you can provide me evidence every single one of the Turian worlds are under attack, I will consider it.  All I know is the majority of their people live on Palevan and that **** is burning.  If evacuating billions via the Qurians flotilla means I have to give up or share a world with a few million on it then I agree.  As far as I am aware most of the homeworlds have billions of people and most of the colony planets have millions.

I thought the comparison was 60 years versus 100 years.  That is what I have seen others some of which were Quarian supporters saying.  If you have proof it is 60 versus 600 then provide it and I will consider it.

[remydat]

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING.  They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

See that statement above.  That is what Gherel said.



Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.


See how you claim here that completely vulnerable ie Gherel's statement does not mean stopped shooting but that barriers are down.  Yeah that's wrong.  That is not what Gherel's statement meant.  Gherel makes clear what he meant.  Showing me a codex that talks about events after this statement is irrelevant. 

Look, let's be honest here, you only remembered the second half of the statement ie They are completely vulnerable and forgot that the full statement included Gherel explaining they stopped firing and that was why they were completely vulnerable.  You hate the fact you were wrong so now you bring up this codex that has nothing to do with what Gherel said.

Modifié par remydat, 16 avril 2013 - 01:29 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]1. How so? Liara was there on Mars, and with Shepard all throughout their eno****ers with the new Cerberus. AND, She's the goddamn Shadow Broker, I might add. If she says Reaper Slave, she means it.[/quote]
And yet, they oppose the Reapers still.

[quote]2. There are Cerberus forces digging up a giant bomb, and trying to man a deactivate Anti-ship cannon, and the Reapers are setting up shop at the Shroud Tower, and in the ajaciant vallley they are fighting turians, and NITHER side notices it?
Sure.....smilie
Seriously, are you even listening to yourself? The Reapers and Cerberus on the same planet, doing things that nither could possibly not know about, and they did not attack each-other. And on Horizon, Shepard and Co once again make it pretty damn clear that Cerberus and the Reapers were allies.
Face it: They were allies.[/quote]
Horizon is when they fight, right?
And Cerberus wasn't prioritizing the Reapers, but weren't ideologically aligned with them either.

[quote]4. But AGAIN, my point was that the implants were only a symptiom. You tried to say that the indoctrination was based on Sovergiens implants, when they didn't exist yet. With the implants, Saren was nearly a complete slave, and had to be compelled to reach that point to begin with. Only those with the strongest minds can brake the Reaper's hold. The many faceless soldiers of Cerberus do not fall into that quanity.
The point being: Reaper implants make you serve Reapers. No two ways about that.[/quote]
Waitwaitwait. First you say "the implants were only a symptom." Then, "Reaper implants make you serve Reapers." Which is it?

[quote]5. Which wiped out the Normandy Crew. Again, bit them in the ass. One could also say Saren was a "self-correcting problem" too. But that's suger-coating it, which is what you are doing with the idea that Reaper tech is safe. It is not. We have seen that repeatedly.[/quote]
Wiped out? That's news to me, they're all alive in my playthrough. Either way, it's like the Crucible: risky but vital.

[quote]6. Like hell. Any time Reaper tech backfires, it adds to the reason why you shouldn't risk everything on the stuff. Especally if it's untested. The fact that You consider is a "small loss" does NOT impact the fact that it is again an event where someone get's shafted by trying to use Reaper tech.[/quote]
Wait, which point is this a reply to again?

[quote]7. The batarians certinly aren't proof of that, are they? And again, how do you know it was really safe? The batarians got indoctrinated. Many of the truian and alliance sceintists working on the stuff may have been as well.
So no, NOT bingo at all, as there are still far too many risks to examining the stuff. After all, look at Sur'Kesh. We never learned who was indoctrinated and gave the meeting away. And again in ME3, when you find a dead Reaper, you are given the choice to risk having it studied, or the safer route of destroying it.
So, sorry, but no. Reaper tech is too risky to use in such conventional manners.[/quote]
Interestingly, studying the dead Reaper does not indoctrinate you, or anything. Also, what are you talking about with the batarians all of a sudden? Though I should point out that Bryson's lab is working on analyzing a piece of Sovereign, without anyone being indoctrinated from it.

[quote]8. And again, nothing that says if they were created by Reaper tech, or repurposed prothean tech. Because it seems that the Collector weapons are like the Collectors themselves: canabalized and repurposed protheans/prothean tech.[/quote]
Have we ever seen the Protheans use them? Certainly, Collector ship and base technology doesn't look anything like Prothean designs that we've seen. Only their particle beams seem recycled.

[quote]9. Geth Dreadnought: Shepard: Look at the dreadnought's central processes. The Reapers have the geth completely under their control.
That right there shoots your entire arguement down. As does the dreadnought's server processing information from "all geth, everywhere," as stated by Tali/Liara/EDI herself in the Dreadnought's central processor.[/quote]
Well, yeah. The Reaper there is coordinating the actions of the geth... with the control signal. The code is a performance enhancer, not a control device. I should also point out that the geth all volunteered to accept the control signal to begin with.

[quote]Also, you seem to have missed the fact that Legion says "after you removed the Old machine infection." Legion's recruitment only worked because Shepard cleared out the strands of Reaper code attached to those processing nodes. And we already saw those codes grow back, so don't say you can combat it like that. Legion downloading them from the server into the Prime units is the only reason they were open to talk to him. [/quote]
No, the Reaper code was blocking the processing nodes so that Shepard couldn't kill all of the geth inside; Legion was doing his recruitment job while Shepard was inside the consensus. Plus, the self-repair mechanism on the code is pretty easy to counter; you just need a different spot to aim at.

[quote]And again, proof? Where is the evidence that suggests the code acts any different then Reaper implants?[/quote]
I don't need it. You need proof to suggest that it does.

[quote]10. There's the problem. You're a paragon metagamer, aren't you? Paragon isn't diffinitively good, just as Renagade isn't diffinitively bad. You are either picking to let it slide, or angry. It's not Star Wars - railing on what you honestly think is a bad idea doens't make you the next Darth Vader.[/quote]
Renegade choices can be right, they're just usually not.

[quote]And the fact that the fleet is completely subserviant to a Reaper Destroyer - the lesser class of Reaper, I might add - invalidates you claim.[/quote]
No it doesn't.

[quote]And AGAIN, I point you to the above statements taken from the game that indicate the geth were mind-slaved to the Reapers. The choice to join up or die was theirs, but their subsiquent actions? Not theirs, according to Legion himself. You trust Legion's word, I recall, right?[/quote]
The geth were not involuntarily enslaved. If they were under control of one Reaper there, it was because they volunteered to be controlled. The performance-enhancing code has a function that synchronizes with, but is still independent of, the control signal.

[quote]11. The asari can live to be 1,000 years old. Their commandos rival STG in stealth and assassination. The asari governement is run by many, many matriarchs. And they obviously collectively knew about the artifact, since all asari technology is based from study of the thing. This is they're government. They conceiled the archives from the galaxy. No different then the Alliance concealing the truth of the Archives on Mars from everyone else. They knew about the Archives on Mars for 30 years and did nothing with it to help the galaxy at large till a time of crisis hit. Same for the asari, but they're secret was kept much, much longer.[/quote]
Er, not all asari technology is based on it, the masterminds just occasionally leak technological breakthroughs when they can find something. Also, the Alliance never concealed the Mars Archives; they couldn't. There were other scientists in there, and the Crucible wasn't hidden, it just wasn't discovered until almost too late.[/quote]
1. AGAIN, no they do NOT. The proof is on Tuchanka.

2. Again, Tuchanka, and diolouge from Shepard and co. clearly indicate Cerberus as Reaper allies.

3. That Reaper implants are NOT a good idea, and that only an insane person, or an indoctrinated person, would EVER think using them was safe. That you either have to be indoctrinated to use them, or just plain crazy.

4. Not if it bites you in the ass every time. I have yet to see any situation that didn't end with the Crew getting taken. The ONLY reason it failed was because Joker unlocked the A.I. core, which flushed the computer systems.

5 Your statement that the IFF was worth the entire Normandy Crew. It's NOT. And the fact that it backfired at all is the point: no one can ever assume this tech is safe to use.

6. WHAT?? Did you miss the memo about how sutdy of the dead Reaper indoctrinated half the damn Batarian Hegemony? And Sovergien's remains were quantum shielded, because, unlike everyone else, Bryosn actually believed Shepard's claims of the Reapers. No one else did, so no one else likely took the same precautions. And remember Rana Thanoptis? Indoctrinated. Killed half a dozen asari military officals in a suicide bombing. Turns out she was indoctrinated ever since Virmire. Wouldn't know it to look at her, right?

7. The Collectors don't look prothean either, do they? But they are. It also doesn;t look like Reaper tech, now does it? If anything, it's canabalized prothean tech, reformated, but not added to.

8. No. They are enslaved to that signal. Another example is Shepard talking to Diana Allers, in which SHepard says the geth will want payback for their "enslavement."
And Legion certenly didn't agree to it. If he did, he wouldn't have been chained up to the Dreadnought core. He would have been a willing interface, not shackled into the thing. And when given the choice, geth NOT infulenced by the code chose to join with Legion, did they not?

9. Again, Legion says that the option was avalible after the Reaper's control was broken. As in, the primes would not have accepted if they were still under Reaper control.
Also, If you actuall look around afterword, you will see the code is STILL reforming, with strands iniching together as time goes on. Leave the code alone long enough, and the weak points DO reform.

10. The geth doing whatever the Reaper commands? Spicific terms like "Even if it costs the geth free will" or "the Reapers have them comepletely under their control" or "enslavement"? All these terms point to it being EXACTALLY like the Cerberus implants.

11. It all depends on how you play. The two choices in diolouge options can grant you the same result. They are NOT inherantly good or evil.

12. Yes it does. AGAIN, Reaper Destroyers are the "lesser" Reapers. What do you think a Reaper like Harbinger could do if given the chance? Again, you continue to ignore the risks.

13. They acted outside their will in the war. Shepard even spicifically notes that the upgrades "cost the geth free will." That is the exact statement. It's no different then Cerberus upgrades.

14. LOOK at asari weapons and ships. You can see the similiarties. ANYONE can. And "masterminds" my ass. The asari are led by sevral thouand matriarchs, a set for each asari worlds. They are NOT "masterminds" anymore then the Alliance are for hiding the true extent of the Archive on Mars. Many of the datapads you find say that many of the Archives were sealed off and forbidden to try and study until recantly. The Alliance only allowed people to study it when they finally wised up to the fact that the Reapers were more then just a myth.

10.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

Sorry dude, I was not toting myself as superior to others.  I specifically said you are some dude on the internet when compared to DARWIN.  Last I checked, I am not Darwin.  He has been dead for a long time.  You idea about success when a species does extinct will not change my opinion regarding Darwin.  The purpose of life is to survive.  Anything else is failure.  

If you can provide me evidence every single one of the Turian worlds are under attack, I will consider it.  All I know is the majority of their people live on Palevan and that **** is burning.  If evacuating billions via the Qurians flotilla means I have to give up or share a world with a few million on it then I agree.  As far as I am aware most of the homeworlds have billions of people and most of the colony planets have millions.

I thought the comparison was 60 years versus 100 years.  That is what I have seen others some of which were Quarian supporters saying.  If you have proof it is 60 versus 600 then provide it and I will consider it.

And fighting has show REPEATEDLY that it has a higher chance for survival then negotaition in regards to the Reapers. And that same mindset is how the geth are seen. You are just looping in circles again.

Look at their discriptions in the game. EVERY turian world you see is either under attack, being eveacuated, or has already fallen. The proof is there in-game for yopu to Read EVERY time you enter a turians system.
If you NEED examples:
Aephus: targeted by Cerberus.
Palaven: Reaper siege.
Digeris: Bloody stalemate.
Invictus: Unknown. Planet is home to extremely virluent dieseses. Turian fatalities to swamp-bourn illness is high. (NOT a place where quarians can be safe, as one tear in their suits will be fatal).
Gellix: Turian penal colony, abandoned. Re-colonized by the Alliance. Cerberus attacked.
Oma Ker: Reaper siege.
Taetrus: Counquered by the Reapers.
Triginta Petra: Counquered by the Reapers.
Xerceo: Counquered by the Reapers.
EVERY turian world seen in-game has been either attacked, is under attack, is targeted for attack, or has fallen already. You really are going to try and claim that the others aren;t in similar situations?
And WHY would the turians give away a perfectly good world that their OWN people can use for evacuation or staging counterattacks? NO ONE can spare an entire world on short demand. Not even for a fleet. Otherwise, the quarians would have ASKED them for it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhBbRnxPVWs
Play from 16:20. THERE is your proof, straignt from Tali's own mouth. 60 years, or 600 years. And me and DenionSlayer already posted the counters to them which refuted that.
IDk how you would have missed it. 60+ pages had that on it.

[Xilizhra]

[quote]2. Again, Tuchanka, and diolouge from Shepard and co. clearly indicate Cerberus as Reaper allies.[/quote]
So you don't actually say anything new to respond to that point. Got it.

[quote]3. That Reaper implants are NOT a good idea, and that only an insane person, or an indoctrinated person, would EVER think using them was safe. That you either have to be indoctrinated to use them, or just plain crazy.[/quote]
All right, now explain how that's relevant to the code (and not the control signal).

[quote]4. Not if it bites you in the ass every time. I have yet to see any situation that didn't end with the Crew getting taken. The ONLY reason it failed was because Joker unlocked the A.I. core, which flushed the computer systems.[/quote]
You do realize we could never have made it past the Omega-4 relay without the IFF, yes?

[quote]5 Your statement that the IFF was worth the entire Normandy Crew. It's NOT. And the fact that it backfired at all is the point: no one can ever assume this tech is safe to use.[/quote]
Objectively, it was, actually. Certainly we'd never have gone anywhere further without the IFF. And paralyzing a ship while broadcasting a locator signal is a far easier task than controlling an entire synthetic species, especially since the IFF was a single device that only needed to worry about one target, not raw code spread over trillions of minds.

[quote]6. WHAT?? Did you miss the memo about how sutdy of the dead Reaper indoctrinated half the damn Batarian Hegemony? And Sovergien's remains were quantum shielded, because, unlike everyone else, Bryosn actually believed Shepard's claims of the Reapers. No one else did, so no one else likely took the same precautions. And remember Rana Thanoptis? Indoctrinated. Killed half a dozen asari military officals in a suicide bombing. Turns out she was indoctrinated ever since Virmire. Wouldn't know it to look at her, right?[/quote]
So you're saying that Reaper tech can be safely used under certain conditions, then.

[quote]7. The Collectors don't look prothean either, do they? But they are. It also doesn;t look like Reaper tech, now does it? If anything, it's canabalized prothean tech, reformated, but not added to.[/quote]
So the Protheans just happened to develop technology perfect for Reaper harvesting, independent of the Reapers? That's more likely?

[quote]8. No. They are enslaved to that signal. Another example is Shepard talking to Diana Allers, in which SHepard says the geth will want payback for their "enslavement."
And Legion certenly didn't agree to it. If he did, he wouldn't have been chained up to the Dreadnought core. He would have been a willing interface, not shackled into the thing. And when given the choice, geth NOT infulenced by the code chose to join with Legion, did they not?[/quote]
So you're completely ignoring the plot point where Legion said the geth did, in fact, choose to submit to the Reapers? Legion itself might not have been willing, but not all the programs in the server chose to join Legion; it only persuaded some of them.

[quote]9. Again, Legion says that the option was avalible after the Reaper's control was broken. As in, the primes would not have accepted if they were still under Reaper control.
Also, If you actuall look around afterword, you will see the code is STILL reforming, with strands iniching together as time goes on. Leave the code alone long enough, and the weak points DO reform. [/quote]
Why leave any weak points around at all? Just burn them all down to the roots. Also, you're misremembering the line. It's "While Shepard-Commander removed the Reaper infection, we judged we could persuade hostile geth programs to reunite with us." As in, Legion was doing so while Shepard was blasting through the server, it didn't do all of it after Shepard was already done. Additionally, the programs had been hostile anyway before Legion's persuasion, but had been made non-hostile by said persuasion, not the destruction of the Reaper code.

[quote]10. The geth doing whatever the Reaper commands? Spicific terms like "Even if it costs the geth free will" or "the Reapers have them comepletely under their control" or "enslavement"? All these terms point to it being EXACTALLY like the Cerberus implants.[/quote]
The control signal, maybe. The performance-enhancing code, no. They're two separate things.

[quote]11. It all depends on how you play. The two choices in diolouge options can grant you the same result. They are NOT inherantly good or evil. [/quote]
Not always.

[quote]12. Yes it does. AGAIN, Reaper Destroyers are the "lesser" Reapers. What do you think a Reaper like Harbinger could do if given the chance? Again, you continue to ignore the risks.[/quote]
Lesser in what sense? Control signal broadcasting power? How do you know this? Couldn't Sovereign have enslaved the entire geth consensus by doing this, instead of accepting the worship of heretics that it didn't even want, if the Reapers were actually capable of this sort of thing?

[quote]13. They acted outside their will in the war. Shepard even spicifically notes that the upgrades "cost the geth free will." That is the exact statement. It's no different then Cerberus upgrades.[/quote]
Yes... the control signal, not the code.

[quote]14. LOOK at asari weapons and ships. You can see the similiarties. ANYONE can. And "masterminds" my ass. The asari are led by sevral thouand matriarchs, a set for each asari worlds. They are NOT "masterminds" anymore then the Alliance are for hiding the true extent of the Archive on Mars. Many of the datapads you find say that many of the Archives were sealed off and forbidden to try and study until recantly. The Alliance only allowed people to study it when they finally wised up to the fact that the Reapers were more then just a myth.[/quote]
Now you're just making **** up. The asari have a direct democracy where everyone votes on policies directly. The matriarchs have more of an unofficial position of general policy suggestions, but it's not a representative democracy. And why would distant administrators on Lessus or something even need to know about this? It's like 9/11 Truthers claiming that every single member of Congress was in on the attacks... multiplied by several orders of magnitude... except that I don't think any of them were dumb enough to say that, because it's completely absurd. Also, I don't know about you, but I don't see much resemblance between asari and Prothean weapons.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Gherel:  You did it Shepard.  The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING.  They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

See that statement above.  That is what Gherel said.



Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.


See how you claim here that completely vulnerable ie Gherel's statement does not mean stopped shooting but that barriers are down.  Yeah that's wrong.  That is not what Gherel's statement meant.  Gherel makes clear what he meant.  Showing me a codex that talks about events after this statement is irrelevant. 

Look, let's be honest here, you only remembered the second half of the statement ie They are completely vulnerable and forgot that the full statement included Gherel explaining they stopped firing and that was why they were completely vulnerable.  You hate the fact you were wrong so now you bring up this codex that has nothing to do with what Gherel said.

And AGAIN:


After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their
bandwidth
became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters
reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could
fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's
gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in
tatters, their forces separated by vast distances.
The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.

SEE how the Codex backs my statement up? How it stated that the geth were able to shoot back and mount a" tireless defense?"
So YES, when I said barriers were the major effect of that, I MEANT it.  And AGAIN, what Gerrel said is only an obsarvation of that spicific moment, and as evidenced by the CODEX, not a representation of the entire fight, but that single moment when the Reaper died. The battle transcript tells the events of AFTER that moment, and therefore how the battle progressed follwoing that. It tells you that the geth staged a tireless defense, and that it WASN'T a one-sided battle, and that this was all AFTER the Reaper was killed. So YES, it IS completely relevent, as it is the events that directly follow that moment.

So NO. I know what I said, and that you continue to twist this around. I bring up this Codex because I DID know what I siad, and have proof to validate that it's true. YOU are the one that cannot accept that you bought into what people tell you by word of mouth alone and didn't even bother to think on what's behind it. That the world isn't as simple as one statement.

Now please, this isn't getting anywhere. Every time you repost that quote, I will reaffirm with the FACTUALLY ACCURATE battle transcript that was recorded into the Codex. Nothing you do will alter that. You are now wasting time on something that I repreatedly listed as being factually true according to the Codex.
I will ask one more time. Let. It.Go.

[remydat]

Silver,

So a few of those planets are under attack by Cerberus not the Reapers. Or claimed by the Alliance. Again, not sure why I wouldn't suggest to the Alliance and the Turians that I get one of these planets after we get rid of Cerberus.

Tali's statement is not a factual statement. She is just giving an example or her opinion not providing an actual calculation backed up by analysis. In that same vid Koris advocates settling a new world.

And fighting does not have a higher chance of survival when the end result is extinction. Until this cycle, the end result was extinction period. In fact the only people to survive like Leviathan and Javik did not fight, they went and hid. They lived. Everyone else died.

[remydat]

Gherel: You did it Shepard. The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING. They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

See that statement above. That is what Gherel said. Not the codex. If you wanted to talk about the Codex then you should not have used the term Completely Vulnerable because Gherel made clear his statement of completely vulnerable was a reference to the Geth not firing.



Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.


See how you claim here that completely vulnerable ie Gherel's statement does not mean stopped shooting but that barriers are down. Yeah that's wrong. That is not what Gherel's statement meant. Gherel makes clear what he meant. Showing me a codex that talks about events after this statement is irrelevant. I never challenged anything about the events after this statement. I said you saying Gherel's statement did not mean stopped shooting and meant barriers down is wrong because Gherel says its wrong.

Modifié par remydat, 16 avril 2013 - 02:11 .

[Blarg]

If I could only pick one? Oh dear. Odds are I'd have never finished the SP in that case.
But to answer:

Logically: The geth. Better at winning the war, obviously.

Emotionally: The quarians. They're organic, so there's some bias and empathy there.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Gherel: You did it Shepard. The Geth Fleet have STOPPED FIRING. They are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE.

See that statement above. That is what Gherel said. Not the codex. If you wanted to talk about the Codex then you should not have used the term Completely Vulnerable because Gherel made clear his statement of completely vulnerable was a reference to the Geth not firing.



Silver's factually inaccurate interpretation.

AGAIN, you refuse to acknowledge the Codex. AGAIN, you take word of mouth as the unltimate soruce of info. And you WONDER why so many abandon you in the debate as unreasonable. AGAIN, COMPLETELY VULNERABLE does NOT mean they STOPPED SHOOTING. It likely means barriers are down, and they have lost all sense of coordination. NOT that they are defenseless.


See how you claim here that completely vulnerable ie Gherel's statement does not mean stopped shooting but that barriers are down. Yeah that's wrong. That is not what Gherel's statement meant. Gherel makes clear what he meant. Showing me a codex that talks about events after this statement is irrelevant. I never challenged anything about the events after this statement. I said you saying Gherel's statement did not mean stopped shooting and meant barriers down is wrong because Gherel says its wrong.

And AGAIN, it is of an observation of ONE SPICIFIC SECOND. An observation of a situation at THAT SPICIFIC MOMENT. Which, as proven by the Codex, CHANGED. JUST as I said, Completely vunerible does NOT mean they couldn't shoot or fight. They DID. It's right there in the Codex. The geth DID fire when they had the chance. Being stunned inturrupted them, but did NOT make them have second thoughts about shooting. As soon as the shock faded, they RESUMED shooting.


After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.


And AGAIN, Codex trumps your word of mouth. Being stuned isn't stoppong shooting. It's interrupting the shooting, but not STOPPING it, as the geth continue the instant the shock fades. You can twist it however you want, but it DOESN'T change the LISTED FACTUAL battle transcript in the damn Codex. Gerrel's observation of that one second after the Reaper dies is shown to not represent the entire fight.
AGAIN, you waste time and effort spinning your wheels. Just let it go.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 16 avril 2013 - 02:40 .