4712 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

I see it as "is submission not preferrable to extinction?" type of question.  While we are led to believe the answer should be "no", the Geth say "yes".  They do "want" slavery, but only because they think the only other option is near extinction.  Whether that is the better choice though is an entirely different question.

[Phatose]

Reorte wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Given that the council species have outright outlawed all AIs, and simply creating the Geth was enough to get the Quarians kicked out of the Citadel, the Geth are pretty well reasoned in staying away from the council.

It's a little bit impossible to join a society where your very existence is considered a crime.

IIRC the timestamp on the record of AIs on the Citadel getting killed (in the Citadel DLC) was after the geth kicked the quarians off Rannoch, which rather complicates things.

You don't actually need that information.   The morning war itself is evidence of the council's policies, and Tali tells you in the first game that they Geth were not meant to be true AIs because AIs were illegal back then.

The problem is that the two pieces of information appear to contradict each other. The Citadel recording implies that the AIs were openly on the CItadel and openly negotiating; it felt like it was supposed to be the point at which AIs were declared illegal.

Not neccessairly contradictory.  We do know that despite AI's being illegal right now, there are a small number of them allowed to exist.  In ME2 it says that thereis a company licensed by the council for AI research - Synthetic Insights, according to the wiki.

[S.A.K]

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you? ANY race could crack under pressure like that.

Blind, lobotomized robots? No thanks.

[Khelish]

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

... and there is the problem. If the Geth left Rannoch during the Morning War, I would not have had a problem. Instead they sit there and gloat for 300 years, killing anyone and anything.

Quarians come along, outsmart the Geth in battle, the Geth go running to the Reapers like a bunch of pansies. Not my fault the Geth sat around doing nothing but stir the pot for hundreds of years...

Look at the bigger picture, will you?

[Phatose]

Jukaga wrote...

QFT. And if they had been born instead of being assembled in a factory they would understand that without being told. Legion itself admits the moral failures of the Geth on several occasions when confronted with his deceptions.

Uh...are you seriously suggesting that no organic would ever choose slavery over death?  Cause that's so ridiculously wrong it boggles the imagination.

[Ryzaki]

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical. How dare they want to stay where it's familiar. The nerve!

Seriously I can see where both sides are coming from but both have their moments of mega derp. I can forgive the Geth mega derp more easily. (Mostly because their derps didn't involve starting a war when they knew a Reaper invasion was immient, arming civilian ships then crying when they're shot down like someone's supposedly to not fire at the freaking cannons firing on them, and then firing on the ship the person trying to help you is on because "OMG we might kill the geth!!!!")

As for that "civilians didn't want this war" garbage yeah right. They allowed their military to arm the liveships. I highly doubt the Quarian military held a gun to the rest of the quarians heads and forced them to arm the liveships. Smells more like losers remorse to me. The second they realized OMG putting guns on civilians ships resulted in them blowing up! Seems the moment they wanted to backpeddle into not wanting the war. Too late then suckers.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 07:11 .

[Reorte]

Phatose wrote...


Not neccessairly contradictory.  We do know that despite AI's being illegal right now, there are a small number of them allowed to exist.  In ME2 it says that thereis a company licensed by the council for AI research - Synthetic Insights, according to the wiki.

Good point, might be that they've decided to get rid of some that were left from before AI research was declared illegal after the geth uprising.

[Kabooooom]

@ khelish - Except they didn't 'stir the pot' until the Heretics split. They were isolationists. The Rannoch occupation is annoying, yes, but they apparently repaired and maintained the environment for the Quarians eventual return. We are led to believe that they could not immediately return to Rannoch after the war even if the Geth let them, so your point is moot.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 18 mars 2013 - 07:11 .

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

[DeinonSlayer]

justafan wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

I see it as "is submission not preferrable to extinction?" type of question.  While we are led to believe the answer should be "no", the Geth say "yes".  They do "want" slavery, but only because they think the only other option is near extinction.  Whether that is the better choice though is an entirely different question.

This. The Geth were compelled to side with the Reapers, as the Quarians were compelled to attack them (Silver and I discussed this at length - in a way, the Reapers played both sides). It's a question of whether one finds the Geth accepting this offer forgivable.

[Sundance31us]

justafan wrote...

But if his mission was to offer aid to organics, he would have gone to an actual politician or government body.

That's not who I would go to if I wanted to offer aid...well, not if I wanted to aid to get to who needed it any time soon or at all.

[Jukaga]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

... and there is the problem. If the Geth left Rannoch during the Morning War, I would not have had a problem. Instead they sit there and gloat for 300 years, killing anyone and anything.

Quarians come along, outsmart the Geth in battle, the Geth go running to the Reapers like a bunch of pansies. Not my fault the Geth sat around doing nothing but stir the pot for hundreds of years...

Look at the bigger picture, will you?

Again, truth is here. If the Geth jsut wanted to exist and do their thing they could have uploaded every program to their ships and blasted off at FTL for the next galaxy over. They didn't need Rannoch or any other world, let alone their physical bodies for any other reason than to fight and kill organics. There are billions of stars off the relay network and spending a few decades/centuries in transit to one of them or outside the galaxy should mean nothing to them.

Instead they ally with the enemy of all life at least twice and do nothing but lie and deceive when you try to give them a chance.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

If I'm attacked in my home and have to leave because someone attacked me rather than defend myself that's a stupid law.

Something being a law doesn't make it right.

Good thing I didn't claim that eh? They shouldn't have had to leave. It was their home as much as the Quarians. Since they refused to get along peacefully the stronger kept it. Which sucks honestly and I blame the geth for not reaching out diplomatically as much as the Quarians. However the Quarians kept up hostilties instead of counting a loss as a loss and I do not feel any guilt for watching them blow up above Rannoch for continously antagonizing the Geth.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 07:16 .

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

If I'm attacked in my home and have to leave because someone attacked me rather than defend myself that's a stupid law.

Something being a law doesn't make it right.

Good thing I didn't claim that eh? They shouldn't have had to leave. It was their home as much as the Quarians.

You know what isn't logical? Killing off the Quarians and then killing off the Geth.

The Geth had no need for Rannoch. They lack the understanding of what a "home" even is, Legion even says that home doesn't matter, so why did they stay on Rannoch?

They don't need its resources, its environment, or anything. All the Geth need is some random asteroid, not Rannoch.

[Kabooooom]

Jukaga, they couldn't leave the galaxy. With insufficient stars to discharge, they would fry as surely as organics would.

But, your other point is a good one. 'Billions of stars off the network' is an understatement, by all indications the network covers less than 1% of the galaxy. That means there are nearly 200 billion stars off the network that would be easy pickings for the Geth.

khelish - again, this is explained in the game, the geth maintain Rannoch FOR THE QUARIANS

Modifié par Kabooooom, 18 mars 2013 - 07:17 .

[DaveT]

Tali is a better dancer. No other considerations matter.

[remydat]

Reorte wrote...

remydat wrote...


When did I say they attempted peace prior to commander Shepard?  I confess I have a lot of posts so perhaps I misspoke somewhere but I was never claiming they attempted peace prior to Shepard.  My point about peace was they were willing to accept peace when Shepard showed through his actions he could be trusted.  I don't think any organic proved they wanted peace before that.

If official council policy is that I should not exist then the Council should not be sending living people into my space in an armored spaceship.  Your policy can in and of itself be considered an act of war against any synthetic race.  You have not proven you can be trusted so if you want to talk to me then you should probably send a drone or communicate in some other way that cannot be construed as a threat.  There can be no discussion period until you acknwledge my right to exist.

The policy against synthetic life is oppression in and of itself.  Do you not understand that?

A bit of give and take on both sides is needed. Turning up armed when facing a bunch whose track record largely consists of killing people sounds like common sense. It might let you escape. And a single armed ship is hardly a threat to the geth so they've no just cause in shooting it down without hearing what it has to say first.

I can understand the geth isolating themselves, but if they truly wanted to not be regarded as a bunch of trigger-happy maniacs they should've at least told any approaching vessels to sod off before shooting at them.

Look the fact is these vessels were stupid.  You don't send ships with living people on them to talk to a group who you officially have rules banning their existence and who one of your member races tried to exterminate.  If you can't figure out a way to talk to them long range to gauge how ******** and fearful they are of organics then stay away until you can.

Yes, it would have probably been better if the Geth had warned them but it would have been better if the organics would stop being so stupid when it comes to synthetics.  You can't hate on them, say they shouldn't exist, try and exterminate them and then think they understand the concept of a diplomatic ship when you show up in presumably an armed vessel.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

If I'm attacked in my home and have to leave because someone attacked me rather than defend myself that's a stupid law.

Something being a law doesn't make it right.

Good thing I didn't claim that eh? They shouldn't have had to leave. It was their home as much as the Quarians.

You know what isn't logical? Killing off the Quarians and then killing off the Geth.

The Geth had no need for Rannoch. They lack the understanding of what a "home" even is, Legion even says that home doesn't matter, so why did they stay on Rannoch?

They don't need its resources, its environment, or anything. All the Geth need is some random asteroid, not Rannoch.

Good thing my Shepard doesn't magically know at the time of Rannoch that starbrat is gonna pop up out of nowhere the last 10 minutes of the game offering him 3 garbage endings. That said dead rannoch slide does make me lol. Silly warmongering Quarians. If only they had waited.

Legion says they don't have attachments and whatnot but his actions clearly contradict his words (the memorial, the N7 armor, they not leaving the planet, them leaving it hospitable [probably would've been very easy for the geth to ruin the planet for organic life while keeping it useful to them]).

Oh they don't need it never said they did. However it is familiar, it's defendable and honestly I do believe they have a amount of attachment to it. Otherwise there is really no logical reason for them to have not left.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

That would be true if this were a civil or domestic conflict.  It was war.  You do realise the above concept has no place in war.  At best you could argue it is required to not kill someone who surrendered but we have no evidence the Quarians surrendered except when they fled the planet at which point the Geth let them leave.

[DeinonSlayer]

Kabooooom wrote...

Jukaga, they couldn't leave the galaxy. With insufficient stars to discharge, they would fry as surely as organics would.

But, your other point is a good one. 'Billions of stars off the network' is an understatement, by all indications the network covers less than 1% of the galaxy. That means there are nearly 200 billion stars off the network that would be easy pickings for the Geth.

khelish - again, this is explained in the game, the geth maintain Rannoch FOR THE QUARIANS

They don't know why they did it. It takes Shepard explaining it for them to understand their own behavior. Before the Reaper code, they gave no indication that they ever intended to give the planet back - they ignored all attempts made to communicate, shot down anyone who came near them, and spent centuries working on walling off Rannoch's sun in a Dyson sphere. The Bubble configuration could theoretically absorb the total output of the star. Even partial dimming would have a disasterous long-term impact on the planet's plant life (which the Quarians have a symbiotic physiological dependency on).

[remydat]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the Geth should leave their home because the Quarians decided to kill them for being able to think. That's logical.

Yeah no.

If you are able to escape an attacker, you are required to leave by the law. (in most states anyway.)

It is silly to claim the Geth had no way off world, or system.

If I'm attacked in my home and have to leave because someone attacked me rather than defend myself that's a stupid law.

Something being a law doesn't make it right.

Good thing I didn't claim that eh? They shouldn't have had to leave. It was their home as much as the Quarians.

You know what isn't logical? Killing off the Quarians and then killing off the Geth.

The Geth had no need for Rannoch. They lack the understanding of what a "home" even is, Legion even says that home doesn't matter, so why did they stay on Rannoch?

They don't need its resources, its environment, or anything. All the Geth need is some random asteroid, not Rannoch.

Good thing my Shepard doesn't magically know at the time of Rannoch that starbrat is gonna pop up out of nowhere the last 10 minutes of the game offering him 3 garbage endings. That said dead rannoch slide does make me lol. Silly warmongering Quarians. If only they had waited.

Legion says they don't have attachments and whatnot but his actions clearly contradict his words (the memorial, the N7 armor, they not leaving the planet, them leaving it hospitable [probably would've been very easy for the geth to ruin the planet for organic life while keeping it useful to them]).

Oh they don't need it never said they did. However it is familiar, it's defendable and honestly I do believe they have a amount of attachment to it. Otherwise there is really no logical reason for them to have not left.

Not to mention, it is probably not a good idea to give the planet back to the a**holes who tried to exterminate you so that they can regroup and then come looking for you to finish the job.  Where do people get the idea that the Quarians and guys like Admiral Gherel would have just let the Geth live in peace?

[Phatose]

Kabooooom wrote...

Jukaga, they couldn't leave the galaxy. With insufficient stars to discharge, they would fry as surely as organics would.

But, your other point is a good one. 'Billions of stars off the network' is an understatement, by all indications the network covers less than 1% of the galaxy. That means there are nearly 200 billion stars off the network that would be easy pickings for the Geth.

khelish - again, this is explained in the game, the geth maintain Rannoch FOR THE QUARIANS

Did they have the hardware available to actually do that?   Geth platforms are interchangable, but they still need to have some platform to run on.  Being synthetic doesn't free them from conservation of energy either, so it's not like they can just blast off into deep space and lol about it.

They need platforms, they need energy to run those platforms.  Considering that they had only come into existence recently, and then immediately were tossed into a war where the other side was set on their complete annhilation, it's unlikely they had manufacturing capability to build those platforms.  They still needed what there was in the Rannoch system. 

Beyond that, the best they could do was start building a deep space station far away from Organics and move to it as soon as possible.  And that's exactly what they were doing.

[moater boat]

No way. The Geth have been too chummy with the Reapers in the past. Even when you don't have to choose between them and the quarians letting them live is a huge gamble. If you can only have one the smart thing to do is to pick the faction that hasn't made a habit out of worshipping your enemy like gods.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

That would be true if this were a civil or domestic conflict.  It was war.  You do realise the above concept has no place in war.  At best you could argue it is required to not kill someone who surrendered but we have no evidence the Quarians surrendered except when they fled the planet at which point the Geth let them leave.

Sir, you do realize that billions dead in the span of a year, along with the use of chemical weapons, is not war. It is genocide.

The Geth have no losses in the Morning War. Their units didn't "die".

[Khelish]

Kabooooom wrote...

khelish - again, this is explained in the game, the geth maintain Rannoch FOR THE QUARIANS

Maintain it for Quarians, then try to kill them.

Seems legit.