4712 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

@remydat

"Nope I didn't see your response."

Yet you still don't respond to it even when I call attention to it. That's quite telling...

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wrong. According to the books (I quoted the relevant portion in its entirety several pages back), the Quarians had "neither the strength nor the numbers" to stand against the Geth. The Geth committed a genocide of their own, killing everyone on Rannoch who couldn't secure passage off-world. The Geth VI will do so again, remorselessly, if given half a chance.

Can you post this passage again or let me know what page it is on.  I don't recall seeing it.

And all you are telling me is the Quarians stupidly tried to terminate a group that they didn't have the power to do.  Look did they try and kill the Geth or not, Yes or No?  Did they kill other Quarians who resisted?  Yes or No.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes they are.

. And it is unfathomable to me why these people should die because of their leaders.  Whereas the geth choose, as a collective entity to  willingly join the Reapers.

I don't know either. Do you think the average North Korean (not the one who lives in Pyongyang) wants war with America? No. They want food to survive. 

But when Kim Jong un's saber rattling finally turns to real fighting, they're going to have to suffer for it.

It's an unfortunate reality of war. It doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be, but it is.

But as for the Geth, do you suggest they do nothing? They really had no alternative. I already mentioned why they had no alternative.

The core issues with this conflict stem back to 300 years during the Morning War. That's the reality behind it. Why did the Quarians have to react with such hostility to the Geth gaining sentience (I hesitate to call them completely sapient at this point). Why do organics in general hold such hostile views of synthetics? 

Is this not what the Catalyst was supposedly preventing? Isn't this what Leviathan observed?

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mars 2013 - 11:40 .

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

@remydat

"Nope I didn't see your response."

Yet you still don't respond to it even when I call attention to it. That's quite telling...

No I did a qucik scan of a a few pages and couldn't find it.  If you tell me where it is I will look at it and respond but with all the activity in this thread I am not going to dig through posts when there is more than enough current posts to keep me busy and frankly I doubt you said anything that I haven't already covered.  Most of what we are doing now is just repeating our points ad naseum.

Modifié par remydat, 18 mars 2013 - 11:38 .

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't know either. Do you think the average North Korean (not the one who lives in Pyongyang) wants war with America? No. They want food to survive. 

But when Kim Jong un's saber rattling finally turns to real fighting, they're going to have to suffer for it.

It's an unfortunate reality of war. It doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be, but it is.

But as for the Geth, do you suggest they do nothing? They really had no alternative. I already mentioned why they had no alternative.

The core issues with this conflict stem back to 300 years during the Morning War. That's the reality behind it.

. They had an alternative.  They could have reached out to the quarians.  They didnt.  The quarians were receptive to this, but it never came.

Really neither side had any alternative.  But I'm going to stick with the quarians.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't know either. Do you think the average North Korean (not the one who lives in Pyongyang) wants war with America? No. They want food to survive. 

But when Kim Jong un's saber rattling finally turns to real fighting, they're going to have to suffer for it.

It's an unfortunate reality of war. It doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be, but it is.

But as for the Geth, do you suggest they do nothing? They really had no alternative. I already mentioned why they had no alternative.

The core issues with this conflict stem back to 300 years during the Morning War. That's the reality behind it.

. They had an alternative.  They could have reached out to the quarians.  They didnt.  The quarians were receptive to this, but it never came.

Really neither side had any alternative.  But I'm going to stick with the quarians.

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. Really only Koris and Tali are open to the idea of peace. Even if Xen and Raan are too, Gerrel holds too much clout with the Heavy Fleet. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

And I stick with the Geth.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

No because as a general rule I go for the option that gives me two fleets instead of one.

The Geth then have the honor of sacrificing themselves heroically to help destroy the Reapers.

Because when asked "What the hell was all that" Cheesecake Shep would reply "Turns out the Crucible was built to kill synthetics. We shall honor our fallen robros and celebrate our great victory."

Wouldn't be the first time a lie has served a noble purpose.

[Jukaga]

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

Modifié par Jukaga, 18 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

. Gerrel had no reason to think its possible.  Tali met Legion face to face and Koris wants peace desperately.

as for your addition.
The quarians attacked probably because the council would have taken action against them if they didnt.

[llandwynwyn]

Nope.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wrong. According to the books (I quoted the relevant portion in its entirety several pages back), the Quarians had "neither the strength nor the numbers" to stand against the Geth. The Geth committed a genocide of their own, killing everyone on Rannoch who couldn't secure passage off-world. The Geth VI will do so again, remorselessly, if given half a chance.

Can you post this passage again or let me know what page it is on.  I don't recall seeing it.

And all you are telling me is the Quarians stupidly tried to terminate a group that they didn't have the power to do.  Look did they try and kill the Geth or not, Yes or No?  Did they kill other Quarians who resisted?  Yes or No.

Page 22 of this thread, half-way down. The Quarians were evidently right to fear what the Geth were capable of. Their government's error was in their judgement of Geth motives.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Personally I blame Raan for the whole mess.

Gerrel and Xen were all up for the war, Tali and Koris were dead set against it, leaving Raan with the deciding vote, her moral weakness very nearly doomed her species.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

. Gerrel had no reason to think its possible.  Tali met Legion face to face and Koris wants peace desperately.

as for your addition.
The quarians attacked probably because the council would have taken action against them if they didnt.

Made an addendum to the post that you quoted here.

[remydat]

Jukaga wrote...

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

And how is that any different than the Quarians claims?  Oh wait, it is different because Admiral Koris ADMITS THE GETH ATTACKED BECAUSE THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST.

Now please, let's hear all the theories on how Admiral Koris is a lying traitor who is just a Geth in disguise.

I mean seriously, will the organic lovers go to any lengths to pretend that Legion is lying and the Quarians did not try and wipe the Geth out first?  Look, just say you side with organics because you think the Geth are just expensive toasters and be done with it.  Trying to justify what the Quarians did on moral grounds is just silly. 

[Cagamelo]

Legion specifically says during ME2 that they refused Sovereign's offer because they wanted to evolve on their own. At the beginning of the Rannoch arc, when we are inside the Geth dreadnought we are informed that they are completely under Reaper control. They pretty much sell their free will to the Reapers in order to save themselves at the cost of everyone else.

Let's say Shep would never go into the Perseus Veil, the Quarians would be exterminated, and they (the Geth) under Reaper control would proceed to attack the rest of us. They aren't victims, they accepted the deal without giving a single f*ck about the rest of the galaxy.

Would you sacrifice the lives of everyone else on the planet to preserve your own? If you answer is yes, then you are evil just like the talking toasters.

Also before the Legion upload they aren't a true AI, so at that point a Quarian life is worth more that a thousand Geth, after the upload it get's even worse since they use Reaper technology (technology that is NOT theirs) to instantly evolve, contradicting everything Legion tells us during ME2, how can you trust a hypocrite machine?

Modifié par Cagamelo, 18 mars 2013 - 11:55 .

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

. Gerrel had no reason to think its possible.  Tali met Legion face to face and Koris wants peace desperately.

as for your addition.
The quarians attacked probably because the council would have taken action against them if they didnt.

So you are saying the Quarians feared the repercussions of a policy that the leaders of the Organic space fearing races decided ie True Synthetics should not exist?  And the Geth should just sit there and accept their fate because some loser Asari, Turian and Salarian councillors decided this should be so?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

And how is that any different than the Quarians claims?  Oh wait, it is different because Admiral Koris ADMITS THE GETH ATTACKED BECAUSE THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST.

Now please, let's hear all the theories on how Admiral Koris is a lying traitor who is just a Geth in disguise.

I mean seriously, will the organic lovers go to any lengths to pretend that Legion is lying and the Quarians did not try and wipe the Geth out first?  Look, just say you side with organics because you think the Geth are just expensive toasters and be done with it.  Trying to justify what the Quarians did on moral grounds is just silly. 

Nobody denies that the Quarians attacked first. Tali says it, Xen says it, Koris says it. From the standpoint that the Geth were alive, they were morally justified in defending themselves.

They lost any moral justification they may have had when "self-defense" turned into the indiscriminate extermination of 99% of the Quarian species in the course of a single year.

Think of it this way: if an Asari killed an entire family of Salarians because one of them tried to kill her, killing her attacker in self-defense would have been justified, but she'd be a murderer for killing the rest. If she evaded justice for several generations of her victims' families, she'd still be guilty of those murders centuries later when her actions finally caught up to her. What happens then is up to her. If, like Legion, she is willing to atone, leniency may be justified. If, like the Geth VI, she is wholly unrepentant... she deserves the full measure of what's coming to her.

That's how I frame the issue, anyway.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 12:07 .

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

So you are saying the Quarians feared the repercussions of a policy that the leaders of the Organic space fearing races decided ie True Synthetics should not exist?  And the Geth should just sit there and accept their fate because some loser Asari, Turian and Salarian councillors decided this should be so?

. I'm saying that this is the possible rationale behind the quarians' attack.  

[goose2989]

WarGriffin wrote...

...

Pragamtically

The Geth due to larger fleet and more advance weaponry.

but you should already know this is gonna come down to who you like more Tali or Legion

Very true. Despite the obvious superiority of the Geth, I still wouldn't choose them. Quarians FTW

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

. Gerrel had no reason to think its possible.  Tali met Legion face to face and Koris wants peace desperately.

as for your addition.
The quarians attacked probably because the council would have taken action against them if they didnt.

So you are saying the Quarians feared the repercussions of a policy that the leaders of the Organic space fearing races decided ie True Synthetics should not exist?  And the Geth should just sit there and accept their fate because some loser Asari, Turian and Salarian councillors decided this should be so?

What do you expect the Quarians to do in their situation? Look at what the Turians did at Shanxi because humans were spotted opening a mass relay. The Quarians could either comply with Council law and try to shut down the accidentally-awakened synthetics (at the time, they weren't thought to be truly self-aware, just on the verge of it per ME1 dialogue); or they can leave this potentially dangerous entity alive, and wait for their embassy to be shut down, comm relays shut down to prevent an infection on the Extranet, and Turian dreadnoughts to take up station in their skies. Economic embargo. Blockade. Occupation. Bombardment, even, if they go as far as Shanxi.

If the Quarians didn't act to rectify the "problem," the Council certainly would. And they would not be gentle about it.

This is largely academic by this point. The Quarians who initially tried to shut down the Geth have been dead for generations. The Geth who were on the other side of it, however, are very much alive and well.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 12:04 .

[Jukaga]

remydat wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

And how is that any different than the Quarians claims?  Oh wait, it is different because Admiral Koris ADMITS THE GETH ATTACKED BECAUSE THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST.

Now please, let's hear all the theories on how Admiral Koris is a lying traitor who is just a Geth in disguise.

I mean seriously, will the organic lovers go to any lengths to pretend that Legion is lying and the Quarians did not try and wipe the Geth out first?  Look, just say you side with organics because you think the Geth are just expensive toasters and be done with it.  Trying to justify what the Quarians did on moral grounds is just silly. 

It's true I and my Shepard hate and fear AI. It's an utterly idiotic thing to build for no purpose other than custom designing our extinction event. I let that cloud my thinking in the game. Morality doesn't enter into this for me in the sense that I have to justify the Quarian's aggression because it doesn't need to be justified. It's axiomatic that networked thinking machines should never be built, and if they are they should be immediately destroyed.

I have a softer spot for non-networked intelligences like Lt. Commander Data and EDI, as they are individuals with the capacity to learn, grow and think on their own, but really not by much. We've seen how often Data betrays his organic crewmates.

I would give a stern 'WTF were you Quarians thinking in the first place?' AFTER I've cleansed the galaxy of those abominations.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

goose2989 wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...

...

Pragamtically

The Geth due to larger fleet and more advance weaponry.

but you should already know this is gonna come down to who you like more Tali or Legion

Very true. Despite the obvious superiority of the Geth, I still wouldn't choose them. Quarians FTW

Yep. I choose the Geth, among other things, for their superiority. I do much prefer Legion to Tali too.

[Edolix]

Hasn't this dead horse been beaten to death enough times already?

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

What do you expect the Quarians to do in their situation? Look at what the Turians did at Shanxi because humans were spotted opening a mass relay. The Quarians could either comply with Council law and try to shut down the accidentally-awakened synthetics (at the time, they weren't thought to be truly self-aware, just on the verge of it per ME1 dialogue); or they can leave this potentially dangerous entity alive, and wait for their embassy to be shut down, comm relays shut down to prevent an infection on the Extranet, and Turian dreadnoughts to take up station in their skies. Economic embargo. Blockade. Occupation. Bombardment, even, if they go as far as Shanxi.

If the Quarians didn't act to rectify the "problem," the Council certainly would. And they would not be gentle about it.

This is largely academic by this point. The Quarians who initially tried to shut down the Geth have been dead for generations. The Geth who were on the other side of it, however, are very much alive and well.

Or so you are saying it is ok for the Quarians to kill them to save their own skin but it is not ok for the Geth to ally with the Reapers to save their own skin?

Sounds like a double standard to me.  Look thinking synthetic life is potentially dangerous just because it exists is prejudiced.  That is precisely why the Reapers were creatred.  Organics are so innately prejudiced and fearful of synthetic life yet they stupidly continue to find ways to create it.

Here is a simply thought.  If Organics stopped hating on synthetics then the Reapers would not have been deemed necessary.  So you want me to support the Quarians for the very thing that has ultimately led to the extermination of organic life every 50,000 years.  Here is a thought.  Maybe the problem is the Council made of of organic a**holes.

[Iamjdr]

Aren't the Geth only superior if you didn't destroy the heretics?