4712 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, I dislike genocide.

Then you should probably side against the race that just allied itself with a species bent on mass genocide of all advanced organic life.

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...



A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code. 

Should I remind you that the reaper tried to control the Geth using the code after Rannoch, however they couldn't. The upgraded reaper code that Legion uploaded to the geth gave them individualitu and free will.

The reapers knowing that they couldn't control the geths using the code as before, offered them what they promised to the herethics, a reaper shell so they can upload to it.The geths refused that and stated that they will make their own path.

Also the geths are the only race that promised to help to rebuild Earth after the war

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

How does a code that allows the reapers to control the geth not pose a threat to my side?

Because it doesn't allow the Reapers to control the geth.

Yes it does. It's why the code even exists in the first place. Pay more attention to the lore.

Another question: Why the f*ck should I trust those damn geth with that upgrade when they WILLINGLY sided with the reapers on a whim, TWICE?

Well, I dislike genocide.

And so do I. That's why I can't allow the geth to live after them siding with the reapers, TWICE.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 mars 2013 - 04:25 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...



A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code. 

Should I remind you that the reaper tried to control the Geth using the code after Rannoch, however they couldn't. The upgraded reaper code that Legion uploaded to the geth gave them individualitu and free will.

The reapers knowing that they couldn't control the geths using the code as before, offered them what they promised to the herethics, a reaper shell so they can upload to it.The geths refused that and stated that they will make their own path.

Also the geths are the only race that promised to help to rebuild Earth after the war

You're meta-gaming.

You don't know all this at the moment you actually have to make the decision on rannoch.

[Xilizhra]

Then you should probably side against the race that just allied itself with a species bent on mass genocide of all advanced organic life.

They're willing to leave. I'll take them.

Yes it does. It's why the code even exists in the first place. Pay more attention to the lore.

And yet, none of the geth fleet is ever controlled by the Reapers. In the format in which Legion uploads it, it doesn't open itself to control signals. This may have something to do with Legion's personality dissemination.

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


Another question: Why the f*ck should I trust those damn geth with that upgrade when they WILLINGLY sided with the reapers on a whim, TWICE?


Yeah, no, sorry, the geth can f*ck off and die already.

First, the geth didn't side with the reapers in 2183, it were just the herethics. Following your logic that the geth sided with the reapers because a minority of them (just the 5%) joined them is like saying that humanity sided with the reaper because Cerberus sided with them.

Second, they "willingly" joining the reapers needs more context. The quarians destroyed a space station that had several programs uploaded into it. Those programs didn't have back ups, so they took a rushed decision, and what could you expect with the decisions they have avaible: Die because a stupid race doesn't want peace with them or accept the help of the reapers to survive as a species.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes it does. It's why the code even exists in the first place. Pay more attention to the lore.

And yet, none of the geth fleet is ever controlled by the Reapers. In the format in which Legion uploads it, it doesn't open itself to control signals. This may have something to do with Legion's personality dissemination.

You're meta-gaming. At the moment you have to make the decision on rannoch you cannot possibly know that the reapers can't control the geth anymore after Legion uploaded the code that the reapers used to control the geth.


Personally, I find it rather illogical and stupid that by uploading a reaper control code, the reapers all of the sudden't cannot control the geth anymore, because f*ck logic.

But yeah, ME3's crappy writing is a whole different subject and probably off-topic.

[CronoDragoon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then you should probably side against the race that just allied itself with a species bent on mass genocide of all advanced organic life.

They're willing to leave. I'll take them.

They're only willing to do anything because Shepard came in and saved them. Were it not for Shepard's intervention, the geth remain slaves of the Reapers by their own choice, accomplices in the extinction of dozens of organic races.

[Xilizhra]

You're meta-gaming. At the moment you have to make the decision on rannoch you cannot possibly know that the reapers can't control the geth anymore after Legion uploaded the code that the reapers used to control the geth.

I can infer it, based on my trust of Legion and my belief that it wouldn't do so if it'd allow the geth to just be controlled again.

Personally, I find it rather illogical and stupid that by uploading a reaper control code, the reapers all of the sudden't cannot control the geth anymore, because f*ck logic.

I think the control and intelligence enhancement codes were also separate. Legion only uploads the enhancement one.

They're only willing to do anything because Shepard came in and saved
them. Were it not for Shepard's intervention, the geth remain slaves of
the Reapers by their own choice, accomplices in the extinction of dozens
of organic races.

Regrettable, but no longer relevant. I'll never wipe out an entire race like that, and I'll accept their help if offered.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 mars 2013 - 04:33 .

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...



A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code. 

Should I remind you that the reaper tried to control the Geth using the code after Rannoch, however they couldn't. The upgraded reaper code that Legion uploaded to the geth gave them individuality and free will.

The reapers knowing that they couldn't control the geths using the code as before, offered them what they promised to the herethics, a reaper shell so they can upload to it.The geths refused that and stated that they will make their own path.

Also the geths are the only race that promised to help to rebuild Earth after the war

You're meta-gaming.

You don't know all this at the moment you actually have to make the decision on rannoch.

Yes, you do. Legion tells you this right before he starts uploading the code.

[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

First, the geth didn't side with the reapers in 2183, it were just the herethics. Following your logic that the geth sided with the reapers because a minority of them (just the 5%) joined them is like saying that humanity sided with the reaper because Cerberus sided with them.

And yet the other 95% of the geth couldn't be bothered with what the Heretics did. They ALLOWED to Heretics to side with the reapers and they ALLOWED the heretics to trash human colonies and in the end of ME1 the Citadel. They didn't do ANYTHING about it. They didn't try to stop the Heretics, they didn't try to warn humanity or warn the council about the Heretics, nope, none of that.

The other 95% of the geth are just as bad and just as guilty as the 5% that turned Heretic.

Second, they "willingly" joining the reapers needs more context. The quarians destroyed a space station that had several programs uploaded into it. Those programs didn't have back ups, so they took a rushed decision, and what could you expect with the decisions they have avaible: Die because a stupid race doesn't want peace with them or accept the help of the reapers to survive as a species.

There where a billion other things the geth could have done. They could have fled from Rannoch. They could have tried to contact Shepard (he already sided with Legion in ME2 after all), they could have tried to negotiate with the quarians, they could have tried to wave the white flag or whatever. They DIDN'T EVEN TRY any of that. They just went straight to the reapers on a whim.

Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something? Didn't they learn anything from the Heretics? Didn't they learn that the reapers have no interest in preserving the geth? Didn't they learn that there actually are organics willing to help them (Shepard and his crew) if they would just ask?

Seriously, the geth's actions in ME3 simply CANNOT be justified. Not at all.

[S.A.K]

Actually the reaper code would be more trust worthy than the Geth themselves. In ME2 they are all butt hurt about the Heretics trying to brain wash them to join the reapers. And they are all about "making their own future". Then I killed the Heretics.
Few shots from the Quarians later, the rest of the Geth go right ahead and join the reapers. Dafuq?!?

They can't even honor their own damn principles. Yep! They are totally thrust worthy, specially with reaper code.

Modifié par S.A.K, 18 mars 2013 - 04:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something?

Actually, yes. In ME3 we are told that enough geth runtimes had been destroyed in the course of the renewed war that the intelligence of "the geth" was lowered enough to accept the Reaper offer.

That's not an excuse for them, of course, just saying that Legion (I think he's the one that tells you this?) himself acknowledges the move was stupid.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 04:42 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

[Rhiens VI]

Skullheart wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...



A yes, the reaper is dead. It's not as if there are like a billion more of those reapers currently trashing the galaxy, ALL of them capable of assuming direct control over the geth through the reaper code. 

Should I remind you that the reaper tried to control the Geth using the code after Rannoch, however they couldn't. The upgraded reaper code that Legion uploaded to the geth gave them individuality and free will.

The reapers knowing that they couldn't control the geths using the code as before, offered them what they promised to the herethics, a reaper shell so they can upload to it.The geths refused that and stated that they will make their own path.

Also the geths are the only race that promised to help to rebuild Earth after the war

You're meta-gaming.

You don't know all this at the moment you actually have to make the decision on rannoch.

Yes, you do. Legion tells you this right before he starts uploading the code.

And why should Shepard trust Legion? He lied to him before.

[Abraham_uk]

Very good post Herectic_Hanar.

Perhaps the Geth didn't trust organics because of the way the Quarians treated them.

What is to say that the Alliance or Citadel Council would treat them better.
Both the Alliance and Citadel Council have had bad experiences with the Geth Herectics.

[Phatose]

Skullheart wrote...

Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something? Didn't they learn anything from the Heretics? Didn't they learn that the reapers have no interest in preserving the geth? Didn't they learn that there actually are organics willing to help them (Shepard and his crew) if they would just ask?

Seriously, the geth's actions in ME3 simply CANNOT be justified. Not at all.

Canonically, actually, yes.  Well, after the attempted genocide by the Quarians anway.  The vast number of Geth permanently lost in the Quarian's attack reduced their intelligence, both as available minds, and due to the nature of the Geth consciousness, made individual programs dumber to boot.

If they're acting stupid in ME3, it's because the Quarians lobotomized them.

[Auld Wulf]

So much bitterness... so much hate and anger.

All because of small-minded xenophobia.

I don't know how a person could live like that.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 18 mars 2013 - 04:45 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Phatose wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something? Didn't they learn anything from the Heretics? Didn't they learn that the reapers have no interest in preserving the geth? Didn't they learn that there actually are organics willing to help them (Shepard and his crew) if they would just ask?

Seriously, the geth's actions in ME3 simply CANNOT be justified. Not at all.

Canonically, actually, yes.  Well, after the attempted genocide by the Quarians anway.  The vast number of Geth permanently lost in the Quarian's attack reduced their intelligence, both as available minds, and due to the nature of the Geth consciousness, made individual programs dumber to boot.

If they're acting stupid in ME3, it's because the Quarians lobotomized them.

I actually wrote that comment you replied to, not Skullheart.


So, the entire geth race became retarded, except for Legion? How do you explain that?

Sound like a ******-poor excuse from the geth / Legion to me, or just ******-poor writing from the writers. Or both. Take your pick.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 mars 2013 - 04:50 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So much bitterness... so much hate and anger.

All because of small-minded xenophobia.

I don't know how a person could live like that.

. No one cares what you have to say.  If all you are going to do is call Destroyers and anti-geth users sociopaths just leave.  We don't want to hear your lunatic rantings.

[The Heretic of Time]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Very good post Herectic_Hanar.

Perhaps the Geth didn't trust organics because of the way the Quarians treated them.

What is to say that the Alliance or Citadel Council would treat them better.
Both the Alliance and Citadel Council have had bad experiences with the Geth Herectics.

Yes, and the geth heretics are the ONLY geth the organics have had experiences with. So sorry, you can't really blame it on the organics for not trusting the geth. Blame it on the geth. If they would just tried to do something about the heretics, such as destroying them, or at least warning us about them, organics might have thought differently about the geth.

[Skullheart]

Rhiens VI wrote...


And why should Shepard trust Legion? He lied to him before.

Legion never lied to Shepard.

Omission of truth =/= lying.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

My opinion: The Quarians panicked at the thought of the Geth becoming sapience. They kind of went on a slippery slope and thought that sapience = rebellion. I don't believe that's the case at all for the Geth, especially when they were with some of the Quarians who disagreed with their fellows.

But the Geth had enough cognitive abilities to develop basic survival tendencies. They didn't want to die. So they decided to not die in the face of Quarian attacks. I don't see why they're any less valid at doing this than any other race. Someone comes at you with a gun pointed at you, I'm not going to ask questions. I'm going to run, hide, or if I have my own gun, fire it first. I think the Geth reached a point in their infant processing ability that they went overboard: They came to believe that the only way they'd be safe was to eliminate all the Quarians on Rannoch and the Tikkun system, and the entire span of the Perseus Veil. The Quarians fled, and the Geth chose not to pursue, because they couldn't determine the problem to wiping out an entire race or facing an entire galaxy full of organics that are wary and downright hostile towards synthetics. So they chose isolation, to make their own future, and to determine their own path in the galaxy. Sovereign tried to recruit them. They weren't bugged, and they weren't infected. The vast majority of Geth chose to reject Sovereigns offer, and Sovereign left with the Heretics it had, who joined willingly, and of their own accord.

After Sovereigns destruction, the remaining Heretics were against reunification with the Geth, and held out hope that the Reapers would return and give them their future.

Depending on Shepard's actions, you can then rewrite or destroy them.

Next, the Geth, warned by Legion, prepare for the imminent arrival of the Reapers by expanding their forces and preparing for war with the Reapers. Then the Quarians return. For whatever reason, the Quarians, led by two rather... unstable personalities (Gerrel, who has the bulk of the military fleet, and Xen who does R&D) who believe it's the perfect time to attack the Geth in the middle of the Reaper invasion. The Geth, having suddenly been attacked and with a great number of their processing power destroyed by the loss of millions of Geth, in utter desperation go to the Reapers, the very enemy they were gearing up to fight. They voluntarily submit themselves to slavery in the hopes of survival in the face of Quarian onslaught. It was a rock or a hard place for them. Be destroyed by the Quarians, or live but as tools for the Reapers. They shouldn't have had to make that decision. I don't agree at all with it, but I understand why they did it. And the Quarians didn't need to attack, after I told them of the possibility of having peaceful coexistence with the Geth.

I strengthened the Geth by rewriting the Heretics. The Geth are stronger. The Reaper code is something different, something unknown. What I do know is that the Quarians are also unreliable, more interested in Rannoch than with the war with the Reapers. The Geth wouldn't have needed the Reaper code had the Quarians not destroyed the Geth Hub.

I'm going to take my chances with the Geth over the Quarians.

The Quarians refused to listen. I tried being reasonable with them. But they screwed themselves.

The Geth are more advanced, and are going to be a significant fleet and ground force. They can go anywhere and fight anywhere.

I make peace, but if I had to choose, it would be the Geth every time.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...WRONG. Humans and members of humanity  have:
(a) Killed the Reaper vanguard, Sovergien.
( Destroyed the Human Proto-Reaper.
© Devestated both of their proxy armies, the geth Heretics and Collectors.
(d) Destroyed at least several Reaper objects, such as Object Rho (destroyed by Shepard), and the Arca Monolith (desteroyed by Jack Harper, AKA, The Illusive Man).
Humans did more damage to the Reaper's plans then anyone else in the cycle did, even BEFORE they were chosen to be the next harvested race. They disrupted their cycle more then any other race mamaged to do, and personally antagonized the Reapers with their resistance, and with the actions of Shepard, and of Cerberus trying to find a way to control them. So NO, I DON'T see the difference.
And the term "it takes two to tango" is quite prevelant to this. You can't just chalk this all up to organic irrationalaty, when synthetic overrationalaty has caused it just as much. Like how the geth completely isolate themselves because of how one race reacted to them 300 years ago, and let hate fester to the point that no one would listen to them anyway. If they hadn't shot down unarmed diplomat ships without so much as even a hail (which is explisitly stated as happening in Mass Effect: Revelation, a book that details the back-stories of David Anderson, Kahlee Sanders, and Saren Arterius, and goes into detail about the Alliance and batarians creating A.I tech, and the mission that led to Anderson being kicked from Spectre candidacy).
The bottom line here is that it's just as much the fault of synthetics as organics in causing conflict.

And the Council laws prohibit creation of A.I.s. If the Council found out that the quarians V.I. slave race had suddenly grown awareness, they would have enacted harsh sanctions against the quarians, if not outright censorship. The Council placed censorship on the Alliance for the Eliza A.I. at Gagarian Station, and that was just ONE A.I. An entire race of them being created, even if by accedent, would certinly lead to the quarians getting kicked from the Citadel Conventions and becoming an exiled nation (which happens anyway after the Morning War, so in the end they were screwed no matter what they did). At first they tryed reprogramming, which failed. Then they tried deactivation, which failed because the geth adapted self-optimization to resist shut-down commands unless by their own progative. They tried forcing the shut-down when the remote commands failed, leading them to delcare matrial law on their worlds, as protest formed saying that the geth shouldn't be shut down for simple questioning, as no one knew that the geth were sentiant. The early protesters believed the geth were simply parroting or phantomiming life, and not truly alive, and therefore no threat. As that changed, the number of quarians eventually shunk, as more and more realized that the geth were becoming alive, and few quarians thought that was a good idea given Council law.
With protest from several groups, the threat of the geth becoming sentiant and possibly rebelling, and above it all, the Council and imminate censorship looming above them, the now-desperate quarian government and military attacked the geth, hoping to wipe them out, then likely explain away the situation to the Council. They probably would have said it was a network malafunction. And the belief at the time was that if they destroyed the geth before they gained true sentiance, then it wouldn't be killing people, but destroying "faulty hardware."
However, the geth WERE already alive, and, under the threat of obliteration by the now-panicked quarian government, the geth panicked themselves and overzelously retaliated, sending the quarians reeling. Placing personal survival as priority one, the geth stopped discrimination between freind and foe, only caring about their fellow geth. This slaughter, and the geth no longer caring about civilian casulaties in their over-agressive  self-defence, killed any remaining sympathy that the quarians had for the geth, and both sides committed themselves fully to wiping the other out.

And the geth launched an attack on Rannoch WELL AFTER the bulk of the war ended. Rannoch fell at the end of the year-long war, and many worlds had long since fallen, like Haestrom, which is described as "one of the first worlds to fall." The geth had NO REASON to push into the Tikkun System and take Rannoch. They had already devestated the quarian economy, and shattered the spine of the quarian military. it was for no other reason then over-zelous self-preservation.
And more then once, the geth have displayed that they will always prioritize their own survival over all else, even when it shafts everyone else in the process. This is dysplayed by their alliance with the Reapers, and with their genocide of the quarians if you fail to create peace and side with them.

And actually, that perceved threat ALREADY happened. Several times.
In the Leviathan Age, several races were wiped out by their synthetic creations rebelling. The Leviathans said they were destroyed by their creations, and that "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." They created the Catalyst, which, according to it in the Ending, tried several times to find a way to stop the conflict, which all ended in failure, and in the synthetics destroying their masters in the long run, killing several more races. This gave birth to the Reapers, which was the only thing that didn't result in the synthetics wiping out their masters.

So NO, yoru position isn't consistant, as you deny any and all belief that synthetics are even partly at fault for what happened. If the geth were so willing to help other organics, why did they let the Heretics run rampant through the Attican Traverse, and tear the Citadel a new one, when they spicifically knew what the Heretics planed?  Why did they do nothing while the Collectors were abducting people? Why did they stay isolated while Palaven and Earth burned under the Reapers? (the quarians don't launch the war till at least right before Priority: Tuchanka.)
And the quarians came back to destroy them regardless of that land, so keeping it solved nothing in either the long or short term.
And again, as I said at the very top of this page, that logic of yours would mean that humans could not hold a grudge against the Reapers for taking Earth.

(a) -(d) Did you miss the begining of the game when the Heretics and Sovereign had already attacked?  Sovereign attacked organics first.  He is at fault.  That is different than the Geth responding to an attempt at genocide by rebelling.

The Geth are not just as much at fault. By your own admission there are laws against the creation of AI.  The Quarians launced a campaign of gencodide against them.  Unless you can prove to me that the Geth had done something to provoke these laws that existed before their creation or to provoke the attempted genocide then they are not the same. 
And oganics in this cycle have no knowledge of what happened during the Leviathan Age.  You can't claim the threat the geth posed was real based on information that the Quarians and organics never possessed when they decided to exterminate a race.  Further, the Protheans subjugated many groups as did the Rachni, the Krogan, etc.  Unless all organics are going to be judged based on what other organics have done holding the Geth accoutable for the actions of previous synthetic races is prejudice.  

From where I sit the problem is organic prejudice.  The Leviathan think themselves the superior race and want the lesser organic races to serve them.  The lesser organic races think they are superior to machines and want machines to serve them.  The machines seem fine with serving but when they gain sentience, the lesser organics try to wipe them out because the slaves are getting too uppity and then get their a** handed to them.  The Leviathan not wanting to lose their slaves instead of intervening directly in the conflict decided to create machines because the Levithan are too lazy to solve the problem themselves.  Those machines correctly realise the problem is organics prejudice and so decided the only way to save organics is by wiping out the advanced organic racers.  They start with the most advanced of all (Leviathans) who again probably could have resolved the conflict without creating the machines but their own hubris, laziness, and desire to have slave organic races worship them led to their downfall.

So sorry bro the problem is the organics.  It starts with the Leviathan whose only interest in intervening was so that their slaves/thralls could continue to pay them tribute.  Sure let's blame machines for organic greed and prejudice.

And I already explained why the Geth did not stop the Heretics.  They would have done so at great cost of Geth life and with Sovereign involved would have either been wiped out or decimated enough that the genocidal Quarians would have taken the opportunity to kill them.  Shepard is human and only barely was able to get these organic races to unite and you think the Geth should have risked their lives for organics that have lives that seek to prevent them from ever existing and tried to committ genocide against them.  Get real.

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...

If they're acting stupid in ME3, it's because the Quarians lobotomized them.

But that's just an inherent part of how their race's mind works. That would be like saying the quarians aren't to blame for trying to destroy the geth initially because organic minds feel fear when conceiving of a threat and lash out accordingly.