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*THE GREAT DEBATE* - NO PEACE obtainable between the Geth & Quarians: Who would you choose and Why? (Pic of BioWare Stats Inside)


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#951
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So your conscience is clean?  After you knowingly signed the death warrants of every quarian child?


I *didn't*.  The Quarian admiralty did that.

. No, you knew exactly what would happen if the code was pleaded and the quarians not warmed.  You might as well have shot them all.  You are more guilty than the geth, at least they could say it was self-defense.


Well in that case, I live with my guilt, and I have no problems with it.

The Quarians made their choice in the long run. What exactly was I going to say to change that? Besides, you can already warn the Quarians. You're arguing about the possibility of something that is already achievable. You have no argument.

#952
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But they're still able to colonize other worlds. They may need their suits, but it's better than nothing, or wasting your ships on the Geth.

. But they aren't wasting it.  Until the Reaper intervened the war was ddecided one sided.

#953
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well in that case, I live with my guilt, and I have no problems with it.

The Quarians made their choice in the long run. What exactly was I going to say to change that? Besides, you can already warn the Quarians. You're arguing about the possibility of something that is already achievable. You have no argument.

. No the quarians did not make a choice.  Three admirals made a choice.  The quarians don't govern by consensus like the geth.  The geth collectively decided that killing the quarians and allying with the Reapers was a worthwhile endeavor.  The quarians aren't even democratic at this point.

#954
remydat

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silverexile17s wrote...

That's a joke, right? If anything, no race, save the krogan, has demonstrated more selfishness then the geth.
They stay behind the Veil as the Heretics brun the Attaican Traverse and Skyllian Verge, and do nothing until two years later, when it affects them.
They stay behind the Veil while Earth and Palaven burn, not involved in the war till Right before Priority: Tuchanka, where the quarians launch their attack.
They let the entire galaxy hate them for 300 years, killing anything that came into the Veil, even unarmed peace envoyes, and did nothing to change public opinion of them.

And lies of omission are Legion's specialty in ME3. Legion lies by omission redarding the reason he helped you in the Geth Server, not telling Shepard that he intended to use the Commander as a diversion to recrute more geth. Legion again lies by omission regarding the fact that he stole the Reaper Upgrade Code for himself.
And WRONG. Legion spicifically says that all the programs that supposedly died were actually saved, transferred into the Geth Primes. He is NOT any more trustworthy then all those you talked about above.

And Admiral Gerrel was placing his people's survival at the highest priority. The entire reason they attack is so they can survive the Reapers, because they are little to no help to anyone unless they suddenly become self-sufficant. That's impossible without a world of their own, and Rannoch is the only one that has everything they need, and and atmosphere and crops that won't kill them.
And if you even try to bring the Geth Dreadnought into this, remember that if your entire race hangs in the balance of a choice you are making right now, any lifelong military man worth his rank will put the safety of his people over the safety of a single alien.

And if you do nothing in ME2, Tali allows herself to be exiled from the fleet, never to return under normal curcumstances, for the sake of preserving the fleet's stabilaty. Legion is no more a Patriot then Tali is.
Another example is Mordin or Padok Wiks dying to save the krogan, even though there is the possibilaty that it will doom the Salarians, as the resurgant krogan could want revenge. Shepard killed 300,000 batarians to stop the Reaper's arrival six months beofre in ME2.


Expecting people who you have laws prohibiting their existence and who you tried to exterminate to help you when you are in trouble is ridiculous.  The Quarians are allies but they decided it was more important to kill Geth than it was to help humans and Turians.  In fact, none of the races wanted to help each other until Shepard made them do it.  They would have happily let each other burn if it meant it allowed them more time to prepare for the Reapers.  

So where is your disdain for all these allies who didn't come to help?  The Geth being long time military men as you called Gherel know it is stupid to risk your life for an enemey who would destroy you if they could.  You want the Geth to do something that you are ok with Gherel not doing.  Bull.

And if self-sufficiency was so important to Admiral Gherel maybe the Quarians should have settled a new world a long time ago.  This is illogical.  If they could magically grow food and survive on metal spaceships for 300 years, it is illogical to pretend like there were no other planets they could have settled.  They refused too.

Also, please prove to me that these peace envoys were unarmed?  Did the novel explicitly say they were unarmed or are you assuming that because I would think most ships are armed outside of pure civilian ships.

The Geth were hated for merely existing.  That is it.  Their existence was banned and attempts were made to exterminate them.  If they want to not involve themselves with the prejudiced a**holes that created laws banning them that is their right.  This would be like saying it is up to the black person to force the KKK to like them.  Or for Jews to force the ****'s to like them.  No it isn't.  It is up to the a**hole prejudiced person to stop being an a**hole prejudiced person.

Was the Dalatross remorsefull for being a manipulative douche?  Everyone lies especially when the lives of their people are at stake.  The difference is Legion still felt ashamed for lying while these other leaders were not.

#955
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The Geth are only willing to share IF Legion made it back to the consensus. If Legion didn't make it back to the consensus, the Geth are NOT willing to share. Geth VI is NOT willing to share. This is a fact. Peace is impossible with Geth VI.

The Quarians have tried settling on other worlds before, and the Council still punishes them for creating the Geth, 300 years later. The Quarians settled on one world and the Council found out, and gave the world to the Elcor. It is in the codex.

The Quarians have no other choice but to retake Rannoch. It is the only world the Council will not evict them from. Their fleet is not going to last forever.

#956
Steelcan

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@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.

#957
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But they're still able to colonize other worlds. They may need their suits, but it's better than nothing, or wasting your ships on the Geth.

. But they aren't wasting it.  Until the Reaper intervened the war was ddecided one sided.


Yes. And the Geth did not wish to die. Is it a crime that they too can choose to live? 

They're being attacked by Quarian forces hellbent on killing them.

They can try to reach out to a galaxy that is indifferent and hostile to them, that is also facing its own problem with the Reapers. Or they can accept the Reapers offer of enslavement for the price of survival.

Oh, and much of their processing power has been lost due to the Quarians destroying their dyson sphere. What exactly are the Geth's options?

#958
remydat

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andy69156915 wrote...

So remydat, did you just throw in the towel and give up on debating my points? Because it's been SEVERAL pages since I made my response to you.


Nope I didn't see your response.

#959
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes. And the Geth did not wish to die. Is it a crime that they too can choose to live? 

They're being attacked by Quarian forces hellbent on killing them.

They can try to reach out to a galaxy that is indifferent and hostile to them, that is also facing its own problem with the Reapers. Or they can accept the Reapers offer of enslavement for the price of survival.

Oh, and much of their processing power has been lost due to the Quarians destroying their dyson sphere. What exactly are the Geth's options?

. No but it is a crime to ally with the Reapers.  The geth knew they were making a deal with the devil(s) but they did it anyway.  I sympathize with their reasoning for it.  But its not going to endear them to me.

#960
sH0tgUn jUliA

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But they're still able to colonize other worlds. They may need their suits, but it's better than nothing, or wasting your ships on the Geth.

. But they aren't wasting it.  Until the Reaper intervened the war was ddecided one sided.


Yes. And the Geth did not wish to die. Is it a crime that they too can choose to live? 

They're being attacked by Quarian forces hellbent on killing them.

They can try to reach out to a galaxy that is indifferent and hostile to them, that is also facing its own problem with the Reapers. Or they can accept the Reapers offer of enslavement for the price of survival.

Oh, and much of their processing power has been lost due to the Quarians destroying their dyson sphere. What exactly are the Geth's options?


Surrender?

See they sided with the enemy who is going to kill them anyway.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 mars 2013 - 11:17 .


#961
Steelcan

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The geth also never bothered to tell the quarians they were open to peace.

#962
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well in that case, I live with my guilt, and I have no problems with it.

The Quarians made their choice in the long run. What exactly was I going to say to change that? Besides, you can already warn the Quarians. You're arguing about the possibility of something that is already achievable. You have no argument.

. No the quarians did not make a choice.  Three admirals made a choice.  The quarians don't govern by consensus like the geth.  The geth collectively decided that killing the quarians and allying with the Reapers was a worthwhile endeavor.  The quarians aren't even democratic at this point.

No they're not. I never said they were. The Admirals made their choice. The Admirals speak for and lead all Quarians. 

They chose to go to war. Unless there was a mass rebellion by the people (which is unlikely, since in ME2, it's stated that war is supported overall by the Quarians), there's nothing the people could do. Quarians by their nature are very close and insular as a people, coupled with the resources they need that only the flotilla can provide en masse, and the galaxy at large doesn't have a very popular perception of Quarians.

Do they all die because of the incompetence of their leadership? Yes they do. Should they all die? No they shouldn't. But with the leaders they have, that's the unfortunate truth.

#963
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.


Incorrect.  Laws existed banning AI before the creation of the Geth.  Further, the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth before they killed a single person.  The Geth were hated before they were even created because organics have an irrational fear of their own creations ie organics are ******* morons who due to their prejudice against synthetic life routinely got their ass killed to the point they had to be harvested to prevent synthetics from completely erasing organic life from the universe because of that irrational fear.

When you try and exterminate someone stronger than you and lose you can't cry.  Do you understand the concept of war.  The Quarians attacked.   At what point did a Quarian leader stop and think wow, maybe we should surrender since 50 MILLION OF US ARE DEAD.  Nope, those idiots kept fighting and kept getting killed.  Now if there is evidence the Quarians wanted to surrender and the Geth refused please share it and I will consider it.  Until then, 99% of them died because their leaders were idiots.  They should have been brought up on charges of treason because their fanatical war destroyed their own people.

Modifié par remydat, 18 mars 2013 - 11:26 .


#964
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

No they're not. I never said they were. The Admirals made their choice. The Admirals speak for and lead all Quarians. 

They chose to go to war. Unless there was a mass rebellion by the people (which is unlikely, since in ME2, it's stated that war is supported overall by the Quarians), there's nothing the people could do. Quarians by their nature are very close and insular as a people, coupled with the resources they need that only the flotilla can provide en masse, and the galaxy at large doesn't have a very popular perception of Quarians.

Do they all die because of the incompetence of their leadership? Yes they do. Should they all die? No they shouldn't. But with the leaders they have, that's the unfortunate truth.

. "The civilian fleet didnt want this war"
"after the quarians drove the geth into the Reapers arm, I'd give anything to stop the madness of this war"
"I thought maybe there was the chance for peace"

I can't hear you over quarians not wanting the war.

#965
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

The geth also never bothered to tell the quarians they were open to peace.


The Geth aren't exactly trusting of the Quarians either. Legion states why.

He states that the Geth observe the Quarians to either attack or flee when faced with the Geth. When victory in combat is 100% likely, the Quarians attack. The Quarians aren't open to negotiation either.

#966
Steelcan

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remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.


Incorrect.  Laws existed banning AI before the creation of the Geth.  Further, the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth before they killed a single person. 
.

. That's why they are hated.  It's not why they were attacked in the first place.

everything else you said is just pure idiocy.

#967
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The geth also never bothered to tell the quarians they were open to peace.


The Geth aren't exactly trusting of the Quarians either. Legion states why.

He states that the Geth observe the Quarians to either attack or flee when faced with the Geth. When victory in combat is 100% likely, the Quarians attack. The Quarians aren't open to negotiation either.

. Except for Tali and Koris, two, well One and a half admirals who are open to peace.

The geth are also just as aggressive.  They didn't exactly endear themselves.  Killing civilians tends to do that.

#968
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

No they're not. I never said they were. The Admirals made their choice. The Admirals speak for and lead all Quarians. 

They chose to go to war. Unless there was a mass rebellion by the people (which is unlikely, since in ME2, it's stated that war is supported overall by the Quarians), there's nothing the people could do. Quarians by their nature are very close and insular as a people, coupled with the resources they need that only the flotilla can provide en masse, and the galaxy at large doesn't have a very popular perception of Quarians.

Do they all die because of the incompetence of their leadership? Yes they do. Should they all die? No they shouldn't. But with the leaders they have, that's the unfortunate truth.

. "The civilian fleet didnt want this war"
"after the quarians drove the geth into the Reapers arm, I'd give anything to stop the madness of this war"
"I thought maybe there was the chance for peace"

I can't hear you over quarians not wanting the war.


OK. Then where is the protection for the fleet then? The military is going to fight. Without the military, the civilians have no protection. 

They'd be easy pickings for the Geth and the Reapers if they abandoned the Heavy Fleet. They can wish away the war all they want. They have no choice but to support the Heavy Fleet in whatever it does.

Admiral Gerrel uses this to his advantage on the Geth Dreadnought. He literally extorts the Heavy Fleet from the rest of the Quarians.

#969
DeinonSlayer

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remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.


Incorrect.  Laws existed banning AI before the creation of the Geth.  Further, the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth before they killed a single person. 

When you try and exterminate someone stronger than you and lose you can't cry.  Do you understand the concept of war.  The Quarians attacked.   At what point did a Quarian leader stop and think wow, maybe we should surrender since 50 MILLION OF US ARE DEAD.  Nope, those idiots kept fighting and kept getting killed.  Now if there is evidence the Quarians wanted to surrender and the Geth refused please share it and I will consider it.  Until then, 99% of them died because their leaders were idiots.  They should have been brought up on charges of treason because their fanatical war destroyed their own people.

Wrong. According to the books (I quoted the relevant portion in its entirety several pages back), the Quarians had "neither the strength nor the numbers" to stand against the Geth. The Geth committed a genocide of their own, killing everyone on Rannoch who couldn't secure passage off-world. The Geth VI will do so again, remorselessly, if given half a chance.

#970
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The geth also never bothered to tell the quarians they were open to peace.


The Geth aren't exactly trusting of the Quarians either. Legion states why.

He states that the Geth observe the Quarians to either attack or flee when faced with the Geth. When victory in combat is 100% likely, the Quarians attack. The Quarians aren't open to negotiation either.

. Except for Tali and Koris, two, well One and a half admirals who are open to peace.

The geth are also just as aggressive.  They didn't exactly endear themselves.  Killing civilians tends to do that.

The Geth are not just as aggressive. They're content to do their own thing. The Quarians attack and present a threat. The Geth respond by eliminating the threat. Especially after their dyson sphere housing billions of Geth are destroyed.

The Quarians didn't have to attack the Geth. 

#971
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

OK. Then where is the protection for the fleet then? The military is going to fight. Without the military, the civilians have no protection. 

They'd be easy pickings for the Geth and the Reapers if they abandoned the Heavy Fleet. They can wish away the war all they want. They have no choice but to support the Heavy Fleet in whatever it does.

Admiral Gerrel uses this to his advantage on the Geth Dreadnought. He literally extorts the Heavy Fleet from the rest of the Quarians.

. That's the issue.  They are dragged along without any alternative.

#972
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.


Incorrect.  Laws existed banning AI before the creation of the Geth.  Further, the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth before they killed a single person. 
.

. That's why they are hated.  It's not why they were attacked in the first place.

everything else you said is just pure idiocy.


Maybe I am confusing your point.  The Quarians tried to kill the Geth because they were synthetic life.  At the time they tried to do this the Geth were not antagonistic towards them.  In fact, we saw a Geth refusing to be shut down and begging it's master to explain why it needed to be killed when it coudl still serve.  We then saw Quarians being murdered by their own people because they did not want the Geth to be terminated.

So why were they attacked in the first place if not for the irrational fear the Quarians and organics had of synthetics.

#973
MassivelyEffective0730

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Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

OK. Then where is the protection for the fleet then? The military is going to fight. Without the military, the civilians have no protection. 

They'd be easy pickings for the Geth and the Reapers if they abandoned the Heavy Fleet. They can wish away the war all they want. They have no choice but to support the Heavy Fleet in whatever it does.

Admiral Gerrel uses this to his advantage on the Geth Dreadnought. He literally extorts the Heavy Fleet from the rest of the Quarians.

. That's the issue.  They are dragged along without any alternative.

Yes they are.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mars 2013 - 11:32 .


#974
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The Geth are not just as aggressive. They're content to do their own thing. The Quarians attack and present a threat. The Geth respond by eliminating the threat. Especially after their dyson sphere housing billions of Geth are destroyed.

The Quarians didn't have to attack the Geth. 

. What were their alternatives?  They can't use any planet they run across they have a specially adapted immune system.  They can't stay in space.  

They have a weapon that will deliver them Rannoch.  The geth haven't made any offer of peace or negotiation.  Why wouldn't they attack?

#975
Steelcan

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes they are.

. And it is unfathomable to me why these people should die because of their leaders.  Whereas the geth choose, as a collective entity to  willingly join the Reapers.