4712 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...You were ordered by Hackett to recruit the Quarians because they were willing to help you. It's not like the Genophage arc, where the Krogan were holding the entire war effort hostage for something they're capable of fighting without. Without a planet, they Quarians are unable to aid the wider war effort. They tried to solve the problem on their own; that reaper interfered. Without assistance, the Quarians die and the Geth bring their shiny new dreadnought around to attack you. Without invading, Hackett gets no logistics fleet, the Quarians drift, praying the Reapers don't find them, and the Geth hide behind the veil as they've always done.

The Quarian decision to attack had the potential to screw over the Geth. The Geth decision to side with the Reapers had the potential to screw over everyone else.

This rings false.  Why exactly couldn't the Quarians help without Rannoch?  Their fleet has managed to get by without a planet for centuries.  They don't suddenly need one now.

Once again, when you have seven hundred civilians living in your cargo hold and you have to stay within shuttle distance of a liveship for daily food deliveries to keep them from starving, that ship is not available to pick up a shipload of platinum for delivery to the Crucible project, or to airlift refugees or troops out of a war zone. By offloading their covilians, they free up their ships to perform those tasks, and they don't risk a significant portion of their species with every ship lost. Xen's flashbang made victory seem like a sure thing. A reaper showing up, hocking code upgrades that the Heretics never had was a development which was never anticipated.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So your conscience is clean?  After you knowingly signed the death warrants of every quarian child?

I *didn't*.  The Quarian admiralty did that.

. No, you knew exactly what would happen if the code was pleaded and the quarians not warmed.  You might as well have shot them all.  You are more guilty than the geth, at least they could say it was self-defense.

[TNT1991]

I would (and always will) choose an organic race over a machine/synthetic one.

So, I would pick the Quarians over the Geth, without a second thought. I would even choose to save the Asari, Turian, Batarians, Krogan, etc. race over the Geth if I had to choose between the two.

[DeinonSlayer]

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...They aren't equipped to provide logistical support to organic races. The Quarians are. We're well aware of the Geth's combat capabilities. The question is, given their history and current actions, what grounds is there to trust them AND the reaper code we know almost nothing about, enough to sign the deal with the blood of seventeen million people?

The pact wasn't signed with the blood of seventeen million people.  Those seventeen million people died because they kept on attacking, even when notified the Reaper was dead.

Giving the Geth that code was my choice.  The Quarians getting wiped out?  That was the Quarians choice, not mine.

Encouraging the upload and not telling the Quarians about it was your choice.

If you don't tell them that A) the upload is taking place, and the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their history (as opposed to the VI, who announces its intent to exterminate them), those are two key facts they have no other way of knowing. For all they know, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't save them anyway. If you're going to make that choice, at least have the courage to own the consequences.

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So your conscience is clean?  After you knowingly signed the death warrants of every quarian child?

I *didn't*.  The Quarian admiralty did that.

. No, you knew exactly what would happen if the code was pleaded and the quarians not warmed.  You might as well have shot them all.  You are more guilty than the geth, at least they could say it was self-defense.

Actually, I didn't.  All that was really required for the Quarians to not die here was for them to stop shooting,  Pointing that fact out is the Paragon peace option - and the fact that peace is an option, even if we're discarding it here - means that I am not guilty of anything.

All they had to do was stop shooting.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So your conscience is clean?  After you knowingly signed the death warrants of every quarian child?

I *didn't*.  The Quarian admiralty did that.

. No, you knew exactly what would happen if the code was pleaded and the quarians not warmed.  You might as well have shot them all.  You are more guilty than the geth, at least they could say it was self-defense.

Actually, I didn't.  All that was really required for the Quarians to not die here was for them to stop shooting,  Pointing that fact out is the Paragon peace option - and the fact that peace is an option, even if we're discarding it here - means that I am not guilty of anything.

All they had to do was stop shooting.

. Why would they?  They have never experienced mercy at the hands of the geth.  They have only ever seen the geth slaughtering them wholesale.  Ceasing fire is an extremely dumb idea.

[Steelcan]

You won't even take responsibility......... At least I own the destruction of the geth.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

Where is that ever stated?

You say that like humanity or the quarians would've done different! 

[/quote]
The
Geth Debris Field. And by Legion. They wrere building a Dyson Bubble,
which draws the solar output of a star and uses it to fuel itself. By
taking such massive amounts of solar energy, a Dyson Bubble or Dyson
Sphere is made at the cost of any habitable worlds near it, as taking
the total solar output to fuel it means depriving surrounding worlds of
the solar energy, thus damaging, or even killing, the ecology and
wildlife.

And that's the point. The geth are not holy
examples. They aren't the abused cherubs that you take them as. They are
as selfish as any organic,  just as faultable and acountible for the
war as the quarians are.
[/quote]

Ouch.

Where did I say they were holy examples? And abused Cherubs really? And yes I'm fully aware they're selfish I do not hold them as accountable as the Quarians though for the simple reason that the Quarians kept instigating.

[/qoute]
The quarians instigated because they had no choice. They either had do suddenly become self-sufficant, or be of little to no help against the oncoming Reapers. They needed a world to do that. Preferably one that didn't have a lethal atmosphere. Rannoch is the only world that works on, and it's held by the geth - a race that has been labled as Reaper enemies by the Alliance and Council ever since Eden Prime.

[/quote]

Yes they did.

They were already self sufficent! They'd been on those fleets for CENTURIES. (Ironically with those fleets they actually could've lived the longest of any species during the Reaper war. Especially with the relays not being shut and their ships stealth technology). As long as they kept track of Reaper movements and where it was thickest? They'd survived. As for little to no help against the oncoming Reapers they do still have military ships (not to mention if they had gotten Rannoch back most of their military *would've* been dedicated to keeping it safe. The Reapers would've had a valued interested in harvesting them quickly with their heavy cybernetic usage.) That and you know...they could've went to another hospitable planet. It's not like they could've lived outside their suits on Rannoch either.  Nope they wanted their homeworld and started a avoidable war to get it...fabulous.
—---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote]
Damn thing is messing the qoute system up. But anyway, ^@Ryzaki, DEAD WRONG.

NO THEY DIDN'T!!!!

They were living on battered ships, which, accoding to the book Mass Effect: Ascencion, is less then eighty to seventy years from complete and total collapse. Time isn't on their side, and now the Reapers are here waging war on everything. If the full force of the turian military - a fleet made entirely of devoted warships - could do nothing but slow them down, what the hell do you think a fleet of retrofitted, outdated, and dilapidated tugs can do against them, especally when, unlike true warships, they are loaded with millions of civilians?

And the quarians were ANYTHING but self-sufficant!!!!!!
They needed to harvest resources conctantly, and lived hand-to mouth every day. That's NOT being self-sufficant, You have completely confused surviving with being self-sufficant. Self-sufficant means being able to actively manufacture everything you need, from food to fuel to raw repair material. The quarians have to mine, piliage, and hunt for all their resources like nomades. Self-sufficanr means having a stable power base with crops and habitable living conditions. The quarians are constantly on the move day-by-day, and are under constent threat of extinction from the possibilaty of "death by hull breach" every day.  Hell, they can't even survive without full-body exoskeletal suits and sealed rebrethers.
They are surviving. Bare-bones. Which is the complete opposate of being self-sufficant.

And only ONE of the quarians ships had that stealth technology. If they ALL had it, wouldn't they have retreated the moment the war turned on them? Because if one stealth ship, like Normandy or the quarians envoy ship, could do it, the rest of the fleet therorticly could. If the salarians can cloak dreadnoughts from the Reapers, then ship-size shoildn't matter.

And just staying on the sidelines, waiting till everyone else is dead? That's what the geth were planing to do, too. And it wouldn't have worked. Once they are all gone, the quarians are dead in the water with no allies to turn to, and every major resource harvested, meaning there is nothing for them to recover. Same for the geth, though they don't know that yet. The Reapers wouldn't have left the quarians be, and the quarians knew that. They knew that they were vunerable to accedental problems on a daily basis, so when thousands of Sovergien-Cass Reapers are after them, they know that in their current state, if left alone against them, that they would be well and truly boned.

And the quarians are best at logistics, even beating out the salarians on that according to Traynor, and their ships are best suited to troop transport and blockade running supplies to the war lines. Not straight-up fighting, as as shown when they are in a straight-up fight with the geth. The geth while blinded by viral weapons can't fight back. But when the can, the one-sided slaughter suddenly reverses to hit the other side. It's either fight smart and kick the enemy where they're weak, or get slugged in their glass jaw the first round in.

Also, what do you think they were DOING those 300 years? They HAD been looking for worlds to re-colonize.
But Dextro-worlds are rare, and finding ones that match Rannoch's insect-free symbiotic ecology is even harder. Even tougher still is finding one that has all the above, plus tolierable gravity levels, and breathable oxygen-based air levels, that is close enough to it's star to be in the "shirt sleeves" habitable temperature leves needed for huminoid mamals to survive.
It's not that easy. The closest they could find was Ekuna, and that world had high gravity levels and was barely surviable to them, but they were desperate. When they discovered the world, they settled a trial colony, and asked the Council or rights to make the world theirs. The Council instead sent a fleet to bomb their settelement if they didn't leave. They then gave the world to the elcor.
The quarians were also scouting Gei Hinnom, but the local varren populations and such made that a bad choice too. It was also too close to geth space, as they shot down the ship that was scouting the world.

Rannoch is the only world that has atmosphere, plants, and food that won't kill them. It also has an abundance of resources, as according to Legion, the geth never harvested or even touched any of the mineral deposits or resounces on the quarian worlds, instead mining asteroids.
So letts see.
Breathable atmosphere? Check.
Plants and food that won't kill them if eaten? Check.
Farmland to grow more quarian-safe food? Check.
Stable power base locations and untouched city ruins to build off of? Check.
Symbiotic ecology that can eliminate their need to wear suits? Check.
Large stores of untapped resources? Check.
Large amounts of technology to salvege? (geth bunkers and servers) Check.
World that's there's originally, so no Council politics to stop them from settling? Check.
Way to get it back with little to no loss of life? Check.

Rannoch has everything they need to become self-sufficant again. It;s their only hope of being able to make sure their race will survive even if the fleet dies fighting the Reapers, because then every ship lost won't take a large portion of the entire species with it

And the geth were assumed to be Reaper allies since Eden Prime. The only person who knew otherwise was Shepard, and because of the Alpha Relay and the Cerberus ties, nothing the Commander or crew said could be taken as admissable evidence of geth non-hostility, especally since the only source of information was a geth, which doesn't go well with Cerbeurs ties and the deaths of 300,000 batarians.
So, the geth were still considered enemies to the galaxy at large, so there was nothing preventing the quarians from attacking, except a treaty with the Council to not provoke them, which, technically, was already broken by Saren in ME1, so the treaty was in thruth completely redundant given the still active decleration of war the Alliance and Council had active against the geth.

LOOK at all that, THEN try and spout that there was no point to this, or that it was the quarians fault.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 10:45 .

[Phatose]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Phatose wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...They aren't equipped to provide logistical support to organic races. The Quarians are. We're well aware of the Geth's combat capabilities. The question is, given their history and current actions, what grounds is there to trust them AND the reaper code we know almost nothing about, enough to sign the deal with the blood of seventeen million people?

The pact wasn't signed with the blood of seventeen million people.  Those seventeen million people died because they kept on attacking, even when notified the Reaper was dead.

Giving the Geth that code was my choice.  The Quarians getting wiped out?  That was the Quarians choice, not mine.

Encouraging the upload and not telling the Quarians about it was your choice.

If you don't tell them that A) the upload is taking place, and the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their history (as opposed to the VI, who announces its intent to exterminate them), those are two key facts they have no other way of knowing. For all they know, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't save them anyway. If you're going to make that choice, at least have the courage to own the consequences.

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a matter of ethics, it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war.  While I'd much prefer to take a third option, the results of a war are always the responsibility of the aggressors.

Do I believe that they should've been warned when uploading that code?  Absolutely.  Do I believe the responsiblity shifts to me from them if I do not?  No.

Modifié par Phatose, 18 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Where's the third option? Why did the Quarians need to start a war with the Geth to begin with? 

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Dude, what?  No.

It's either Don't start the war and wait for the Reapers to kill them....or start the war, and still wait for the Reapers to kill them.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Where's the third option? Why did the Quarians need to start a war with the Geth to begin with? 

. Because they need Rannoch

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...
Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Dude, what?  No.

It's either Don't start the war and wait for the Reapers to kill them....or start the war, and still wait for the Reapers to kill them.

. They can fight back with their fleet once the civilians are off loaded 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

In case you guys forget how the Morning War got started, what happened, and how it ended, I'll link a blog post of mine rather than post a very long history of it here http://social.biowar...55/blog/232519/. Not that it is going to make any difference, since there are clearly lines drawn between Quarian haters and Quarian lovers.

You do realize the only reason that there are Quarians is that the consensus among the Geth was to exterminate all Quarians on Rannoch, right? The ones in space getting as far away as fast as possible were not on Rannoch. The Geth had to get all their programs together and reach another unanimous decision. They could not. It was not an act of mercy.

Also when the Normandy went to the Armstrong Nebula, which was in ME1, those were not Heretic Geth. Those were regular Legion's Geth. They shot first and asked questions later. These are not the cuddly warm and fuzzy robots that Legion suddenly became. They became this way over the course of 1 year when Legion went back to the consensus and ONLY if Legion made it back to the consensus.

Did any of you play the game with Geth VI? You know the genocidal version of Legion? I'm just curious. This is the version we're talking about here.

Remember what the Geth are: http://youtu.be/fiaedZF72gg?t=31s. Legion explains the difference between synthetics and organics better here than you get anywhere in any of the games. This is why I keep posting it. Basically synthetics are software loaded onto mobile platforms. The software can be downloaded and uploaded at will. If the platform becomes nonfunctional, the software can be uploaded onto a new platform if one is available.

With an organic, this is not the case. Each organic is unique, and at this time a complete mental transfer of awareness from one brain to another is not possible. As Legion puts it. Development of an organic takes time. It is not instantaneous.

Now the Geth "leader" wants to become a real boy. Own a home with a 30 year mortage, have a 9-5 job he hates, pretend to like his neighbor, screw over his fellow Geth when ever he gets a chance. He wants to be like you! And he wants all the other Geth to be like that, too! That's a hell of a deal, isn't it?

The Geth go from being something truly alien and unique to being blah. All for the sake of that reaper code. And another thing.... did anyone know that the reaper code wouldn't put the Geth under control of the Reapers? No. Just because Legion or Geth VI said it wouldn't? Ha! Do you believe everything you hear?

You happened to luck out because "siding with the geth was 'paragon' and siding with the quarians was 'renegade'." But what if it did? Then what would you have done?

Legion lied, too. Geth VI lied. The images in the consensus painted what the Geth wanted you to see. It was their side of the Morning War. Their sanitized version. It didn't show the ruthless extermination. What about the 99%?

So given that I have to make a choice, I choose the Quarians. There is no second guessing.

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

[silverexile17s]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Where's the third option? Why did the Quarians need to start a war with the Geth to begin with? 

To both @Phatose and @MassivelyEffective0730

They do need Rannoch, because the quarians are not a self-sufficant race. They need constant resources, and their fleet is so symbioticlly dependant on each other becsuse of the overpopulation, that the civilians and military ships cannot be seperated to tackle multiple fronts. Also, there is no where else for the quarians to go. The dextro-worlds that are habiatible are all turian owned, and they are all either under attack, or full well past capasity. There is little to no chance that any overfull colony that isn't already under attack can activelly take on 16 million civilians that all have very strict health needs and diets. Also, on any other world, suit breaches kill, and all the food must be sterilized into paste before eating.

Also, since the geth have been labled Reaper allies and galactic enemies since Eden Prime for 3 years, the quarians believed that there was nothing wrong with attacking a faction that is still on the "At War" list of the Council.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 mars 2013 - 10:57 .

[MegaSovereign]

All this arguing over a bunch of fictional toasters.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

[silverexile17s]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

And the lack of it has made them unable to survive without suits.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Curious.   Seems I've remembered the order of events in the scene incorrectly.  Would've sworn the inital warning was that they were about to come back to full strength, but it seems I've misremembered that.

More ethically shaky.

Still, as a ethics it's still fundamentally the Quarians fault.  They started that war. 

. They had no choice in starting the war.  It was either start the war, or wait for the Reapers to kill them.

Where's the third option? Why did the Quarians need to start a war with the Geth to begin with? 

. Because they need Rannoch

Maybe. But the Geth are willing to share. Tali and Shepard have told them as such. Did they have to start a war? 

And can't they colonize another world? It may not be the same for them, but for the time being, they can keep their non-combatants out of the fight while the Flotilla engages the Reapers. They can sort out the Rannoch mess after the war.

Couldn't the Quarians have come to the council for help? Like getting resources in return for the use of their fleets as military power?

[Phatose]

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

They've been living without Rannoch's symbiotic ecology in suits for centuries.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

silverexile17s wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

And the lack of it has made them unable to survive without suits.

But they're still able to colonize other worlds. They may need their suits, but it's better than nothing, or wasting your ships on the Geth.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Maybe. But the Geth are willing to share. Tali and Shepard have told them as such. Did they have to start a war? 

And can't they colonize another world? It may not be the same for them, but for the time being, they can keep their non-combatants out of the fight while the Flotilla engages the Reapers. They can sort out the Rannoch mess after the war.

Couldn't the Quarians have come to the council for help? Like getting resources in return for the use of their fleets as military power?

. Then why didnt the geth reach out? Why didnt Legion's geth offer to help?  Furthermore, why would the quarians believe two people about the geth, when their experience with the geth revolves largely around being exterminated.  

The council doesn't have resources to spare, especially for the quarians.

[Steelcan]

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

They've been living without Rannoch's symbiotic ecology in suits for centuries.

. And look what that has done to them.