4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

1) Did you even read my post

2) Did you read deinon's last? It's kind of hard to see the geth as 100% victim when they reject peaceful communication attempts by killing your diplomatic staff...

I am not suggesting they are 100% victims.  I am suggesting any perceived hostility is the result of their experience with the Quarians.  What is the Quarians excuse for wanting to wipe them out?  The point is the Quarians had no legitimate reason to want to exterminate a whole sentience species.  The Geth have a reason to fear organics.  There is a difference between making the wrong decision for no good reason (Quarians) and making the wrong reasons for a sensible reason (fear that organics want to wipe them out like the Quarians).  That doesn't mean the Geth are 100% victims.  It merely explains why I side with them over the Quarians which is the point of the OP.  LIke I said, when I actually play the game, I always choose to save both.

These whole diplomatic mission thing is based on human accounts.  You can't tell from the codex whether the geth destroying these ships represented the majority or whether they were a minority.  Further you can't tel whether they are even aware that the organics come in peace.  That is the account of the organics not the geth unless I missed Legion commenting on it which is possible.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

I am not suggesting they are 100% victims.  I am suggesting any perceived hostility is the result of their experience with the Quarians.  What is the Quarians excuse for wanting to wipe them out?  The point is the Quarians had no legitimate reason to want to exterminate a whole sentience species.

Sir, the Council had a ban on AI. That ban, greatly affected the Quarian's reaction to the Geth's awakening.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Te geth were already alive before the reaper code. That code only accelerated the process (words from Shepard).

They were not at the same level of other organic species. The Reaper code made them so that they had individuality and actually became like other races. In other words, the Geth were a lesser life before the code.

This is true. A single Geth runtime has an intellect on par with a worker ant. A hundred go into a standard combat chassis, but together they lack the facilities to even decide for themselves whether shooting at you is right or wrong - they're about as smart as a varren. Intellect rises as platforms network. 1183 on one platform gets you Legion - clearly intelligent, but if you told those same 1183 runtimes to operate an entire cruiser on their own, I'd bet we're back down to varren intellect again... if that.

Pre-upgrade, the nature of Geth sapience is... fluid. Post-upgrade, the writers don't even try to explain the change. Does each runtime become self-aware, or each platform? We simply don't know.

I looked it up. From what I can tell, each individual runtime becomes a fully sapiant intelligence.
According to Legion and Raan's commentary on the Reaper Code, a single, unlinked geth processing runtime is what they call a single "Unit," and in ME3, Legion states that a single "Unit" with the upgrades becomes a fully evolved A.I. As opposed to a hundred "Units" working in conjunction to run and operate a physical platform, now only one "Unit" per platform is required, leaving 99 other "Units" to devote resources to other jobs and pilot more platforms then was ever possible before, as the previous software limitations of their processing power are completely broken, now that they can operate individually. This efficancy increase stacks on top of each-other repeatedly until the end result: The geth litterally become at least 300 - 400% more effective then before.

No clue how it spontaniously upgrades the software to such a high-level processing ability so quickly without no backlash or side-effects what-so-ever. But there it is.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 05:05 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

Sir, the Council had a ban on AI. That ban, greatly affected the Quarian's reaction to the Geth's awakening.

Sir, we have no evidence that ban existed prior to the Geth war. I point you to the relevant Citadel Archive, pointing out how there were AIs present on official naval vessels and only deactivated after the Geth war. Good day sir.

[tevix]

@Remydat

If it's written in a novel that geth shot down diplomatic ships (not armed)...it's kind of canon. It's not human account, it's simply canon.

Also, you failed to adress any points in my first post towards you.

Billions to millions = mindless slaughter of innocence. Not self defense.

The geth judged being turned against the galaxy just to survive the quarians was ok.

Legion LIED to you.

How is it ok to side with the geth after all that?

[tevix]

Also, forgot to add.

The quarians alive now are the not the same quarians. They shouldn't be held responsible for what their ancestors did.

I'd be willing to bet, though, that a good number of programs from the morning war era are still around. I CAN hold them responsible.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...


The Geth killed Quarians because the Quarians wanted them all dead?  What were they suppose to do, just wound them?  

And I am asking you what would happen to a Geth ship entering Organic Space?  And I was referring to evidence that the majority of Geth opposed organics. The codex you are referring to does not specify whether the Geth shooting down organic ships were a minority or part of the majority.  They are organic accounts and we know most organics don't make the distinction between Geth because from their perspective all Geth are the same. 

The fact is when an organic (Sheppard) reasoned with them, they listened.  On the flip side, Gherel was willing to sacrifice Tali and Shepard and then when you choose the option to have them coexist, Admiral Gherel has to be threatened to back down from continuing the fight.

The original Geth (which means to serve) opposed his termination because he felt he could still serve.  He asked what he did wrong.  The Geth started taking up arms when Quarians sympathetic to their cause were slaughtered.  To the point that centuries later, only the Geth had preserved the memories of those sympathetic Quarians.  The point is any mistrust and hostility from the Geth is the direct result of what the Quarians did to them.  Any hostility ad mistrust of teh Geth is largely due to them opposing being terminated.  You are trying to morally equate two things that are drastically different. The Quarians killed them because they considered them unworthy of life.  The Geth killed the Quarians and other organics because they opposed the Geth right to live.  See the difference yet?

Yes. Perhaps try to find a peaceful solution sometime within a 300 year span.

They have different views,yet are very similar and are indeed both considered Geth. Ships were sent in to try to establish peaceful talks. A non-hostile Geth ship would be allowed to enter organic space. If not only out of simple curiosity. Would and should organics be cautious? Yes. Just as the Geth would be. We had our comments about the Heretics not being around for the entire 300 years.

Ok so your pointing out a single Admiral willing to take the chance to wipe out his enemy for good and what? Without Shepard or with Shepard's consent the same Legion can help the Geth kill all of the Quarians. The same Geth that had already been willing to sacrifice their freewill and help harvest all civilized organic life.

The Quarians opposed the Geth. That did not give the Geth the right to mistrust and kill any and all organics. Shepard was their first attempt... and look what happen. Imagine if they would have pushed for a peaceful solution anytime before that. Who is to say they would not have found a Geth sympathizer. Just look at BSN. Science vessels are not opposing the Geth's right to live.

Is what the Quarians did during/beginning the mourning war wrong? yes. Is what the Geth did in retaliation to the Quarians wrong? Yes.  Neither should be justified. The Geth have brought mistrust to themselves. They mistrust all organics because of a single race. Paranoia. If there were sympathetic Quarians then,why assume there are not any now? Why assume no organic will accept you,when you have proof stating otherwise?

Outlawing the unsanctioned work on potentially dangerous AI's,is not the same as opposing or oppressing.

Cerberus Overlord.

Modifié par Rip504, 18 mars 2013 - 05:10 .

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Sir, the Council had a ban on AI. That ban, greatly affected the Quarian's reaction to the Geth's awakening.

Sir, we have no evidence that ban existed prior to the Geth war. I point you to the relevant Citadel Archive, pointing out how there were AIs present on official naval vessels and only deactivated after the Geth war. Good day sir.

Um, sir.

Tali says back in ME1 that they remained mindful of the Council's laws on AI when creating the Geth ...

Have a good day, sir.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...


Overthrowing your oppressors and allowing them to live and escape is not oppressor.

You are right. But killing billions, falls under the "oppressor". You ever read the planet Adas' description? Hm, thought not.

And I already said I have sympathy for Tali and Admiral Koris because they are sensible.  If there are other Quarians who are sensible then I would have sympathy for them as well.  However, judging by the rest of the Quarian leadership who were militant in their beliefs the Geth had no right to live, it sure seemd to me that most of the Quarians shared their views.

Insanity. The Quarian populace has had no reason to trust the Geth at all.

I always choose to save both Quarians and Geth and have only selected the destroy option once just to see it.  The OP asked for a choice.  And when faced with that choice like I said, I side with the people who didn't start the conflict which is the Geth.

Again, whoever cast the first stone, does not matter.

It also does not excuse killing billions of innocent people. Military to non-combatant ratio.

Are you talking about the Morning War?  It was war, how exactly do you think the Geth could have spared them when the Quarians as proven in ME3 use their Civilian Fleets for war as well?  The fact is when the war was won and the Quarians fled, the Geth did not wipe them out when they could have. 

And what about Adas.  The entry here says it was overrun when the Geth rebelled.  Is that uncommon in war?  By the time the war started the Quarians had basically killed most of the Quarians sympathetic to the Geth so I am not sure what your beef is here.

Whoever cast the first stone most certainly matters.  There is no evidence the Geth would not have lived in peace with the Quarians if the Quarians had not decided to wipe them out.  If you shoot at me and I shoot back and kill you then yeah it does matter that you shot first because I have grounds to claim self defense. 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Adas

[DeinonSlayer]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Sir, the Council had a ban on AI. That ban, greatly affected the Quarian's reaction to the Geth's awakening.

Sir, we have no evidence that ban existed prior to the Geth war. I point you to the relevant Citadel Archive, pointing out how there were AIs present on official naval vessels and only deactivated after the Geth war. Good day sir.

ME1 dialogue says it did, and this is supported in the books. AI research was illegal. The Quarians' modifications to the Geth back when they were simply a networked system of VI's "skirted the boundaries of the law," but did not break it.

From Mass Effect: Revelation (Karpyshyn, 2007), Chapter Eight:

Attempting to develop artificial intelligence was one of the few things specifically banned in the Citadel Conventions. Developing purely synthetic life, whether cloned or manufactured, was considered a crime against the entire galaxy.

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence - such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge - would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn't merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position.

Three hundred years ago, long before humanity appeared on the galactic scene, the quarian species had created a race of synthetic servants to serve as an expandable and expendable labor source. The geth, as they were called, were not true AIs: their neural networks were developed in a way that was highly restrictive and self-limiting. Despite this precaution, the geth eventually turned on their quarian masters, validating all the dire warnings and predictions.

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

I am not suggesting they are 100% victims.  I am suggesting any perceived hostility is the result of their experience with the Quarians.  What is the Quarians excuse for wanting to wipe them out?  The point is the Quarians had no legitimate reason to want to exterminate a whole sentience species.

Sir, the Council had a ban on AI. That ban, greatly affected the Quarian's reaction to the Geth's awakening.

So you are saying that the Galaxy as represented by the Citadel wanted to deny people existence and so that somehow makes it ok that the Quarians wanted to wipe out that existence.  You are helping my cause. The Geth were so oppressed that they were not even suppose to exist according to the laws of the Citadel.  So how can you equate the Geth postion with that of organics?

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

And what about Adas.  The entry here says it was overrun when the Geth rebelled.  Is that uncommon in war?  By the time the war started the Quarians had basically killed most of the Quarians sympathetic to the Geth so I am not sure what your beef is here.

Adas was a mining planet.

You honestly think that a small population of miners fought Geth with all their military grade weapons?

Overrun, is the key word. Miners are not soldiers.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

There is no evidence that the Geth want to extinguish everyone in the Galaxy.  At worst they protect the Perseus Veil just like the Council protects Citadel Space.  You make it sound like the Geth could just come over to Citadel Space for vacation and nothing would happen to them.

I was talking about their second submission to the Reapers which you respond to below. As for their post-Morning War pre-Mass Effect actions, no they don't want to kill everyone. They want to be left alone and will kill anyone who challenges that wish. That is not hard to understand but at the same time is proof that the quarians could not have just returned peacefully to Rannoch.

No the Geth sided with the Reapers the second time because if they didn't, the same people that have been trying to wipe them out because they dared to obtain sentience would have finally succeed.  And if you had Legion as a squadmate, the Quarians would have finally succeed in part because Legion decided to trust a human (Shepard).

So they stayed on Rannoch and didn't expect the quarians to try and retake it? While shooting down any attempts at diplomacy? Face it: the geth didn't care a lick about the rest of the galaxy. They wanted to be left alone so they could build their giant concensus and attain perfect race understanding.

[sr2josh]

Why?! With the exception of Legion, we never see anything other than hostility towards all organics and collaborating with the Reapers when it comes to the Geth.  It's only after Shep gives them Reaper upgrades that the Geth support the organic races.  I'd choose the Quarians.

Modifié par Makai81, 18 mars 2013 - 05:18 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

Tali says back in ME1 that they remained mindful of the Council's laws on AI when creating the Geth ...

Have a good day, sir.

I remember Tali's dialog in great detail. However, with the Archive being what it was, and the individual laws never being mentioned by Tali, we can only come to the conclusion that there was indeed not a total ban on AI. Almost definately regulations, but no complete and utter ban. Otherwise, know AIs integrated into the crew of a turian frigate.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

If it's written in a novel that geth shot down diplomatic ships (not armed)...it's kind of canon. It's not human account, it's simply canon.

Also, you failed to adress any points in my first post towards you.

Billions to millions = mindless slaughter of innocence. Not self defense.

The geth judged being turned against the galaxy just to survive the quarians was ok.

Legion LIED to you.

How is it ok to side with the geth after all that?

What novel are you referring to.  My point is unless that statement comes fom the writer in his role as all seeing eye of the universe he creates then it is merely a reflection of the organic position.  We don't really get the Geth side of things until Legion appears.  Before that, all we are seeing is the organic view of synthetic life.

[Megaton_Hope]

Rip504 wrote...

Do Geth have dreams.?

You mean like do they count electric sheep, or do they think "one day I'll climb mount Everest without an oxygen tank"?

Or like, calculate another million digits of Pi, or something.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

The fact is when the war was won and the Quarians fled, the Geth did not wipe them out when they could have. 


 If you shoot at me and I shoot back and kill you then yeah it does matter that you shot first because I have grounds to claim self defense. 

Fact. Geth killed Billions.
No it does not give you the right to kill billions and claim self-defense.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

If it's written in a novel that geth shot down diplomatic ships (not armed)...it's kind of canon. It's not human account, it's simply canon.

Also, you failed to adress any points in my first post towards you.

Billions to millions = mindless slaughter of innocence. Not self defense.

The geth judged being turned against the galaxy just to survive the quarians was ok.

Legion LIED to you.

How is it ok to side with the geth after all that?

What novel are you referring to.  My point is unless that statement comes fom the writer in his role as all seeing eye of the universe he creates then it is merely a reflection of the organic position.  We don't really get the Geth side of things until Legion appears.  Before that, all we are seeing is the organic view of synthetic life.

Mass Effect: Revelation. I quoted the relevant section in its entirety above.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 mars 2013 - 05:15 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

So you are saying that the Galaxy as represented by the Citadel wanted to deny people existence and so that somehow makes it ok that the Quarians wanted to wipe out that existence.

Keelah, do you know that you can reactivate Geth, after they are deactivated? Who's to say the Quarians would turn them back on after consulting with the Council about it? I can headcanon, too.

You are helping my cause. The Geth were so oppressed that they were not even suppose to exist according to the laws of the Citadel.  So how can you equate the Geth postion with that of organics?

I am against that ban, just so you know.

The Council played a major part in the Morning War. The Quarians were correct to fear them.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Makai81 wrote...

Why?! With the exception of Legion, we never see anything other than hostility towards all organics and collaborating with the Reapers when it comes to the Geth. I'd choose the Quarians.

Let's rewrite this from the Geth's perspective, shall we?

Why!? With the exception of commander shepard and his crew, we have never seen anything other than hostility towards all AI and collaborating with others to utterly destroy us. I'd choose the Geth.

(Note, my avatar should make clear who I'd actually choose.)

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

I remember Tali's dialog in great detail. However, with the Archive being what it was, and the individual laws never being mentioned by Tali, we can only come to the conclusion that there was indeed not a total ban on AI. Almost definately regulations, but no complete and utter ban. Otherwise, know AIs integrated into the crew of a turian frigate.

Sir, please look at DS's post.

have a nice night.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

And what about Adas.  The entry here says it was overrun when the Geth rebelled.  Is that uncommon in war?  By the time the war started the Quarians had basically killed most of the Quarians sympathetic to the Geth so I am not sure what your beef is here.

Adas was a mining planet.

You honestly think that a small population of miners fought Geth with all their military grade weapons?

Overrun, is the key word. Miners are not soldiers.

You act like it was military people only that try to terminate geth.  Regular quarians were trying to deactivate their Geth units.  So again, this rebellion could have easily been Geth mining units with no sophiscated weapons resisting attempts by the miners to deactive them.  This entry sounds like the beginning of the war ie when the Geth didn't have a bunch of weapons.  Remember the Sniper Rifle Legion uses was picked up by an argricultural geth unit that defended itself and the rest of the units when an attempt to terminate them happened.  So the morning war started with a bunch of domestic geth rebelling.

[tevix]

@Remydat

You're choice to ignore my entire argument to question one snippet about a novel which was already posted just shows one thing:

You are dodging arguments like agents dodge bullets in the matrix.

I give up.

[Rip504]

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