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[sr2josh]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Why?! With the exception of Legion, we never see anything other than hostility towards all organics and collaborating with the Reapers when it comes to the Geth. I'd choose the Quarians.

Let's rewrite this from the Geth's perspective, shall we?

Why!? With the exception of commander shepard and his crew, we have never seen anything other than hostility towards all AI and collaborating with others to utterly destroy us. I'd choose the Geth.

(Note, my avatar should make clear who I'd actually choose.)

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

]Sir, please look at DS's post.

have a nice night.

I'm terribly sorry, but I did. I also own the book. The fact of the matter is, it does not say when the passage was added to the conventions, only that it is there. Laws are not static bodies. And considering it uses the geth war as evidence for that law in the conventions, I'd argue that it would actually support my view that it was amended into the conventions.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

You act like it was military people only that try to terminate geth.

You act like the Geth never killed an innocent before...

Regular quarians were trying to deactivate their Geth units.  So again, this rebellion could have easily been Geth mining units with no sophiscated weapons resisting attempts by the miners to deactive them.

Mining units overunning and killing the Quarian populace... Yeah, keep saying "self-defense" as you drift off to sleep tonight.

This entry sounds like the beginning of the war ie when the Geth didn't have a bunch of weapons.  Remember the Sniper Rifle Legion uses was picked up by an argricultural geth unit that defended itself and the rest of the units when an attempt to terminate them happened.  So the morning war started with a bunch of domestic geth rebelling.

Overrun. The Quarians were overrun! The Geth could have left! They had no reason to kill them.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

So you are saying that the Galaxy as represented by the Citadel wanted to deny people existence and so that somehow makes it ok that the Quarians wanted to wipe out that existence.

Keelah, do you know that you can reactivate Geth, after they are deactivated? Who's to say the Quarians would turn them back on after consulting with the Council about it? I can headcanon, too.

You are helping my cause. The Geth were so oppressed that they were not even suppose to exist according to the laws of the Citadel.  So how can you equate the Geth postion with that of organics?

I am against that ban, just so you know.

The Council played a major part in the Morning War. The Quarians were correct to fear them.

The Quarians were correct to fear who?  A bunch of domesticated machines who simply wanted to exist.  And it is not head cannon, again if you go into the Reaper servers, the Geth Unit is asking he has to be terminated, he can still serve.  There is nothing there to imply that the action the Quarian is about to do is reversible.  Further why would Quarians have opposed it if they could have been turned on?  Why would Quarians kill over Quarians who opposed terminating the Geth if it was reversible?  So sorry bro, your head cannon makes no sense.  The Quarians wanted to terminate sentient life.  So much so that other reasonable Quarians opposed them to the point that they were brutally murdered by other Quarians for such opposition.

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

I'm terribly sorry, but I did. I also own the book. The fact of the matter is, it does not say when the passage was added to the conventions, only that it is there. Laws are not static bodies. And considering it uses the geth war as evidence for that law in the conventions, I'd argue that it would actually support my view that it was amended into the conventions.

Note it was amended.

Why would Tali say they skirted around the bounds of the law, if it wasn't against the law?

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

So sorry bro, your head cannon makes no sense.

Uh, brah, what is a head cannon?

[DeinonSlayer]

Khelish wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

I remember Tali's dialog in great detail. However, with the Archive being what it was, and the individual laws never being mentioned by Tali, we can only come to the conclusion that there was indeed not a total ban on AI. Almost definately regulations, but no complete and utter ban. Otherwise, know AIs integrated into the crew of a turian frigate.

Sir, please look at DS's post.

have a nice night.

Also, if you talk to Gianna Parasini in ME1, asking about the companies operating on Noveria, she says that Synthetic Insights is one of the few companies in the entire galaxy permitted by the Council to research artificial intelligence in spite of the Council's otherwise-categorical AI ban. It stands to reason that the sapient LOKIs seen in the Citadel Archives were similarly sanctioned; that the Council revoked whatever waiver was issued to permit their existence after the Geth uprising on Rannoch (the timestamp puts it one year after the end of the Morning War).

Pure speculation from this point forward, but as I see it, it makes sense that there would be firms seeking to compete with the Quarians. The Geth would have been an economic boon to them; others would want to try to create a similar automated work force in order to keep up. Given that the mechs seen in the Archives have five fingers, and humans were not on the galactic scene yet, it's likely that LOKIs were originally made by either the Batarians or the Asari (who actually had a Council seat, and a say in who these waivers would be issued to). Hahne-Kedar (a human company) came around centuries later, re-building non-sentient LOKIs from old designs, which we then see in Mass Effect 2.

[tevix]

@Remydat

I know I said I gave up but...seriously?

The quarians murdered billions of their own people? Seriously?

Just...no.

Would also REALLY love to know how you justify the geth being ok with being weapons of war for the reapers just to give the quarians what for.

Also, for the second time...the quarians of present day ME aren't the same as the ones that existed during the morning war.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

You act like it was military people only that try to terminate geth.

You act like the Geth never killed an innocent before...

Regular quarians were trying to deactivate their Geth units.  So again, this rebellion could have easily been Geth mining units with no sophiscated weapons resisting attempts by the miners to deactive them.

Mining units overunning and killing the Quarian populace... Yeah, keep saying "self-defense" as you drift off to sleep tonight.

This entry sounds like the beginning of the war ie when the Geth didn't have a bunch of weapons.  Remember the Sniper Rifle Legion uses was picked up by an argricultural geth unit that defended itself and the rest of the units when an attempt to terminate them happened.  So the morning war started with a bunch of domestic geth rebelling.

Overrun. The Quarians were overrun! The Geth could have left! They had no reason to kill them.

You are free to interpret overrun as you like.  However, when I see clear evidence that the Geth did not rebell until after Quarians started murdering the other Quarians who opposed their termination, I think it is fairly obvious, that by the time the rebellion occurred there were few Quarians left who did not want the Geth exterminated.  This is also proven by the fact that the Quarians living today had no clue that there ever were Quarians who opposed this extermination.  So it is far more likely, the Quarian minings attempted to exterminate their mining units and those mining units in self defense killed them which from the biased Quarian perspective means that those evil Geth overran them.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

The Quarians were correct to fear who?  A bunch of domesticated machines who simply wanted to exist.

The Council. Read Ekuna.

And it is not head cannon,

Yes, it is.

again if you go into the Reaper servers, the Geth Unit is asking he has to be terminated, he can still serve. There is nothing there to imply that the action the Quarian is about to do is reversible.  Further why would Quarians have opposed it if they could have been turned on?  Why would Quarians kill over Quarians who opposed terminating the Geth if it was reversible?  So sorry bro, your head cannon makes no sense.  The Quarians wanted to terminate sentient life.  So much so that other reasonable Quarians opposed them to the point that they were brutally murdered by other Quarians for such opposition.

I said, they could have started with that intention of turning them on in time. My headcanon makes more sense than your "Oh nOES! teh geths never killed an unarmed personz!!!"

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

Note it was amended.

Why would Tali say they skirted around the bounds of the law, if it wasn't against the law?

As best as I can tell, they were skirting regulations. They weren't working with the citadel on the Geth development, and I assumed that mean't they were simply skirting citadel regs. We have evidence there was no total ban before the Geth war, and no evidence to the contrary.

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Note it was amended.

Why would Tali say they skirted around the bounds of the law, if it wasn't against the law?

As best as I can tell, they were skirting regulations. They weren't working with the citadel on the Geth development, and I assumed that mean't they were simply skirting citadel regs. We have evidence there was no total ban before the Geth war, and no evidence to the contrary.

Tali says "laws", not regulations. There is a clear difference between the too.

[sr2josh]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

[LieutenantSarcasm]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Also, if you talk to Gianna Parasini in ME1, asking about the companies operating on Noveria, she says that Synthetic Insights is one of the few companies in the entire galaxy permitted by the Council to research artificial intelligence in spite of the Council's otherwise-categorical AI ban. It stands to reason that the sapient LOKIs seen in the Citadel Archives were similarly sanctioned; that the Council revoked whatever waiver was issued to permit their existence after the Geth uprising on Rannoch (the timestamp puts it one year after the end of the Morning War).

Pure speculation from this point forward, but as I see it, it makes sense that there would be firms seeking to compete with the Quarians. The Geth would have been an economic boon to them; others would want to try to create a similar automated work force in order to keep up. Given that the mechs seen in the Archives have five fingers, and humans were not on the galactic scene yet, it's likely that LOKIs were originally made by either the Batarians or the Asari (who actually had a Council seat, and a say in who these waivers would be issued to). Hahne-Kedar (a human company) came around centuries later, re-building non-sentient LOKIs from old designs, which we then see in Mass Effect 2.

You make a good argument, but once again, that is chronologically after the geth war. Mind you, the permit is for research only, while the AIs seen on the frigate are serial-production units. There is a wee bit of a difference there.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

Tali says "laws", not regulations. There is a clear difference between the too.

In non-courtroom speech, '"laws" is fully interchangeable with regulations. This is especially true considering the language barrier there. You can't argue purely on semantics in a informal, language different speech. Aka why the Adas is a "rifle".

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

I know I said I gave up but...seriously?

The quarians murdered billions of their own people? Seriously?

Just...no.

Would also REALLY love to know how you justify the geth being ok with being weapons of war for the reapers just to give the quarians what for.

Also, for the second time...the quarians of present day ME aren't the same as the ones that existed during the morning war.

Who said they murdered billions of their own people.  I said they murdered other Quarians who opposed the extermination of the Geth.  I suspect once Quarians understood if you oppose the termination, you will die, they stopped opposing it.  Hell, we were shown Geth units offerring to surrender in order to save their sympathetic Quarian master only for that Quarian master to still be murdered.

Look, you guys can choose the Quarians but the mission where we go into the Geth minds made it pretty obvious, the Quarians were the aggressors so much so they were willing to murder their own.  It also made clear that Geth Units were willing to die for their Quarian masters.  The conclusion I drew is the rebellion did not happen until all the sympathetic Quarians were dead and thus with no reason to not fight (ie they no longer had any sympathetic Quarians to protect), the Geth rebelled and took up arms against their would be murderers. 

And the Quarians of the present day share the same hatred.  They grew up believing the lies as evidenced that Tali and Admiral Ran were shccked to learn that some Quarians originally opposed the termination.  From the time you meet the Quarian leadership, the only one with any desire to admit they were at fault was Admiral Koris.

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Tali says "laws", not regulations. There is a clear difference between the too.

In non-courtroom speech, '"laws" is fully interchangeable with regulations. This is especially true considering the language barrier there. You can't argue purely on semantics in a informal, language different speech. Aka why the Adas is a "rifle".

Even if, those "regulations" still played a part in the Morning War.

The Council had a hand to play.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Khelish wrote...

Even if, those "regulations" still played a part in the Morning War.

The Council had a hand to play.

I'm not denying that. Just don't believe that there was a total ban. The council clearly had a part, even if they tried to brush the issue under a rug.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Sir, you are given all that info from a biased source looking for a pity card.

Legion's mission in ME3 is not helping your case.

[DeinonSlayer]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Tali says "laws", not regulations. There is a clear difference between the too.

In non-courtroom speech, '"laws" is fully interchangeable with regulations. This is especially true considering the language barrier there. You can't argue purely on semantics in a informal, language different speech. Aka why the Adas is a "rifle".

ME1 dialogue:

Tali: "The Geth were originally created to serve as an automated manual labor force. Initially, their intelligence was as limited as any VI. Over time, we made small modifications to their programming to allow them to perform more varied and complex tasks, bringing them closer and closer to true AI status."

Shepard: "I thought AI's were illegal in Citadel Space."

Tali: "This wasn't true AI research. We may have been skirting the bounds of the law, but we never did anything that was actually illegal. The changes were so insignificant, so gradual, that we were able to control them... or so we thought. But one thing we underestimated was the power of the neural network. A million Geth thinking simultaneously created an inherently unstable matrix."

[Khelish]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Even if, those "regulations" still played a part in the Morning War.

The Council had a hand to play.

I'm not denying that. Just don't believe that there was a total ban. The council clearly had a part, even if they tried to brush the issue under a rug.

Oh, dang, then why are we fighting? 

[tevix]

@Remydat

You did, in fact imply that quarians killed billions of their own.

When presented with the argument that the amount of quarians killed (billions) can only happen by the geth killing innocents and non-combatents you countered with:

"Well, the quarians killed anyone who sympathized with the geth".

Did you also ever consider maybe legion/the geth would skew history in their favor? Legion is trying to attain sympathy for his people knowing full well if he fails they will die.

They were willing to become tools for the reapers to win. They are now the heretics.

They cannot be trusted.

Finally, not every quarian wants to kill geth. This is evident in ME2 as well.

[remydat]

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

... *sigh*, and now you lost all respect from me.

I'm done with you.