4712 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
But it does indirectly because the hatred of the Geth didn't end with the Morning War.  The roots of that conflict and the Geth siding with the Reapers is the continued hatred organic life had for sentient synthetic life.  There is no definitive proof that every conflict started this way but if we judge by the Quarians, it seems that the Reapers existence was likely the result of this same kind of hatred of synthetics causing dumb organics to wage a war they would ultimately lose and so the Reapers were created as the solution to prevent organic stupidity from causing them to pick a fight with synthetics that would ultimately lead synthetics to conclude they needed to wipe all organics out to presereve their existence.

The quarians wanted their homeworld which the geth would not vacate. That is why they attacked them pre-ME3. They also would have wiped the geth out if not for the Reapers, so I don't buy the "dumb organics picking fights they can't win" argument.

Moreover, me understanding geth motivations is not the same as me accepting them. I understand they sided with the Reapers to avoid annihilation; me understanding their motivations does not make them allies or worth saving.

I DO save them because that's what Paragons do and because I want as large a force as possible to take back Earth, but saying we should forgive siding with the Reapers because they were just trying to save themselves doesn't fly with me. And I would hold that opinion for any synthetic OR organic race that decided - in totality - to betray the galaxy for the Reapers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 03:50 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth were also willing to give up their freewill and kill all civilized organic life in the known galaxy to survive. Because a single organic race attacked them.

Except the Council outlawed the creation of synthetic life did it not?  The Quarians were not the only organic race that hated synethetics.  All of them did as far as I can tell.  That is precisely why the Reapers exist it seems.  Organics create synthetic life but then get ******** when that life wants to no longer be its slave.  War ensues.  If Organics continually try to deny synethetics a right to exist then why would synethetics not seek to wipe them all out.  Shepard depending on your choice appeared to be the only organic with a willingness to see the synthetics side of the story.

You are basically blaming the Geth because organics picked a fight they couldn't win based on their own prejudices regarding synthetic life.

Legion directly states the mistrust between Organics and Synthetics stems from both sides. Not blaming,I am holding the Geth accountable for their actions.

If the Geth are justified on these basis,then the Organics are also justified. As the Heretics chose to worship the Reapers before becoming "enslaved" Any ship sent into Geth space was either killed or huskified. For nearly 300 years. Geth chose to give up freewill and help kill all civilized organic life. You say it is justified by mistrust created by the Geth. Hence it is their own fault?

Ps. The Quarians were defeating the Geth before Reaper intervention. The Galaxy as a whole could potentially wipe out the Geth if they chose to. They have chosen to allow the Geth to live. What hate has been directly shown? How many Synthetic Geth have been killed by Organics vs the number of Organics killed by the Geth?

Modifié par Rip504, 18 mars 2013 - 03:54 .

[Khelish]

N7 Drone wrote...

@Khelish
Meh. The Quarians choose to attack the Geth first.

... so what? Attacking first, or last, does not excuse killing billions of innocent people. Military to non-combatant ratio, go educate yourself. The Geth killed unarmed people, it is called "common sense", funny, it isn't that common around the BSN...

They were outmatch and nearly wipe out by the Geth but Geth let the last of the Quarians to get away. IF the of last 17 million quarians countined to attack the Geth why should I care if the rest them get wipe out?

You seem to have very little regard for life in general. Days like this, I am so glad people like you are not in charge of the world...

[HiddenInWar]

Nope, quarians.

[Xilizhra]

Ps. The Quarians were defeating the Geth before Reaper intervention. The Galaxy as a whole could potentially wipe out the Geth if they chose to. They have chosen to allow the Geth to live. What hate has been directly shown? How many Synthetic Geth have been killed by Organics vs the number of Organics killed by the Geth?

Billions of geth have been killed by organics, to be sure.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
But it does indirectly because the hatred of the Geth didn't end with the Morning War.  The roots of that conflict and the Geth siding with the Reapers is the continued hatred organic life had for sentient synthetic life.  There is no definitive proof that every conflict started this way but if we judge by the Quarians, it seems that the Reapers existence was likely the result of this same kind of hatred of synthetics causing dumb organics to wage a war they would ultimately lose and so the Reapers were created as the solution to prevent organic stupidity from causing them to pick a fight with synthetics that would ultimately lead synthetics to conclude they needed to wipe all organics out to presereve their existence.

The quarians wanted their homeworld which the geth would not vacate. That is why they attacked them pre-ME3. They also would have wiped the geth out if not for the Reapers, so I don't buy the "dumb organics picking fights they can't win" argument.

Moreover, me understanding geth motivations is not the same as me accepting them. I understand they sided with the Reapers to avoid annihilation; me understanding their motivations does not make them allies or worth saving.

I DO save them because that's what Paragons do and because I want as large a force as possible to take back Earth, but saying we should forgive siding with the Reapers because they were just trying to save themselves doesn't fly with me. And I would hold that opinion for any synthetic OR organic race that decided - in totality - to betray the galaxy for the Reapers.

The Quarians lost their homeworld because of their stupidity.  They lost it centuries ago.  The Quarians if they had been willing to accept coexisting with the Geth would have been back on Rannoch a long time ago.  

You are giving them a pass when their own ignorance and prejudice is what prevented them reclaiming their homeworld.  And you are ignoring that the Geth allied with the only people willing to prevent their annihilation.  To sit there and expect a sentient race to just accept their extinction is silly.  If they wanted to live they had no choice but to side with the Reapers.  They made a decision any organic would have when faced with genocide.

Sorry I don't think you would be so forgiving of the Quarians attempt at genocide that the rest of the galaxy would have happily supported if the targets of said genocide were organic.  Which is fine, this is just fiction after all but let's call a spade a spade.  Objectively speaking the Geth were oppressed by the entire Galaxy and so accepted the help of the only group willing to stand against the organics attempts at genocide.

Personally, if I have to choose between wipping out the oppressed or the oppressors, I choose the latter.

[CronoDragoon]

Xilizhra wrote...
Billions of geth have been killed by organics, to be sure.

You don't mean the heretic geth that joined with Sovereign against the galaxy, right?

[S.A.K]

Only good Geth is a dead Geth. Good for scrap metal that is...

[HiddenInWar]

Choosing the quarians over the geth saves me half the pain of choosing destroy too.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

The Quarians lost their homeworld because of their stupidity.  They lost it centuries ago.  The Quarians if they had been willing to accept coexisting with the Geth would have been back on Rannoch a long time ago.

Doubt it, considering the geth destroyed any ships that came near.  

You are giving them a pass when their own ignorance and prejudice is what prevented them reclaiming their homeworld.  And you are ignoring that the Geth allied with the only people willing to prevent their annihilation.  To sit there and expect a sentient race to just accept their extinction is silly.

Once again I will point out that understanding is not the same as accepting. I understand the geth allied with the Reapers to save themselves. That still makes them an enemy of the galaxy by their own choice.

If they wanted to live they had no choice but to side with the Reapers.  They made a decision any organic would have when faced with genocide.

Oh? What about EDI's character arc, in which Shepard educated her that organic goals diverge from and surpass basic survival instinct.

Sorry I don't think you would be so forgiving of the Quarians attempt at genocide that the rest of the galaxy would have happily supported if the targets of said genocide were organic.  Which is fine, this is just fiction after all but let's call a spade a spade.  Objectively speaking the Geth were oppressed by the entire Galaxy and so accepted the help of the only group willing to stand against the organics attempts at genocide.

Personally, if I have to choose between wipping out the oppressed or the oppressors, I choose the latter.

If the quarians, to defeat the geth and reclaim their homeworld, had sided with the Reapers for the tech to do so, then I would have gladly killed in battle any individuals that had agreed to such a plan. In the impossible case of every single quarian agreeing, I wouldn't have any more of a problem killing them than the geth. Even Tali, my LI. Of course, since organics are individuals you also have to take into account those who were forced to follow the decision but didn't want to. There is no such consideration for the geth, which as we know is essentially a race of one mind.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 04:14 .

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth were also willing to give up their freewill and kill all civilized organic life in the known galaxy to survive. Because a single organic race attacked them.

Except the Council outlawed the creation of synthetic life did it not?  The Quarians were not the only organic race that hated synethetics.  All of them did as far as I can tell.  That is precisely why the Reapers exist it seems.  Organics create synthetic life but then get ******** when that life wants to no longer be its slave.  War ensues.  If Organics continually try to deny synethetics a right to exist then why would synethetics not seek to wipe them all out.  Shepard depending on your choice appeared to be the only organic with a willingness to see the synthetics side of the story.

You are basically blaming the Geth because organics picked a fight they couldn't win based on their own prejudices regarding synthetic life.

Legion directly states the mistrust between Organics and Synthetics stems from both sides. Not blaming,I am holding the Geth accountable for their actions.

If the Geth are justified on these basis,then the Organics are also justified. As the Heretics chose to worship the Reapers before becoming "enslaved" Any ship sent into Geth space was either killed or huskified. For nearly 300 years. Geth chose to give up freewill and help kill all civilized organic life. You say it is justified by mistrust created by the Geth. Hence it is their own fault?

Ps. The Quarians were defeating the Geth before Reaper intervention. The Galaxy as a whole could potentially wipe out the Geth if they chose to. They have chosen to allow the Geth to live. What hate has been directly shown? How many Synthetic Geth have been killed by Organics vs the number of Organics killed by the Geth?

When you go into the Reaper servers, it makes it clear that the Quarians initiated the war.  The Geth did not fight back until the Quarians started to kill Quarians sympathetic to the geth. 

No the Galaxy choose not to engage in a war that would cost millions of lives as long as the Geth stayed behind the Perseus Veil.  The Galaxy outlawed the creation of synthetic life and only tolerated the Geth because the Geth did not encroach on their terroritory.  If they had the power to wipe them out with little casualties they would.  We know for a fact that when the Geth had a chance to wipe out the Quarians with little risk to their lives, they opted to spare them.  I have seen no evidence organics would have done the same.

And I think you are confusing the Collectors with the Geth.  The Geth did not have the technology to huskify anyone for 300 years.  It was stated by Legion that the Geth who came into organic space from the Perseus Veil were a minority and that the Geth lived in relatively isolation.  Where is the evidence of this hundreds of years of conflict.  Geth couldn't enter organic space without fear of retribution and maybe the same was true if organics went into the Perseus Veil but I don't recall that every being stated as fact.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...


Personally, if I have to choose between wipping out the oppressed or the oppressors, I choose the latter.

And this right here, is why you fail so hard.

Both are victims. Both are oppressors. Neither are blameless for this conflict.

What does worry me, is that you have no concern for the millions of Quarians that didn't want this war in the first place.

[Stakrin]

Nope, even not knowing tali will kill herself if I don't, or Legion will die either way, I would save Quarians. They are flesh, and I went there with a promise to Tali. Plus, killing Geth before the code=killing robots. Killing Geth after the code=Killing people. (Legions fights with Shepard saying "we" but sacrifices himself for the Geth saying "I know, Tali" So there is the first huge difference, Quarians are already individuals.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Quarians lost their homeworld because of their stupidity.  They lost it centuries ago.  The Quarians if they had been willing to accept coexisting with the Geth would have been back on Rannoch a long time ago.

Doubt it, considering the geth destroyed any ships that came near.  

You are giving them a pass when their own ignorance and prejudice is what prevented them reclaiming their homeworld.  And you are ignoring that the Geth allied with the only people willing to prevent their annihilation.  To sit there and expect a sentient race to just accept their extinction is silly.

Once again I will point out that understanding is not the same as accepting. I understand the geth allied with the Reapers to save themselves. That still makes them an enemy of the galaxy by their own choice.

If they wanted to live they had no choice but to side with the Reapers.  They made a decision any organic would have when faced with genocide.

Oh? Apparently you weren't paying attention to the entirety of EDI's character arc, in which Shepard educated her that organic goals diverge from and surpass basic survival instinct.

Sorry I don't think you would be so forgiving of the Quarians attempt at genocide that the rest of the galaxy would have happily supported if the targets of said genocide were organic.  Which is fine, this is just fiction after all but let's call a spade a spade.  Objectively speaking the Geth were oppressed by the entire Galaxy and so accepted the help of the only group willing to stand against the organics attempts at genocide.

Personally, if I have to choose between wipping out the oppressed or the oppressors, I choose the latter.

If the quarians, to defeat the geth and reclaim their homeworld, had sided with the Reapers for the tech to do so, then I would have gladly killed in battle any individuals that had agreed to such a plan. Of course, since organics are individuals you also have to take into account those who were forced to follow the decision but didn't want to. There is no such consideration for the geth, which as we know is essentially a race of one mind.

Were Geth allowed in organic space?  Organics had almost the entire galaxy.  The Geth had the Perseus Veil.  If Geth destroyed organic ships which I would still like to see where that was proven as fact then it was because of their oppression at the hands of organics.  If humans destroyed Geth ships entering organic space, it was not because of oppression, it was because they held a grudge against the Geth for opposing being oppressed. 

The Geth were restricted to the Perseus Veil and the creation of synthetic life was outlawed.  They Galaxy had always considered them an enemy because they dared to question being terminated by the Quarians.  Again, you are trying to morally equate the position of the oppressor with the oppressed.  The Geth were oppressed by the entire galaxy and eventually some of them (a minority according to Legion) sought to end that oppression by siding with the Reapers.  How long do you think a people should be oppressed before they fight back?

So you think an organic would accept the extinction of his race rather than accept help against his oppressor.  Can you provide a real life example of this occurring?  I saw Communists and Capitalists working together during WWII and the annihilation of the species was not at stake.

And it was stated clearly that only a minority of Geth sided with Saren and the Reapers the first time.  The majority stayed behind the Perseus Veil.  Legion is also clear and definitie proof that the Geth are not just a hive mind.  You are basically trying to find excuses to deny the Geth the right to exist and to justify an entire galaxy of organics oppossing their existence.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

And I think you are confusing the Collectors with the Geth.  The Geth did not have the technology to huskify anyone for 300 years.  It was stated by Legion that the Geth who came into organic space from the Perseus Veil were a minority and that the Geth lived in relatively isolation.  Where is the evidence of this hundreds of years of conflict.  Geth couldn't enter organic space without fear of retribution and maybe the same was true if organics went into the Perseus Veil but I don't recall that every being stated as fact.

Geth killed Billions of Quarians before "letting them go".

I agree the Geth did not have tech to huskify organics for 300 years. Implying the Heretics did not exist for the full 300 years,as the Heretics indeed had the tech to huskify organics. Also implying that the ships sent into Geth space to determine the situation of the Geth were being killed by Geth. Implying Geth were indeed hostile towards Organics after killing billions of Organics. ME1 side mission directly states this and it may be in the codex somewhere. Heretics are Geth. Just as Cerberus are 99% Human. Britain,America,Japan,Catholic,and etc members are 99% Human.

ME2 Legion states the Geth could not go beyond the veil because they could not function properly. That it was a special unit made to do so. Also the Geth do not experience "fear" So the Geth have shown signs of mistrust and hostility. When have they ever offered or shown signs of peaceful intentions?

(Edit:Legion also stated it could understand why some would consider the Reapers to be gods even if it does not. So Legion may consider the Reapers to be God like entities,but not actual gods. Why not strive for that as a synthetic? Not the Harvest but the rest. The Geth do decide to keep the Reaper Code upgrades and take that first step. The Geth have also shown they are willing to do anything to survive. The Geth are just as potentially dangerous as they are potentially peaceful)

DeinonSlayer wrote...
According to Mass Effect: Revelation, for three centuries, the Geth shot down any organic seen entering the
Veil, including diplomatic vessels sent to make contact with them, without so much as answering a radio hail. This is confirmed in the secondary codex entry on Geth culture. According to the planet description of Haestrom, only military reconnaisance drones with state-of-the-art stealth technology have ever made it back intact.

Also, please note that the Geth lose fully 1/3rd of their strength if you destroy Heretic Station.

Modifié par Rip504, 18 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

When you go into the Reaper servers, it makes it clear that the Quarians initiated the war.  The Geth did not fight back until the Quarians started to kill Quarians sympathetic to the geth.

This argument amounts to "The Geth are innocent of all wrongdoing! They said so themselves!"

In an environment where even the gun in your hands is an illusion, someone with a demonstrated penchant for lies of omission shows you a few brief clips of his choosing, claiming them to be memories of the Morning War. Even if we give the benefit of the doubt that the footage is not an outright fabrication, they have total control over what to show you and a vested interest in gaining your sympathy. This is just about the least partial and trustworthy source imagineable for an objective retelling of the conflict.

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

When were the Quarians ever not up-front with the fact that they started the war?

No the Galaxy choose not to engage in a war that would cost millions of lives as long as the Geth stayed behind the Perseus Veil.  The Galaxy outlawed the creation of synthetic life and only tolerated the Geth because the Geth did not encroach on their terroritory.  If they had the power to wipe them out with little casualties they would.  We know for a fact that when the Geth had a chance to wipe out the Quarians with little risk to their lives, they opted to spare them.  I have seen no evidence organics would have done the same.

AI was illegal before the Geth were created. The Council has periodically granted waivers to certain entities (like Synthetic Insights, in the current timeline) to study artificial intelligence, but the Geth initially "waking up" was an accident. Revelation goes into this. Basically, the Council spews the same synthetic-organic crap Starbrat does - the Quarians were compelled by Council law to try to shut the Geth down.

And I think you are confusing the Collectors with the Geth.  The Geth did not have the technology to huskify anyone for 300 years.  It was stated by Legion that the Geth who came into organic space from the Perseus Veil were a minority and that the Geth lived in relatively isolation.  Where is the evidence of this hundreds of years of conflict.  Geth couldn't enter organic space without fear of retribution and maybe the same was true if organics went into the Perseus Veil but I don't recall that every being stated as fact.

According to Mass Effect: Revelation, for three centuries, the Geth shot down any organic seen entering the Veil, including diplomatic vessels sent to make contact with them, without so much as answering a radio hail. This is confirmed in the secondary codex entry on Geth culture. According to the planet description of Haestrom, only military reconnaisance drones with state-of-the-art stealth technology have ever made it back intact.

Also, please note that the Geth lose fully 1/3rd of their strength if you destroy Heretic Station.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 mars 2013 - 04:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
Were Geth allowed in organic space?  Organics had almost the entire galaxy.  The Geth had the Perseus Veil.  If Geth destroyed organic ships which I would still like to see where that was proven as fact then it was because of their oppression at the hands of organics.  If humans destroyed Geth ships entering organic space, it was not because of oppression, it was because they held a grudge against the Geth for opposing being oppressed. 

The Geth were restricted to the Perseus Veil and the creation of synthetic life was outlawed.  They Galaxy had always considered them an enemy because they dared to question being terminated by the Quarians.  Again, you are trying to morally equate the position of the oppressor with the oppressed.  The Geth were oppressed by the entire galaxy and eventually some of them (a minority according to Legion) sought to end that oppression by siding with the Reapers.  How long do you think a people should be oppressed before they fight back?

Ending oppression is not the same as extinguishing everyone in the galaxy that you conceive as an oppressor.

So you think an organic would accept the extinction of his race rather than accept help against his oppressor.  Can you provide a real life example of this occurring?  I saw Communists and Capitalists working together during WWII and the annihilation of the species was not at stake.

And it was stated clearly that only a minority of Geth sided with Saren and the Reapers the first time.  The majority stayed behind the Perseus Veil.  Legion is also clear and definitie proof that the Geth are not just a hive mind.  You are basically trying to find excuses to deny the Geth the right to exist and to justify an entire galaxy of organics oppossing their existence.

That's funny, because I clearly stated that I gave the geth a second chance on Rannoch for the quarians and geth to try and live in peace. I am not denying the geth anything that they haven't forfeited themselves. Do you seriously think the geth sided with the Reapers thinking that organics should see this as justified?

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...


Personally, if I have to choose between wipping out the oppressed or the oppressors, I choose the latter.

And this right here, is why you fail so hard.

Both are victims. Both are oppressors. Neither are blameless for this conflict.

What does worry me, is that you have no concern for the millions of Quarians that didn't want this war in the first place.

Overthrowing your oppressors and allowing them to live and escape is not oppressor.

And I already said I have sympathy for Tali and Admiral Koris because they are sensible.  If there are other Quarians who are sensible then I would have sympathy for them as well.  However, judging by the rest of the Quarian leadership who were militant in their beliefs the Geth had no right to live, it sure seemd to me that most of the Quarians shared their views.

I always choose to save both Quarians and Geth and have only selected the destroy option once just to see it.  The OP asked for a choice.  And when faced with that choice like I said, I side with the people who didn't start the conflict which is the Geth. 

[tevix]

@Remydat

Ok, here's the deal. I used to side with your argument. After getting my a-- handed to me in this thread repeatedly in such a way that my arguments were the equivilant of a pop gun against a battleship I began to rethink it.

Let me point out a few things I couldn't ignore.

1) The quarian population went from billions to 17 millions by the end of the morning war. Billions. The quarians lost BILLIONS. There is simply no way for that to happen without the mindless slaughter of innocents and non-combatants (elderly, children, etc). Self defense cannot justify this.

2) The quarians attacked the geth at rannoch out of desperation. They needed to rearrange the way their fleet and resources were handled and didn't know what else to do. Was direct war without any attempt at peace the best way to get there? Maybe not.

3) Legion told you that the TRUE geth would never accept any handouts from the reapers. They would build their own future with their own hands. If you destroy the collector base, Legion reaffirms this.

In ME3 the "true" geth ally with the reapers to save themselves from the quarians. Legion swore this was something they would never do. By doing this they became the heretics they so despised.

In addition, once the quarians were gone the geth would be turned on the galaxy. They would have the full measure of their upgraded fleet, including their shiny new near unstoppable Dreadnought. The geth deemed this acceptable.

The quarians and the geth are both guilty. I find the quarians slightly less guilty if I am forced to choose between them, now

Again, I used to argue your side. Think about it for a bit. The geth start to look really ugly.

[Da Don Giovanni]

NCommand wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Seriously, the best thing about the destroy ending is the destruction of Geth. That way I can use thier war assets and get rid of them later.

Thank you Bioware.

Admiral Xen approves

Racist!

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

And I think you are confusing the Collectors with the Geth.  The Geth did not have the technology to huskify anyone for 300 years.  It was stated by Legion that the Geth who came into organic space from the Perseus Veil were a minority and that the Geth lived in relatively isolation.  Where is the evidence of this hundreds of years of conflict.  Geth couldn't enter organic space without fear of retribution and maybe the same was true if organics went into the Perseus Veil but I don't recall that every being stated as fact.

Geth killed Billions of Quarians before "letting them go".

I agree the Geth did not have tech to huskify organics for 300 years. Implying the Heretics did not exist for the full 300 years,as the Heretics indeed had the tech to huskify organics. Also implying that the ships sent into Geth space to determine the situation of the Geth were being killed by Geth. Implying Geth were indeed hostile towards Organics after killing billions of Organics. ME1 side mission directly states this and it may be in the codex somewhere. Heretics are Geth. Just as Cerberus are 99% Human. Britain,America,Japan,Catholic,and etc members are 99% Human.

ME2 Legion states the Geth could not go beyond the veil because they could not function properly. That it was a special unit made to do so. So the Geth have shown signs of mistrust and hostility. When have they ever offered or shown signs of peaceful intentions?

(Edit:Legion also stated it could understand why some would consider the
Reapers to be gods even if it does not. So Legion may consider the
Reapers to be God like entities,but not actual gods. Why not strive for
that as a synthetic? Not the Harvest but the rest. The Geth do decide to
keep the Reaper Code upgrades and take that first step. The Geth have
also shown they are willing to do anything to survive. The Geth are just
as potentially dangerous as they are potentially peaceful)

The Geth killed Quarians because the Quarians wanted them all dead?  What were they suppose to do, just wound them?  

And I am asking you what would happen to a Geth ship entering Organic Space?  And I was referring to evidence that the majority of Geth opposed organics. The codex you are referring to does not specify whether the Geth shooting down organic ships were a minority or part of the majority.  They are organic accounts and we know most organics don't make the distinction between Geth because from their perspective all Geth are the same. 

The fact is when an organic (Sheppard) reasoned with them, they listened.  On the flip side, Gherel was willing to sacrifice Tali and Shepard and then when you choose the option to have them coexist, Admiral Gherel has to be threatened to back down from continuing the fight.

The original Geth (which means to serve) opposed his termination because he felt he could still serve.  He asked what he did wrong.  The Geth started taking up arms when Quarians sympathetic to their cause were slaughtered.  To the point that centuries later, only the Geth had preserved the memories of those sympathetic Quarians.  The point is any mistrust and hostility from the Geth is the direct result of what the Quarians did to them.  Any hostility ad mistrust of teh Geth is largely due to them opposing being terminated.  You are trying to morally equate two things that are drastically different. The Quarians killed them because they considered them unworthy of life.  The Geth killed the Quarians and other organics because they opposed the Geth right to live.  See the difference yet?

[tevix]

@Remydat

1) Did you even read my post

2) Did you read deinon's last? It's kind of hard to see the geth as 100% victim when they reject peaceful communication attempts by killing your diplomatic staff...

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
Were Geth allowed in organic space?  Organics had almost the entire galaxy.  The Geth had the Perseus Veil.  If Geth destroyed organic ships which I would still like to see where that was proven as fact then it was because of their oppression at the hands of organics.  If humans destroyed Geth ships entering organic space, it was not because of oppression, it was because they held a grudge against the Geth for opposing being oppressed. 

The Geth were restricted to the Perseus Veil and the creation of synthetic life was outlawed.  They Galaxy had always considered them an enemy because they dared to question being terminated by the Quarians.  Again, you are trying to morally equate the position of the oppressor with the oppressed.  The Geth were oppressed by the entire galaxy and eventually some of them (a minority according to Legion) sought to end that oppression by siding with the Reapers.  How long do you think a people should be oppressed before they fight back?

Ending oppression is not the same as extinguishing everyone in the galaxy that you conceive as an oppressor.

So you think an organic would accept the extinction of his race rather than accept help against his oppressor.  Can you provide a real life example of this occurring?  I saw Communists and Capitalists working together during WWII and the annihilation of the species was not at stake.

And it was stated clearly that only a minority of Geth sided with Saren and the Reapers the first time.  The majority stayed behind the Perseus Veil.  Legion is also clear and definitie proof that the Geth are not just a hive mind.  You are basically trying to find excuses to deny the Geth the right to exist and to justify an entire galaxy of organics oppossing their existence.

That's funny, because I clearly stated that I gave the geth a second chance on Rannoch for the quarians and geth to try and live in peace. I am not denying the geth anything that they haven't forfeited themselves. Do you seriously think the geth sided with the Reapers thinking that organics should see this as justified?

There is no evidence that the Geth want to extinguish everyone in the Galaxy.  At worst they protect the Perseus Veil just like the Council protects Citadel Space.  You make it sound like the Geth could just come over to Citadel Space for vacation and nothing would happen to them.

No the Geth sided with the Reapers the second time because if they didn't, the same people that have been trying to wipe them out because they dared to obtain sentience would have finally succeed.  And if you had Legion as a squadmate, the Quarians would have finally succeed in part because Legion decided to trust a human (Shepard).

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...


Overthrowing your oppressors and allowing them to live and escape is not oppressor.

You are right. But killing billions, falls under the "oppressor". You ever read the planet Adas' description? Hm, thought not.

And I already said I have sympathy for Tali and Admiral Koris because they are sensible.  If there are other Quarians who are sensible then I would have sympathy for them as well.  However, judging by the rest of the Quarian leadership who were militant in their beliefs the Geth had no right to live, it sure seemd to me that most of the Quarians shared their views.

Insanity. The Quarian populace has had no reason to trust the Geth at all.

I always choose to save both Quarians and Geth and have only selected the destroy option once just to see it.  The OP asked for a choice.  And when faced with that choice like I said, I side with the people who didn't start the conflict which is the Geth.

Again, whoever cast the first stone, does not matter.

It also does not excuse killing billions of innocent people. Military to non-combatant ratio.

[Xilizhra]

Also, please note that the Geth lose fully 1/3rd of their strength if you destroy Heretic Station.

That's because the quarians can kill them more easily when the actual war starts, not because of direct losses from the heretics.