4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

@remydat
Only problem with that theory is that the reaper predate the council by millions of years so I doubt it's the councils fault.

[andy6915]

Check page 30, Rem.

[goose2989]

Iamjdr wrote...

Aren't the Geth only superior if you didn't destroy the heretics?

Technically, yes; the Quarians have a higher war asset count if the heretics were destroyed. But this argument seems to consider more than the in-game number. Considering the ability of the Geth to fight much more efficiently on the ground, they would likely be the logical choice. 

[remydat]

Jukaga wrote...

remydat wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

And how is that any different than the Quarians claims?  Oh wait, it is different because Admiral Koris ADMITS THE GETH ATTACKED BECAUSE THE QUARIANS ATTACKED FIRST.

Now please, let's hear all the theories on how Admiral Koris is a lying traitor who is just a Geth in disguise.

I mean seriously, will the organic lovers go to any lengths to pretend that Legion is lying and the Quarians did not try and wipe the Geth out first?  Look, just say you side with organics because you think the Geth are just expensive toasters and be done with it.  Trying to justify what the Quarians did on moral grounds is just silly. 

It's true I and my Shepard hate and fear AI. It's an utterly idiotic thing to build for no purpose other than custom designing our extinction event. I let that cloud my thinking in the game. Morality doesn't enter into this for me in the sense that I have to justify the Quarian's aggression because it doesn't need to be justified. It's axiomatic that networked thinking machines should never be built, and if they are they should be immediately destroyed.

I have a softer spot for non-networked intelligences like Lt. Commander Data and EDI, as they are individuals with the capacity to learn, grow and think on their own, but really not by much. We've seen how often Data betrays his organic crewmates.

I would give a stern 'WTF were you Quarians thinking in the first place?' AFTER I've cleansed the galaxy of those abominations.

That's fine, you are prejudiced against synthetics but at least you admit it, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 19 mars 2013 - 12:18 .

[ghost9191]

Iamjdr wrote...

Aren't the Geth only superior if you didn't destroy the heretics?

yes. and if you destroy then the qurians have greater numbers and such

goose beat me to it <_<

Modifié par ghost9191, 19 mars 2013 - 12:19 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

What do you expect the Quarians to do in their situation? Look at what the Turians did at Shanxi because humans were spotted opening a mass relay. The Quarians could either comply with Council law and try to shut down the accidentally-awakened synthetics (at the time, they weren't thought to be truly self-aware, just on the verge of it per ME1 dialogue); or they can leave this potentially dangerous entity alive, and wait for their embassy to be shut down, comm relays shut down to prevent an infection on the Extranet, and Turian dreadnoughts to take up station in their skies. Economic embargo. Blockade. Occupation. Bombardment, even, if they go as far as Shanxi.

If the Quarians didn't act to rectify the "problem," the Council certainly would. And they would not be gentle about it.

This is largely academic by this point. The Quarians who initially tried to shut down the Geth have been dead for generations. The Geth who were on the other side of it, however, are very much alive and well.

Or so you are saying it is ok for the Quarians to kill them to save their own skin but it is not ok for the Geth to ally with the Reapers to save their own skin?

Sounds like a double standard to me.  Look thinking synthetic life is potentially dangerous just because it exists is prejudiced.  That is precisely why the Reapers were creatred.  Organics are so innately prejudiced and fearful of synthetic life yet they stupidly continue to find ways to create it.

Here is a simply thought.  If Organics stopped hating on synthetics then the Reapers would not have been deemed necessary.  So you want me to support the Quarians for the very thing that has ultimately led to the extermination of organic life every 50,000 years.  Here is a thought.  Maybe the problem is the Council made of of organic a**holes.

First off, as I stated, the Geth weren't thought to be truly self-aware when the shutdown order went out. The Geth had advanced further than the Quarian government anticipated. I never said it was right or wrong. I agree the assessment is bull****, but regardless, it's the law. That's the sword of Damocles they have hanging over their head. I simply asked you to consider it from their perspective, and ask yourself what exactly the Quarians were supposed to do.

And no, it's not the same. The Quarian decision (under duress) to attack the Geth had the potential to screw over the Geth. The Geth decision (also under duress) to side with the Reapers had the potential to screw over every other species in the galaxy.

[Iamjdr]

@Goose2989
I think the ingame proof of the quarians stomping the Geth with out the reapers or there upgrades is enough for me to know who is stronger.

[silverexile17s]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they need Rannoch

No, they don't.  That's the thing.  They don't actually need Rannoch.

They only "need" Rannoch if they're going to live without their suits.  They could have colonized any number of other worlds, provided they were willing to remain in their suits.

. It also has to do with Rannoch's ecology.  They have evolved to become symbiotic with Rannoch's plant life

And the lack of it has made them unable to survive without suits.

But they're still able to colonize other worlds. They may need their suits, but it's better than nothing, or wasting your ships on the Geth.

They tried.
But finding a  world, that's (a) in the "shirt-sleeves" habitable temperature zone, ( has atmosphere comprised of breathable oxygen, © has tolirable gravity levels, (d) has atmosphereic particals that are clean and don't kill,(e) has food sources that don't have to be reduced to sterlilized paste to safetly eat, (f) has enough untapped resources to supply their fleet,  (g) supports dextro-based life, and (h) has the same insect-free symbiotic ecology, is much harder then you think. How many worlds do you think fit all the above criteria? The turians have all the worlds that even come close, and the last time they tried colonizing a world (Ekuna), the Council threatened them with bombardment if the didn't vacate it.

Besides, as the geth are on the "At War" list of the Council, they figure it isn't wasting ships if your target is a supposed ally of the Reapers.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 12:25 .

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

Who said anything about legalities? I didn't. This is about ethics and morals. I don't give a damn about whether Collectors are legally accountable. Husks aren't either. Nor are Brutes. Or banshees. Or indeed, any Reaper tool. They're all evil yet mindless. Every damn one.

Except they could have stopped the heretics before they even tried to go to Sovereign. The moment heretics told the other Geth "well I'm going to go join Reapers now and slaughter as many organics as I can" the Geth should have responded with "no, we're already hated enough, if you try to do that we'll stop you... With force if necessary". They could have stopped them even before it got that far. But they didn't. Indeed they "understood the heretics desire to leave (and join Reapers and attempt genocide on organics)".

The heretics work with the Reapers, you say the Reapers ARE a threat to the Geth... Ergo, the heretics are a threat to the Geth. The fact that they've been spying on Geth patrol routes and made a virus to brainwash the rest is proof of that. So actually, the heretics ARE "a threat to the Geth or their allies".


Seriously, it's like logic is alien to you.

I did.  You said they were mindless and evil.  I explained where they can't be both legally and I would argue ethically you can't call someone evil when they have no knowledge of good or evil.  As I said, if you have your own ideas of morality then so be it.  You are entitled to have them so there is no point really in debating them.

We don't know if Sovereign is aware of what is going on and would have intervened if the Consensus tried to stop the Heretics.  Further why should the Geth stick their necks out for organics who don't think the Geth have a right to exist?  The Heretics are not an immediate threat to the Geth.  They are an immediate threat to a group that thinks the Geth have no right to exist.  A group that had laws banning the existence of geth before they were even created.  No smart general is going to risk deaths fighting a war he doesn't have to fight at the moment just to save people who wish his people were never created.  It defies logic synethetic or organic.

[nokori3byo]

On my first (totally blind) playthrough of ME3, I allowed Legion to upload the code which pretty much means I sided with the geth. Given that the game repeatedly tells you that they are in fact sentient, I think it makes sense to defend the geth's right to exist in the face of aggression.

Mighty glad I got to take a third option, however...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's still a much better option to pick up both and then sacrifice the flashlights to destroy the robocuttlefish.

Everybody wins...except for the flashlights and they still get remembered as heroes.

[andy6915]

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

First off, as I stated, the Geth weren't thought to be truly self-aware when the shutdown order went out. The Geth had advanced further than the Quarian government anticipated. I never said it was right or wrong. I agree the assessment is bull****, but regardless, it's the law. That's the sword of Damocles they have hanging over their head. I simply asked you to consider it from their perspective, and ask yourself what exactly the Quarians were supposed to do.

And no, it's not the same. The Quarian decision (under duress) to attack the Geth had the potential to screw over the Geth. The Geth decision (also under duress) to side with the Reapers had the potential to screw over every other species in the galaxy.

I have considered it from the Quarian perspective and I find their position lacking.  Quarians murdered Quarians because some Quarians did think the Geth were self aware.  A civilized people discuss disagreements, they don't wantonly slaughter the other side as a means to get people to follow them.  Further, the point is the Geth consider themselves self aware.  Once you cross the bridge where the AI considers itself self-aware then sorry you no longer have the right to arbitrarily decide to kill it.  You man up and deal with the consequences like an adult.  What sort of lesson is that, oh you make a mistake just kill it?

If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

If Organics refuse to stand up to this morally bankrupt systemthe why should the Geth care when that morally bankrupt system deems them unworthy of life?  You keep acting like the Geth or any species should value the lives of people whose policy is you are a mistake and should die.  Sorry, if every other species hated my race and I had to choose between my race and those other species, I choose my race.  Just like those morally bankrupt bastards would do the same.  You think the Asari, Turians, Salarians or anyone else would sacrifice their entire race to save other races who thought they had no right to live.  Bull.

[Bleachrude]

remydat wrote...


If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

.

Using the krogans as an example is a horrendously bad example.

1. Krogans, when encountered by the salarians, were NOT cavemen. They had mastered atomic power and blown their world to hell...

2. The salarians actually worked on repairing the atmosphere of Tuchanka.

3. Given that the rachni were killing everything, what makes you think that the rachni wouldn't have attacked Tuchanka?

4. in the aftermath, the krogans were treated like BIG DAMN HEROES (which they were) by the citadel species...they got not only the former rachni worlds but also several garden worlds so they were not treated like *cannon fodder*

I honestly don't see how the council at the time did anything wrond with the krogan other than not realizing that the krogans were not mature enough to handle peace...

[goose2989]

ghost9191 wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Aren't the Geth only superior if you didn't destroy the heretics?

yes. and if you destroy then the qurians have greater numbers and such

goose beat me to it <_<

Ha haaa! 

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

First off, as I stated, the Geth weren't thought to be truly self-aware when the shutdown order went out. The Geth had advanced further than the Quarian government anticipated. I never said it was right or wrong. I agree the assessment is bull****, but regardless, it's the law. That's the sword of Damocles they have hanging over their head. I simply asked you to consider it from their perspective, and ask yourself what exactly the Quarians were supposed to do.

And no, it's not the same. The Quarian decision (under duress) to attack the Geth had the potential to screw over the Geth. The Geth decision (also under duress) to side with the Reapers had the potential to screw over every other species in the galaxy.

I have considered it from the Quarian perspective and I find their position lacking.  Quarians murdered Quarians because some Quarians did think the Geth were self aware.  A civilized people discuss disagreements, they don't wantonly slaughter the other side as a means to get people to follow them.  Further, the point is the Geth consider themselves self aware.  Once you cross the bridge where the AI considers itself self-aware then sorry you no longer have the right to arbitrarily decide to kill it.  You man up and deal with the consequences like an adult.  What sort of lesson is that, oh you make a mistake just kill it?

If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

If Organics refuse to stand up to this morally bankrupt systemthe why should the Geth care when that morally bankrupt system deems them unworthy of life?  You keep acting like the Geth or any species should value the lives of people whose policy is you are a mistake and should die.  Sorry, if every other species hated my race and I had to choose between my race and those other species, I choose my race.  Just like those morally bankrupt bastards would do the same.  You think the Asari, Turians, Salarians or anyone else would sacrifice their entire race to save other races who thought they had no right to live.  Bull.

I agree the Council is bankrupt. At the time of the Morning War, the Quarians are in no position to do anything about it. Either try to shut down the Geth (who they don't believe to be truly self-aware yet), or wait for the Council to come and do the same, with less regard for the safety of your citizens. What do?

Also, giving the benefit of the doubt that what we're shown in the Consensus is not outright fabrication, what we see is a single casualty. Even Legion doesn't claim the Quarians killed every Geth sympathizer. He says they were "outnumbered." The Geth VI, notably, makes no distinction between sympathizer and aggressor, and is quick to dismiss the topic when Shepard brings it up. The notion that the Quarians killed off the sympathizers is an invention of these boards. An assertion which can be neither proven nor disproven. The authenticity of the source is questionable, and the presenter has A) complete control over what to show you, a penchant for lies of omission, and C) a vested interest in getting your sympathy. I'm not saying it's definitively false. I'm saying that, as with Quarian testimony, it should not be blindly accepted as the complete and impartial truth.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 01:04 .

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

I don't think a gun is good or evil.  It is just a gun.  The Collectors are living weapons.  

Really what responsibility does the Council have one of the races under it attempting to kill the Geth?  Oh right the Council actually agrees with the Quarians because they have decreed synthetic life should not exist.  Again, why the Geth should care about organics is lost on me.  The Council and every organic race thinks the Geth have no right to live.  They decided the Geth have no right to live before the Geth were even created. 

My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

I don't think a gun is good or evil.  It is just a gun.  The Collectors are living weapons.  

Really what responsibility does the Council have one of the races under it attempting to kill the Geth?  Oh right the Council actually agrees with the Quarians because they have decreed synthetic life should not exist.  Again, why the Geth should care about organics is lost on me.  The Council and every organic race thinks the Geth have no right to live.  They decided the Geth have no right to live before the Geth were even created. 

My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

I'm starting to tire of this discussion, but I'll respond to this by directing you to what I said on the last page, as it appears to have been overlooked.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

From the standpoint that the Geth were alive, they were initially morally justified in defending themselves.

They lost any moral justification they may have had when "self-defense" turned into the indiscriminate extermination of 99% of the Quarian species in the course of a single year.

Think of it this way: if an Asari killed an entire family of Salarians because one of them tried to kill her, killing her attacker in self-defense would have been justified, but she'd be a murderer for killing the rest. If she evaded justice for several generations of her victims' families, she'd still be guilty of those murders centuries later when her actions finally caught up to her. What happens then is up to her. If, like Legion, she is willing to atone, leniency may be justified. If, like the Geth VI, she is wholly unrepentant... she deserves the full measure of what's coming to her.

That's how I frame the issue, anyway.

The above analogy completely ignores the years of violent isolationism, permission of the Heretic rampage, and siding with the enemy of the entire galaxy for a temporary stay of execution.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 01:06 .

[Bleachrude]

remydat wrote...


My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

Except that whenever the organic try to talk to you, you simply blow them out of the sky thus there can be no talk about accepting organics/synthetics since one side doesn't want to talk.

There's also the fact that by not doing anything, the true geth are implicitly agreeing with the reapers and heretics that organic life needs to be extinguished.

[remydat]

Bleachrude wrote...

remydat wrote...


If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

.

Using the krogans as an example is a horrendously bad example.

1. Krogans, when encountered by the salarians, were NOT cavemen. They had mastered atomic power and blown their world to hell...

2. The salarians actually worked on repairing the atmosphere of Tuchanka.

3. Given that the rachni were killing everything, what makes you think that the rachni wouldn't have attacked Tuchanka?

4. in the aftermath, the krogans were treated like BIG DAMN HEROES (which they were) by the citadel species...they got not only the former rachni worlds but also several garden worlds so they were not treated like *cannon fodder*

I honestly don't see how the council at the time did anything wrond with the krogan other than not realizing that the krogans were not mature enough to handle peace...

I think you missed my point.  I was using the term cave men figuratively ie their thinking was backwards as proven by the fact that they destroyed their own planet.  Giving people who destroyed their own planet and in the 2000 years since had still not learned to curb their violent tendencies more weapons is a decision made out of desperation that you know is not really a good idea.  You simply have little choice.  Kind of like the Geth siding with the Reapers when they faced extinction at the hands of the Quarians.  They were desperate.  The only difference is the Salarians did have an entire galaxy that thought they should die so they were able to claim their self interest was also the Galaxies.  But if you told the Salarians at that time that uplifting the Krogan would result in all other races dying but them while not doing so would result in the Rachni eventually being defeated but Salarians dying in the process, what decision do you think they make.  You are delusion if you think they choose the option that results in their species dying.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's a joke, right? If anything, no race, save the krogan, has demonstrated more selfishness then the geth.
They stay behind the Veil as the Heretics brun the Attaican Traverse and Skyllian Verge, and do nothing until two years later, when it affects them.
They stay behind the Veil while Earth and Palaven burn, not involved in the war till Right before Priority: Tuchanka, where the quarians launch their attack.
They let the entire galaxy hate them for 300 years, killing anything that came into the Veil, even unarmed peace envoyes, and did nothing to change public opinion of them.

And lies of omission are Legion's specialty in ME3. Legion lies by omission redarding the reason he helped you in the Geth Server, not telling Shepard that he intended to use the Commander as a diversion to recrute more geth. Legion again lies by omission regarding the fact that he stole the Reaper Upgrade Code for himself.
And WRONG. Legion spicifically says that all the programs that supposedly died were actually saved, transferred into the Geth Primes. He is NOT any more trustworthy then all those you talked about above.

And Admiral Gerrel was placing his people's survival at the highest priority. The entire reason they attack is so they can survive the Reapers, because they are little to no help to anyone unless they suddenly become self-sufficant. That's impossible without a world of their own, and Rannoch is the only one that has everything they need, and and atmosphere and crops that won't kill them.
And if you even try to bring the Geth Dreadnought into this, remember that if your entire race hangs in the balance of a choice you are making right now, any lifelong military man worth his rank will put the safety of his people over the safety of a single alien.

And if you do nothing in ME2, Tali allows herself to be exiled from the fleet, never to return under normal curcumstances, for the sake of preserving the fleet's stabilaty. Legion is no more a Patriot then Tali is.
Another example is Mordin or Padok Wiks dying to save the krogan, even though there is the possibilaty that it will doom the Salarians, as the resurgant krogan could want revenge. Shepard killed 300,000 batarians to stop the Reaper's arrival six months beofre in ME2.

Expecting people who you have laws prohibiting their existence and who you tried to exterminate to help you when you are in trouble is ridiculous.  The Quarians are allies but they decided it was more important to kill Geth than it was to help humans and Turians.  In fact, none of the races wanted to help each other until Shepard made them do it.  They would have happily let each other burn if it meant it allowed them more time to prepare for the Reapers.  

So where is your disdain for all these allies who didn't come to help?  The Geth being long time military men as you called Gherel know it is stupid to risk your life for an enemey who would destroy you if they could.  You want the Geth to do something that you are ok with Gherel not doing.  Bull.

And if self-sufficiency was so important to Admiral Gherel maybe the Quarians should have settled a new world a long time ago.  This is illogical.  If they could magically grow food and survive on metal spaceships for 300 years, it is illogical to pretend like there were no other planets they could have settled.  They refused too.

Also, please prove to me that these peace envoys were unarmed?  Did the novel explicitly say they were unarmed or are you assuming that because I would think most ships are armed outside of pure civilian ships.

The Geth were hated for merely existing.  That is it.  Their existence was banned and attempts were made to exterminate them.  If they want to not involve themselves with the prejudiced a**holes that created laws banning them that is their right.  This would be like saying it is up to the black person to force the KKK to like them.  Or for Jews to force the ****'s to like them.  No it isn't.  It is up to the a**hole prejudiced person to stop being an a**hole prejudiced person.

Was the Dalatross remorsefull for being a manipulative douche?  Everyone lies especially when the lives of their people are at stake.  The difference is Legion still felt ashamed for lying while these other leaders were not.

You mean like the Council did with the Alliance regarding Cerberus?
The Alliance didn't agree with Cerberus, but still did something about stopping them. Cerberus didn't offer help to the Council for those same reasons as the geth (lack of trust, belief they would never be believed), and turned to Reaper tech to compensate for lack of allies. LOOK how that turned out. The geth didn't agree with the Heretics, but still gave their blessing? Do you NOT see the problem here? It's okay for the geth to ignore responcibilaty for their rouge factions? Your logic is at fault if you think it was right to ignore the effort and not even try. Just as Shepard said, "Nothing gets solved if you sit behind the Perceus Veil and let them hate you."
And AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. The quarians attacked so that they COULD be a help to turians and humans. They are completely incapable of being an asset in their current situation, as unlike the turians and humans, their entire population - civilians included - would be on the front line against the Reapers, which take nearly a dozen fully-armed and up-to-date warships to drop just one Sovergien-class. What do you think retrofitted, dilapidated tug ships overcroweded with civilians and theefore, completely unable to split up and manuver, can do that fully dedicated warships couldn't? And besides, the quarian's weren't supposed to be part of the front line. They were ment for logistics, troop transport, and resupplying war lines.
And the volus, hanar, elcor, turians, and humans were all working together from the get-go. The turians just weren't able to provide troop support till Palaven was aided, which required the krogan. The salarian government was selfish, but the military turned on them to support the war. (if you cure the genophage). The asari were the more selfish of the three, and came together after seeing that it was the only choice.

The ONLY groups I hold distain for is krogan clans for holding the war hostage, the asari, the isolationist geth, and the heads of the salarian government. All others were pretty cordial but still actively helping each-other.

And once AGAIN, you fail to think anything through. Gerrel knows that without finding a place for the civilians to go, the quarians are doomed. They have no where else to go, as no colony could support that many refugees that need such strict health needs. Not to mention have the dextro rations they need. Rannoch has everything, from breathable non-lethal atmosphere, to raw resources the geth didn't touch, to food they can safetly eat without being oversterilized into paste. Rannoch is the only world that is possible on, and it's held by a faction that is labled as "At War" by the Council, meaning that there is no law preventing them from attacking. In fact, all there is out there is encouragement to attack the supposedly Reaper-alinged geth, given that only a few, like the Normandy crew, know the truth about the Heretic split.
And again, that reputation is the geth's own fault. They never once gave any indication that they would be open to negotiation, or even that they cared about organics at all. A belief that was only compounded by the way they ruthlessly shot down every veseel that entered the veil, even unarmed diplomatic envoys.
So don't "Bull" me. The geth brought the hate of the galaxy on themselves by not doing anything to improve on that image. Humans were hated when they first came into the galaxy, given their penchant to run roughshod over competetors and their insatsible drive to advance. But they actively worked to improve their image. Humans did more to improve their image to the galaxy in 26 years then the geth did in 300.

And AGAIN, they TRIED.
Do you REALLY think a world that's (a) in the "shirt-sleeves" habitable temperature zone, (
has atmosphere comprised of breathable oxygen, © has tolirable
gravity levels, (d) has atmosphereic particals that are clean and don't
kill,(e) has
food sources that don't have to be reduced to sterlilized paste to
safetly eat, (f) has enough untapped resources to supply their fleet, 
(g) supports dextro-based life, and (h) has the same insect-free
symbiotic ecology, is easy?
They looked for 300 years and found nothing.  And the last time they tried to settle a world, Ekuna, the Council threatened them at gunpoint to leave it. So NO, they have no other options in this. And the entire point is that they CAN'T grow proper food. It's all synthesized, sterilized paste made from dextro-plant extracts. Hardly proper nutrition, especally since it's not the plants of Rannoch which held the symbiotic minerals and vitamans that they needed so desperately. So don't try blaiming the quarians for not having a world. Blame the damned Council.

So you didn't read the novel? It spicifically says that all ships, regardless of being armed or not, from traders to explorers to peace delegations, were all shot down instantly the moment they entered geth space, without even so much as a warning. No one, from civilian to military to government, survived. Only unmanned stealth probes have ever returned from geth space intact, and even then, the number of those are few.

And the geth were hated for how they overzelously broke the back of the quarian sociaty. They had the majority of the worlds by the final days of the war, so there was no need to attack Rannoch. But they still did. They even targeted insignifigant worlds, like Adas. A mining colony, with no military presance what-so-ever. And the geth slaughtered them in the push to take Rannoch.
And AGAIN, since there was no proof that the geth were actual living beings till after the attack, killing them was no more genocide then killing an army of LOKI mechs. No one knew they were already alive, so the attempt to wipe them out would NOT have been considered genocide in the least.
And they already WERE those same exact prejudeced people you hate so much. Look at the Geth V.I. placeholder for Legion. THAT is a representation of a classic Morning War geth - uncaring about any other race but themselves, and xenophobic to organic races in general, unwilling to trust anyone as an ally. THAT'S what the geth were for 300 years till Legion met Shepard, and what they remain as if Legion doesn't survive to make it back to them. They were JUST as prejudiced as what you claim the quarians were.
And talk to Tali in ME2 on the Aleri. Argue against the war, THEN swicth and ask why they didn't try to retake Rannoch already, and Tali will finally admit that the majority of quarians feel remorsefull for what they did to the geth in the war, and blame themselves for giving the geth such negitive views of organics with the treatment they had. However, like the geth, surviving has to take priority, and the only way the quarians can hope to survive, and lend aid to the war, is to retake Rannoch. The geth are still branded as Reaper allies, so they figure that the geth have been bad guys since Eden Prime. After all, that's what everyone else, save the Normandy crew, believe.

And DEAD WRONG. Just look at Primarch Victus. He displays clear remorse at being unable to tell Shepard about the turian bomb on Tuchanka, as it could completely comprimise the Hierarchy's bid to forge an Alliance with the krogan.
Do you even look at this stuff and think it through before you type it in? You are letting your prejudce for organics get the better of you.

[silverexile17s]

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.

Using chemical weapons, no less.

The proof?

Legion says that they geth are still cleaning up toxin damage from the warfare waged between them. What could leave toxin damage for over 300 years, in spite of a geth-wide cleanup?
Chemical weaponry is the only thing that makes sense.
And since the geth are synthetics, and as former laborors, likely designed to spcifically be able to handle said materials so that the quarians didn't need to, it's highly unlikely the chem weapons were used by the quarians.
The only thing that makes sense is if the geth used these weapons, as it would explain  the toxin damage, as well as how the cities and buildings are still intact (Haestrom ruins are in good shape despite being one of the first worlds lost in the war), and as well as how the geth were able to massicare so much of the quarian population so fast (the war lasted one year).

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 01:16 .

[Iamjdr]

This is the second time the Geth have helped the reapers. And The first time they didn't have the quarians at there doorstep, and they caught everyone unaware and almost took the citadel. You really think it would be a good idea to just leave the Geth alone while the reapers are invading. Especially when you get to rannoch and the is already a reaper there that has obviously been there for a while seeing as it had it's own underground base next to the Geths base.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.

Incorrect.  Laws existed banning AI before the creation of the Geth.  Further, the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth before they killed a single person. 

When you try and exterminate someone stronger than you and lose you can't cry.  Do you understand the concept of war.  The Quarians attacked.   At what point did a Quarian leader stop and think wow, maybe we should surrender since 50 MILLION OF US ARE DEAD.  Nope, those idiots kept fighting and kept getting killed.  Now if there is evidence the Quarians wanted to surrender and the Geth refused please share it and I will consider it.  Until then, 99% of them died because their leaders were idiots.  They should have been brought up on charges of treason because their fanatical war destroyed their own people.

Wrong. According to the books (I quoted the relevant portion in its entirety several pages back), the Quarians had "neither the strength nor the numbers" to stand against the Geth. The Geth committed a genocide of their own, killing everyone on Rannoch who couldn't secure passage off-world. The Geth VI will do so again, remorselessly, if given half a chance.

Exactally, And we know from the testiment of Erynia in ME2 on Illium that it wasn't just quarians that the geth killed. Erynia's bondmate, another asari, was on Rannoch when the geth atatcked, and was killed by the geth in their assault. Meaning that any other aliens on Rannoch were wiped out as well.
Like I've said before, the geth stopped caring about civilian casualties after they went into survival mindset, which is why the quarian protesters and their beliefs were buried and forgotten in the quarian history. It was because any and all sympathy for them dried up after the geth stopped discriminating between civilian and soldier, especally when alien civilians of other species weren't even spared from the crosshairs either.
Then came the gassing using chemical weapons, which left environmental damage that the geth are still cleaning up 300 years later. That certinly bread no sympathy for the geth plight.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 01:24 .

[remydat]

Bleachrude wrote...

remydat wrote...


My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

Except that whenever the organic try to talk to you, you simply blow them out of the sky thus there can be no talk about accepting organics/synthetics since one side doesn't want to talk.

There's also the fact that by not doing anything, the true geth are implicitly agreeing with the reapers and heretics that organic life needs to be extinguished.

What part of my right to exist is not negotiable did you not understand?  The Geth have no obligation to listen to prejudiced morally bankrupt a**holes who think they can come talk to them while their prejudiced morally bankrupt laws that deny the Geth's right to exist are still on the books.

You want to talk then you send a message apologizing for the Quarian aggression and saying you abolished the regulations that made it happen.  These guys travel at FTL so if you are telling me they can't communicate without sending ships with living people through the Veil then stay away. 

Let's leave it at this.  The Geth should have warned the first ship.  Those deaths are on them.  Any subsequent ships sent and destroyed is on the stupid organics that didn't get the message the first time.  Why do organics think synthetics should talk just because they decide they want to.  Leave people alone especially when you have laws that say they are unworthy of life.