4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Jukaga]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

Given that the Geth were/are in bed with the Reapers, an attack on them is an attack on the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you? ANY race could crack under pressure like that.

Blind, lobotomized robots? No thanks.

Isn't that what happens thanks to Xen? And it made them desperate. Desperate enough to barter with the Reapers. I never said it was right, or forgivable. That part is up to you.  What I said was that I could understand the desire to live with odds like that against you.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 08:08 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

The civilian fleet that let them put guns on their liveships?

Yeah not buying it. Smells like loser's remorse to me.

Now you're b*tching about them slapping guns on everything they could on the eve of a Reaper invasion?

At least they acknowledged the threat. They would have been targeted if they were armed or not. I only wish others had done as they did. The humans and Turians ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

[Ryzaki]

Jukaga wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

Given that the Geth were/are in bed with the Reapers, an attack on them is an attack on the Reapers.

Them getting in bed with the reapers happens after...wait for it...wait for it...

Oh wait after the Quarians decimate their population in a unprovoked attack. Oh yeah. How silly of those geth to want to live and go running to the one group that offers support. How silly.

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

... and there is the problem. If the Geth left Rannoch during the Morning War, I would not have had a problem. Instead they sit there and gloat for 300 years, killing anyone and anything.

Quarians come along, outsmart the Geth in battle, the Geth go running to the Reapers like a bunch of pansies. Not my fault the Geth sat around doing nothing but stir the pot for hundreds of years...

Look at the bigger picture, will you?

The problem with that is, where else exactally are they going to go? The Veil is watched over. If geth shps leave the Veil, there would be shot on sight, as they are already deemed hostile because of shooting down all the diplomatic envoys that came to them.

I agree that the geth's sedentary action were a prime factor in this, but so was Council law and quarian brashness. I can't fault the geth for turning to the Reapers in desperation anymore than I can fault the quarians for trying to re-take Rannoch in desperation.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 07:59 .

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The civilian fleet that let them put guns on their liveships?

Yeah not buying it. Smells like loser's remorse to me.

Now you're b*tching about them slapping guns on everything they could on the eve of a Reaper invasion?

At least they acknowledged the threat. They would have been targeted if they were armed or not. I only wish others had done as they did. The humans and Turians ought to have been churning out dreadnoughts as fast as they could mine the metal.

When they use that to attack the Geth instead of the Reapers? Hell yeah. The Reapers automatically believe everyone is a threat (so in that scenario putting guns on your kids bus is fully understandable considering if they're captured well...worse will happen rather than them just blowing up) but they didn't arm those liveships for the Reaper war. They armed them for the Geth. Who weren't going after their civilians to harvest them and turn them into abominations. So yes that was stupid of them to do so then cry about it.

Alas if only if they had. Alas they're too busy airquoting and ****. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:01 .

[silverexile17s]

justafan wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Look at Udina. He didn't follow that sentiment.
It may not be right, but sometimes wanting to live overrides the desire to be free.
And I don't think the geth wanted to be slaves. NO race wants that.

Uh, the Geth did.

Hence they let the Reaper control them.

Uh, when they were partly lobotomized (megastrcuture attack), blinded,( Xen's weapon), and were being kicked while down (the Quarian Fleet).

Hence why they accepted the help.
See both sides, will you?

I see it as "is submission not preferrable to extinction?" type of question.  While we are led to believe the answer should be "no", the Geth say "yes".  They do "want" slavery, but only because they think the only other option is near extinction.  Whether that is the better choice though is an entirely different question.

Okay, I argee with you there.

[silverexile17s]

Jukaga wrote...

redcarpet26 wrote...

I favor the Geth or peace with the quarians if possible. There is one idea of Synthisis that is true, and it is that Organics will need synthetics as allies for their continued survival and advancement.

Explain your statement please. In real life and in fiction creating actual AI would be the most stupid, unneccesary, illogical, counter-survival act imaginable. How would organics in our real world or fictional ones depend on AIs for our 'advancement'?

Well, we humans strive to build them in China and Japan, no?
Like the Leviathans, I fear that we won't see A.I. as more then tools of convience to civilization and development till it's too late.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though. Honestly her going along with the war in the first place annoys the hell out of me. She feels like another case of loser's remorse. She'll bleet about them but as long as the dirty deeds get her homeplanet back she doesn't really think about it too much.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

"Get the hell off my ship."

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

It's funny how you're so willing to condemn them for the one Dreadnought incident (which, if you were willing to look past your own egoism, you'd see why it was necessary), yet you so readily forgive the hundreds and thousands of Geth who tried to kill you.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh wait after the Quarians decimate their population in a unprovoked attack. Oh yeah. How silly of those geth to want to live and go running to the one group that offers support. How silly.

Survival at any cost is not a motto to which I subscribe. Seeing a lot of Renegade reasoning to support the geth flocking to the Reapers.

Also, yes it is silly, and Legion himself implies it when he equates the decision to become Reaper slaves with lowered intelligence.

[Iamjdr]

That reaper was on rannoch long before the quarians started attacking. Or didn't you see the giant underground hideout he was in on rannoch. You honestly think the geth made that and some how snuck a reaper into it past the Quarian fleets while they were apparently losing intelligence?

[Xilizhra]

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

Well, given that the path with the least amount of Shepard's interference leads ultimately to the demise of the entire fleet, I'd say that there were probably other more viable choices. Had they stayed out of the war altogether (go to salarian territory, the Reapers never touch it for some reason), the geth wouldn't have lost their anti-Reaper processes and likely have joined the war of their own accord; once they'd done so, they may have left the world peacefully and allowed the quarians to come back in.

[Phatose]

You know, if the Geth were to link this thread and say "See? Here's what we mean. A significant portion of organics take the stance that organic life is always innately more valuable then synthetic life, and a portion even suggests that synthetic life has no value at all! Organic discussions show that they think we are completely disposable, and their actions further demonstrate that. What are we supposed to do?" I'd have to agree with them.

Guess Starkid was right after all. Huh.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though. Honestly her going along with the war in the first place annoys the hell out of me. She feels like another case of loser's remorse. She'll bleet about them but as long as the dirty deeds get her homeplanet back she doesn't really think about it too much.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

"Get the hell off my ship."

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

It's funny how you're so willing to condemn them for the one Dreadnought incident (which, if you were willing to look past your own egoism, you'd see why it was necessary), yet you so readily forgive the hundreds and thousands of Geth who tried to kill you.

Besides, I have yet to find one person that was all that ticked with Admral Hackett for blowing Sovergien to hell with you right next to it in the Citadel Tower (and he knew you were there. The relay netowrk wouldn't be unlocked if Shepard hadn't made it to the controls in to tower). And that is fundementally similar to what Gerrel did with the Geth Dreadnought.
@Ryzaki, You really intend to fault Gerrel just because he put the safety of his entire race over a single human? (Which isn't different then How Hackett but the safety of the Citadel over Shepard's life) No matter how improtant said human is, if you are lifelong military in a command position, devoted to the safety and survival of your people, and the fate of all of them hangs in the balance between them and one life, then guess which you'll be likely to choose?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 08:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...

You know, if the Geth were to link this thread and say "See? Here's what we mean. A significant portion of organics take the stance that organic life is always innately more valuable then synthetic life, and a portion even suggests that synthetic life has no value at all! Organic discussions show that they think we are completely disposable, and their actions further demonstrate that. What are we supposed to do?" I'd have to agree with them.

Guess Starkid was right after all. Huh.

Cute, but if the quarians had unanimously voted to join the Reapers in order to take back Rannoch, I'd destroy them with equal prejudice.

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though. Honestly her going along with the war in the first place annoys the hell out of me. She feels like another case of loser's remorse. She'll bleet about them but as long as the dirty deeds get her homeplanet back she doesn't really think about it too much.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

"Get the hell off my ship."

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

It's funny how you're so willing to condemn them for the one Dreadnought incident (which, if you were willing to look past your own egoism, you'd see why it was necessary), yet you so readily forgive the hundreds and thousands of Geth who tried to kill you.

Um...no. I expect more than her classic handwringing. It's not like she does this only in ME3. Same handwringing in ME2 but Shep and Tali have to sort it out. Its aggravating.

They had no other viable choice other than to start a war with the Geth over Rannoch with the Reapers invading? No offense but seriously? You do realize if the Quarians DID get Rannoch back with their laughable ground troops they'd lost that planet faster than they gained it?

Also it's not just the dreadnaught incident. And oi vey you wanna bring ego into this? As for the hundreds of thousands of Geth trying to kill Shep...um...no. I distinctly remember my Shep blowing them up. (Yep defintely blew up the heretics) so yeah nope buddy. Didn't forgive those either. Only ones my Shep did forgive was those being controlled by the Reapers.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:20 .

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh wait after the Quarians decimate their population in a unprovoked attack. Oh yeah. How silly of those geth to want to live and go running to the one group that offers support. How silly.

Survival at any cost is not a motto to which I subscribe. Seeing a lot of Renegade reasoning to support the geth flocking to the Reapers.

Also, yes it is silly, and Legion himself implies it when he equates the decision to become Reaper slaves with lowered intelligence.

Well I don't mind playing renegades so I don't mind.

True that. They were dumb and made a dumb decision. (and one I would've made in the same situation). They chose slavery over death. I would've done the same.

Ryzaki, You really intend to fault Gerrel just because he put the safety of his entire race over
a single human? (Which isn't different then How Hackett but the safety
of the Citadel over Shepard's life) No matter how improtant said human
is, if you are lifelong military in a command position, devoted to the
safety and survival of your people, and the fate of all of them hangs in the balance between them and one life, then guess which you'll be likely to choose?

No. I fault Gerrel for placing the war with the Geth over the war with the Reapers and placing getting a hunk of rock over the lives of his civilians. A hunk of rock that would've soon been lost to the Reapers with his people being harvested for extra credit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:18 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

Well, given that the path with the least amount of Shepard's interference leads ultimately to the demise of the entire fleet, I'd say that there were probably other more viable choices. Had they stayed out of the war altogether (go to salarian territory, the Reapers never touch it for some reason), the geth wouldn't have lost their anti-Reaper processes and likely have joined the war of their own accord; once they'd done so, they may have left the world peacefully and allowed the quarians to come back in.

Again, encouraging the upload and witholding that information from the fleet, versus saying "no" to the Geth representative and promptly being attacked by him/it. Shepard doesn't really do much in either scenario. "Path of least nterference" means nothing when Shepard is fully aware of the consequences of the choice.

So the Quarians were supposed to magically know the Salarians would be ignored, and the Salarians (levo, not dextro) would take them in? And then the Geth would spontaneously break three centuries of silent isolationism to give their world back with the dyson sphere next door? Sorry, this is just silly from beginning to end.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Eh it just seems strange to betray your allies to gain allies that were just enemies.

Probably because they blew up the geth dreadnaught while I was still on it. I mean unnecessary.

Seriously though the geth were only enemies because the Quarians forced them to be. If they had gone to the Reapers before becoming idiots and losing a good amount of their race then sure I'd side with the Quarians. That's not what happened though.

So, egoism then? Your beef with one admiral is sufficient justification for genocide? Raan wanted to try Gerrel for treason.

For the record, Gerrel made the right call. Retreat was never a viable option - it takes days for the Migrant Fleet to pass through a Mass Relay (time they don't have), and even if they did, the Geth would simply have remained under Reaper control. After disconnecting Legion, every Geth on that ship was still hostile. They'd be working on repairs, and if they succeeded, the dreadnought would have gone right back to tearing apart your only allies in the system - and this time, nobody would be able to stop it.

"You did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."

She rings her hands and doesn't actually do anything though. Honestly her going along with the war in the first place annoys the hell out of me. She feels like another case of loser's remorse. She'll bleet about them but as long as the dirty deeds get her homeplanet back she doesn't really think about it too much.

Oh yes he made the right call. AFTER starting a war in the first place despite having the knowledge that the Reapers were coming. If the Geth hadn't felt threatend (and had a severe drop of intelligence in the first place) the Reapers wouldn't have gained a valuable tool.

So yeah he did the right thing after doing the wrong thing in the first place. *shrug* He gets a gold star for trying?

"Get the hell off my ship."

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

It's funny how you're so willing to condemn them for the one Dreadnought incident (which, if you were willing to look past your own egoism, you'd see why it was necessary), yet you so readily forgive the hundreds and thousands of Geth who tried to kill you.

Um...no. I expect more than her classic handwringing. It's not like she does this only in ME3. Same handwringing in ME2 but Shep and Tali have to sort it out. Its aggravating.

They had no other viable choice other than to start a war with the Geth over Rannoch with the Reapers invading? No offense but seriously? You do realize if the Quarians DID get Rannoch back with their laughable ground troops they'd lost that planet faster than they gained it?

Also it's not just the dreadnaught incident. And oi vey you wanna bring ego into this? As for the hundreds of thousands of Geth trying to kill Shep...um...no. I distinctly remember my Shep blowing them up. (Yep defintely blew up the heretics) so yeah nope buddy. Didn't forgive those either. Only ones my shep did forgive was those being controlled by the Reapers.

But by forsaking their own development in utlizoing the Reaper upgrades to further their own evolution, they have done exactally what the Heretics wanted to do: advance themselves throuth the utlization of Reaper tech. That makes them ALL Heretics by your own definition, in that they did exactally what the Heretics always desired: "perfection" through the power of the Reaper's technology, sacrificing the desire to evolve their own unique way in favor of the shortcut.
So the true geth aren in the end, no different, so by your own logic, they deserve to die too.

And the quarians are symbioticly dependant on Rannoch's ecology, which they have been seperated from for 300 years, and it hasn't been kind to them. And they cannot fight the Reapers in their current state, as they need massive ammounts of resources to manage their entire population while it is based on the Migrant Fleet - more resources then anyone could spare in galactic war. And as is, the fleet can't be seperated, as they are reliant on each-other, with the military ships dependant on civilian ships for raw materials, re-fueling, and supplies, and the civilians are dependant on the military ships for defense.
Also, there is nowhere safe to offload them as, like @DenyonSlayer siad, all known dextro worlds are turian-owned, and they are either under attack, or have more refugees then they know what to do with. The chance that there is a colony that can activlly take 15-16 million high-maintinace civilians that have strict health and dietary needs is near-zero. And having an atmoshpere that isn't lethal to them, and food that they can eat without needing to sterlize it into pase, would help too. To be any help in the war, they need to become self-sufficant. There is only one world in the entire galaxy that this is possible on: Rannoch.
Which, conviently, is held by a race that happens to be on the Council's "At War" list (they never recinded the decleration of war against the geth), so they have the chance to get their world back, by going through what were widely assumed to be Reaper allies? Impossible to pass up.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 08:30 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

Well, given that the path with the least amount of Shepard's interference leads ultimately to the demise of the entire fleet, I'd say that there were probably other more viable choices. Had they stayed out of the war altogether (go to salarian territory, the Reapers never touch it for some reason), the geth wouldn't have lost their anti-Reaper processes and likely have joined the war of their own accord; once they'd done so, they may have left the world peacefully and allowed the quarians to come back in.

. Hahahahahahahahahaha.  That is rich.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

But by forsaking their own development by utlizoing the Reaper upgrades to further their own evolution, they have done exactally what the Heretics wanted to do: advance themselves throuth the utlization of Reaper tech. That makes them ALL Heretics by definition, in that they did exactally what the Heretics always desired: "perfection" through the power of the Reaper's technology.

Sadly their development had been severely setback due to the Quarians.

And no I don't see them as heretics for the simple reason that they're not tryign to exterminate all organic life to please the old machines.

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You expect her to put Gerrel on trial right in the middle of that mess? As I explained in the post you brushed off, they went to war precisely because the Reapers were invading. The Geth severed communications with them. They had no other viable choice.

Well, given that the path with the least amount of Shepard's interference leads ultimately to the demise of the entire fleet, I'd say that there were probably other more viable choices. Had they stayed out of the war altogether (go to salarian territory, the Reapers never touch it for some reason), the geth wouldn't have lost their anti-Reaper processes and likely have joined the war of their own accord; once they'd done so, they may have left the world peacefully and allowed the quarians to come back in.

Again, encouraging the upload and witholding that information from the fleet, versus saying "no" to the Geth representative and promptly being attacked by him/it. Shepard doesn't really do much in either scenario. "Path of least nterference" means nothing when Shepard is fully aware of the consequences of the choice.

So the Quarians were supposed to magically know the Salarians would be ignored, and the Salarians (levo, not dextro) would take them in? And then the Geth would spontaneously break three centuries of silent isolationism to give their world back with the dyson sphere next door? Sorry, this is just silly from beginning to end.

Well, that's why both non-peace options are objectively terrible. I'm just saying.

Also, the quarians don't need to land, they haven't done so for centuries. And if they're paying attention to the movement of the Reapers, they should be able to hide in those areas of the galaxy the Reapers haven't hit yet. As for the geth, they wouldn't have to know about the geth joining the war until the geth actually did; the quarians could start speaking to them then.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...WRONG. Humans and members of humanity  have:
(a) Killed the Reaper vanguard, Sovergien.
( Destroyed the Human Proto-Reaper.
© Devestated both of their proxy armies, the geth Heretics and Collectors.
(d) Destroyed at least several Reaper objects, such as Object Rho (destroyed by Shepard), and the Arca Monolith (desteroyed by Jack Harper, AKA, The Illusive Man).
Humans did more damage to the Reaper's plans then anyone else in the cycle did, even BEFORE they were chosen to be the next harvested race. They disrupted their cycle more then any other race mamaged to do, and personally antagonized the Reapers with their resistance, and with the actions of Shepard, and of Cerberus trying to find a way to control them. So NO, I DON'T see the difference.
And the term "it takes two to tango" is quite prevelant to this. You can't just chalk this all up to organic irrationalaty, when synthetic overrationalaty has caused it just as much. Like how the geth completely isolate themselves because of how one race reacted to them 300 years ago, and let hate fester to the point that no one would listen to them anyway. If they hadn't shot down unarmed diplomat ships without so much as even a hail (which is explisitly stated as happening in Mass Effect: Revelation, a book that details the back-stories of David Anderson, Kahlee Sanders, and Saren Arterius, and goes into detail about the Alliance and batarians creating A.I tech, and the mission that led to Anderson being kicked from Spectre candidacy).
The bottom line here is that it's just as much the fault of synthetics as organics in causing conflict.

And the Council laws prohibit creation of A.I.s. If the Council found out that the quarians V.I. slave race had suddenly grown awareness, they would have enacted harsh sanctions against the quarians, if not outright censorship. The Council placed censorship on the Alliance for the Eliza A.I. at Gagarian Station, and that was just ONE A.I. An entire race of them being created, even if by accedent, would certinly lead to the quarians getting kicked from the Citadel Conventions and becoming an exiled nation (which happens anyway after the Morning War, so in the end they were screwed no matter what they did). At first they tryed reprogramming, which failed. Then they tried deactivation, which failed because the geth adapted self-optimization to resist shut-down commands unless by their own progative. They tried forcing the shut-down when the remote commands failed, leading them to delcare matrial law on their worlds, as protest formed saying that the geth shouldn't be shut down for simple questioning, as no one knew that the geth were sentiant. The early protesters believed the geth were simply parroting or phantomiming life, and not truly alive, and therefore no threat. As that changed, the number of quarians eventually shunk, as more and more realized that the geth were becoming alive, and few quarians thought that was a good idea given Council law.
With protest from several groups, the threat of the geth becoming sentiant and possibly rebelling, and above it all, the Council and imminate censorship looming above them, the now-desperate quarian government and military attacked the geth, hoping to wipe them out, then likely explain away the situation to the Council. They probably would have said it was a network malafunction. And the belief at the time was that if they destroyed the geth before they gained true sentiance, then it wouldn't be killing people, but destroying "faulty hardware."
However, the geth WERE already alive, and, under the threat of obliteration by the now-panicked quarian government, the geth panicked themselves and overzelously retaliated, sending the quarians reeling. Placing personal survival as priority one, the geth stopped discrimination between freind and foe, only caring about their fellow geth. This slaughter, and the geth no longer caring about civilian casulaties in their over-agressive  self-defence, killed any remaining sympathy that the quarians had for the geth, and both sides committed themselves fully to wiping the other out.

And the geth launched an attack on Rannoch WELL AFTER the bulk of the war ended. Rannoch fell at the end of the year-long war, and many worlds had long since fallen, like Haestrom, which is described as "one of the first worlds to fall." The geth had NO REASON to push into the Tikkun System and take Rannoch. They had already devestated the quarian economy, and shattered the spine of the quarian military. it was for no other reason then over-zelous self-preservation.
And more then once, the geth have displayed that they will always prioritize their own survival over all else, even when it shafts everyone else in the process. This is dysplayed by their alliance with the Reapers, and with their genocide of the quarians if you fail to create peace and side with them.

And actually, that perceved threat ALREADY happened. Several times.
In the Leviathan Age, several races were wiped out by their synthetic creations rebelling. The Leviathans said they were destroyed by their creations, and that "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." They created the Catalyst, which, according to it in the Ending, tried several times to find a way to stop the conflict, which all ended in failure, and in the synthetics destroying their masters in the long run, killing several more races. This gave birth to the Reapers, which was the only thing that didn't result in the synthetics wiping out their masters.

So NO, yoru position isn't consistant, as you deny any and all belief that synthetics are even partly at fault for what happened. If the geth were so willing to help other organics, why did they let the Heretics run rampant through the Attican Traverse, and tear the Citadel a new one, when they spicifically knew what the Heretics planed?  Why did they do nothing while the Collectors were abducting people? Why did they stay isolated while Palaven and Earth burned under the Reapers? (the quarians don't launch the war till at least right before Priority: Tuchanka.)
And the quarians came back to destroy them regardless of that land, so keeping it solved nothing in either the long or short term.
And again, as I said at the very top of this page, that logic of yours would mean that humans could not hold a grudge against the Reapers for taking Earth.

(a) -(d) Did you miss the begining of the game when the Heretics and Sovereign had already attacked?  Sovereign attacked organics first.  He is at fault.  That is different than the Geth responding to an attempt at genocide by rebelling.

The Geth are not just as much at fault. By your own admission there are laws against the creation of AI.  The Quarians launced a campaign of gencodide against them.  Unless you can prove to me that the Geth had done something to provoke these laws that existed before their creation or to provoke the attempted genocide then they are not the same. 
And oganics in this cycle have no knowledge of what happened during the Leviathan Age.  You can't claim the threat the geth posed was real based on information that the Quarians and organics never possessed when they decided to exterminate a race.  Further, the Protheans subjugated many groups as did the Rachni, the Krogan, etc.  Unless all organics are going to be judged based on what other organics have done holding the Geth accoutable for the actions of previous synthetic races is prejudice.  

From where I sit the problem is organic prejudice.  The Leviathan think themselves the superior race and want the lesser organic races to serve them.  The lesser organic races think they are superior to machines and want machines to serve them.  The machines seem fine with serving but when they gain sentience, the lesser organics try to wipe them out because the slaves are getting too uppity and then get their a** handed to them.  The Leviathan not wanting to lose their slaves instead of intervening directly in the conflict decided to create machines because the Levithan are too lazy to solve the problem themselves.  Those machines correctly realise the problem is organics prejudice and so decided the only way to save organics is by wiping out the advanced organic racers.  They start with the most advanced of all (Leviathans) who again probably could have resolved the conflict without creating the machines but their own hubris, laziness, and desire to have slave organic races worship them led to their downfall.

So sorry bro the problem is the organics.  It starts with the Leviathan whose only interest in intervening was so that their slaves/thralls could continue to pay them tribute.  Sure let's blame machines for organic greed and prejudice.

And I already explained why the Geth did not stop the Heretics.  They would have done so at great cost of Geth life and with Sovereign involved would have either been wiped out or decimated enough that the genocidal Quarians would have taken the opportunity to kill them.  Shepard is human and only barely was able to get these organic races to unite and you think the Geth should have risked their lives for organics that have lives that seek to prevent them from ever existing and tried to committ genocide against them.  Get real.

(a) - (d). That's different then how the Native Americans attacked the colonists first? And they retaliated? And Sovergien, as a Reaper, was already the epitimy of the enemy of all the galaxy. That attack on Eden Prime was SAREN'S choice, NOT Sovergien's. And out of all the races that piled against them, which brought it down? HUAMNS. So again, WRONG. That is NO different. Humans were the major threat. Eden Prime's attack was a decleration or war on everyone.

And again, WRONG. They attacked the geth so brashly because they didn't know that the geth were alive, and they hoped to destroy them before they could become so. It's not killing if they aren't alive yet. That's what the quarian's believed. It can't BE genocide if they aren't sentiant to begin with. Hence the mad dash to kill them before that happened. Look at Xen. Her beliefs that the geth are simple malafunctions is what the entire Pre-Morning War quarian government believed of the geth. The fact that they didn't see them as living beings at the time was why they were so willing to wipe them out, because they didn't see it as genocide of they aren't alive.
What they DIDN'T know was that the geth WERE alive already, and after the quarians found out, it was too late to withdraw. They were committed, and if they faltred, the Council would have their heads for the mess they created.
So in closing, WRONG. The quarians partisipated in it because they didn't believe the geth were alive, and that therefore the term "genocide" didn't apply.
And the very act of being an unshakled, possibly uncontrollible A.I, breaks those Council laws on A.I creation, which existed long before the geth did.
So, YES, they are the same. The geth broke those laws by their unpredicted evolution into A.I.s.

And AGAIN, WRONG. The Leviathan's THEMSELVES tell you this straight-up, as does the Catalyst. They spicifically tell you that "the races built machines that then destroyed them," and "many times we tried to fix the problem, but all the attempts failed." The Reaper on Rannoch, as it's dying, states that the quarian/geth war is proof of it's validation.

And the Rachni were driven to near-extinction, and the krogan were given the genophage. I think they PAYED their price. They ARE held accountible for their sins, and you DO chose weather or not judge them, or to forgive them, by holding their fates in your hands, literally.  So with those choices in mind, and avaliable to make, NO, it ISN'T prejudice at ALL, as you do the exact same thing to organics as well. Where are you pulling this BS from?
And the Protheans were reformated into the Collectors, then reclaimed their culture when Leviathan severed the Connection and changed them into the "Awakened Collectors," so they payed their price as well.

And machines were built to be servents, like most technology is. Do you expect your car to suddenly talk back to you about unfair treatment when you go over train tracks to much? NO, you don't. Machines today are all considered tools, and are built to be such. The same is true with the Creation of A.I.s. - they are always believed and treated as future tools to be used in ease of development. As tools, they aren't alive, or thinking sapiant beings, so it's NOT prejudice.
When they CAN think for themselves, and have honest opinions, preferences, and beliefs, THEN you can call it prejudice. But when they are still simple tools, NO. Organic slaves would always rebel agains slave conditions. However, machines that were created to be automated laborers, with all the life and will of wind-up sondlers, aren't expected to suddenly become alive.
And it was inferred that the Leviathans were unable to solve the problem themselves, hence the Catalyst.
And if it was "organic prejudice," then why do they wipe out the synthetics each cycle? If they thought the organics were the problem, WHY are none of the synthetics from past cycles still around? Well? Do they even stop to harvest synthetics?
Face it, the Reapers are partial to no one. Synthetics included. So that statement of yours is bascially an asspull.

So "sorry bro,"  but the problem is BOTH. It starts with the Other races that the Leviathan's watched over, and the machine that decided forced Transhumanism and conversion was the better alternitive to letting life progress on it's own.

And it's alright when organic life is high in cost, but only when synthetic life is in question does it become a problem?
THAT is prejudice if I ever saw it.
And because everything in the Perceus Veil is completely concealed by the opaque nebula that obscures the entire Veil, no one would have ever known about the geth fighting each other. So the quarians would have had no knowledge about it, and would NOT have attacked. So that's an asspull.
And they let the Heretics give the galaxy a worse opinion of them. And to qoute Shepard, "Nothing ever gets solved if you just sit behind the Perceus Veil and let them hate you." The geth did exactally that. They let the hate fester against them for 300 years without so much as lifting a finger to try and alter that. Hell, even at least giving a warning to ships entering geth space would have been indication that they didn't kill organics for the hell of it. But when you shoot everyone without so much as a warning, that tends to give the exact idea that you shoot organics for the hell of it. The galaxy's negitive opinion is near-completely the fault of the geth's lack of action to change it, and you try to blame it on organics? When the overzelous retaliation against the quarians, and the shooting of unarmed diplomatic ships, and the lack of concern to change it, was all indication that the geth didn't give a damn about organics?
"Get Real."

Did you miss the part where Saren was indoctrinated.  He was working to advance Sovereign mission dude.  In any event, the humans did not attack Sovereign or Saren so their attack on humans was unprovoked.  So sorry it is not the same.

And I could give two sh*ts about the Council's laws.  The law itself is part of the problem.  The Geth broke no laws. They did not create themselves.  The Quarians broke a law and then decided the solution was to exterminate living machines and any quarians who disagreed with them.  They murdered their own people who believed the Geth were alive instead of talking to them.

Leviathan tells us the races built machines that destroyed them.  The amusing thing is your analogy of a car or tool talking back to you inherently proves that the problem is organics.  Because it is a machine, organics refuse to accept it could be anything more than the tool they created it to be.  So they seek to destroy it and in the end are destroyed themselves.  The further amusing part is that Leviathan sees this but because it is prejudiced against the lesser organic beings thinks it is immune from making the same mistake and then creates a machine that is even worse than the machines the lesser organics created.  The story is a classic example of organic prejudice and hubris leading to their downfall.  The machines are not the problem.  Their stupid creators are.

So yeah if my car talks back to me, my first inclination will be to listen not kill it.  The obvious theme of the story is organics ie humans fear what is different from them and in doing so sow the seeds to their own destruction.  The only reason people seem to ignore this fact is because machines have replaced slaves or any other race that at one time was considered by the majority to be sub-human and so they can't see beyond the sci fi nature of the story.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...
So the true geth aren in the end, no different, so by your own logic, they deserve to die too.

*facepalms* 

My logic had nothing to do with them using Reaper tech. My logic had to do with wiping them out for trying to kill all organics. I could care less what technology they used. Them slaughtering people and trying to bring the Reapers so they could harvest this cycle was my problem.

Did you all just forget that point in ME1 or something? Heretics weren't bad because they wanted Reaper tech. Heretics were bad because they were trying to start the freaking harvest! (And those bastards probably wanted synthesis! *probably did seeing as they followed Saren. )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:32 .

[Iamjdr]

@silverexile
That's why all the Geth in me3 are heretics. Legion specifically describes the difference between the "true Geth" and the heretics. The Geth in me3 all fall under the Heretic category, and wiether it's for the survival of there species or not, the consensus has chosen the heretics way even if the original heretics have been destroyed already.