4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

remydat wrote...


When did I say they attempted peace prior to commander Shepard?  I confess I have a lot of posts so perhaps I misspoke somewhere but I was never claiming they attempted peace prior to Shepard.  My point about peace was they were willing to accept peace when Shepard showed through his actions he could be trusted.  I don't think any organic proved they wanted peace before that.

If official council policy is that I should not exist then the Council should not be sending living people into my space in an armored spaceship.  Your policy can in and of itself be considered an act of war against any synthetic race.  You have not proven you can be trusted so if you want to talk to me then you should probably send a drone or communicate in some other way that cannot be construed as a threat.  There can be no discussion period until you acknwledge my right to exist.

The policy against synthetic life is oppression in and of itself.  Do you not understand that?

A bit of give and take on both sides is needed. Turning up armed when facing a bunch whose track record largely consists of killing people sounds like common sense. It might let you escape. And a single armed ship is hardly a threat to the geth so they've no just cause in shooting it down without hearing what it has to say first.

I can understand the geth isolating themselves, but if they truly wanted to not be regarded as a bunch of trigger-happy maniacs they should've at least told any approaching vessels to sod off before shooting at them.

[Phatose]

Given that the council species have outright outlawed all AIs, and simply creating the Geth was enough to get the Quarians kicked out of the Citadel, the Geth are pretty well reasoned in staying away from the council.

It's a little bit impossible to join a society where your very existence is considered a crime.

[Jukaga]

S.A.K wrote...

I wish there was dialogue choice like this.

Legion : We only acted in self defence. Do we deserve death?
Shepard : Hell yeah.

Or

Legion : Does this unit have a soul?
Shepard : No! *BANG!*

I would have appreciated being able to follow Javik's advice and blow him out the airlock. There is no reason to trust anything Legion says after you disconnect him from the Reaper device.

'We are too complicated to be controlled'

Bull****e. Lies, lies and more lies from Legion and then a direct death threat when I don't want to enable his race to wipe out the Quarians? How am I supposed to 'know' I can talk down two fleets gunning for each other at the climax of a multi-century war of annihilation?

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

@remydat

You can be mindless and evil at the same time, there's no contradiction. The key is being mindless but CONTROLLED by an evil being, as in Harbinger.

Oh, and the Geth would "risk" themselves" to deal with heretic? Clearly you didn't actually read my previous posts. Remember the part where I said Geth outnumbered heretic 10 to 1? That is such an overwhelming number that Geth could have wiped them out easily, with barely any effort.

The Alliance is expected to risk itself against Cerberus, because it's a job of a species to keep their crazies in check when said crazies threaten other races... Exactly like the heretics do to other species. Except according to you, it's not the Geth's problem when 1/10 of their people decide to go genocidal on everyone else.

The Collectors have no ability to distinguish right from wrong.  They have no ability to decide what is good or evil.  They legally cannot be held accoutable for the evil acts and if you are not responsible for the evil acts then how are you evil?  If you want to have your own personal ideas on morality then fine but I am talking about what the law says.

The Heretics have Sovereign on their side.  The same guy who single handedly almost took down the citadel.  Unless you think the Geth are stronger than all organics combined, Sovereign makes their numerical superiority to the heretics obselete.  If they fight they will lose a lot of lives.

The Alliance doesn't have to worry about their war with Cerebus being used by other organic races as an opportunity to wipe them from existence.  The Geth fighting a protracted war against the heretics and Sovereign leaves them vulnerable for Admiral Gherel and his crazies.  Why would the Geth risk that when no one will come to their aid?  The Alliance is fighting Cerberus because Cerberus is a threat to THEM AND THEIR ALLIES.  The Reapers are not a threat to the Geth or their allies because the Geth have no allies. 

[Reorte]

Phatose wrote...

Given that the council species have outright outlawed all AIs, and simply creating the Geth was enough to get the Quarians kicked out of the Citadel, the Geth are pretty well reasoned in staying away from the council.

It's a little bit impossible to join a society where your very existence is considered a crime.

IIRC the timestamp on the record of AIs on the Citadel getting killed (in the Citadel DLC) was after the geth kicked the quarians off Rannoch, which rather complicates things.

[justafan]

Skullheart wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Legion tells you after the dreanought mission that the geth were preparing to fight against the reaper, but the quarians screwed those plans. There's also the primes that promised to join the war effort after the situation on Rannoch is dealt.

The Geths and the Krogans (if Wrex is leading them) were the only races that prepared for awar against the reapers.

I believe what Deinon was getting at was that while the Geth were preparing to fight the Reapers, they never showed any intention of helping Organics fight the reapers.  The Geth were apparently going to try to take on the reapers themselves, or perhaps just wait it out in dark space, no indication was ever given that they intended to help anyone but themselves, while the Quarians tell you in ME2 they need to take Rannoch back so they can help the galaxy at large.

[Reorte]

Jukaga wrote...

Bull****e. Lies, lies and more lies from Legion and then a direct death threat when I don't want to enable his race to wipe out the Quarians? How am I supposed to 'know' I can talk down two fleets gunning for each other at the climax of a multi-century war of annihilation?

Hmm, the initial dialogue is rather "side of Legion" or "side with Tali", with no indication that you'll be able to get peace. It's a bit of a problem IMO that it requires metagaming to know what to do to attempt it.

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

Well, actually, Legion, being completely independant from the rest of the geth, is actually the only geth that DIDN'T side with the Reapers. And when given the choice, many geth truned against the choice as well, as showen by the very large number of geth primes that abandon the collective to join Legion in the"Geth Server" Mission.
It doesn't change the act of bowing to them, but it's as close as we ever get to seeing the geth (or at least some of them) regret a choice they made. In fact, Legion is the only geth I ever saw in the entrity of all three games that seemed to feel/openly express even a shread of shame or remorse at what the geth did, in both the Morning War, and in siding with the Reapers. The avarage, pre-Legion geth, (the Geth V.I. is the example of them before Legion met Shepard) would show no regret or remorse to what they did, or what they needed to do for their own personal survival.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 06:45 .

[Sundance31us]

justafan wrote...

I believe what Deinon was getting at was that while the Geth were preparing to fight the Reapers, they never showed any intention of helping Organics fight the reapers.  The Geth were apparently going to try to take on the reapers themselves, or perhaps just wait it out in dark space, no indication was ever given that they intended to help anyone but themselves, while the Quarians tell you in ME2 they need to take Rannoch back so they can help the galaxy at large.

So why did Legion bother tracking down Shepard in the first place? (ME2)

[S.A.K]

Reorte wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Bull****e. Lies, lies and more lies from Legion and then a direct death threat when I don't want to enable his race to wipe out the Quarians? How am I supposed to 'know' I can talk down two fleets gunning for each other at the climax of a multi-century war of annihilation?

Hmm, the initial dialogue is rather "side of Legion" or "side with Tali", with no indication that you'll be able to get peace. It's a bit of a problem IMO that it requires metagaming to know what to do to attempt it.

Well I take the Quarian side of the dialogue both times. Problem solved.

[justafan]

Sundance31us wrote...

justafan wrote...

I believe what Deinon was getting at was that while the Geth were preparing to fight the Reapers, they never showed any intention of helping Organics fight the reapers.  The Geth were apparently going to try to take on the reapers themselves, or perhaps just wait it out in dark space, no indication was ever given that they intended to help anyone but themselves, while the Quarians tell you in ME2 they need to take Rannoch back so they can help the galaxy at large.

So why did Legion bother tracking down Shepard in the first place? (ME2)

IIRC they viewed Shepard as an anomaly, someone able to inspire fear in the Reapers, hence why they wanted to understand him.  It was not to make contact with organic governments or to offer an alliance.  If that was they case, they wouldn't be wasteing their resources looking for a dead guy.

The Geth were looking for ways to combat/understand the Reapers, hence why Legion sought you and you meet him aboard a derelict Reaper, he was no doubt looking to expand Geth knowledge on the subject.  But if his mission was to offer aid to organics, he would have gone to an actual politician or government body.

Modifié par justafan, 18 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[andy6915]

Who said anything about legalities? I didn't. This is about ethics and morals. I don't give a damn about whether Collectors are legally accountable. Husks aren't either. Nor are Brutes. Or banshees. Or indeed, any Reaper tool. They're all evil yet mindless. Every damn one.

Except they could have stopped the heretics before they even tried to go to Sovereign. The moment heretics told the other Geth "well I'm going to go join Reapers now and slaughter as many organics as I can" the Geth should have responded with "no, we're already hated enough, if you try to do that we'll stop you... With force if necessary". They could have stopped them even before it got that far. But they didn't. Indeed they "understood the heretics desire to leave (and join Reapers and attempt genocide on organics)".

The heretics work with the Reapers, you say the Reapers ARE a threat to the Geth... Ergo, the heretics are a threat to the Geth. The fact that they've been spying on Geth patrol routes and made a virus to brainwash the rest is proof of that. So actually, the heretics ARE "a threat to the Geth or their allies".


Seriously, it's like logic is alien to you.

Modifié par andy69156915, 18 mars 2013 - 06:50 .

[Phatose]

Reorte wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Given that the council species have outright outlawed all AIs, and simply creating the Geth was enough to get the Quarians kicked out of the Citadel, the Geth are pretty well reasoned in staying away from the council.

It's a little bit impossible to join a society where your very existence is considered a crime.

IIRC the timestamp on the record of AIs on the Citadel getting killed (in the Citadel DLC) was after the geth kicked the quarians off Rannoch, which rather complicates things.

You don't actually need that information.   The morning war itself is evidence of the council's policies, and Tali tells you in the first game that they Geth were not meant to be true AIs because AIs were illegal back then.

[Khelish]

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

Well, actually, Legion, being completely independant from the rest of the geth, is actually the only geth that DIDN'T side with the Reapers. And when given the choice, many geth truned against the choice as well, as showen by the very large number of geth primes that abandon the collective to join Legion in the"Geth Server" Mission.
It doesn't change the act of bowing to them, but it's as close as we ever get to seeing the geth (or at least some of them) regret a choice they made. In fact, Legion is the only geth I ever saw in the entrity of all three games that seemed to feel/openly express even a shread of shame or remorse at what the geth did, in both the Morning War, and in siding with the Reapers. The avarage, pre-Legion geth, (the Geth V.I. is the example of them before Legion met Shepard) would show no regret or remorse to what they did, or what they needed to do for their own personal survival.

It doesn't change the fact they allowed the Reaper to come to Rannoch and propose a deal in the first place, prior to the war to take back Rannoch.

The Geth didn't turn them down, the Geth wanted to be slaves. They had a choice, and they chose to ally with the enemy of the galaxy. If humanity was at stake, I would rather die than live as a mindless slave.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Tell me: before the code upload, does Legion say anything to suggest the Geth were going to leave the Veil and actively help the other races? Anything at all? Or were the Geth going to ride it out in isolation as they've done for the last three hundred years, until the Quarians made their push?

Legion tells you after the dreanought mission that the geth were preparing to fight against the reaper, but the quarians screwed those plans. There's also the primes that promised to join the war effort after the situation on Rannoch is dealt.

The Geths and the Krogans (if Wrex is leading them) were the only races that prepared for awar against the reapers.

. And the quarians and Cerberus

And the Rachni, for what it was worth.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
When did I say they attempted peace prior to commander Shepard?  I confess I have a lot of posts so perhaps I misspoke somewhere but I was never claiming they attempted peace prior to Shepard.  My point about peace was they were willing to accept peace when Shepard showed through his actions he could be trusted.  I don't think any organic proved they wanted peace before that.

If official council policy is that I should not exist then the Council should not be sending living people into my space in an armored spaceship.  Your policy can in and of itself be considered an act of war against any synthetic race.  You have not proven you can be trusted so if you want to talk to me then you should probably send a drone or communicate in some other way that cannot be construed as a threat.  There can be no discussion period until you acknwledge my right to exist.

The policy against synthetic life is oppression in and of itself.  Do you not understand that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you pointed out that the quarians immediately launched into war against the geth on Rannoch instead of trying for peace. So this whole discussion has been a way to conclude that based on the actions of the geth, peace was not possible (without Shepard's actions). If the quarians wanted their homeworld back, then war was the next logical step.

Where are you getting that the diplomatic ships were basically warships?

You also talk of oppression, but the geth aren't a part of society nor do they wish to be. Frankly. the geth could care less about Council laws so long as they are left alone.

You also are not required to trust your enemy to make peace.

They launched into war when they knew from ME2 and Tali that there was disagreement among the Geth.  Tali even tells us she tries to advise them against war but is overruled.  I have never played without saving Legion in ME2 so not sure how it changes the story but in the world I played, the Quarians launched a war after evidence was presented that the Geth could potentially be reasoned with.

And I am not saying the diplomatic ships are war ships.  I am saying my understanding is that pretty much every spaceship is equipped with weapons unless it is completely civilian.  I don't think diplomatic ships are civilian in nature. 

The Geth were a part of society until the Quarians decided they were too smart for their own good and tried to exterminate them.  They remain distrustful because organics gave them no reason to trust them before Shepard.  Just because they adapted to their oppression doesn't mean they are not oppressed.

[silverexile17s]

Sundance31us wrote...

justafan wrote...

I believe what Deinon was getting at was that while the Geth were preparing to fight the Reapers, they never showed any intention of helping Organics fight the reapers.  The Geth were apparently going to try to take on the reapers themselves, or perhaps just wait it out in dark space, no indication was ever given that they intended to help anyone but themselves, while the Quarians tell you in ME2 they need to take Rannoch back so they can help the galaxy at large.

So why did Legion bother tracking down Shepard in the first place? (ME2)

They were facinated. An organic had managed to kill the "God" that had been worshiped by the Heretics. This piqued their curiosity, and they created Legion and sent it out to investigate. Legion spent the better (and worse) part of a few months tracking Shepard and learning about the Commander. Starting at Eden Prime, where a hole was shot through it, and ending at the Normandy's crash site on Alchera, where it discovered no trace of Shepard's body, but found fragments of Shepard's armor. The idea is that Legion felt a sense of admiration for the Commander and his/her achivements, and therefore strapped the armor to itself. The hole is also speculated to have been seen by Legion as being a badge of honor, hense why it never had the damage repaired properly.

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

Well, actually, Legion, being completely independant from the rest of the geth, is actually the only geth that DIDN'T side with the Reapers. And when given the choice, many geth truned against the choice as well, as showen by the very large number of geth primes that abandon the collective to join Legion in the"Geth Server" Mission.
It doesn't change the act of bowing to them, but it's as close as we ever get to seeing the geth (or at least some of them) regret a choice they made. In fact, Legion is the only geth I ever saw in the entrity of all three games that seemed to feel/openly express even a shread of shame or remorse at what the geth did, in both the Morning War, and in siding with the Reapers. The avarage, pre-Legion geth, (the Geth V.I. is the example of them before Legion met Shepard) would show no regret or remorse to what they did, or what they needed to do for their own personal survival.

It doesn't change the fact they allowed the Reaper to come to Rannoch and propose a deal in the first place, prior to the war to take back Rannoch.

The Geth didn't turn them down, the Geth wanted to be slaves. They had a choice, and they chose to ally with the enemy of the galaxy. If humanity was at stake, I would rather die than live as a mindless slave.

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silcron wrote...
In most cases I'll admit it's true, at least for any quarian supporter that defends the geth being alive and people.

In my case for me geth are just machines, for me killing the geth is like making electric cars mandatory and scrapping all the old ones. The geth I say aren't alive, so I can't kill them. I can erase the programs like I do when I deisntall a comple program like a videogame and let the quarians repurpose the remains, that is recycling.

Another why I kill the geth is because if I achieve peace or side with them they get the reaper code. And if a reaper IFF whose only purpose is to let ships use relays more accurately could call the collectors tohte normandy the moment the geth get reaper software upgrades all I see is sleeper agents. The firt time I achieved peace because I had ot rush the decision, I had to go and didn't want to replay the reaper again. When I got to Earth I kept expecting all the time a cutscene in which the reapers assume direct control of the geth and screw my army.

Look if you want to argue you kill them because you don't consider them more than just machines then so be it.  At least you are being honest.  However, your position is precisely the reason why the Reapers exist.  In the mass effect world, conflict is inevitably mainly because organics seem incapable of respecting synthetics right to exist.

AND because synthetics will always see the effort to make lasting peace as improbible, and never try it themselves.
LikeI KEEP telling you, it's the fault of BOTH.

[Reorte]

Phatose wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Given that the council species have outright outlawed all AIs, and simply creating the Geth was enough to get the Quarians kicked out of the Citadel, the Geth are pretty well reasoned in staying away from the council.

It's a little bit impossible to join a society where your very existence is considered a crime.

IIRC the timestamp on the record of AIs on the Citadel getting killed (in the Citadel DLC) was after the geth kicked the quarians off Rannoch, which rather complicates things.

You don't actually need that information.   The morning war itself is evidence of the council's policies, and Tali tells you in the first game that they Geth were not meant to be true AIs because AIs were illegal back then.

The problem is that the two pieces of information appear to contradict each other. The Citadel recording implies that the AIs were openly on the CItadel and openly negotiating; it felt like it was supposed to be the point at which AIs were declared illegal.

[Khelish]

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

[silverexile17s]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, I dislike genocide.

Then you should probably side against the race that just allied itself with a species bent on mass genocide of all advanced organic life.

I don't think the genocide of either race is fair.
Both sides acted out of desperation to live. Is it really fair to blame either the quarians or geth for just wanting to survive?
I don't think so. They both deserve the chance to live, and if it comes to it, I could not pick one side over the other wothout feeling remorse for it. The OLNY exception to that, is if the Geth V.I. replaces Legion.
But I've never let that happen yet, so thus far, nither choice has left me with a clean concionce.

[Jukaga]

Reorte wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Bull****e. Lies, lies and more lies from Legion and then a direct death threat when I don't want to enable his race to wipe out the Quarians? How am I supposed to 'know' I can talk down two fleets gunning for each other at the climax of a multi-century war of annihilation?

Hmm, the initial dialogue is rather "side of Legion" or "side with Tali", with no indication that you'll be able to get peace. It's a bit of a problem IMO that it requires metagaming to know what to do to attempt it.

To be sure, I have no problem with it. The peacemaker requires a leap of faith that my Shepard wasn't willing to make in my latest playthrough. It's a great part of the game that carries a heavy weight. It's just the way I see it, the only moral choice to make is to sacrifice the Geth for the sake of the Quarians regardless of who started that fight. Shepard has no way of knowing that her plan to bring peace will work; to fail means the extinction of an entire species.

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you? ANY race could crack under pressure like that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[Jukaga]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that wise, given that it works perfectly. In any case, I understand Legion's position on not wanting anything to potentially jeopardize its race's chances of survival, and not getting that any omissions might make it worse. The code itself is clearly trustworthy, and Legion's never harmed our own prospects against the Reapers before.

Metagaming, don't you love it?

Without metagaming, you have no way to know if that code would turn on you in the end.

Legion allowed Heretics to worship Reapers, then joined them himself when backed into a corner. Legion is not your robot in shining armor. He would sooner run to Reapers and sell his "soul", rather than fight to the death. That course of action is unforgivable.

Well, actually, Legion, being completely independant from the rest of the geth, is actually the only geth that DIDN'T side with the Reapers. And when given the choice, many geth truned against the choice as well, as showen by the very large number of geth primes that abandon the collective to join Legion in the"Geth Server" Mission.
It doesn't change the act of bowing to them, but it's as close as we ever get to seeing the geth (or at least some of them) regret a choice they made. In fact, Legion is the only geth I ever saw in the entrity of all three games that seemed to feel/openly express even a shread of shame or remorse at what the geth did, in both the Morning War, and in siding with the Reapers. The avarage, pre-Legion geth, (the Geth V.I. is the example of them before Legion met Shepard) would show no regret or remorse to what they did, or what they needed to do for their own personal survival.

It doesn't change the fact they allowed the Reaper to come to Rannoch and propose a deal in the first place, prior to the war to take back Rannoch.

The Geth didn't turn them down, the Geth wanted to be slaves. They had a choice, and they chose to ally with the enemy of the galaxy. If humanity was at stake, I would rather die than live as a mindless slave.

QFT. And if they had been born instead of being assembled in a factory they would understand that without being told. Legion itself admits the moral failures of the Geth on several occasions when confronted with his deceptions.