4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons.

Uhh, Reaper code =/= Reaper gun. We also do not know what exact Reaper tech was in EDI. It was left vague.

And no, the Reaper tech is not reliable. SR2 getting collected? Remember that? Oh yeah, we can trust the code though, "it's extremely reliable..." 

[Han Shot First]

Back after I had played Mass Effect 2 for the first time, if you had asked this question I would have answered the Geth. The Quarians were the aggressors in the Morning War, and their continued war mongering towards the Geth made them the least sympathetic out of the two factions.

However after Mass Effect 3 I would chosen the Quarians if there were no option to resolve the conflict peacefully. While the Quarians are to blame for the continued conflict with the Geth, the Geth still decided to align with the Reapers. I'd choose the Quarians for no other reason than that at no point were they allied to the enemy during the Reaper War.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons.

Uhh, Reaper code =/= Reaper gun. We also do not know what exact Reaper tech was in EDI. It was left vague.

And no, the Reaper tech is not reliable. SR2 getting collected? Remember that? Oh yeah, we can trust the code though, "it's extremely reliable..." 

It only presented a problem when we failed to look at it beforehand. After the trap was removed, the code became absolutely vital to accomplishing the mission. Legion has looked at it beforehand; even we get to see an intimate view of it in one mission. I trust that Legion has an intimate enough knowledge of the code to know that there aren't any further traps left in it.

[MegaSovereign]

My own code of ethics prevents me from choosing machines over an organic race.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons.

Uhh, Reaper code =/= Reaper gun. We also do not know what exact Reaper tech was in EDI. It was left vague.

And no, the Reaper tech is not reliable. SR2 getting collected? Remember that? Oh yeah, we can trust the code though, "it's extremely reliable..." 

It only presented a problem when we failed to look at it beforehand. After the trap was removed, the code became absolutely vital to accomplishing the mission. Legion has looked at it beforehand; even we get to see an intimate view of it in one mission. I trust that Legion has an intimate enough knowledge of the code to know that there aren't any further traps left in it.

Trusting Legion is hard after his lies of omission. That code is not to be trusted, and considering how fast he leaps to accept it, it would be wise to think twice before allowing him to upload it.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons.

Uhh, Reaper code =/= Reaper gun. We also do not know what exact Reaper tech was in EDI. It was left vague.

And no, the Reaper tech is not reliable. SR2 getting collected? Remember that? Oh yeah, we can trust the code though, "it's extremely reliable..." 

It only presented a problem when we failed to look at it beforehand. After the trap was removed, the code became absolutely vital to accomplishing the mission. Legion has looked at it beforehand; even we get to see an intimate view of it in one mission. I trust that Legion has an intimate enough knowledge of the code to know that there aren't any further traps left in it.

Trusting Legion is hard after his lies of omission. That code is not to be trusted, and considering how fast he leaps to accept it, it would be wise to think twice before allowing him to upload it.

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleah. I would like to join in, but both non-peace options are utterly repugnant and inexcusable.

. Only if you trust Reaper technology.

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons; it's the Reaper minds that have been the only problem, and the only dangerous one is dead.

. Excuse me.  Reaper software.  Not technology.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleah. I would like to join in, but both non-peace options are utterly repugnant and inexcusable.

. Only if you trust Reaper technology.

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons; it's the Reaper minds that have been the only problem, and the only dangerous one is dead.

. Excuse me.  Reaper software.  Not technology.

Software is technology. And need I remind you of the vitality of the IFF?

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

That is your interpretation.  Was the main character organic?  If so, how is what the author said not invariably the result of the accounts the main character heard from the history as told by organics?

Because the author is the creator of the true history. It's very convenient for you to handwave any information presented to us as "organic bias" but I can play that game, too.

Legion lied about the heretics. There never were any heretics. What happened was that the geth got their ass whupped by the Alliance in ME1 and became scared that the Council would approve a joint-effort to go into the Perseus Veil and wipe them out. So they fabricated the story about the heretics and brought Shepard to a space station full of geth so he could destroy them. There was no virus to rewrite the heretics.

Notice you can't prove anything I say wrong because Legion is the only person who can confirm or deny the existence of heretics. We take everything he says on faith, and we see in ME3 he's willing to lie for the survival of his species.

Of course, it's clear that we're supposed to take the heretic plot as truth because that's how stories work.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

Legion erred in the original heretic action, though I doubt the runtimes within its platform had any choice on the matter. In any case, Legion never wanted to help the Reapers to begin with, was in fact imprisoned aboard the dreadnaught and turned on its own race at Shepard's request.
And I have ample reasons for believing the code is safe, that I mentioned previously.

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

@remydat

Collectors=/=organics

Collectors are mindless evil creatures that worked directly with the Reapers. Organics are just... Organics. Don't even try to compare those 2. Don't EVEN. The Geth didn't see all organics as enemies... And if they did, you're not helping your case because that's just saying that the Geth really did want to annihilate all organic life like Tali said Geth wanted to in ME1. So either they were implicitly guilty,or they were directly guilty because they thought all organics should be slaughtered and were actually rooting for the heretics. Not exactly painting the Geth any better with that logic.

@ZeCollectorDestroya

Right, busy fending off the Quarians in ME1, three years before Quarians had even warred with the Geth since the morning war. So apparently they were fending off enemies that weren't even there until three years after they needed to "fend them off".

Logic, do you know it?

Collectors can't be evil if they are mindless.  As a matter of law, if you lack the ability to distinguish between right and wrong you are deemed insane and not responsible for your actions.  The Collectors by virtue of them being mind controlled cannot determine right from wrong so they cannot be considered evil.  Their acts and the people doing the mind control potentially are but not the Collectors.  They have no free will.  In any event that is not really relevant to the point but thought I should clarify.

As to your point, I am not equating Collectors and Organics.  I am equating how organics and the geth deal with people antagonistic towards them.  Organics are antagonistic towards synthetics.  There are regulations designed to prevent synthetic life from existing and an organic race decided to attempt genocide against the geth.  Can we agree that genocide is evil?

So to expect the Geth to risk their lives to fight the heretics and Sovereign is absurd.  They would be risking their lives to save a group antagonistic to them and their reward would likely be either destruction at the hands of Sovereign and the heretics or victory at great loss of life for them which organics especially the Quarians might then decide makes them ripe for another campaign of Genocide.  What would you do if you were in charge of an organic race facing this decision?

In fact in ME3, the organic races refuse to help each other until they receive various benefits.  Benefits the Geth would likely never have been offered or received from any organic race.  The only reason these organic groups don't just sit back and watch each other die is because of a common threat and the ability of Shepard to get them to work together.  The Salarians basically took a bunch of cave men to use as cannon fodder and when those cave men who the Salarians knew were not actually ready for the responsibility inevitably rebelled they thought the best solution was the genophage.  So again, why are we expecting synthetics to be better than organic races?

Modifié par remydat, 18 mars 2013 - 04:09 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

The code itself is clearly trustworthy.

Suuuuureeeeeeeeee the reaper code is trustworthy. It's not like all geth just tried to kill us only mere minutes ago because of that same code. 

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The code itself is clearly trustworthy.

Suuuuureeeeeeeeee the reaper code is trustworthy. It's not like all geth just tried to kill us only mere minutes ago because of that same code. 

Because of the Reaper using the code to control it. A gun won't leap out of your hands and kill you just because someone was trying to shoot you with it a moment ago.

[Phatose]

Well, the bright side is you don't have to worry about.

If you're not willing to use dangerous Reaper tech, you can't make it there anyway. The Mass Relays are known to have an explicit purpose of manipulating species to a particular type of technological evolution, and the Omega 5 relay demonstrates clearly it can be immediately dangerous in addition to the more general malevolent intent.

So either you're willing to use Reaper tech known to be both dangerous and subversive, or you're not making it to Rannoch anyway.

If you're at Rannoch, you've already shown clearly that you're willing to use dangerous Reaper tech when it serves your purposes.  Complaining when the Geth do it is hypocriscy. 

Modifié par Phatose, 18 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The code itself is clearly trustworthy.

Suuuuureeeeeeeeee the reaper code is trustworthy. It's not like all geth just tried to kill us only mere minutes ago because of that same code. 

Because of the Reaper using the code to control it. A gun won't leap out of your hands and kill you just because someone was trying to shoot you with it a moment ago.

bad analogy is bad.

The reaper sused the code to control the geth through Legion. You're about to allow Legion to upload that very same code to ALL geth. Yeah, that certainly cannot possibly go wrong. Yep, totally trustworthy. 

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The code itself is clearly trustworthy.

Suuuuureeeeeeeeee the reaper code is trustworthy. It's not like all geth just tried to kill us only mere minutes ago because of that same code. 

Because of the Reaper using the code to control it. A gun won't leap out of your hands and kill you just because someone was trying to shoot you with it a moment ago.

bad analogy is bad.

The reaper sused the code to control the geth through Legion. You're about to allow Legion to upload that very same code to ALL geth. Yeah, that certainly cannot possibly go wrong. Yep, totally trustworthy. 

And the Reaper is dead. There's no more control signal. The geth are no longer vulnerable.

In any case, your sarcasm falls completely flat when the code actually is totally trustworthy.

[The Heretic of Time]

Phatose wrote...

Well, the bright side is you don't have to worry about.

If you're not willing to use dangerous Reaper tech, you can't make it there anyway. The Mass Relays are known to have an explicit purpose of manipulating species to a particular type of technological evolution, and the Omega 5 relay demonstrates clearly it can have immediate dangerous in addition to the more general malevolent intent.

So either you're willing to use Reaper tech known to be both dangerous and subversive, or you're not making it to Rannoch anyway.

There is a huge difference between ME using reaper tech and the GETH using reaper tech.

There is also a huge difference between reverse-engineered reaper weapons (Thanix cannon) and a reaper code in the hands on an entire synthetic race.

SOME reaper tech can and should be used, while SOME other reaper tech can't or shouldn't be used.

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Well, the bright side is you don't have to worry about.

If you're not willing to use dangerous Reaper tech, you can't make it there anyway. The Mass Relays are known to have an explicit purpose of manipulating species to a particular type of technological evolution, and the Omega 5 relay demonstrates clearly it can have immediate dangerous in addition to the more general malevolent intent.

So either you're willing to use Reaper tech known to be both dangerous and subversive, or you're not making it to Rannoch anyway.

There is a huge difference between ME using reaper tech and the GETH using reaper tech.

There is also a huge difference between reverse-engineered reaper weapons (Thanix cannon) and a reaper code in the hands on an entire synthetic race.

SOME reaper tech can and should be used, while SOME other reaper tech can't or shouldn't be used.

And since the code is nothing but an enhancement that poses no threat to your own side, it also should be used.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The code itself is clearly trustworthy.

Suuuuureeeeeeeeee the reaper code is trustworthy. It's not like all geth just tried to kill us only mere minutes ago because of that same code. 

Because of the Reaper using the code to control it. A gun won't leap out of your hands and kill you just because someone was trying to shoot you with it a moment ago.

bad analogy is bad.

The reaper sused the code to control the geth through Legion. You're about to allow Legion to upload that very same code to ALL geth. Yeah, that certainly cannot possibly go wrong. Yep, totally trustworthy. 

And the Reaper is dead. There's no more control signal. The geth are no longer vulnerable.

A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code. 

In any case, your sarcasm falls completely flat when the code actually is totally trustworthy.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 mars 2013 - 04:16 .

[remydat]

Silcron wrote...
In most cases I'll admit it's true, at least for any quarian supporter that defends the geth being alive and people.

In my case for me geth are just machines, for me killing the geth is like making electric cars mandatory and scrapping all the old ones. The geth I say aren't alive, so I can't kill them. I can erase the programs like I do when I deisntall a comple program like a videogame and let the quarians repurpose the remains, that is recycling.

Another why I kill the geth is because if I achieve peace or side with them they get the reaper code. And if a reaper IFF whose only purpose is to let ships use relays more accurately could call the collectors tohte normandy the moment the geth get reaper software upgrades all I see is sleeper agents. The firt time I achieved peace because I had ot rush the decision, I had to go and didn't want to replay the reaper again. When I got to Earth I kept expecting all the time a cutscene in which the reapers assume direct control of the geth and screw my army.

Look if you want to argue you kill them because you don't consider them more than just machines then so be it.  At least you are being honest.  However, your position is precisely the reason why the Reapers exist.  In the mass effect world, conflict is inevitably mainly because organics seem incapable of respecting synthetics right to exist.

[Xilizhra]

A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code.

Evidently, none of them are.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bleah. I would like to join in, but both non-peace options are utterly repugnant and inexcusable.

. Only if you trust Reaper technology.

With the destroyer dead, there's nothing that'll control the geth anymore. The Reaper code is harmless without a master. And Reaper technology is extremely reliable, as seen with EDI and our own Thanix weapons; it's the Reaper minds that have been the only problem, and the only dangerous one is dead.

. Excuse me.  Reaper software.  Not technology.

Software is technology. And need I remind you of the vitality of the IFF?

. Because the IFF didnt backfire in any way shape or form?

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Well, the bright side is you don't have to worry about.

If you're not willing to use dangerous Reaper tech, you can't make it there anyway. The Mass Relays are known to have an explicit purpose of manipulating species to a particular type of technological evolution, and the Omega 5 relay demonstrates clearly it can have immediate dangerous in addition to the more general malevolent intent.

So either you're willing to use Reaper tech known to be both dangerous and subversive, or you're not making it to Rannoch anyway.

There is a huge difference between ME using reaper tech and the GETH using reaper tech.

There is also a huge difference between reverse-engineered reaper weapons (Thanix cannon) and a reaper code in the hands on an entire synthetic race.

SOME reaper tech can and should be used, while SOME other reaper tech can't or shouldn't be used.

And since the code is nothing but an enhancement that poses no threat to your own side, it also should be used.

How does a code that allows the reapers to control the geth not pose a threat to my side?

Another question: Why the f*ck should I trust those damn geth with that upgrade when they WILLINGLY sided with the reapers on a whim, TWICE?


Yeah, no, sorry, the geth can f*ck off and die already.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 mars 2013 - 04:19 .

[Xilizhra]

How does a code that allows the reapers to control the geth not pose a threat to my side?

Because it doesn't allow the Reapers to control the geth.

Another question: Why the f*ck should I trust those damn geth with that upgrade when they WILLINGLY sided with the reapers on a whim, TWICE?

Well, I dislike genocide.