4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Venom man4]

 As a Talimancer picking the Geth isn't going to score you any points with your lady.

[Phatose]

Allies?

I seem to remember the Quarians doing precisely nothing to help. They're not allies.

[ForThessia]

I find it disturbing that so many people would choose a bunch of lying machines over a living, breathing race. Truly.

[The Heretic of Time]

Skullheart wrote...

They had no reason to fight the herethics by that time.

They had EVERY reason to fight the heretics at that time. If the heretics win, the reapers arrive, and they would slaughter all advanced species, INCLUDING the geth.

Seriously, by your silly logic, I could just as wel say that we have no reason to fight Cerberus in ME3. It's the same thing really.

Let's see,the reapers wanted to use them, offering them a newlevelof existence after being harvested. While the quarians offered them... extinction? 

That "new level of existence" is no different than extinction. Or are you now saying you approve of the reapers "ascending" advanced life to reaperhood?

Not to mention that the reapers where lying and the geth knew that. We all know that the reapers would destroy the geth after the reaper war.

The quarians were the agressors in the morning war.

For good reasons.

And the geth only took the planet to ensure their survival.

Which is bullsh*t because the geth don't need a planet to survive, Legion says so himself.

They even strart,Tali just sais that the geth isolated themselves and never tried to contact anyone outside the veil. The quarians never tried to communicate with the geth after the morning war. Every interaction betwen the quarians and the geth after the war are quarians attacks against the geths.

Not true. Tali says people did try to contact the geth and I believe Legion says so too. And every single attempt at contacting the geth ended with the contactors getting killed.

Sorry if I can't take your arguments seriosly because they are based on omitting facts, and are based in something like... head canon.

Pot, kettle, black. Go figure.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
Yes the author is the creator of the true history not you.  I didn't read the passage to judge for myself what the author's intent was ie was he explaining true history to merely reflecting what the protagonist (ie an organic) thinks the true history to be.  Given you are obviously on the other side of the debate, why do you think I would accept your statement as fact when it could just be your interpretation of the author's intent.

Well then either go read the passage and form your opinion or concede this point. "I dunno haven't read it" isn't a counterpoint. 

Have organics lied?  By your logic we have no proof that the Quarians were not genocidal maniacs and the fact a guy like Admiral Ghereal was put in charge of the Heavy Fleet suggests the Quarians trust fanatics more than they do sensible people.  That dude was willing to kill you after you bailed his a** out. The Salarians uplifted a people they knew were not ready for it to serve as cannon fodder against the Rachni and then when they rebelled they created the genophage to stop them.  The Turians planted a bomb under Tuchanka for the same reason.  The Asari hid the existence of a beacon so they could develop into the pre-eminent race in the galaxy.  So my point is why do organics get a pass for their lies and misdeeds?

Everything you just said strengthens my point that I was making with the "Legion lied" example, which is that if we allow bias as a means to disregard exposition of the story, then we don't know ANYTHING about the geth OR the quarians and this discussion is pointless.

Is it available online for free then I will read it but I don't have to concede anything.  I already told you even if the passage is true as you interpret it, the Council has laws banning the existence of entities like the Geth.  The Quarians tried to committ genocide against them.  The Perseus Veil is their space.  You are asking them to trust a group whose official policy is to prevent them from existing and whose members (Quarians) tried to erase them from existence.  It would be nice if the Geth trusted organics and heard them out but given the policy and the history that is not the safest course of action necessarily.  Also, did these ships have weapons on them?  If so, not sure why the Geth should trust them no matter what they claim their mission is.  Would you trust Al Qaeda if they came knocking on your door in an armored vehicle saying they wanted to talk?

[Alxea_Eve]

In my new play through I was able to save them both and make peace.

[Iamjdr]

@Phatos
Nothing to help? They literally just took out a reaper before your forced to choose weather or not to let the Geth upload the code.helping me kill reapers Sounds like allies to me. And the only reason your even there is because Hackett sent you to get the quarians to help with the war, not the Geth. what have the Geth done for me besides join the reapers twice and try to stop me from killing the rannoch reaper..... Super trustworthy

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

Allies?

I seem to remember the Quarians doing precisely nothing to help. They're not allies.

They offered their entire fleet to the war effort, once said ships are no longer packed to the rafters with civilians and reliant on daily food shipments. After the Vallum blast on Taetrus, they gave substantial material aid to Turian survivors while other, better-off species just made grand symbolic gestures of support. They acknowledged the Reaper threat, unlike all of the Council races, and did what they had to do to make themselves available to help.

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Is it available online for free then I will read it but I don't have to concede anything.  I already told you even if the passage is true as you interpret it, the Council has laws banning the existence of entities like the Geth.  The Quarians tried to committ genocide against them.  The Perseus Veil is their space.  You are asking them to trust a group whose official policy is to prevent them from existing and whose members (Quarians) tried to erase them from existence.  It would be nice if the Geth trusted organics and heard them out but given the policy and the history that is not the safest course of action necessarily.  Also, did these ships have weapons on them?  If so, not sure why the Geth should trust them no matter what they claim their mission is.  Would you trust Al Qaeda if they came knocking on your door in an armored vehicle saying they wanted to talk?

I never claimed the geth should trust organics. I'm only showing that the geth never attempted peace after driving out the quarians, which is what you claimed. The geth were actually fine with being "oppressed" by the galaxy, if by oppressed you mean left to their own devices in the Perseus Veil (which is ultimately what happened).

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Allies?

I seem to remember the Quarians doing precisely nothing to help. They're not allies.

They offered their entire fleet to the war effort, once said ships are no longer packed to the rafters with civilians and reliant on daily food shipments. After the Vallum blast on Taetrus, they gave substantial material aid to Turian survivors while other, better-off species just made grand symbolic gestures of support. They acknowledged the Reaper threat, unlike all of the Council races, and did what they had to do to make themselves available to help.

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Ultimately irrelevant. Both races will play their part in the end.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Allies?

I seem to remember the Quarians doing precisely nothing to help. They're not allies.

They offered their entire fleet to the war effort, once said ships are no longer packed to the rafters with civilians and reliant on daily food shipments. After the Vallum blast on Taetrus, they gave substantial material aid to Turian survivors while other, better-off species just made grand symbolic gestures of support. They acknowledged the Reaper threat, unlike all of the Council races, and did what they had to do to make themselves available to help.

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Ultimately irrelevant. Both races will play their part in the end.

And again you're using meta-game arguments against in-character arguments. 

[andy6915]

@remydat

You can be mindless and evil at the same time, there's no contradiction. The key is being mindless but CONTROLLED by an evil being, as in Harbinger.

Oh, and the Geth would "risk" themselves" to deal with heretic? Clearly you didn't actually read my previous posts. Remember the part where I said Geth outnumbered heretic 10 to 1? That is such an overwhelming number that Geth could have wiped them out easily, with barely any effort.

The Alliance is expected to risk itself against Cerberus, because it's a job of a species to keep their crazies in check when said crazies threaten other races... Exactly like the heretics do to other species. Except according to you, it's not the Geth's problem when 1/10 of their people decide to go genocidal on everyone else.

Modifié par andy69156915, 18 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[Iamjdr]

But both races don't kill a reaper on Rannoch. Just the Quarians do that, while the Geth were actively trying to stop me from killing it. That isn't irrelevant.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...
Legion's personality hasn't changed noticeably for me, and it's been too helpful against the Reapers thus far for me to suddenly distrust it. Even not disclosing information is a previously established character trait from ME2.

. "Geth build our own future, the heretics asked the Ild Machines to give them the future"

which one applies to Legion in ME3? 

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Legion's personality hasn't changed noticeably for me, and it's been too helpful against the Reapers thus far for me to suddenly distrust it. Even not disclosing information is a previously established character trait from ME2.

. "Geth build our own future, the heretics asked the Ild Machines to give them the future"

which one applies to Legion in ME3? 

The former.  He's not controlled, he's chained up in that destroyer, and he's doing what he can to free the rest of the Geth from Reaper control without getting them all exterminated.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Legion's personality hasn't changed noticeably for me, and it's been too helpful against the Reapers thus far for me to suddenly distrust it. Even not disclosing information is a previously established character trait from ME2.

. "Geth build our own future, the heretics asked the Ild Machines to give them the future"

which one applies to Legion in ME3? 

The former.  He's not controlled, he's chained up in that destroyer, and he's doing what he can to free the rest of the Geth from Reaper control without getting them all exterminated.

. Well you guessed wrong.  ME2 Legion supports autonomy from the Reapers, a refusal of their gifts.  Come ME3 "Give me Reaper code or ill try to kill you"

[Iamjdr]

All the Geth are heretics in me3.

[S.A.K]

I wish there was dialogue choice like this.

Legion : We only acted in self defence. Do we deserve death?
Shepard : Hell yeah.

Or

Legion : Does this unit have a soul?
Shepard : No! *BANG!*

[Skullheart]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

They had EVERY reason to fight the heretics at that time. If the heretics win, the reapers arrive, and they would slaughter all advanced species, INCLUDING the geth.

Seriously, by your silly logic, I could just as wel say that we have no reason to fight Cerberus in ME3. It's the same thing really.

Sovereign and the reapers weren't presented as an enemy to them in 2183. Sovereign offered to ascend them to a reaper form (their collective intelligence would reside in reaper form). The herethics chose to do it the reaper way, while the true geth decided to reach this state by themselves. And again, the reapers weren't a treat to the geth until 2185 after the discovered the reaper virus to brain wash them.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That "new level of existence" is no different than extinction. Or are you now saying you approve of the reapers "ascending" advanced life to reaperhood?

Not to mention that the reapers where lying and the geth knew that. We all know that the reapers would destroy the geth after the reaper war.

The geth final objective was to upload allof them to a station (Th dyson spherething). The reaper would harvest them and the geth would live in reaper form. The starbrat explains that the reapers harvest both organic and synthetic species. They are synthetics, so they don't see the harvest as abominable like the organics do. At the end, they decided to reach that state by themselves.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
The quarians were the agressors in the morning war.

For good reasons.

Let's see, the geth were achieving a state of sentient species, they still wanted to serve the quarians.And the quarian started to kill them. I don't see your logic there.

Heretic_Hanar...
Which is bullsh*t because the geth don't need a planet to survive, Legion says so himself.

And they are the care takes of the planet, waiting for the return of the quarians toachieve peace. However the quarians never wanted peace with the geth, they even killed their own people who sided with the geth.

Heretic_Hanar...

Not true. Tali says people did try to contact the geth and I believe Legion says so too. And every single attempt at contacting the geth ended with the contactors getting killed.

Legion states that Shepard was the only organic that communicated with the geth after the morning war. However I have to say that every ship that ventured into the veil was destroyed, however it's never said that the ships venturing into the veil were in diplomatic missions. Legion states that every times the quarian believed in victory they attack the geth (Koris confirm this).

Modifié par Skullheart, 18 mars 2013 - 06:36 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

Is it available online for free then I will read it but I don't have to concede anything.  I already told you even if the passage is true as you interpret it, the Council has laws banning the existence of entities like the Geth.  The Quarians tried to committ genocide against them.  The Perseus Veil is their space.  You are asking them to trust a group whose official policy is to prevent them from existing and whose members (Quarians) tried to erase them from existence.  It would be nice if the Geth trusted organics and heard them out but given the policy and the history that is not the safest course of action necessarily.  Also, did these ships have weapons on them?  If so, not sure why the Geth should trust them no matter what they claim their mission is.  Would you trust Al Qaeda if they came knocking on your door in an armored vehicle saying they wanted to talk?

I never claimed the geth should trust organics. I'm only showing that the geth never attempted peace after driving out the quarians, which is what you claimed. The geth were actually fine with being "oppressed" by the galaxy, if by oppressed you mean left to their own devices in the Perseus Veil (which is ultimately what happened).

When did I say they attempted peace prior to commander Shepard?  I confess I have a lot of posts so perhaps I misspoke somewhere but I was never claiming they attempted peace prior to Shepard.  My point about peace was they were willing to accept peace when Shepard showed through his actions he could be trusted.  I don't think any organic proved they wanted peace before that.

If official council policy is that I should not exist then the Council should not be sending living people into my space in an armored spaceship.  Your policy can in and of itself be considered an act of war against any synthetic race.  You have not proven you can be trusted so if you want to talk to me then you should probably send a drone or communicate in some other way that cannot be construed as a threat.  There can be no discussion period until you acknwledge my right to exist.

The policy against synthetic life is oppression in and of itself.  Do you not understand that?

[Reorte]

Steelcan wrote...
 Well you guessed wrong.  ME2 Legion supports autonomy from the Reapers, a refusal of their gifts.  Come ME3 "Give me Reaper code or ill try to kill you"

That's a bit of a problem I've got with the Rannoch thing. Faced with extermination I could see them taking the Reaper code, if it would save them but it's not necessary for peace (all Shepard tells the quarian fleet is that the geth will be coming back online soon). Anyway, I find the "Reaper code makes the geth more like us and we so assume that that's a good thing it never even occurs to us to let you question it" message offensive.

[Skullheart]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Legion tells you after the dreanought mission that the geth were preparing to fight against the reaper, but the quarians screwed those plans. There's also the primes that promised to join the war effort after the situation on Rannoch is dealt.

The Geths and the Krogans (if Wrex is leading them) were the only races that prepared for awar against the reapers.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
When did I say they attempted peace prior to commander Shepard?  I confess I have a lot of posts so perhaps I misspoke somewhere but I was never claiming they attempted peace prior to Shepard.  My point about peace was they were willing to accept peace when Shepard showed through his actions he could be trusted.  I don't think any organic proved they wanted peace before that.

If official council policy is that I should not exist then the Council should not be sending living people into my space in an armored spaceship.  Your policy can in and of itself be considered an act of war against any synthetic race.  You have not proven you can be trusted so if you want to talk to me then you should probably send a drone or communicate in some other way that cannot be construed as a threat.  There can be no discussion period until you acknwledge my right to exist.

The policy against synthetic life is oppression in and of itself.  Do you not understand that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you pointed out that the quarians immediately launched into war against the geth on Rannoch instead of trying for peace. So this whole discussion has been a way to conclude that based on the actions of the geth, peace was not possible (without Shepard's actions). If the quarians wanted their homeworld back, then war was the next logical step.

Where are you getting that the diplomatic ships were basically warships?

You also talk of oppression, but the geth aren't a part of society nor do they wish to be. Frankly. the geth could care less about Council laws so long as they are left alone.

You also are not required to trust your enemy to make peace.

[Steelcan]

Skullheart wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Legion tells you after the dreanought mission that the geth were preparing to fight against the reaper, but the quarians screwed those plans. There's also the primes that promised to join the war effort after the situation on Rannoch is dealt.

The Geths and the Krogans (if Wrex is leading them) were the only races that prepared for awar against the reapers.

. And the quarians and Cerberus