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[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...


And why should Shepard trust Legion? He lied to him before.

Legion never lied to Shepard.

Omission of truth =/= lying.

There honestly is no difference between the omission of truth and lying.

[Phatose]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I actually wrote that comment you replied to, not Skullheart.


So, the entire geth race became retarded, except for Legion? How do you explain that?

Sound like a ******-poor excuse from the geth / Legion to me, or just ******-poor writing from the writers. Or both. Take your pick.

Apologies, messed up the quote when trimming.

Legion, when you encounter him, already has the modified reaper code.  I don't remember them addressing exactly how he managed to modify it so it couldn't control him, but clearly it was.   Either way, Legion when you meet him isn't indicative of the whole of the Geth race after the attack.

[The Heretic of Time]

Phatose wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I actually wrote that comment you replied to, not Skullheart.


So, the entire geth race became retarded, except for Legion? How do you explain that?

Sound like a ******-poor excuse from the geth / Legion to me, or just ******-poor writing from the writers. Or both. Take your pick.

Apologies, messed up the quote when trimming.

Legion, when you encounter him, already has the modified reaper code.  I don't remember them addressing exactly how he managed to modify it so it couldn't control him, but clearly it was.   Either way, Legion when you meet him isn't indicative of the whole of the Geth race after the attack.

I see. That makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Steelcan]

Just avoid this hole dhole debate. Sell Legion and if you side with the geth after listening to the Geth VI, congrats, you are insane.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

Yes. I trust that whatever Legion's done, it was smarter than what we did with the IFF. It's a small enough risk to be worth taking, and to not commit genocide in the process.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

Yes. I trust that whatever Legion's done, it was smarter than what we did with the IFF. It's a small enough risk to be worth taking, and to not commit genocide in the process.

.............. Small enough risk?  You run the risk of making every geth a slave for the Reapers again.

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

And yet the other 95% of the geth couldn't be bothered with what the Heretics did. They ALLOWED to Heretics to side with the reapers and they ALLOWED the heretics to trash human colonies and in the end of ME1 the Citadel. They didn't do ANYTHING about it. They didn't try to stop the Heretics, they didn't try to warn humanity or warn the council about the Heretics, nope, none of that.

The other 95% of the geth are just as bad and just as guilty as the 5% that turned Heretic.

They have no reason to help organic at 2183. They calculated that Sovereign would win no matter that. And no organic wouldhave trusted them, thye council was very clar at the not AI allowed (they killed innocent AIs on Citadel space after the Geth rise).

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

There where a billion other things the geth could have done. They could have fled from Rannoch. They could have tried to contact Shepard (he already sided with Legion in ME2 after all), they could have tried to negotiate with the quarians, they could have tried to wave the white flag or whatever. They DIDN'T EVEN TRY any of that. They just went straight to the reapers on a whim.

Tell what arethose billion things. They couldn't have fled from Rannoch because the quarian fleet was obsessed withdestroying every geth they see. The admiral board didn't want to start negotiations (Koris and Tali where the only quarians seeking peace). If aquarian Shi saw a white flag from the Geth they would just shoot at it (Geth dreadnought? ring a bell).

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something? Didn't they learn anything from the Heretics? Didn't they learn that the reapers have no interest in preserving the geth? Didn't they learn that there actually are organics willing to help them (Shepard and his crew) if they would just ask?

The quarians attack lowered their reasoning capability. They just chose survival over being anihilated.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Seriously, the geth's actions in ME3 simply CANNOT be justified. Not at all.

Quarians actions cannot be justified. They know that peacecould be achieved without a conflict with the geth. The supidity of three quarians caused this war.

Heretic_Hanar...

So, the entire geth race became retarded, except for Legion? How do you explain that?

Legion is an isolated unit to operate outside of the geth consensus. Really, you are talking a lot of the geth without knowing much about them.

Modifié par Skullheart, 18 mars 2013 - 05:06 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Just avoid this hole dhole debate. Sell Legion and if you side with the geth after listening to the Geth VI, congrats, you are insane.

I'd rather learn why this Geth saved my life on the Reaper. It did something that I, or any other living organic that wasn't indoctrinated has ever seen. It didn't shoot at me when it had a perfect headshot. It killed the husk that was about to grab me. 

Call it a hunch, but I think there's something going on here. And I intend to find out what it is.

[CronoDragoon]

Skullheart wrote...
Quarians actions cannot be justified. They know that peacecould be achieved without a conflict with the geth. The supidid of three quarians this war.

That's an important distinction, though. The geth decided collectively to ally with the Reapers; every single runtime is accountable. There are no "civilian" geth.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

Yes. I trust that whatever Legion's done, it was smarter than what we did with the IFF. It's a small enough risk to be worth taking, and to not commit genocide in the process.

.............. Small enough risk?  You run the risk of making every geth a slave for the Reapers again.

Hardly. I trust that Legion has ensured that it won't be the case; it, after all, has even more of a stake in this than I do.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
Quarians actions cannot be justified. They know that peacecould be achieved without a conflict with the geth. The supidid of three quarians this war.

That's an important distinction, though. The geth decided collectively to ally with the Reapers; every single runtime is accountable. There are no "civilian" geth.

I don't think that's the case. Legion said the consensus was difficult. In the end, the Geth wanted to live. The Quarians wanted to kill them all. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It's not what I would have done, and I don't agree with what they did, but I can understand why the Geth sided with the Reapers initially. 

[Skullheart]

CronoDragoon wrote...

That's an important distinction, though. The geth decided collectively to ally with the Reapers; every single runtime is accountable. There are no "civilian" geth.

As I said before, it was survival vs extinction. And there are "geth civilians." don't you remember the farmers unit from before the war? or what about the units that have been restoring Rannoch echsystem since the end of the morning war?

Modifié par Skullheart, 18 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[The Heretic of Time]

[quote]Skullheart wrote...

They have no reason to help organic at 2183. They calculated that Sovereign would win no matter that. And no organic wouldhave trusted them, thye council was very clar at the not AI allowed (they killed innocent AIs on Citadel space after the Geth rise).
[/quote]

None of this is true.

The geth never said they calculated Sovereign would win. Sounds like something you just made up.

And the council never killed AIs on the Citadel AFTER the geth rise, because AIs were already illegal BEFORE the geth rise. So again, sounds like you're mixing things up or making things up.


The thing is, that Sovereign would never win if the geth would simply start a war against their own Heretics and destroy them. 95% of the geth versus 5% of the geth. Don't tell me that the 95% couldn't win that. If they would simply destroy the Heretics, Saren/Sovereign would no longer have the resources to continue their plan, it's as simple as that.

So sorry if I don't take your argument seriously. It sounds like a lot of bullcrap. The geth had no reason to think Sovereign would win regardless of what they did, unless the geth are dumb or retarded.


[quote]
They couldn't have fled from Rannoch because the quarian fleet was obsessed withdestroying every geth they see.
[/quote]

The geth were obsessed with destroying every quarian they saw during the Morning War, yet the quarians managed to succesfully flee Rannoch.

So yes, the geth COULD have fled Rannoch.


[quote]
The admiral board didn't want to start negotiations (Koris and Tali where the only quarians seeking peace). If aquarian Shi saw a white flag from the Geth they would just shoot at it (Geth dreadnought? ring a bell).
[/quote]

Koris and Tali sought peace and Raan was also in favor of peace. That's 60% of the quarian admirals in favor of peace. So don't tell me that negotiations weren't possible.


[quote]
Are the geth just stupid or retarded or something? Didn't they learn anything from the Heretics? Didn't they learn that the reapers have no interest in preserving the geth? Didn't they learn that there actually are organics willing to help them (Shepard and his crew) if they would just ask?[/quote]

The quarians attack lowered their reasoning capability. They just chose survival over being anihilated.
[/quote]

So they just conveniently forgot that the reapers don't care about the geth and would anihilate them as soon as the reaper war is over?

Joining the reapers only postponed their anihilation, it didn't prevent it.


[quote]

Quarians actions cannot be justified. They know that peace could be achieved without a conflict with the geth. The supidid of three quarians this war.

[/quote]

Yes the quarian actions CAN be justified. The f*cking geth stole their home planet and refused to return it to them. In the meantime the quarians DID send diplomats towards the geth (Tali said so in ME1) and ALL of them got just shot down. I would be bloody pissed off as well if I was a quarian.

Sorry, but the geth are at fault here, not the quarians.

[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

That's an important distinction, though. The geth decided collectively to ally with the Reapers; every single runtime is accountable. There are no "civilian" geth.

As I said before, it was survival vs extinction. And there are "geth civilians." don't you remember the farmers unit from before the war? or what about the units that have been restoring Rannoch echsystem since the end of the morning war?

No, there aren't any "geth civilians". Every single geth progam can be uploaded into a combat platform and be made combat-ready on a whim. Legion even said so himself I believe.

So no, "geth civilians" is a load of horsecrap, they don't exist.

[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

Heretic_Hanar...

So, the entire geth race became retarded, except for Legion? How do you explain that?

Legion is an isolated unit to operate outside of the geth consensus. Really, you are talking a lot of the geth without knowing much about them.

So you're saying that Legion alone has more geth programs running on his platform than the entire geth collective?

After all, we know that geth become more intelligent in higher numbers. The more geth programs working together, the smarter they are.

So you're just saying, that the entire geth species have fewed geth programs running than Legion alone? That doesn't make any sense.


I know my lore. So don't lecture me.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 mars 2013 - 05:20 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

That is your interpretation.  Was the main character organic?  If so, how is what the author said not invariably the result of the accounts the main character heard from the history as told by organics?

Because the author is the creator of the true history. It's very convenient for you to handwave any information presented to us as "organic bias" but I can play that game, too.

Legion lied about the heretics. There never were any heretics. What happened was that the geth got their ass whupped by the Alliance in ME1 and became scared that the Council would approve a joint-effort to go into the Perseus Veil and wipe them out. So they fabricated the story about the heretics and brought Shepard to a space station full of geth so he could destroy them. There was no virus to rewrite the heretics.

Notice you can't prove anything I say wrong because Legion is the only person who can confirm or deny the existence of heretics. We take everything he says on faith, and we see in ME3 he's willing to lie for the survival of his species.

Of course, it's clear that we're supposed to take the heretic plot as truth because that's how stories work.

Yes the author is the creator of the true history not you.  I didn't read the passage to judge for myself what the author's intent was ie was he explaining true history to merely reflecting what the protagonist (ie an organic) thinks the true history to be.  Given you are obviously on the other side of the debate, why do you think I would accept your statement as fact when it could just be your interpretation of the author's intent. 

Have organics lied?  By your logic we have no proof that the Quarians were not genocidal maniacs and the fact a guy like Admiral Ghereal was put in charge of the Heavy Fleet suggests the Quarians trust fanatics more than they do sensible people.  That dude was willing to kill you after you bailed his a** out. The Salarians uplifted a people they knew were not ready for it to serve as cannon fodder against the Rachni and then when they rebelled they created the genophage to stop them.  The Turians planted a bomb under Tuchanka for the same reason.  The Asari hid the existence of a beacon so they could develop into the pre-eminent race in the galaxy.  So my point is why do organics get a pass for their lies and misdeeds?

[CronoDragoon]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't think that's the case. Legion said the consensus was difficult. In the end, the Geth wanted to live. The Quarians wanted to kill them all. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There is only one geth. Conflicting votes in the consensus is analogous to conflicting thoughts within one individual mind; it's not a democracy of individuals. Once a consensus has been reached "the geth" has agreed on a course of action and all runtimes connected to the consensus accept the judgment.

This is also why it doesn't make sense to speak of "farmer units." Those are just mobile platforms for carrying the same type of geth runtimes that exists in platforms engaged in war.

There are no civilian geth.

It's not what I would have done, and I don't agree with what they did, but I can understand why the Geth sided with the Reapers initially.

Oh, I completely understand why they did it. I'm just confused why some people think understanding the motivation for something absolves blame. If someone throws a kid at a bear charging them to save themselves, I can both understand and condemn their action.

[remydat]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Well, the bright side is you don't have to worry about.

If you're not willing to use dangerous Reaper tech, you can't make it there anyway. The Mass Relays are known to have an explicit purpose of manipulating species to a particular type of technological evolution, and the Omega 5 relay demonstrates clearly it can have immediate dangerous in addition to the more general malevolent intent.

So either you're willing to use Reaper tech known to be both dangerous and subversive, or you're not making it to Rannoch anyway.

There is a huge difference between ME using reaper tech and the GETH using reaper tech.

There is also a huge difference between reverse-engineered reaper weapons (Thanix cannon) and a reaper code in the hands on an entire synthetic race.

SOME reaper tech can and should be used, while SOME other reaper tech can't or shouldn't be used.

And since the code is nothing but an enhancement that poses no threat to your own side, it also should be used.

How does a code that allows the reapers to control the geth not pose a threat to my side?

Another question: Why the f*ck should I trust those damn geth with that upgrade when they WILLINGLY sided with the reapers on a whim, TWICE?


Yeah, no, sorry, the geth can f*ck off and die already.

Heretics sided with the Reapers the first time.  If they Geth opposed them and Sovereign they would either lose and be exterminated or win at a terrible cost and then be exterminated by the Quarians who would take the opportunity to wipe them out despite their attempt to fight for organics.  Or do you think Admiral Gherel would have appreciated the Geth sacrifice.  Their worst crime the first time was not warning organics who probably would not have believed them anyways considering the Council didn't even believe Shepard after he saved them.

The second time the Quarians were going to exterminate them for good.  I don't think siding with the enemy of your enemy when your enemy is trying to wipe you off the face of the universe for all eternity is a whim.  Was it a whim when the Salarians uplighted the Krogan even though they knew the Krogan were not ready for it.  Or did they when faced with extinction say screw up, let's use the Krogan as cannon fodder and then when they became a problem later did they not say screw it, let's create the genophage.  So again, how are the Geth any different than organics when faced with extinction.  They made difficult choices just like the Salarians.

Here is what I know, Legion has proven he will kill Geth to protect organics.  Please find me an example outside of those dead Quarians that the other Quarians murdered where someone went against their race to save another race.  Outside of Shepard and his crew, they never do.  Even when the Reapers attacked, the various races were happy to leave the others to die if not for Shepard brining them together by basically bribing them.

Modifié par remydat, 18 mars 2013 - 05:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
Yes the author is the creator of the true history not you.  I didn't read the passage to judge for myself what the author's intent was ie was he explaining true history to merely reflecting what the protagonist (ie an organic) thinks the true history to be.  Given you are obviously on the other side of the debate, why do you think I would accept your statement as fact when it could just be your interpretation of the author's intent.

Well then either go read the passage and form your opinion or concede this point. "I dunno haven't read it" isn't a counterpoint. 

Have organics lied?  By your logic we have no proof that the Quarians were not genocidal maniacs and the fact a guy like Admiral Ghereal was put in charge of the Heavy Fleet suggests the Quarians trust fanatics more than they do sensible people.  That dude was willing to kill you after you bailed his a** out. The Salarians uplifted a people they knew were not ready for it to serve as cannon fodder against the Rachni and then when they rebelled they created the genophage to stop them.  The Turians planted a bomb under Tuchanka for the same reason.  The Asari hid the existence of a beacon so they could develop into the pre-eminent race in the galaxy.  So my point is why do organics get a pass for their lies and misdeeds?

Everything you just said strengthens my point that I was making with the "Legion lied" example, which is that if we allow bias as a means to disregard exposition of the story, then we don't know ANYTHING about the geth OR the quarians and this discussion is pointless.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 mars 2013 - 05:32 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

Yes. I trust that whatever Legion's done, it was smarter than what we did with the IFF. It's a small enough risk to be worth taking, and to not commit genocide in the process.

.............. Small enough risk?  You run the risk of making every geth a slave for the Reapers again.

Hardly. I trust that Legion has ensured that it won't be the case; it, after all, has even more of a stake in this than I do.

. And what if it isn't Legion?  And for all we know he could be carrying out the Reaper's wishes. His sudden change in personality, his hiding critical information....

[cdzander]

I didn't play through 3 whole games full of missions in which Quarians were shooting at me...
Just the one time I happened to be on an enemy capital ship.

But I've had to duck an awful lot of Geth firepower.
Sure, blame the Heretics. Or Reapers. Or Saren. Or Sovereign. Still a huge amount of Geth shooting at me over the course of the trilogy. They chose that path. They don't get preferential treatment. If someone has to go...

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Xilizhra you trust the Reaper software, yet Reaper software has before been shown to cause havoc. The IFF resulted in most of the Normandy's crew being abducted. I powered down the ship and transmitted its location. And you think it's a good idea to give it to every geth?

Yes. I trust that whatever Legion's done, it was smarter than what we did with the IFF. It's a small enough risk to be worth taking, and to not commit genocide in the process.

.............. Small enough risk?  You run the risk of making every geth a slave for the Reapers again.

Hardly. I trust that Legion has ensured that it won't be the case; it, after all, has even more of a stake in this than I do.

. And what if it isn't Legion?  And for all we know he could be carrying out the Reaper's wishes. His sudden change in personality, his hiding critical information....

Legion's personality hasn't changed noticeably for me, and it's been too helpful against the Reapers thus far for me to suddenly distrust it. Even not disclosing information is a previously established character trait from ME2.

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

None of this is true.

The geth never said they calculated Sovereign would win. Sounds like something you just made up.

Dialogue with Legion in ME2.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

And the council never killed AIs on the Citadel AFTER the geth rise, because AIs were already illegal BEFORE the geth rise. So again, sounds like you're mixing things up or making things up.

Citadel archives, Turians agents destroys three unarmed mechs housing AIs.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
The thing is, that Sovereign would never win if the geth would simply start a war against their own Heretics and destroy them. 95% of the geth versus 5% of the geth. Don't tell me that the 95% couldn't win that. If they would simply destroy the Heretics, Saren/Sovereign would no longer have the resources to continue their plan, it's as simple as that.

They had no reason to fight the herethics by that time. The herethic siding with Sovereign was a logic decision, but they considerated the decision to remain isolated. The geth perceived the herethics as enemies after they found about the reaper virus to brainwash them (this happens in 2185)

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The geth were obsessed with destroying every quarian they saw during the Morning War, yet the quarians managed to succesfully flee Rannoch.

So yes, the geth COULD have fled Rannoch.

Te geth spared the last quarians,they weren't obsessed with their anihilation. And if you side with the quarians the geth ships tries to flee, however the quarians destroy them instead.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Koris and Tali sought peace and Raan was also in favor of peace. That's 60% of the quarian admirals in favor of peace. So don't tell me that negotiations weren't possible.

Raan sided with Gerrel to go to war. Did you really pay atention to the game or what?

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So they just conveniently forgot that the reapers don't care about the geth and would anihilate them as soon as the reaper war is over?

Joining the reapers only postponed their anihilation, it didn't prevent it.

Let's see,the reapers wanted to use them, offering them a newlevelof existence after being harvested. While the quarians offered them... extinction? 

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yes the quarian actions CAN be justified. The f*cking geth stole their home planet and refused to return it to them. In the meantime the quarians DID send diplomats towards the geth (Tali said so in ME1) and ALL of them got just shot down. I would be bloody pissed off as well if I was a quarian.

Sorry, but the geth are at fault here, not the quarians.

The quarians were the agressors in the morning war. And the geth only took the planet to ensure their survival. They even strart,Tali just sais that the geth isolated themselves and never tried to contact anyone outside the veil. The quarians never tried to communicate with the geth after the morning war. Every interaction betwen the quarians and the geth after the war are quarians attacks against the geths.

The quarians are a race that are clearly agressors in all they known conflicts (don't forget gerrel doing strikes at turians frontiers and the unconfirmed quarian attack against human minning fleet).

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So sorry if I don't take your argument seriously. It sounds like a lot of bullcrap.

Sorry if I can't take your arguments seriosly because they are based on omitting facts, and are based in something like... head canon.

Modifié par Skullheart, 18 mars 2013 - 05:56 .

[Iamjdr]

I don't see why the Geth didn't try to fight saren and sovereign when they arrived. I mean if the Geth that went with him were really only a small portion of the "true Geth" then there should have been plenty to take down sovvy when he arrived in the Perseus viel. But instead they just let the heretics go with him to help bring the reapers into the galaxy. And what if they had been successful? They would have doomed the whole galaxy way back in me1. But it already let's give them reaper code and let them murder our allies! But Geth are alive now yaaaay! Aww to bad the quarians who were alive for 300+ years are now extinct and cant be rebuilt unlike the geth. Seems a sound idea, let's murder our allies who are already alive and have already help kill a reaper. the same reaper that the geth were just getting buddy buddy with ( seeing as that reaper had his own underground lair build for him on rannoch)but its okay cause the robots want to be real boys and that's more important then the death of a preexisting species . And The Geth may have units working on agriculture but those are NOT civilians, it defiantly shows that agri unit pick up a widow sniper rifle in the consensus. All Geth are combatants, they don't have children,women,elderly,sick, to hold them back.... You know, civilians.....