4712 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep and they don't start up again til the quarians keep firing. Notice in peace once the Quarians stop firing? They Geth don't. ZOMG.

They participated in the war the second they allowed their ships to be weapons. As for Dorn no I felt bad for him. Especially when I realized his poor son lost both parents within a year to the Quarians being idiots with the Geth. Just a stupid senseless war and waste of life over a hunk of rock that would've been quickly lost to the Reapers.

. God I hate it when people get drafted.  In case you didnt know, the quarian civilians couldn't have stopped it.  They are still under military jurisdiction.  The Admiralty can make that kind of decision and force the rest to go with it.

Do you really think the average quarian has any sort of participation in the war?  They are dragged along for the ride.

Yes they are. And since I side with the Geth, they have to suffer for it. It's a brutal fact - I blame Han'Gerrel and Daro'Xen, and the other militant Quarian elements, but those leaders made their choice. They're dead.

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...
. God I hate it when people get drafted.  In case you didnt know, the quarian civilians couldn't have stopped it.  They are still under military jurisdiction.  The Admiralty can make that kind of decision and force the rest to go with it.

Do you really think the average quarian has any sort of participation in the war?  They are dragged along for the ride.

You're telling me in society as dependant on one another as the Quarians are (they can't trade all that much, their military is subpar if anything, their population has to be a certain lvl, they don't have prisions) that the civilians have to bend over and take it from the military? Sorry not buying it.

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


And
that was in part because they were building a megastructure around
Rannoch's star, which would have siphoned away so much solar energy that
it would have killed Rannoch's ecology, which the quarians need.

And
Legion tries to kill Shepard if the Commander disagrees with the
upload. Organic life will always take a backseat to their personal
survival.

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

The
Geth Debris Field. And by Legion. They wrere building a Dyson Bubble,
which draws the solar output of a star and uses it to fuel itself. By
taking such massive amounts of solar energy, a Dyson Bubble or Dyson
Sphere is made at the cost of any habitable worlds near it, as taking
the total solar output to fuel it means depriving surrounding worlds of
the solar energy, thus damaging, or even killing, the ecology and
wildlife.

And that's the point. The geth are not holy
examples. They aren't the abused cherubs that you take them as. They are
as selfish as any organic,  just as faultable and acountible for the
war as the quarians are.

Ouch.

Where did I say they were holy examples? And abused Cherubs really? And yes I'm fully aware they're selfish I do not hold them as accountable as the Quarians though for the simple reason that the Quarians kept instigating.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them?

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims?

Of
course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her
people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the
point. It shows similarities.

. Why on Eartth would they stop?
They only know about the upload if Shepard tells them. If they hear
about it they stop, of they don't they keep fighting.

Because
the Geth fleet has stopped firing. Shepard flat out says he's going to
get rid of Reaper control before they even go down there. That was the
plan. The second they see they have an advantage, even WITH Tali telling
them to stop unless Shep successfully threatens them they attack.

They
attacked vulnerable geth that don't remain vunerable if Shep allows the
upload. That's what gets them killed. And that...I have no pity for.

So,
all those millions sitting in their cubes in the cargo hold who took no
part in this, never wanted any part in this...

In the outcome
where they die, they're never told the upload is taking place. Never
told the Geth are willing to spare them - if you have the VI with you, a
representative of what the Quarians were historically up against, it
makes it abundantly clear that it won't spare them, and unless
informed otherwise, they have every reason to believe that's what
they're still up against. They act on the information they have. If you
choose to deny that information to them, it's on you.

They made themselves part of it when they let weapons be placed on their ships. And no not buying the "they had no choice" arguement.
Quarians aren't slaves to their ships. They can leave, they could've
protested. If enough of them *had* done so. The rest wouldn't have had a
choice.

Tali flat out says the fleet can't afford large schisms
(thuse her reaction if Shep exposes the evidence). So clearly...this
must've been almost universally agreed on.

Tali asks them to stop, Legion talks to them (and I don't know or really care about the the VI since I never have Legion dead so that is a non-entity in my games.)

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes they are. And since I side with the Geth, they have to suffer for it. It's a brutal fact - I blame Han'Gerrel and Daro'Xen, and the other militant Quarian elements, but those leaders made their choice. They're dead.

. So the geth, who govern by consensus, and thusly must have reached the conclusion to willingly join the Reapers are not at fault.  But because of two quarians the entire species should die, including children, elderly, non-combatants, etc...?

That's ****ed up logic, even by my standards 

[Iamjdr]

I still don't understand how it's the quarians fault if they die if your the one allowing the upload to happen. They were winning before the reaper got involved they were winning after they killed the reaper what evidence is there that they might lose to the Geth till. You betray them and help there enemy become stronger usin reaper code and then the geth obliterate them... But they should have seen that coming right....

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That's not it at all. But the Quarians did attack. And the ENTIRE race did attack. Wether or not they wanted to is a different matter. But, nonetheless, they are combatants now in this fight. I'm sorry they have to die, but their leader made some pretty unwise decisions. It's senseless violence and death for them, but that's the way it is.

. Yeah screw those little quarian children.  Their fault for being born quarians.

But the remorseless genocidal robots, rainbows and unicorns as far the eye can see.

Yep. And those remorseless genocidal robots will be more useful and reliable to me in the fight against the bigger, more remorseless, more genocidal robots than the little Quarian children. I'm sorry that they had to die for the sins of their leaders and their inability to see anything bigger than the Geth. But that's what would happen if I couldn't make peace.

Fortunately, it's academic since I always make peace.

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

You're telling me in society as dependant on one another as the Quarians are (they can't trade all that much, their military is subpar if anything, their population has to be a certain lvl, they don't have prisions) that the civilians have to bend over and take it from the military? Sorry not buying it.

. What are they going to do?  They are under military rule.  It's not like people in North Korea can disobey the government.

Modifié par Steelcan, 18 mars 2013 - 09:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Iamjdr wrote...

I still don't understand how it's the quarians fault if they die if your the one allowing the upload to happen. They were winning before the reaper got involved they were winning after they killed the reaper what evidence is there that they might lose to the Geth till. You betray them and help there enemy become stronger usin reaper code and then the geth obliterate them... But they should have seen that coming right....

They'd lost anyway frankly.

The second the Reapers get into the fight its a foregone conclusion.

Shepard is what changes the tide. Whether in their favor, against them, or a tie (peace).


That said I understand *why* people side with the Quarians even if I won't do it. It's when people don't give the same consideration to those siding with the Geth that I get annoyed.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yep. And those remorseless genocidal robots will be more useful and reliable to me in the fight against the bigger, more remorseless, more genocidal robots than the little Quarian children. I'm sorry that they had to die for the sins of their leaders and their inability to see anything bigger than the Geth. But that's what would happen if I couldn't make peace.

Fortunately, it's academic since I always make peace.

. Without meta-gaming its impossible to know they won't be hacked again.  It's an awful risk to take on the word of a reaper augmented synthetic.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And yet, the geth kill all quarians if you stand back and let them take the Reaper code.

Isn't THAT "magical" too?

Face it. If not for Shepard being there, then if it came right down to it, Legion would have snapped Tali's neck and uploaded the code itself to save the geth.

...we forget the part where they only kill the Quarians because they persist in firing at them? 

Or is that going to be ignored to paint the Quarians as innocent victims? 

Hell peace is gained by telling the Quarians to stand down. You don't tell the Geth to stop firing. You tell the Quarians to knock it off. (or threaten to stand and watch as they're blown to bits which is the only way I take peace.)

Of course. Self preservation. Just like Tali would've shot him to save her people. Neither of them wouldn't have stopped the other. That's the point. It shows similarities.

... we forget that up intil five minutes ago, the geth were legaly branded by the Council as enemies? And that there has been a general "kill on sight" order for them since Eden Prime over the Heretics? Which they did nothing to fix?

Or that the quarians have been victims in how they have lived hand-to-mouth, day-to-day in a decrepit fleet for 300 years? To the point where their immune system is so comprimised from not being on Rannoch that they can no longer survive without them?

And what if the positions were reversed? What if the geth had attacked first? In ME2, during the fight between Tali and Legion in the A.I. core, Shepard and Tali make a point that if the geth knew about the "research" Rael'Zorah was doing on live geth subjects, the geth would launch a full out attack in retaliation. Whether or the geth would have attacked because of the ethics of tesing on live geth, or because the quarians were developing weponized viruses from it, is unknown. But either way, it's made clear that the geth would have assaulted the Mirgant Fleet if they kenw what Rael (and later Xen) were doing.

And YES it's similar, but that should be the POINT - the geth are NOT justified any more then the quarians.

You just said there was a kill on sight order. How pray tell would they have fixed it? 

And that justifies them attacking the Geth despite KNOWING the Reapers are on the way...how exactly?

Yeah it is. You think humanity would've done any different with the Batarians? Hell ME3 opens up with them knowing the Batarians would start war if Shep wasn't detained. And I would've expected the Quarians to do the same if the Geth had been kidnapping them for weapons development. (and frankly would've encouraged it). That's not what happened.

To me they are. The second the Quarians attacked them in ME3 was the second I sided with the Geth. Especially after Tali and Legion told me they were trying peace talks just to be ignored. In ME2 to me they were equal and I sympathized with both, that went out the window in ME3.

How about not giving a bad rep to beign with by shooting down unarmed diploamtic ships without so much as a wave-off. Or, like the Alliance did with Cerberus, try to take some responsibility and fix it, without having to wait till it's a problem for you too. Or broadcast that they were not hostile and just wanted seclusion? Any of these things, even if not initilally believed, would have layed the groundwork to build off of.

And becaue with the Reapers on the way, the quarians are desperate to find out how exactally they are supposed to survive against ships that can kill at least a dozen fully armed warships before dropping. A fleet of dilapidated tugs isn't going to be much good, especally if weighted down my millions of civilinans.

But the point stands that nither is more sympathetic then the other. In the Morning War, the geth used chem warfare to drive the quarians back (evo damage the geth say they are still cleaning up 300 years later. Only chemical weapons could leave marks that strong for that long, and the quarians using them makes no sense, so ergo, the geth used them). The geth are no more just in this then the quarians.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes they are. And since I side with the Geth, they have to suffer for it. It's a brutal fact - I blame Han'Gerrel and Daro'Xen, and the other militant Quarian elements, but those leaders made their choice. They're dead.

. So the geth, who govern by consensus, and thusly must have reached the conclusion to willingly join the Reapers are not at fault.  But because of two quarians the entire species should die, including children, elderly, non-combatants, etc...?

That's ****ed up logic, even by my standards 

The Geth joined the Reapers to protect themselves from the Quarians. I don't agree with that move, but they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Die, or willingly submit yourself to slavery. 

I don't think every Quarian should die, but since all their ships are firing at the Geth, the Geth have to defend themselves. Yeah, two Quarians screwed up the future of their race. The Illusive Man, whom I supported and admired, nearly screwed the entire galaxy. The alliance and the council refused to listen, so every major homeworld burned because of it. I told them, nearly begged them to listen, and I did the same with the Quarians. The powers that be made their choice. 

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You're telling me in society as dependant on one another as the Quarians are (they can't trade all that much, their military is subpar if anything, their population has to be a certain lvl, they don't have prisions) that the civilians have to bend over and take it from the military? Sorry not buying it.

. What are they going to do?  They are under military rule.  It's not like people in North Korea can disobey the government.

So in North Korea they have a strict population, immune problems (for the entire population), can't afford a horde of people leaving, can't detain people (they lack the room and necessities), and are generally ill liked by everyone else after starting a war with robots that left their population nearly devastated? 

No? Then please don't make that comparison.

Also Quarians CAN leave the fleet. It's not somethign they're forbidden from doing.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yep. And those remorseless genocidal robots will be more useful and reliable to me in the fight against the bigger, more remorseless, more genocidal robots than the little Quarian children. I'm sorry that they had to die for the sins of their leaders and their inability to see anything bigger than the Geth. But that's what would happen if I couldn't make peace.

Fortunately, it's academic since I always make peace.

. Without meta-gaming its impossible to know they won't be hacked again.  It's an awful risk to take on the word of a reaper augmented synthetic.

You're not really metagaming. Legion makes it pretty clear that the Geth cannot be hacked. Despite everything, I'm going to listen to him.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

[/quote]
The
Geth Debris Field. And by Legion. They wrere building a Dyson Bubble,
which draws the solar output of a star and uses it to fuel itself. By
taking such massive amounts of solar energy, a Dyson Bubble or Dyson
Sphere is made at the cost of any habitable worlds near it, as taking
the total solar output to fuel it means depriving surrounding worlds of
the solar energy, thus damaging, or even killing, the ecology and
wildlife.

And that's the point. The geth are not holy
examples. They aren't the abused cherubs that you take them as. They are
as selfish as any organic,  just as faultable and acountible for the
war as the quarians are.
[/quote]

Ouch.

Where did I say they were holy examples? And abused Cherubs really? And yes I'm fully aware they're selfish I do not hold them as accountable as the Quarians though for the simple reason that the Quarians kept instigating.

[/qoute]
The quarians instigated because they had no choice. They either had do suddenly become self-sufficant, or be of little to no help against the oncoming Reapers. They needed a world to do that. Preferably one that didn't have a lethal atmosphere. Rannoch is the only world that works on, and it's held by the geth - a race that has been labled as Reaper enemies by the Alliance and Council ever since Eden Prime.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Geth joined the Reapers to protect themselves from the Quarians. I don't agree with that move, but they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Die, or willingly submit yourself to slavery. 

I don't think every Quarian should die, but since all their ships are firing at the Geth, the Geth have to defend themselves. Yeah, two Quarians screwed up the future of their race. The Illusive Man, whom I supported and admired, nearly screwed the entire galaxy. The alliance and the council refused to listen, so every major homeworld burned because of it. I told them, nearly begged them to listen, and I did the same with the Quarians. The powers that be made their choice. 

. The geth choose to side with the Reapers.  No matter the reason it is inexcusable.

The quarians are all firing because they have no alternative.  What possible reason would the average Quarian have to stop?  He's never seen mercy at the hands of the geth he has no reason to expect it.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yep. And those remorseless genocidal robots will be more useful and reliable to me in the fight against the bigger, more remorseless, more genocidal robots than the little Quarian children. I'm sorry that they had to die for the sins of their leaders and their inability to see anything bigger than the Geth. But that's what would happen if I couldn't make peace.

Fortunately, it's academic since I always make peace.

. Without meta-gaming its impossible to know they won't be hacked again.  It's an awful risk to take on the word of a reaper augmented synthetic.

You're not really metagaming. Legion makes it pretty clear that the Geth cannot be hacked. Despite everything, I'm going to listen to him.

. Except you know when they get hacked....  By let's see... Reapers, virus, any decent omni-tool.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

How about not giving a bad rep to beign with by shooting down unarmed diploamtic ships without so much as a wave-off. Or, like the Alliance did with Cerberus, try to take some responsibility and fix it, without having to wait till it's a problem for you too. Or broadcast that they were not hostile and just wanted seclusion? Any of these things, even if not initilally believed, would have layed the groundwork to build off of.

And becaue with the Reapers on the way, the quarians are desperate to find out how exactally they are supposed to survive against ships that can kill at least a dozen fully armed warships before dropping. A fleet of dilapidated tugs isn't going to be much good, especally if weighted down my millions of civilinans.

But the point stands that nither is more sympathetic then the other. In the Morning War, the geth used chem warfare to drive the quarians back (evo damage the geth say they are still cleaning up 300 years later. Only chemical weapons could leave marks that strong for that long, and the quarians using them makes no sense, so ergo, the geth used them). The geth are no more just in this then the quarians.

What diplomats? How do you know it wasn't the heretics? 

Or you know they could've just did what worked...stayed in isolation. They were essentially children who's first experience with organics were them trying to kill them all. I don't know about you but I wouldn't be too eager to get to know more after that.

And getting a planet when that's EXACTLY what the Reapers are reaping isn't going to do them any good either. IF anythign it'd speed up their harvesting since their groundtroops are not real comparison to Reaper forces. (especially not since just a few indoctrinated Quarians getting access to the purification areas and whatnot could wreck major havock)

War's ugly I never denied that but you keep insisting I find them equally culpable. I'm not. The Quarians kept going back. I feel no pity for that kid that keeps kicking the lion and gets mauled as a result. Should've left the damn thing alone after the first time.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2013 - 09:18 .

[Iamjdr]

They would have won tho, it's clear seeing as they whoop the Geths ass before and after the reaper is involved proves it. And the Geth did side with the reapers hence shep stepped in and turn the tide back to the quarians favor because they are his allies. so to turn around and hand your allies enemies an upgrade that will, with legions own words wipe the quarians is baffling to me. If I was the the other races in the MEU I'd defiantly second guess my loyalty to shep and taking back earth in general...

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

So in North Korea they have a strict population, immune problems (for the entire population), can't afford a horde of people leaving, can't detain people (they lack the room and necessities), and are generally ill liked by everyone else after starting a war with robots that left their population nearly devastated? 

No? Then please don't make that comparison.

Also Quarians CAN leave the fleet. It's not somethign they're forbidden from doing.

. They can't leave the fleet.  They are dependent on it.  And if the leaders of the fleet decide to go to war the average captain can do nothing to stop it.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm on an iPad; your last reply to me is too illegible to reply to.

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You're telling me in society as dependant on one another as the Quarians are (they can't trade all that much, their military is subpar if anything, their population has to be a certain lvl, they don't have prisions) that the civilians have to bend over and take it from the military? Sorry not buying it.

. What are they going to do? They are under military rule. It's not like people in North Korea can disobey the government.

So in North Korea they have a strict population, immune problems (for the entire population), can't afford a horde of people leaving, can't detain people (they lack the room and necessities), and are generally ill liked by everyone else after starting a war with robots that left their population nearly devastated?

No? Then please don't make that comparison.

Also Quarians CAN leave the fleet. It's not somethign they're forbidden from doing.

Right. Where are they supposed to find food without the liveships? Where are they supposed to go on their own in a reaper-infested galaxy? They don't have the Normandy's fancy stealth system (hence why the Geth were able to blockade them in the Tikkun system). With the exception of the Liveships, almost all of them were already armed for defense against pirate raids long before the second Geth war was even considered a possibility. Even at that, their civilian armaments are relatively weak. Leave the fleet, and you have no food and no military protection.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

[/quote]
The
Geth Debris Field. And by Legion. They wrere building a Dyson Bubble,
which draws the solar output of a star and uses it to fuel itself. By
taking such massive amounts of solar energy, a Dyson Bubble or Dyson
Sphere is made at the cost of any habitable worlds near it, as taking
the total solar output to fuel it means depriving surrounding worlds of
the solar energy, thus damaging, or even killing, the ecology and
wildlife.

And that's the point. The geth are not holy
examples. They aren't the abused cherubs that you take them as. They are
as selfish as any organic,  just as faultable and acountible for the
war as the quarians are.
[/quote]

Ouch.

Where did I say they were holy examples? And abused Cherubs really? And yes I'm fully aware they're selfish I do not hold them as accountable as the Quarians though for the simple reason that the Quarians kept instigating.

[/qoute]
The quarians instigated because they had no choice. They either had do suddenly become self-sufficant, or be of little to no help against the oncoming Reapers. They needed a world to do that. Preferably one that didn't have a lethal atmosphere. Rannoch is the only world that works on, and it's held by the geth - a race that has been labled as Reaper enemies by the Alliance and Council ever since Eden Prime.

[/quote]

Yes they did.

They were already self sufficent! They'd been on those fleets for CENTURIES. (Ironically with those fleets they actually could've lived the longest of any species during the Reaper war. Especially with the relays not being shut and their ships stealth technology). As long as they kept track of Reaper movements and where it was thickest? They'd survived. As for little to no help against the oncoming Reapers they do still have military ships (not to mention if they had gotten Rannoch back most of their military *would've* been dedicated to keeping it safe. The Reapers would've had a valued interested in harvesting them quickly with their heavy cybernetic usage.) That and you know...they could've went to another hospitable planet. It's not like they could've lived outside their suits on Rannoch either.  Nope they wanted their homeworld and started a avoidable war to get it...fabulous.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yep. And those remorseless genocidal robots will be more useful and reliable to me in the fight against the bigger, more remorseless, more genocidal robots than the little Quarian children. I'm sorry that they had to die for the sins of their leaders and their inability to see anything bigger than the Geth. But that's what would happen if I couldn't make peace.

Fortunately, it's academic since I always make peace.

. Without meta-gaming its impossible to know they won't be hacked again.  It's an awful risk to take on the word of a reaper augmented synthetic.

You're not really metagaming. Legion makes it pretty clear that the Geth cannot be hacked. Despite everything, I'm going to listen to him.

. Except you know when they get hacked....  By let's see... Reapers, virus, any decent omni-tool.

The geth we fight in ME3 all have the upgrades. My Infiltrator and Engineer Shepards hack them constantly.

[Ryzaki]

[quote]Steelcan wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

So in North Korea they have a strict population, immune problems (for the entire population), can't afford a horde of people leaving, can't detain people (they lack the room and necessities), and are generally ill liked by everyone else after starting a war with robots that left their population nearly devastated? 

No? Then please don't make that comparison.

Also Quarians CAN leave the fleet. It's not somethign they're forbidden from doing.
[/quote]. They can't leave the fleet.  They are dependent on it.  And if the leaders of the fleet decide to go to war the average captain can do nothing to stop it.
[/quote]

...so all those Quarians we see going on their pilligramages and the ones Tali said stayed gone are wild mirages then? 

They eat the same food as TURIANS! It's not some magical substance that's only made by Quarians.

[quote]Right. Where are they supposed to find food without the liveships? Where
are they supposed to go on their own in a reaper-infested galaxy? They
don't have the Normandy's fancy stealth system (hence why the Geth were
able to blockade them in the Tikkun system). With the exception of the
Liveships, almost all of them were already armed for defense against
pirate raids long before the second Geth war was even considered a
possibility. Even at that, their civilian armaments are relatively weak.
Leave the fleet, and you have no food and no military
protection.[/quote][/quote]

Same place everyone else gets food. Someplace the Turians get it.

You'd think they'd offer their tech exptertise in the Reaper war. You know engineers and the like...things people will need? Or like most of the other races retreat to the Citadel (as packed as it is). Yes actually they do. Read the description for the ship you talk to Gerell and the others on. Whether they stole it or not is another question.

Again...dextros do live outside the fleet and any civilized planet will have it's own military protection. (especially with Reaper invasion.) So...?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

That is your interpretation.  Was the main character organic?  If so, how is what the author said not invariably the result of the accounts the main character heard from the history as told by organics?

Because the author is the creator of the true history. It's very convenient for you to handwave any information presented to us as "organic bias" but I can play that game, too.

Legion lied about the heretics. There never were any heretics. What happened was that the geth got their ass whupped by the Alliance in ME1 and became scared that the Council would approve a joint-effort to go into the Perseus Veil and wipe them out. So they fabricated the story about the heretics and brought Shepard to a space station full of geth so he could destroy them. There was no virus to rewrite the heretics.

Notice you can't prove anything I say wrong because Legion is the only person who can confirm or deny the existence of heretics. We take everything he says on faith, and we see in ME3 he's willing to lie for the survival of his species.

Of course, it's clear that we're supposed to take the heretic plot as truth because that's how stories work.

Yes the author is the creator of the true history not you.  I didn't read the passage to judge for myself what the author's intent was ie was he explaining true history to merely reflecting what the protagonist (ie an organic) thinks the true history to be.  Given you are obviously on the other side of the debate, why do you think I would accept your statement as fact when it could just be your interpretation of the author's intent. 

Have organics lied?  By your logic we have no proof that the Quarians were not genocidal maniacs and the fact a guy like Admiral Ghereal was put in charge of the Heavy Fleet suggests the Quarians trust fanatics more than they do sensible people.  That dude was willing to kill you after you bailed his a** out. The Salarians uplifted a people they knew were not ready for it to serve as cannon fodder against the Rachni and then when they rebelled they created the genophage to stop them.  The Turians planted a bomb under Tuchanka for the same reason.  The Asari hid the existence of a beacon so they could develop into the pre-eminent race in the galaxy.  So my point is why do organics get a pass for their lies and misdeeds?

You didnt answer the question.
Hasn't Legion lied to you, several times during ME3?  Doesn't that make it suspect?
This is an exact case of prejudice, of YOU with the geth. You take everything Legion says by word of mouth as true, but chastize anyone that does the same of Organics? Both EDI and Legion prove that synthetics are just as capable and willing to lie as any organic.
And again, WRONG. The missions with the Rachni, and the end of the genophage arc, are literally giving you the same choice with organics. So that's an asspull.

Let me tell you why I trust Legion.  Every single race in ME3 has their own selfish interests that they try and manipulate me to get.  Victus lied by ommission not telling me the Turians planted that bomb on Tuchanka.  The Salarian wanted me to lie about curing the genophage.  Admiral Gherel is just a grade A douchebag that risks civilians in his fanatical war against the Geth.  The Asari hid their beacon and used it to advance past all other races basically lying to them for centuries regarding the source of their accomplishments. 

Legion lied to protect his people just like everyone else did.  At the end of the day Legion fought his own people and as he said in the servers destroyed essentially a city of his people.  Show me where the others did the same? Tali is my love interest in most of my playthroughs but guess what even she accepted what she knew in her heart was wrong and didn't stand up against Gherel.  Legion stood up. 

That's a joke, right? If anything, no race, save the krogan, has demonstrated more selfishness then the geth.
They stay behind the Veil as the Heretics brun the Attaican Traverse and Skyllian Verge, and do nothing until two years later, when it affects them.
They stay behind the Veil while Earth and Palaven burn, not involved in the war till Right before Priority: Tuchanka, where the quarians launch their attack.
They let the entire galaxy hate them for 300 years, killing anything that came into the Veil, even unarmed peace envoyes, and did nothing to change public opinion of them.

And lies of omission are Legion's specialty in ME3. Legion lies by omission redarding the reason he helped you in the Geth Server, not telling Shepard that he intended to use the Commander as a diversion to recrute more geth. Legion again lies by omission regarding the fact that he stole the Reaper Upgrade Code for himself.
And WRONG. Legion spicifically says that all the programs that supposedly died were actually saved, transferred into the Geth Primes. He is NOT any more trustworthy then all those you talked about above.

And Admiral Gerrel was placing his people's survival at the highest priority. The entire reason they attack is so they can survive the Reapers, because they are little to no help to anyone unless they suddenly become self-sufficant. That's impossible without a world of their own, and Rannoch is the only one that has everything they need, and and atmosphere and crops that won't kill them.
And if you even try to bring the Geth Dreadnought into this, remember that if your entire race hangs in the balance of a choice you are making right now, any lifelong military man worth his rank will put the safety of his people over the safety of a single alien.

And if you do nothing in ME2, Tali allows herself to be exiled from the fleet, never to return under normal curcumstances, for the sake of preserving the fleet's stabilaty. Legion is no more a Patriot then Tali is.
Another example is Mordin or Padok Wiks dying to save the krogan, even though there is the possibilaty that it will doom the Salarians, as the resurgant krogan could want revenge. Shepard killed 300,000 batarians to stop the Reaper's arrival six months beofre in ME2.

[Ryzaki]

Ah I'm all argued out. I'll keep siding with the Geth in my game and you guys do whatever in yours. Live and let live

[DeinonSlayer]

Ryzaki wrote...

Same place everyone else gets food. Someplace the Turians get it.

You'd think they'd offer their tech exptertise in the Reaper war. You know engineers and the like...things people will need? Or like most of the other races retreat to the Citadel (as packed as it is). Yes actually they do. Read the description for the ship you talk to Gerell and the others on. Whether they stole it or not is another question.

Again...dextros do live outside the fleet and any civilized planet will have it's own military protection. (especially with Reaper invasion.) So...?

According to news announcements, the Citadel itself is going to start starving soon. They're already turning refugees away. Quarians can eat specially sterilized Turian food. If you know of a Turian colony which A) isn't under Reaper attack, is willing and able to accept an influx of millions of high-maintenance refugees, and C) isn't consumed by its own refugee crisis already, please do share.

EDIT: You're right, we clearly won't be changing each others' minds.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 mars 2013 - 09:42 .