4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the geth kill all quarians if you stand back and let them take the Reaper code.

Isn't THAT "magical" too?

Face it. If not for Shepard being there, then if it came right down to it, Legion would have snapped Tali's neck and uploaded the code itself to save the geth.

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Hell peace is gained by telling the Quarians to stand down. You don't tell the Geth to stop firing. You tell the Quarians to knock it off. (or threaten to stand and watch as they're blown to bits which is the only way I take peace.)

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:45 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

That is your interpretation.  Was the main character organic?  If so, how is what the author said not invariably the result of the accounts the main character heard from the history as told by organics?

Because the author is the creator of the true history. It's very convenient for you to handwave any information presented to us as "organic bias" but I can play that game, too.

Legion lied about the heretics. There never were any heretics. What happened was that the geth got their ass whupped by the Alliance in ME1 and became scared that the Council would approve a joint-effort to go into the Perseus Veil and wipe them out. So they fabricated the story about the heretics and brought Shepard to a space station full of geth so he could destroy them. There was no virus to rewrite the heretics.

Notice you can't prove anything I say wrong because Legion is the only person who can confirm or deny the existence of heretics. We take everything he says on faith, and we see in ME3 he's willing to lie for the survival of his species.

Of course, it's clear that we're supposed to take the heretic plot as truth because that's how stories work.

Yes the author is the creator of the true history not you.  I didn't read the passage to judge for myself what the author's intent was ie was he explaining true history to merely reflecting what the protagonist (ie an organic) thinks the true history to be.  Given you are obviously on the other side of the debate, why do you think I would accept your statement as fact when it could just be your interpretation of the author's intent. 

Have organics lied?  By your logic we have no proof that the Quarians were not genocidal maniacs and the fact a guy like Admiral Ghereal was put in charge of the Heavy Fleet suggests the Quarians trust fanatics more than they do sensible people.  That dude was willing to kill you after you bailed his a** out. The Salarians uplifted a people they knew were not ready for it to serve as cannon fodder against the Rachni and then when they rebelled they created the genophage to stop them.  The Turians planted a bomb under Tuchanka for the same reason.  The Asari hid the existence of a beacon so they could develop into the pre-eminent race in the galaxy.  So my point is why do organics get a pass for their lies and misdeeds?

You didnt answer the question.
Hasn't Legion lied to you, several times during ME3?  Doesn't that make it suspect?
This is an exact case of prejudice, of YOU with the geth. You take everything Legion says by word of mouth as true, but chastize anyone that does the same of Organics? Both EDI and Legion prove that synthetics are just as capable and willing to lie as any organic.
And again, WRONG. The missions with the Rachni, and the end of the genophage arc, are literally giving you the same choice with organics. So that's an asspull.

Let me tell you why I trust Legion.  Every single race in ME3 has their own selfish interests that they try and manipulate me to get.  Victus lied by ommission not telling me the Turians planted that bomb on Tuchanka.  The Salarian wanted me to lie about curing the genophage.  Admiral Gherel is just a grade A douchebag that risks civilians in his fanatical war against the Geth.  The Asari hid their beacon and used it to advance past all other races basically lying to them for centuries regarding the source of their accomplishments. 

Legion lied to protect his people just like everyone else did.  At the end of the day Legion fought his own people and as he said in the servers destroyed essentially a city of his people.  Show me where the others did the same? Tali is my love interest in most of my playthroughs but guess what even she accepted what she knew in her heart was wrong and didn't stand up against Gherel.  Legion stood up. 

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

*cough* Cerberus *cough*.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

. Why on Eartth would they stop?  They only know about the upload if Shepard tells them.  If they hear about it they stop, of they don't they keep fighting.

[Steelcan]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

*cough* Cerberus *cough*.

. It's an issue because the geth are software, they could be corrupted by Reaper software.

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because they didn't scrub it. (And via my edit. It's all about HOW it's used.)

Plus without IFF Shep wouldn't have been able to do many things in ME3 (like being undetected in Reaper controleld territories) or even get TO the collector base.

. "Undetected?"  You scan twice and six Reapers are on your ass.

Only if you're scanning in bad places Not EDI's fault you're ruining her disguist by yelling "HELLOOOO" all over the place.

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They have to land if they plan to be of any use at all to the wider war effort. A ship whose cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians isn't going to be hauling troops, refugees, and war supplies any time soon. They don't have any space, and they need to stay within shuttle range of a Liveship every day just to keep everyone fed.

Having them stay out of the war for the time being is a sacrifice worth making for the sake of not attacking an ally.

Also, when do the Geth ever give any indication that they'll join the fight alongside organics? Without the code upgrades, they're centered around their dyson sphere. After Legion returned to Geth space, the only people they were talking to pre-war was the Quarians, and the Geth severed communications with them before the Quarians attacked.

Legion mentions it in ME2. I'd likely need to make contact with the geth myself, of course, but I'm reasonably sure I could bring them in.

So, shuffle seventeen million people off into the corner with their ships idle in the hopes that the Reapers won't find them and kill them during the time it takes for you to petition the Geth and wait for an upper-left blue to pop up which will make them break three centuries of isolationism and leave their dyson sphere behind (effectively weakening the intelligence of ships which do so) in order to assist the organics they've been so suspicious of that they killed any spotted entering their territory on sight and didn't bother to even warn us when the heretics were attacking.

I should reiterate that you're not the Reaper king yet in this part of the timeline.

If it's that or start that moronic war, yes, that would be my preference. Although one could argue that some good came of it with the securing of the Reaper code that enhanced the geth.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Legion lied to protect his people just like everyone else did.  At the end of the day Legion fought his own people and as he said in the servers destroyed essentially a city of his people.  Show me where the others did the same? Tali is my love interest in most of my playthroughs but guess what even she accepted what she knew in her heart was wrong and didn't stand up against Gherel.  Legion stood up. 

Legion destroyed a city of his people for his own interests. There wasn't anything especially noble about it.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

*cough* Cerberus *cough*.

Hey I draw the line at Cerberus because they clearly have issues.

That and they're hilarious incompetent.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But by forsaking their own development by utlizoing the Reaper upgrades to further their own evolution, they have done exactally what the Heretics wanted to do: advance themselves throuth the utlization of Reaper tech. That makes them ALL Heretics by definition, in that they did exactally what the Heretics always desired: "perfection" through the power of the Reaper's technology.

Sadly their development had been severely setback due to the Quarians.

And no I don't see them as heretics for the simple reason that they're not tryign to exterminate all organic life to please the old machines.

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

And that was in part because they were building a megastructure around Rannoch's star, which would have siphoned away so much solar energy that it would have killed Rannoch's ecology, which the quarians need.

And Legion tries to kill Shepard if the Commander disagrees with the upload. Organic life will always take a backseat to their personal survival.

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

. Why on Eartth would they stop?  They only know about the upload if Shepard tells them.  If they hear about it they stop, of they don't they keep fighting.

Because the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for. Especially not after Tali told them to stop and Gerrel presses the attack.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 08:51 .

[CronoDragoon]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Using your enemies resources isn't a bad thing. Shepard uses Reaper resources to his benefit all the time. Why is it suddenly a problem when the Geth do it?

*cough* Cerberus *cough*.

The issue there isn't using your enemy's resources but crossing moral lines to do it. The question then becomes whether or not Legion crossed a geth moral line by upgrading the geth into individuals. It's a more interesting question than it first appears.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...


And that was in part because they were building a megastructure around Rannoch's star, which would have siphoned away so much solar energy that it would have killed Rannoch's ecology, which the quarians need.

And Legion tries to kill Shepard if the Commander disagrees with the upload. Organic life will always take a backseat to their personal survival.

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it's that or start that moronic war, yes, that would be my preference. Although one could argue that some good came of it with the securing of the Reaper code that enhanced the geth.

. That you have zero reason to trust.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for.

. They've stopped firing because they just got reprogrammed, again.

So you have no pity for the civilians who will be killed despite not participating in the war?  Did you laugh at Dorn'Hazt?  Silly mechanic, idiot shouldn't have crashed.

[Iamjdr]

I like have everyone is saying the quarians are dumb for going to war with the Geth when reapers are invading when the Geth and a known Reaper ALLY! If reapers are comin wouldn't the best time to strike there allies be before the reapers come swoop up the Geth and escort them out of the Perseus veil guns blazing on the rest of the galaxy? The quarians where going for a 2 birds 1 stone scenario and it was going fine till that reaper started broadcasting it's signal to the Geth. And as soon as the quarians take out the reaper you see they are able to handle the Geth just fine.

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for.

. They've stopped firing because they just got reprogrammed, again.

So you have no pity for the civilians who will be killed despite not participating in the war?  Did you laugh at Dorn'Hazt?  Silly mechanic, idiot shouldn't have crashed.

Yep and they don't start up again til the quarians keep firing. Notice in peace once the Quarians stop firing? They Geth don't. ZOMG.

They participated in the war the second they allowed their ships to be weapons. As for Dorn no I felt bad for him. Especially when I realized his poor son lost both parents within a year to the Quarians being idiots with the Geth. Just a stupid senseless war and waste of life over a hunk of rock that would've been quickly lost to the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the geth kill all quarians if you stand back and let them take the Reaper code.

Isn't THAT "magical" too?

Face it. If not for Shepard being there, then if it came right down to it, Legion would have snapped Tali's neck and uploaded the code itself to save the geth.

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Hell peace is gained by telling the Quarians to stand down. You don't tell the Geth to stop firing. You tell the Quarians to knock it off. (or threaten to stand and watch as they're blown to bits which is the only way I take peace.)

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

... we forget that up intil five minutes ago, the geth were legaly branded by the Council as enemies? And that there has been a general "kill on sight" order for them since Eden Prime over the Heretics? Which they did nothing to fix?

Or that the quarians have been victims in how they have lived hand-to-mouth, day-to-day in a decrepit fleet for 300 years? To the point where their immune system is so comprimised from not being on Rannoch that they can no longer survive without them?

And what if the positions were reversed? What if the geth had attacked first? In ME2, during the fight between Tali and Legion in the A.I. core, Shepard and Tali make a point that if the geth knew about the "research" Rael'Zorah was doing on live geth subjects, the geth would launch a full out attack in retaliation. Whether or the geth would have attacked because of the ethics of tesing on live geth, or because the quarians were developing weponized viruses from it, is unknown. But either way, it's made clear that the geth would have assaulted the Mirgant Fleet if they kenw what Rael (and later Xen) were doing.

And YES it's similar, but that should be the POINT - the geth are NOT justified any more then the quarians.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them?

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims?

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

. Why on Eartth would they stop? They only know about the upload if Shepard tells them. If they hear about it they stop, of they don't they keep fighting.

Because the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for.

So, all those millions sitting in their cubes in the cargo hold who took no part in this, never wanted any part in this...

In the outcome where they die, they're never told the upload is taking place. Never told the Geth are willing to spare them - if you have the VI with you, a representative of what the Quarians were historically up against, it makes it abundantly clear that it won't spare them, and unless informed otherwise, they have every reason to believe that's what they're still up against. They act on the information they have. If you choose to deny that information to them, it's on you.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep and they don't start up again til the quarians keep firing. Notice in peace once the Quarians stop firing? They Geth don't. ZOMG.

They participated in the war the second they allowed their ships to be weapons. As for Dorn no I felt bad for him. Especially when I realized his poor son lost both parents within a year to the Quarians being idiots with the Geth. Just a stupid senseless war and waste of life over a hunk of rock that would've been quickly lost to the Reapers.

. God I hate it when people get drafted.  In case you didnt know, the quarian civilians couldn't have stopped it.  They are still under military jurisdiction.  The Admiralty can make that kind of decision and force the rest to go with it.

Do you really think the average quarian has any sort of participation in the war?  They are dragged along for the ride.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


And that was in part because they were building a megastructure around Rannoch's star, which would have siphoned away so much solar energy that it would have killed Rannoch's ecology, which the quarians need.

And Legion tries to kill Shepard if the Commander disagrees with the upload. Organic life will always take a backseat to their personal survival.

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

The Geth Debris Field. And by Legion. They wrere building a Dyson Bubble, which draws the solar output of a star and uses it to fuel itself. By taking such massive amounts of solar energy, a Dyson Bubble or Dyson Sphere is made at the cost of any habitable worlds near it, as taking the total solar output to fuel it means depriving surrounding worlds of the solar energy, thus damaging, or even killing, the ecology and wildlife.

And that's the point. The geth are not holy examples. They aren't the abused cherubs that you take them as. They are as selfish as any organic, sometimes even more so,  and are just as faultable and acountible for the war as the quarians are.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 09:04 .

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the geth kill all quarians if you stand back and let them take the Reaper code.

Isn't THAT "magical" too?

Face it. If not for Shepard being there, then if it came right down to it, Legion would have snapped Tali's neck and uploaded the code itself to save the geth.

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Hell peace is gained by telling the Quarians to stand down. You don't tell the Geth to stop firing. You tell the Quarians to knock it off. (or threaten to stand and watch as they're blown to bits which is the only way I take peace.)

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

... we forget that up intil five minutes ago, the geth were legaly branded by the Council as enemies? And that there has been a general "kill on sight" order for them since Eden Prime over the Heretics? Which they did nothing to fix?

Or that the quarians have been victims in how they have lived hand-to-mouth, day-to-day in a decrepit fleet for 300 years? To the point where their immune system is so comprimised from not being on Rannoch that they can no longer survive without them?

And what if the positions were reversed? What if the geth had attacked first? In ME2, during the fight between Tali and Legion in the A.I. core, Shepard and Tali make a point that if the geth knew about the "research" Rael'Zorah was doing on live geth subjects, the geth would launch a full out attack in retaliation. Whether or the geth would have attacked because of the ethics of tesing on live geth, or because the quarians were developing weponized viruses from it, is unknown. But either way, it's made clear that the geth would have assaulted the Mirgant Fleet if they kenw what Rael (and later Xen) were doing.

And YES it's similar, but that should be the POINT - the geth are NOT justified any more then the quarians.

You just said there was a kill on sight order. How pray tell would they have fixed it? 

And that justifies them attacking the Geth despite KNOWING the Reapers are on the way...how exactly?

Yeah it is. You think humanity would've done any different with the Batarians? Hell ME3 opens up with them knowing the Batarians would start war if Shep wasn't detained. And I would've expected the Quarians to do the same if the Geth had been kidnapping them for weapons development. (and frankly would've encouraged it). That's not what happened.

To me they are. The second the Quarians attacked them in ME3 was the second I sided with the Geth. Especially after Tali and Legion told me they were trying peace talks just to be ignored. In ME2 to me they were equal and I sympathized with both, that went out the window in ME3.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Because the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for.

. They've stopped firing because they just got reprogrammed, again.

So you have no pity for the civilians who will be killed despite not participating in the war?  Did you laugh at Dorn'Hazt?  Silly mechanic, idiot shouldn't have crashed.

That's not it at all. But the Quarians did attack. And the ENTIRE race did attack. Wether or not they wanted to is a different matter. But, nonetheless, they are combatants now in this fight. I'm sorry they have to die, but their leader made some pretty unwise decisions. It's senseless violence and death for them, but that's the way it is.

[Phatose]

silverexile17s wrote...

And what if the positions were reversed? What if the geth had attacked first? In ME2, during the fight between Tali and Legion in the A.I. core, Shepard and Tali make a point that if the geth knew about the "research" Rael'Zorah was doing on live geth subjects, the geth would launch a full out attack in retaliation. Whether or the geth would have attacked because of the ethics of tesing on live geth, or because the quarians were developing weponized viruses from it, is unknown. But either way, it's made clear that the geth would have assaulted the Mirgant Fleet if they kenw what Rael (and later Xen) were doing.

And YES it's similar, but that should be the POINT - the geth are NOT justified any more then the quarians.

As a simple matter of fact, you can let Legion send that message.  If you do, does the Geth fleet attack the migrant fleet?

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That's not it at all. But the Quarians did attack. And the ENTIRE race did attack. Wether or not they wanted to is a different matter. But, nonetheless, they are combatants now in this fight. I'm sorry they have to die, but their leader made some pretty unwise decisions. It's senseless violence and death for them, but that's the way it is.

. Yeah screw those little quarian children.  Their fault for being born quarians.

But the remorseless genocidal robots, rainbows and unicorns as far the eye can see.