4712 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Bleachrude-

"There's also the fact that by not doing anything, the true geth are implicitly agreeing with the reapers and heretics that organic life needs to be extinguished."

EXACTLY my point. Either they simply didn't care about heretics killing organics and considered it not their problem, or they actually agreed and rooted for them but didn't actually join them. Either way doesn't reflect well on the Geth.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Orrrr you could just get both and throw the brobots to the wolves cuttlefish.

I'd call that a win.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@remydat. The geth are hated for murdering 99% of a species indiscriminately.

Using chemical weapons, no less.

The proof?

Legion says that they geth are still cleaning up toxin damage from the warfare waged between them. What could leave toxin damage for over 300 years, in spite of a geth-wide cleanup?
Chemical weaponry is the only thing that makes sense.
And since the geth are synthetics, and as former laborors, likely designed to spcifically be able to handle said materials so that the quarians didn't need to, it's highly unlikely the chem weapons were used by the quarians.
The only thing that makes sense is if the geth used these weapons, as it would explain  the toxin damage, as well as how the cities and buildings are still intact (Haestrom ruins are in good shape despite being one of the first worlds lost in the war), and as well as how the geth were able to massicare so much of the quarian population so fast (the war lasted one year).

Maybe the Quarians should have explained concepts of morality to the geth before trying to exterminate them.  Do you really think a newly sentient race understands that chemical weapons are frowned upon in organic war? That is an entirely organic concept that even real life humans don't always adhere too.  I must have missed where the Quarians taught the Geth organic rules of warfare.

Modifié par remydat, 19 mars 2013 - 01:24 .

[Bleachrude]

remydat wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

remydat wrote...


If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

.

Using the krogans as an example is a horrendously bad example.

1. Krogans, when encountered by the salarians, were NOT cavemen. They had mastered atomic power and blown their world to hell...

2. The salarians actually worked on repairing the atmosphere of Tuchanka.

3. Given that the rachni were killing everything, what makes you think that the rachni wouldn't have attacked Tuchanka?

4. in the aftermath, the krogans were treated like BIG DAMN HEROES (which they were) by the citadel species...they got not only the former rachni worlds but also several garden worlds so they were not treated like *cannon fodder*

I honestly don't see how the council at the time did anything wrond with the krogan other than not realizing that the krogans were not mature enough to handle peace...

I think you missed my point.  I was using the term cave men figuratively ie their thinking was backwards as proven by the fact that they destroyed their own planet.  Giving people who destroyed their own planet and in the 2000 years since had still not learned to curb their violent tendencies more weapons is a decision made out of desperation that you know is not really a good idea. .

What makes you think that at the time of the salarians meeting the krogans that the krogans were still "RARGH"? Remember, the salarians were able to talk to the krogans and indeed, the krogans were not violent in that the shroud was built

We're not talking the Yagh here who seem to have only 1 though. Kill everything.

The salarians could've quite rightly believed that the krogans had learned their lesson and indeed, the citadel DLC actually confirms that even at the time, the salarians didn't want to actually USE the genophage...they just wanted the krogans to stop attacking them...

[remydat]

Bleachrude wrote...

remydat wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

remydat wrote...


If the Council could not be reasoned with then the Council is morally bankrupt.  Judging by all the resistene they gave Shepard and the fact that the Asari hid their Prothean Beacon on Thessia, the Turians planted a bomb on Tuchanka, and the Salarians uplifted cave men and gave them weapons of mass destruction so they could be cannon fodder and then neutered them when those cave men acted like cave men, it is pretty clear to me the Council is in fact morally bankrupt.  

.

Using the krogans as an example is a horrendously bad example.

1. Krogans, when encountered by the salarians, were NOT cavemen. They had mastered atomic power and blown their world to hell...

2. The salarians actually worked on repairing the atmosphere of Tuchanka.

3. Given that the rachni were killing everything, what makes you think that the rachni wouldn't have attacked Tuchanka?

4. in the aftermath, the krogans were treated like BIG DAMN HEROES (which they were) by the citadel species...they got not only the former rachni worlds but also several garden worlds so they were not treated like *cannon fodder*

I honestly don't see how the council at the time did anything wrond with the krogan other than not realizing that the krogans were not mature enough to handle peace...

I think you missed my point.  I was using the term cave men figuratively ie their thinking was backwards as proven by the fact that they destroyed their own planet.  Giving people who destroyed their own planet and in the 2000 years since had still not learned to curb their violent tendencies more weapons is a decision made out of desperation that you know is not really a good idea. .

What makes you think that at the time of the salarians meeting the krogans that the krogans were still "RARGH"? Remember, the salarians were able to talk to the krogans and indeed, the krogans were not violent in that the shroud was built

We're not talking the Yagh here who seem to have only 1 though. Kill everything.

The salarians could've quite rightly believed that the krogans had learned their lesson and indeed, the citadel DLC actually confirms that even at the time, the salarians didn't want to actually USE the genophage...they just wanted the krogans to stop attacking them...

As I understand it the Krogans had mastered atomic weapons destroyed their planet and 2000 years later were still stuck in a post apocalyptic hell.  If they couldn't fix things after 2000 years and still where killing each other for stupid reasons they were not ready.

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

Bleachrude-

"There's also the fact that by not doing anything, the true geth are implicitly agreeing with the reapers and heretics that organic life needs to be extinguished."

EXACTLY my point. Either they simply didn't care about heretics killing organics and considered it not their problem, or they actually agreed and rooted for them but didn't actually join them. Either way doesn't reflect well on the Geth.

Or organic life didn't care about them so they didn't care about organic life.  Remind me when the Council sent troops to stop the Quarians from killing the Geth?  Why do people insist on the Geth caring about organics who wish they never existed?

[silverexile17s]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't know either. Do you think the average North Korean (not the one who lives in Pyongyang) wants war with America? No. They want food to survive. 

But when Kim Jong un's saber rattling finally turns to real fighting, they're going to have to suffer for it.

It's an unfortunate reality of war. It doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be, but it is.

But as for the Geth, do you suggest they do nothing? They really had no alternative. I already mentioned why they had no alternative.

The core issues with this conflict stem back to 300 years during the Morning War. That's the reality behind it.

. They had an alternative.  They could have reached out to the quarians.  They didnt.  The quarians were receptive to this, but it never came.

Really neither side had any alternative.  But I'm going to stick with the quarians.

Did they have a chance with the Quarians? I told Admiral Gerrel about it and he seemed to think that it was better to just kill them all. Really only Koris and Tali are open to the idea of peace. Even if Xen and Raan are too, Gerrel holds too much clout with the Heavy Fleet. I made an edit to my post btw. Added some stuff.

And I stick with the Geth.

They did have the chance. Tali presented the option, and had Legion in contact regularly through messaging. Only Koris thought it should be tried. Gerrel was unable to believe the geth would suddenly be peacefull after what happened in the Morning War, or that the geth would willingly give up Rannoch, otherwise they would have done so already.  Xen didn't even see the geth as living beings, thinking of them as robots with corrupted software. Raan didn't believe that any form of lasting peace could be possible with all the bad blood between the two sides.

Not long after that, Legion completely severed contact with Tali, as the geth were preparing to bunker up against the Reapers. No effort for peace was made after that, as Legion never again responded to Tali's messeges.

[remydat]

Attempting to develop artificial intelligence was one of the few things specifically banned in the Citadel Conventions. Developing purely synthetic life, whether cloned or manufactured, was considered a crime against the entire galaxy.

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence - such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge - would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn't merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position.

Three hundred years ago, long before humanity appeared on the galactic scene, the quarian species had created a race of synthetic servants to serve as an expandable and expendable labor source. The geth, as they were called, were not true AIs: their neural networks were developed in a way that was highly restrictive and self-limiting. Despite this precaution, the geth eventually turned on their quarian masters, validating all the dire warnings and predictions.

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

I don't think a gun is good or evil.  It is just a gun.  The Collectors are living weapons.  

Really what responsibility does the Council have one of the races under it attempting to kill the Geth?  Oh right the Council actually agrees with the Quarians because they have decreed synthetic life should not exist.  Again, why the Geth should care about organics is lost on me.  The Council and every organic race thinks the Geth have no right to live.  They decided the Geth have no right to live before the Geth were even created. 

My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

But that's WRONG about the Collectors. As shown in the ME3 multiplayer, the Collectors ARE alive, as after Leviathan severs them form Harbinger, the now freed Collectors, now calling themselves the "Awakened Collectors," reclaim their culture and all simoutaniously name themselves as Avatars of Vengance, swearing to make the Reapers pay for the destruction of their culture. They then proceed to join the Allies. They are playable characters for the adept class in Multiplayer.
Not sure how much of an impact that has on you, but there it is.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 01:36 .

[remydat]

The above is the passage. This passage is contradicted by later events. The part where it says the geth turned on their masters validating the dire warnings and predictions is complete bull. Admiral Koris admits that the Geth turned on their masters because their masters tried to kill them not because the Geth fulfilled the predictions. If the Quarians had never tried to kill them then there is no evidence to suggest the Geth would have fullfilled the predictions.

So as I said to people claiming this is canon, this is either the writer writing a biased account from the perpsective of organics or clearly the story changed because Admiral Koris not just Legion clearly disagrees with what is said here.  If it is the latter then nothing in this passage can be believed because it is clearly a biased account and if it is the latter then the canon obviously changed.  Later canon trumps earlier canon and the later canon is that the Quarians started the war not the Geth.

So unless someone can give me a reason why Admiral Koris is a liar that passage doesn't make any sense with the later story and relying on it is bull.

Modifié par remydat, 19 mars 2013 - 01:46 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

I don't think a gun is good or evil.  It is just a gun.  The Collectors are living weapons.  

Really what responsibility does the Council have one of the races under it attempting to kill the Geth?  Oh right the Council actually agrees with the Quarians because they have decreed synthetic life should not exist.  Again, why the Geth should care about organics is lost on me.  The Council and every organic race thinks the Geth have no right to live.  They decided the Geth have no right to live before the Geth were even created. 

My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

But that's WRONG about the Collectors. As shown in the ME3 multiplayer, the Collectors ARE alive, as after Leviathan severs them form Harbinger, the now freed Collectors, now calling themselves the "Awakened Collectors," reclaim their culture and all simoutaniously name themselves as Avatars of Vengance, swearing to make the Reapers pay for the destruction of their culture. They then proceed to join the Allies. They are playable characters for the adept class in Multiplayer.
Not sure how much of an impact that has on you, but there it is.

Which proves that their actions where the result of the reapers ie they are not evil.  If they were evil then free of Reaper control, they would continue to be evil.  They did not, they joined the allies.  Thus, when they were controlled by the Reapers they were nothing more than a gun ie they lacked free will and were merely a weapon or tool.  So all this does is support my point.  If a gun could become sentient and upon becoming sentient decided it would not kill anyone, was it evil?

[Iamjdr]

How would admiral koris know exactly what happened in a war that happened almost 250 years before he was born? That passage you linked is cannon seeing as it was written by drew k. The original lead writer for me1

[o Ventus]

Jukaga wrote...

Basically all you Geth lovers base your decision on the revelations while in the Geth consensus. From visual records presented from ONLY the Geth viewpoint and that were not even accurate representations of actual events. The Quarians were not helmeted at that time in history, yet they were in the recordings. Legion's lame excuse rang hollow to me and made no sense despite what Shepard quips back. For all we know that was all a manipulative fiction to play on your sympathies and decide in the Geths favor. But hey, it's not like Legion hasn't lied and held back information before, is it?

It's recycling time, these flashlights are burnt out.

This is absolutely propagan-tastic.

I must say, it's quite telling of your ability to hold an actual discussion, judging by your opening sentence.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

The above is the passage. This passage is contradicted by later events. The part where it says the geth turned on their masters validating the dire warnings and predictions is a complete bull. Admiral Koris admits that the Quarians turned on their masters because their master tried to kill them not because the Geth fulfilled the predictions. If the Quarians had never tried to kill them then there is no evidence to suggest the Geth would have fullfilled the predictions.

So as I said to people claiming this is cannon. This is either the writer writing the biased account from the perpsective of organics or clearly the story changed because Admiral Koris not just Legion clearly disagrees with what is said here. So from my perspective this passage proves nothing. I would have to believe Admiral Koris is a liar or the only logical way to make sense of this passage is that it is being told from an organic perspective and they have conveniently left out the fact that the Quarians started the war.

I notice you also bolded the "genocide" passage. Are you going to claim that never happened? It's corroborated by both sides.

"The Geth killed billions and drove my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."
~ Tali, ME1 elevator conversation

"The Quarian side of the story is common knowledge, but nobody knows the Geth side."
"It is largely the same."
~ Shepard and Legion, ME2 Normandy discussion

"We accept the Creators' hate. We did them great harm in the Morning War."
~ Legion, ME2 Normandy discussion

"The Rachni consumed Salarian colonies. The Quarians endured the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War."
~ From an ANN editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia


Please note also that the passage in the book never claims the Geth started the war. It says the Geth "turned on the Quarians." This is discussed in ME3 dialogue, post-Rannoch:

"The Quarians' historical error was not making the Geth enough like them. Units with networked intelligences will trend toward cooperation for mutual benefit, but units with central heuristics establishing an individual personality, such as myself, develop preferences. These preferences form attachments that keep my calculations from devaluing the worth of the lives aboard the Normandy."
"You're saying the Geth turned on the Quarians because they aren't individuals?"
~ EDI and Shepard, post-Rannoch

"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can assist Shepard-Commander's fight against the Old Machines... if the Creators no longer threaten us."
~ Geth VI, on the prospect of exterminating the Quarians, making no distinction between sympathizers and aggressors on the fleet

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 01:57 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

How would admiral koris know exactly what happened in a war that happened almost 250 years before he was born? That passage you linked is cannon seeing as it was written by drew k. The original lead writer for me1

Why would no Admiral correct him and say he is lying.  When he says that the Quarians tried to kill the Geth, no one denies it.  They simply don't see Geth as sentient so they don't care that the truth has been revealed.

Look there is no way around it.  Either Drew wrote the passage in his role as the writer ie it was suppose to be the objective truth in which case the writers who finished the story changed the history and this is no longer cannon just like the Dark Energy storyline was dropped.  In the comic book world it would be called a retcon.  Happens all the time because writers change a lot in comics

The only other option if you don't want to believe that the story changed is that Drew wrote the history according to organics and it contained bias because it was written from an organic point of view.

Either option makes this passage unreliable.  It either is no longer canon or it is a biased organic account of the conflict.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

How would admiral koris know exactly what happened in a war that happened almost 250 years before he was born? That passage you linked is cannon seeing as it was written by drew k. The original lead writer for me1

Why would no Admiral correct him and say he is lying.  When he says that the Quarians tried to kill the Geth, no one denies it.  They simply don't see Geth as sentient so they don't care that the truth has been revealed.

Look there is no way around it.  Either Drew wrote the passage in his role as the writer ie it was suppose to be the objective truth in which case the writers who finished the story changed the history and this is no longer cannon just like the Dark Energy storyline was dropped.  In the comic book world it would be called a retcon.  Happens all the time because writers change a lot in comics

The only other option if you don't want to believe that the story changed is that Drew wrote the history according to organics and it contained bias because it was written from an organic point of view.

Either option makes this passage unreliable.  It either is no longer canon or it is a biased organic account of the conflict.

Have you ever run into a Quarian who told you the Geth started the war? Tali tells you the Quarians started it. Xen tells you the Quarians started it. Koris tells you the Quarians started it. The codex tells you the Quarians started it. This isn't some grand revelation. We've known this since Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 02:01 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

How would admiral koris know exactly what happened in a war that happened almost 250 years before he was born? That passage you linked is cannon seeing as it was written by drew k. The original lead writer for me1

Why would no Admiral correct him and say he is lying.  When he says that the Quarians tried to kill the Geth, no one denies it.  They simply don't see Geth as sentient so they don't care that the truth has been revealed.

Look there is no way around it.  Either Drew wrote the passage in his role as the writer ie it was suppose to be the objective truth in which case the writers who finished the story changed the history and this is no longer cannon just like the Dark Energy storyline was dropped.  In the comic book world it would be called a retcon.  Happens all the time because writers change a lot in comics

The only other option if you don't want to believe that the story changed is that Drew wrote the history according to organics and it contained bias because it was written from an organic point of view.

Either option makes this passage unreliable.  It either is no longer canon or it is a biased organic account of the conflict.

Have you ever run into a Quarian who told you the Geth started the war? Tali tells you the Quarians started it. Xen tells you the Quarians started it. Koris tells you the Quarians started it. The codex tells you the Quarians started it. This isn't some grand revelation. We've known this since Mass Effect 1.

And yet this passage clearly ignores that fact.  If Legion can be accused of a lie of ommission, how is this passage any different.? If anyone read this without knowing the history they would think the evil machines caused the war.  So the passage is a lie of ommission which calls the entire passage into question.  That is the point.  If Drew was suppose to be writing a true account of what happened leaving out the fact the war was started by the Quarians makes no sense.

Modifié par remydat, 19 mars 2013 - 02:08 .

[Xilizhra]

"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can assist Shepard-Commander's fight against the Old Machines... if the Creators no longer threaten us."
~ Geth VI, on the prospect of exterminating the Quarians, making no distinction between sympathizers and aggressors on the fleet

Well, for all intents and purposes, it's not relevant. Evidently, there aren't any sympathizers who are manning the guns on all of the ships currently trying to exterminate the geth. If the admirals refuse to consider a ceasefire, there's really no other logical response from the geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

And yet this passage clearly ignores that fact.  If Legion can be accused fo a lie of ommission how is this passage any different.  If anyone read this without knowing the history they would think the evil machines caused the war.  So the passage is a lie of ommission which calls the entire passage into question.  That is the point.  If Drew was suppose to be writing a true account of what happened leaving out the fact the war was started by the Quarian makes no sense.

Read the quote-laden post above. If you're going to ignore any part of canon that clashes with your argument, this discussion serves no purpose.

[Iamjdr]

Can you link the quote koris says that retcons that passage?

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can assist Shepard-Commander's fight against the Old Machines... if the Creators no longer threaten us."
~ Geth VI, on the prospect of exterminating the Quarians, making no distinction between sympathizers and aggressors on the fleet

Well, for all intents and purposes, it's not relevant. Evidently, there aren't any sympathizers who are manning the guns on all of the ships currently trying to exterminate the geth. If the admirals refuse to consider a ceasefire, there's really no other logical response from the geth.

. You can sympathize with them, but if your survival depends on killing the enemy, the choice becomes rather clear cut

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can assist Shepard-Commander's fight against the Old Machines... if the Creators no longer threaten us."
~ Geth VI, on the prospect of exterminating the Quarians, making no distinction between sympathizers and aggressors on the fleet

Well, for all intents and purposes, it's not relevant. Evidently, there aren't any sympathizers who are manning the guns on all of the ships currently trying to exterminate the geth. If the admirals refuse to consider a ceasefire, there's really no other logical response from the geth.

It's relevant because this is the same attitude that guided the Geth's actions in the Morning War. The Quarians weren't on ships then. Indiscriminate slaughter was the Geth's entire playbook - hence the "toxins" the Geth are still cleaning up. The Quarians press the attack because they have every reason to expect the Geth to try to kill them all - and if you have the VI with you, they're absolutely right. They've never seen mercy from the Geth - according to the Geth themselves, not pursuing the fleeing stragglers was not an act of mercy. If it's actually communicated to the Quarians that the upload is taking place and that the Geth will let them live, an offer they never received before and had no reason to expect, they stand down.

They value survival more than revenge.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 mars 2013 - 02:13 .

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

And yet this passage clearly ignores that fact.  If Legion can be accused of a lie of ommission, how is this passage any different.? If anyone read this without knowing the history they would think the evil machines caused the war.  So the passage is a lie of ommission which calls the entire passage into question.  That is the point.  If Drew was suppose to be writing a true account of what happened leaving out the fact the war was started by the Quarians makes no sense.

So let me get this straight, it is now the fictional Quarian's fault that the real-life human Drew Karpyshyn didn't include one fact about the Morning War in a particular paragraph of his book.  And this therefor makes the Quarians liars?  A fact I might add that is fairly common knowledge and not denied by a single Quarian and outright stated in the codex.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I call things evil based on their actions. Collectors kidnapped people and liquified them... They're absolutely evil. Just because they're being made to do that by something else doesn't diminish that. If a blank slate like a mindless creature is controlled by an evil being, then those mindless beings are evil too.

Why should they stick their neck out? Because having a part of your nation go and slaughter and attempt genocide against everyone else not of your nation is something that is YOUR responsibility to handle. Period. Not to mention that they're only letting themselves get MORE hated by letting everyone else think heretics represent Geth as a whole, which could possibly have had an invasion happen to the Veil after the battle of the Citadel in retaliation for it. Geth aren't totally stupid, they would realize that too. Not that they actually gave a damn.

I don't think a gun is good or evil.  It is just a gun.  The Collectors are living weapons.  

Really what responsibility does the Council have one of the races under it attempting to kill the Geth?  Oh right the Council actually agrees with the Quarians because they have decreed synthetic life should not exist.  Again, why the Geth should care about organics is lost on me.  The Council and every organic race thinks the Geth have no right to live.  They decided the Geth have no right to live before the Geth were even created. 

My right to exist is non-negotiable.  Until you acknowledge that right, I don't care what happens to you.  I am sorry I don't go around concerning myself with what I can do for racists to accept me.   I don't have to prove my right to life or worth to anyone.  I have that right by virtue of being a sentient being.

But that's WRONG about the Collectors. As shown in the ME3 multiplayer, the Collectors ARE alive, as after Leviathan severs them form Harbinger, the now freed Collectors, now calling themselves the "Awakened Collectors," reclaim their culture and all simoutaniously name themselves as Avatars of Vengance, swearing to make the Reapers pay for the destruction of their culture. They then proceed to join the Allies. They are playable characters for the adept class in Multiplayer.
Not sure how much of an impact that has on you, but there it is.

Which proves that their actions where the result of the reapers ie they are not evil.  If they were evil then free of Reaper control, they would continue to be evil.  They did not, they joined the allies.  Thus, when they were controlled by the Reapers they were nothing more than a gun ie they lacked free will and were merely a weapon or tool.  So all this does is support my point.  If a gun could become sentient and upon becoming sentient decided it would not kill anyone, was it evil?

It's for revenge, though. Just because they have a common goal of stopping the Reapers is NO INDICATION of what they intend to do later.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

And yet this passage clearly ignores that fact.  If Legion can be accused fo a lie of ommission how is this passage any different.  If anyone read this without knowing the history they would think the evil machines caused the war.  So the passage is a lie of ommission which calls the entire passage into question.  That is the point.  If Drew was suppose to be writing a true account of what happened leaving out the fact the war was started by the Quarian makes no sense.

Read the quote-laden post above. If you're going to ignore any part of canon that clashes with your argument, this discussion serves no purpose.

What I am ignoring?  People tried to tell me this alleged passage was suppose to be Drew giving us an objective view of the history based on his role as storytelling.

So I will ask a simple question.  Please quote me a passage from the above that is favorable to the Geth?  You can't claim this is the true history of the conflict when nothing in the passage tells us the Geth side of the story.