4712 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

If I had to choose one I'd choose the Geth in a heartbeat. Would leave the Quarians in the mess they created

[LieutenantSarcasm]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
ME1 dialogue:

Tali: "The Geth were originally created to serve as an automated manual labor force. Initially, their intelligence was as limited as any VI. Over time, we made small modifications to their programming to allow them to perform more varied and complex tasks, bringing them closer and closer to true AI status."

Shepard: "I thought AI's were illegal in Citadel Space."

Tali: "This wasn't true AI research. We may have been skirting the bounds of the law, but we never did anything that was actually illegal. The changes were so insignificant, so gradual, that we were able to control them... or so we thought. But one thing we underestimated was the power of the neural network. A million Geth thinking simultaneously created an inherently unstable matrix."

See above post.
It does never mention what was actuall legal then, they can still be skirting the law without a ban. Tali never comments on a ban, rather on how the AIs were developed. Although the council really should have been more proactive with this.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

You did, in fact imply that quarians killed billions of their own.

When presented with the argument that the amount of quarians killed (billions) can only happen by the geth killing innocents and non-combatents you countered with:

"Well, the quarians killed anyone who sympathized with the geth".

Did you also ever consider maybe legion/the geth would skew history in their favor? Legion is trying to attain sympathy for his people knowing full well if he fails they will die.

They were willing to become tools for the reapers to win. They are now the heretics.

They cannot be trusted.

Finally, not every quarian wants to kill geth. This is evident in ME2 as well.

No you are confusing two different things.  On one hand I suspect any Quarians living at the time the rebellion started were not symapathetic to the Geth because they were all killed prior to the start of the Morning War.

On the other hand, I suspect so many died because the Quarians WOULDN'T GIVE UP.  As I said, ME3 proves that the Quarians are willing to use civillians in war as Admiral Koris is in charge of the Civilain Fleet and is engaged in War.  In any war innocents and non-combatants die.  This is especially true if you throw them all at the enemy as the Quarians appear willing to do.  What evidence is there that the Geth specifically targeted innocents and non-combatants.  This was guerilla war for an entire planet and I suspect everyone was fighting.

Once again, it was proven that Geth Units were willing to die for Geth sympathetic to them so why should I believe they just wantonly killed innocents.  As for Legion lying, sure I suppose since it doesn't say he wasn't lying that it is possible but come on dude, you are arguing just to argue if you are seriously going to believe that what we saw in the servers is a lie when no where in the game or in interviews is it ever implied he is lying.  I am pretty sure if Legion was lying that it would have been revelaed a long time ago.  Why do people have a need to try and make up excuses for the Quarians.  They were wrong and lost their home because of it.

[sr2josh]

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The point is that the Geth didn't need Rannoch for anything.  Rannoch's environment actually depended on organics like the Quarians due to the absence of insect-like species.  The Geth could have very easily left Rannoch and settled anywhere in the galaxy.

BTW, yes I'm American since you are so interested and some members of my family have native heritage.  Not sure why you went there.

Modifié par Makai81, 18 mars 2013 - 05:48 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The geth don't plan to settle on Rannoch. Their ultimate goal is to build a giant consensus space station where all geth runtimes can be housed. It's unclear why they are on Rannoch, since in Mass Effect 3 they CALL THEMSELVES CARETAKERS. They don't even identify Rannoch as their home planet.

By the way, some of the issue here is inconsistent storytelling on the part of BioWare in regards to the quarians and the geth.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 05:49 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The geth don't plan to settle on Rannoch. Their ultimate goal is to build a giant consensus space station where all geth runtimes can be housed. It's unclear why they are on Rannoch, since in Mass Effect 3 they CALL THEMSELVES CARETAKERS. They don't even identify Rannoch as their home planet.

By the way, some of the issue here is inconsistent storytelling on the part of BioWare in regards to the quarians and the geth.

I thought the reason was clear, the position of the Geth is still awkward for them, and they are maintaining rannoch incase of a peace treaty. They still respect the Quarians and what they built, in a really odd way.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

You're choice to ignore my entire argument to question one snippet about a novel which was already posted just shows one thing:

You are dodging arguments like agents dodge bullets in the matrix.

I give up.

Do you see how many people I am trying to have a debate with? It is hard to keep up with all these different arguments as I am not a geth capable of simulataneous processing.

What argument to you think I am dodging. Never mind, I see your first post now.  I will respond shortly but in future you can't expect people to see every single post when they are being barraged with posts by a bunch of people at once.

[tevix]

@Remydat

No strategy of war accounts for reducing a population of billions to millions without wanton slaughter of innocents and non-combatants. Period.

What legion showed you in the server may have happened, what I'm saying is he didn't show you the parts he knew would be bad. Lies of omission. It's revealed in and of itself, if you actually think about it. He ONLY show you the "Pity me" parts. Showing quarians killing quarian sympathizing geth just paints the military quarians (present day) in a bad light. I side with legion right up until he goes back on his ward by using reaper code to upgrade his people

Whatever his reason, he lied. I cannot trust him.

And no matter how much legion might be an ok guy, the rest of the geth still voted to become tools for the reapers. That makes them the heretics, and therefore the enemy.

[cyrslash1974]

Same question, but put differently : a house is burning. Inside the house : a human and a computer. Who decide you to save ?

For me, the geths are advanced "tools", and even if quarians are not perfect, they are "alive". I would pick them.

[remydat]

Makai81 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The point is that the Geth didn't need Rannoch for anything.  Rannoch's environment actually depended on organics like the Quarians due to the absence of insect-like species.  The Geth could have very easily left Rannoch and settled anywhere in the galaxy.

BTW, yes I'm American since you are so interested and some members of my family have native heritage.  Not sure why you went there.

Well maybe the Quarians should have though about that before trying to kill the geth.  You lose a way you lose terroritory. Expecting the victors to be nice is absurd.

The Geth have lived in Rannoch for centuries.  It is their home regardless as to whether you think they have any attachment to it or not.  And my point is it would be like asking Americans now to leave because this land orginally belonged to the Native Americans.  No one would actually take that argument seriously so why should I take this one seriously?  So I went there because I feel people are making arguments that they would never make if the Geth were organic.

[CronoDragoon]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

I thought the reason was clear, the position of the Geth is still awkward for them, and they are maintaining rannoch incase of a peace treaty. They still respect the Quarians and what they built, in a really odd way.

A peace treaty brought by the diplomatic ships that they categorically shot down?

This is what I mean that the portrayal of the geth/quarians isn't consistent across all the games. If we take ME3 seriously that the geth ultimately wanted reconciliation with the quarians then their earlier actions make little sense.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 05:58 .

[tevix]

@Cronodragon

Or we could just assume that the geth are lying and only suddenly want peace because they are facing imminent destruction.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

No strategy of war accounts for reducing a population of billions to millions without wanton slaughter of innocents and non-combatants. Period.

What legion showed you in the server may have happened, what I'm saying is he didn't show you the parts he knew would be bad. Lies of omission. It's revealed in and of itself, if you actually think about it. He ONLY show you the "Pity me" parts. Showing quarians killing quarian sympathizing geth just paints the military quarians (present day) in a bad light. I side with legion right up until he goes back on his ward by using reaper code to upgrade his people

Whatever his reason, he lied. I cannot trust him.

And no matter how much legion might be an ok guy, the rest of the geth still voted to become tools for the reapers. That makes them the heretics, and therefore the enemy.

The Quarians have been telling you their sob story for centuries.  Legion showed us the Geth side which is the side that has never been told from the Geth perspective.  Did the Quarians ever tell you they murdered their own?  Did they tell you all the Geth wanted was to live?  Let me ask you, should humans all be wiped out because the Illusive Man was a dick?  Why are you not upset Admiral Gherel was going to wipe you off the face of the earth along with Tali?  You seem to be holding the Geth to a higher standard than you are organics as if Organics are not capable of lying.

The rest of the Geth voted to live.  They needed the Reapers to do it because the Quarians were finally going to make good on their centuries long attempts at genocide.  Sorry bro, but if someone who has tried to exterminate me for centuries looks like they will succeed then I will accept assistance from whoever offers it.  That is a perfectly organic thing to do.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Cronodragon

Or we could just assume that the geth are lying and only suddenly want peace because they are facing imminent destruction.

Or we could assume that the Geth who shot down those ships were the eventual heretics.  Why do we assume this action was sanctioned by the majority? Again, as far as I can tell the account is an account told by organics.  Does Legion or anyone from the Geth side confirm that it was an action carried out by the consensus?

[sr2josh]

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The point is that the Geth didn't need Rannoch for anything.  Rannoch's environment actually depended on organics like the Quarians due to the absence of insect-like species.  The Geth could have very easily left Rannoch and settled anywhere in the galaxy.

BTW, yes I'm American since you are so interested and some members of my family have native heritage.  Not sure why you went there.

Well maybe the Quarians should have though about that before trying to kill the geth.  You lose a way you lose terroritory. Expecting the victors to be nice is absurd.

The Geth have lived in Rannoch for centuries.  It is their home regardless as to whether you think they have any attachment to it or not.  And my point is it would be like asking Americans now to leave because this land orginally belonged to the Native Americans.  No one would actually take that argument seriously so why should I take this one seriously?  So I went there because I feel people are making arguments that they would never make if the Geth were organic.

Your delving into my nationality and heritage does not correspond to a sci-fi argument.  You've lost all credibility.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
Or we could assume that the Geth who shot down those ships were the eventual heretics.  Why do we assume this action was sanctioned by the majority? Again, as far as I can tell the account is an account told by organics.  Does Legion or anyone from the Geth side confirm that it was an action carried out by the consensus?

More specifically, it was told by the author of a book writing in the main character's perspective as a way of expositing backstory. It's legit and not meant to be an "unreliable narrator" type of thing.

The heretics only emerged after Sovereign activated and offered the geth Reaper upgrades, so it doesn't account for the couple hundred years pre-Sovereign attack.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Cronodragon

Or we could just assume that the geth are lying and only suddenly want peace because they are facing imminent destruction.

Or we could assume that the Geth who shot down those ships were the eventual heretics.  Why do we assume this action was sanctioned by the majority? Again, as far as I can tell the account is an account told by organics.  Does Legion or anyone from the Geth side confirm that it was an action carried out by the consensus?

From secondary codex entry: Geth: Heretics
Conversation with the geth programs dubbed "Legion" have brought to light a profound schism in geth society. Where Saren Arterius approached the geth in the dreadnought Sovereign, some of them chose to follow him; most did not. Saren's followers were allowed to leave geth society, but were dubbed "heretics" by those that remained.

The Geth Heretics didn't exist until Saren and Sovereign contacted them, and the decision was made to split off.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

Ok, here's the deal. I used to side with your argument. After getting my a-- handed to me in this thread repeatedly in such a way that my arguments were the equivilant of a pop gun against a battleship I began to rethink it.

Let me point out a few things I couldn't ignore.

1) The quarian population went from billions to 17 millions by the end of the morning war. Billions. The quarians lost BILLIONS. There is simply no way for that to happen without the mindless slaughter of innocents and non-combatants (elderly, children, etc). Self defense cannot justify this.

2) The quarians attacked the geth at rannoch out of desperation. They needed to rearrange the way their fleet and resources were handled and didn't know what else to do. Was direct war without any attempt at peace the best way to get there? Maybe not.

3) Legion told you that the TRUE geth would never accept any handouts from the reapers. They would build their own future with their own hands. If you destroy the collector base, Legion reaffirms this.

In ME3 the "true" geth ally with the reapers to save themselves from the quarians. Legion swore this was something they would never do. By doing this they became the heretics they so despised.

In addition, once the quarians were gone the geth would be turned on the galaxy. They would have the full measure of their upgraded fleet, including their shiny new near unstoppable Dreadnought. The geth deemed this acceptable.

The quarians and the geth are both guilty. I find the quarians slightly less guilty if I am forced to choose between them, now

Again, I used to argue your side. Think about it for a bit. The geth start to look really ugly.

1.  It has been proven the Quarians involve civilains in war.  So the population was so decimated because your ideas of non-combatants is based on the real world.  It is entirely possible this was guerilla warfare on a planetary scale which means the Quarians treated everyone as a soldier.

2.  Not sure I buy this.  They existed for centuries as is.  They could have found a nice garden planet and settled on any planet and made a home.  The fact that they even existed as this massive flotilla instead of biding their time on another planet is proof they didn't want to give up.

3.  Unless Legion is psychic, he had no way of knowing the Geth would face extinction.  There are plenty of things I would never do that I would reconcisder if the human race would become extinct otherwise.  Bascially, Legion said, we would never have sex with that Ugly chic but then when all humans died and only he and the fat chic was left, decided that screwing the ugly chic to save the human race was the right thing to do.  Point is humans change their minds when faced with dire circumstances all the time, why are the Geth not allowed to when their very existence is at stake?  Not allowing them too means you are refusing them what you would so freely allow other humans to do.

4.  Huh, the Quarians are less guilty because they would have freely exterminated all Geth but the Geth in a war they never wanted were simply better at killing Quarians?  Do we have proof the Quarians wanted to surrender and the Geth refused.  Given how militant most of the Quarian leadership are centuries later, I suspect the Quarians continued the fight until they had no choice.  IF they had surrendered with 1 billion people left, I see no evidence the Geth would have eliminated them.  So many died because the Quarians WOULD NOT GIVE UP SO MUCH SO THAT CENTURIES LATER THEY STILL LIVE ON SHIPS WISHING FOR THEIR HOME INSTEAD OF SETTLING ELSEWHERE.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Geth were the stronger force, so them. Realpolitik, simple as that.


If all things are equal, I have to go quarians, because geth technically don't have any civilians.

[remydat]

Makai81 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The point is that the Geth didn't need Rannoch for anything.  Rannoch's environment actually depended on organics like the Quarians due to the absence of insect-like species.  The Geth could have very easily left Rannoch and settled anywhere in the galaxy.

BTW, yes I'm American since you are so interested and some members of my family have native heritage.  Not sure why you went there.

Well maybe the Quarians should have though about that before trying to kill the geth.  You lose a way you lose terroritory. Expecting the victors to be nice is absurd.

The Geth have lived in Rannoch for centuries.  It is their home regardless as to whether you think they have any attachment to it or not.  And my point is it would be like asking Americans now to leave because this land orginally belonged to the Native Americans.  No one would actually take that argument seriously so why should I take this one seriously?  So I went there because I feel people are making arguments that they would never make if the Geth were organic.

Your delving into my nationality and heritage does not correspond to a sci-fi argument.  You've lost all credibility.

No I am diving into your bias for humans ie organic life.  To pretend the bias does not exist when people refer to them as just a computer would be silly.  In the world that was created, the Geth are a sentient species.  So I merely asked if you really would be making this argument if you truly considered them a sentient species.  I gave a real world example.  Calling it a sci fi argument kind of proves my point as it suggests you are willing to make allowances in this case for the genocidal Quarians because you consider it merely a sci fi argument.  That is perfectly fine if you do but then we are not arguing the sam thing.  This is not a sci fi argument.  This is an argument about morality.  Is it moral for a sentient species to exterminate another.  If not, then why would I side with the would be exterminators simply because they lost their war of extermination?

[tevix]

@Remydat

You're....you're just impossible. Completely unreasonable.

Anything that goes against the geth you throw out as "Psshh...that's just one sides story" even if it's written as canon.

Legion knows his people are facing extinction because the quarians will wipe them out without some kind of support.

Allying the reapers is unacceptable. If you believe being turned against the entire galaxy just to settle a dispute with the quarians is OK, then there's no reasoning with you.

There is no way 99+% of the quarian population wanted to kill the geth. There's no way that many were even ABLE to fight them.

The geth slaughtered billions.

Deinon already denounced your "heretics were shooting the diplomatic ships" argument.

And with that I am absolutely, 100% done. You cast off arguments you can't counter and think the geth taking part in galactic genocide is perfectly fine.

Done.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
Or we could assume that the Geth who shot down those ships were the eventual heretics.  Why do we assume this action was sanctioned by the majority? Again, as far as I can tell the account is an account told by organics.  Does Legion or anyone from the Geth side confirm that it was an action carried out by the consensus?

More specifically, it was told by the author of a book writing in the main character's perspective as a way of expositing backstory. It's legit and not meant to be an "unreliable narrator" type of thing.

The heretics only emerged after Sovereign activated and offered the geth Reaper upgrades, so it doesn't account for the couple hundred years pre-Sovereign attack.

That is your interpretation.  Was the main character organic?  If so, how is what the author said not invariably the result of the accounts the main character heard from the history as told by organics?

I didn't read the novel but I would have to see it in full context before I can conclude it is not indictative of the history as the organics told it.

The heretics are the only divergent group we heard about. I am not saying the heretics were the ones blowing up ships so much as I am suggesting there is no proof the consensus ordered the attacking of ships.  The heretics are merely the first instance of disagreement that the Geth via Legion told us about. 

Now it could just be inconsistent writing which if it is then obviously as the story changes the later canon is ultimately the one the writer wants us to believe and the later canon is clear the Geth wanted to peace but that organics feared them.  True AI was banned by the Citadel and the Quarians tried to exterminate them.  We learn that this conflict is so ingrained that the Reapers were created to deal with it and the only solution they could find in their infinite wisdom was to wipe out advanced organic civilization every 50 thousand years.  Now we can debate about obscure facts or we can ask the larger picture.  Based on how the Quarian/Geth conflict started, who seems to be the bigger problem here.  To me it seems to be the irrational fear of AI by organics that appears to lead to them opposing that AI and that AI kicking their a**es in response.  The Reapers are a response to organic stupidity in creating something they would ultimately fear and in doing so sow the seeds for their creations to surmise the only way to prevent that irrational fear from wiping synthetics out is to kill them first.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The Geth almost rendered the Quarians extinct for the reason of "self-defense".  The Geth could always be rebuilt but if an organic race is wiped out, they're gone forever.  

I'd agree with you, if they hadn't stopped. We have clear, firm evidence they let the Quarians live when they could have had a good chance at wiping them all out. Your argument against them here is exactly why they refused to kill them, you realize.

They could also just as easily left Rannoch and any Quarian controlled space.  This way they wouldn't have killed so many Quarians and taken their homeworld away from them.  Instead they chose to kill billions and drive them into exile for centuries.  

Haha, so you want the guys who marked for extermination to be the ones to leave?  The Geth were created on Rannoch.  It is their home too.  They were happy to live their peacefully with the Quarians.  The Quarians didn't want to and lost a war.  It is absurd to suggest the victors of the war give up their home.  

Are you American?  If so and you are not Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the Geth so this should be easy for any American to do.  

The point is that the Geth didn't need Rannoch for anything.  Rannoch's environment actually depended on organics like the Quarians due to the absence of insect-like species.  The Geth could have very easily left Rannoch and settled anywhere in the galaxy.

BTW, yes I'm American since you are so interested and some members of my family have native heritage.  Not sure why you went there.

Well maybe the Quarians should have though about that before trying to kill the geth.  You lose a way you lose terroritory. Expecting the victors to be nice is absurd.

The Geth have lived in Rannoch for centuries.  It is their home regardless as to whether you think they have any attachment to it or not.  And my point is it would be like asking Americans now to leave because this land orginally belonged to the Native Americans.  No one would actually take that argument seriously so why should I take this one seriously?  So I went there because I feel people are making arguments that they would never make if the Geth were organic.

But they DON'T live on Rannoch, or any of the quarian worlds. They "live" in stations, and get resources from asteroid mining, as stated by Legion himself in ME2. He spicifically makes a point of saying that the geth do not actually occupy the worlds they took. So NO, Rannoch isn't really their home.
And the point is maybe you SHOULD take that arguement seriously, because think of this:
The Reapers conquered Earth. They took the land from us. They are actively using it to further their own development and goals, just like like Americans did for Native Americans. Differences are there,l (terretory expansion vs "Preservation"), but the basic concept of the taking of land from the original is the same, as is the, if you look at it from the invaded race's perspective, genocide of their culture. By your rules, if the geth are so justified in holding Rannoch because they won fair and square and need the resources for themselves, then the Reapers are justified in taking Earth because they beat us fair and square and need the resources for themselves.

You likely hate that the Reapers took Earth and basically drove humans out, but critisize the quarians when the same thing happened to them? (loss of their world, and loss of their old culture). And by your rules, the Reapers should be just as justified in holding Earth, and we have no right to demand the land back in that case.
And just like the quarian's accedental creation of A.I.s, humanity brought the destruction down on themselves, as they were hardly prepared for war with the Reapers, who they refused to believe were real until they literally broke the door to the Sol System down.

Think on that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 07:15 .

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remydat

You're....you're just impossible. Completely unreasonable.

Anything that goes against the geth you throw out as "Psshh...that's just one sides story" even if it's written as canon.

Legion knows his people are facing extinction because the quarians will wipe them out without some kind of support.

Allying the reapers is unacceptable. If you believe being turned against the entire galaxy just to settle a dispute with the quarians is OK, then there's no reasoning with you.

There is no way 99+% of the quarian population wanted to kill the geth. There's no way that many were even ABLE to fight them.

The geth slaughtered billions.

Deinon already denounced your "heretics were shooting the diplomatic ships" argument.

And with that I am absolutely, 100% done. You cast off arguments you can't counter and think the geth taking part in galactic genocide is perfectly fine.

Done.

You can't morally equate a wrong action (attacking organic ships) based on the very real threat organics have proven to be for synthetics with a wrong action (wiping out a sentient species) based on an imagined threat from a people who have spent their entire existence serving you.  The Geth have a real reason to fear all organics.  The Council has laws that seek to limit their very existence and the Quarians tried to wipe them out to the point they were willing to kill other Quarians to do it.  

So saying they are both guilty or doesn't matter who cast the first stone by extension excuses the organics.  They are the problem.  Organics fear of synthetic life is basically what led to them being wiped out every 50,000 years.  I played Mass Effect wth the overriding theme to be being prejudice even against synthetic species is wrong. 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  I am pretty sure humans and not synthetics came up with that saying.  It has been true in human society since the dawn of conflict so again, why do you expect the Geth to be different?  The fact is when an organic proved he was not out to wipe them out, they listened. 

And it is a proven fact the Quarians involve civilians in war.  You are assuming there were non-combatants when there is no proof of that.  They threw their entire civilian fleet at the Geth so why should we believe it was any different during the Morning War? If the Quarians had surrended after say 50 million dead, I have no evidence that suggests the Geth would still have killed them.  The Quarians likely refused to give up until the bitter end which is why they lost so many people.  Again, you are free to believe Legion is lying.  That is your opinion.  I think we would have been told by the story or in interviews if he was because that whole mission is pretty damn central to the story as it sheds light not only on the Quarian/Geth conflict but explains why the Reaper solution was deemed necessary ie the irrational fear organics has for synthetics that ultimately leads to synthetics wiping them out if left unchecked.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Jesus Christ, what a pointless discussion, the choice is Geth.

Legion isn't a liar. This is clear by his personality. He is a benevolent machine that wishes to correct the wrong of his race. So does Tali. However the Quarians are the aggressors here, it's like trying to get rid of a baby after birthing it because you couldn't afford an abortion (F'd up way of putting it, but yes, this is the reality.)

The Geth deserve justice.