4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Fair enough, Remy. This argument has grown far more heated than it ever needed to. I understand why the Geth did what they did in the Morning War, but that doesn't mean I forgive them for it. It goes back to the Asari/Salarian example from before. If they learned from it and demonstrated a willingness to atone, I'll make peace, but I have to metagame that the code won't make them go Rachni Breeder on us to even allow for that. I'm going very far out on a limb by trusting the Geth after the killings, the lies, the Reaper alliance, the reversal of their philosophy on Reaper tech.

At the dawn of the Morning War, the Geth's intellect and actions were more on the level of the Noverian Rachni. Organic standards couldn't be applied to them, but they were still an aimless threat who killed many, many innocent people. It was wrong that they were initially attacked. While I can sympathize with their situation, while I believe defense against direct aggression was justified, the indiscriminate, mindless, and total slaughter of the Quarian race which followed was not, and if put in that situation, the Quarians were within their rights to defend themselves from the Geth onslaught.

Centuries later, even the Geth VI has advanced to the point where more organic standards are applicable. Its reasoning has matured into that of a sociopath. They've persisted in the same behavior they displayed in the Morning War. They make no apologies for siding with the Reapers and give little indication that they would not do so again, express no remorse about the innocents they know they'll be killing, and insist on uploading code I don't trust at all for the express purpose of adding to their body count. I cannot allow this. Even though I understand its actions, I would never trust such an entity to watch my back in a galactic war of extermination.

Mix Legion's experiences into that cauldron, and you get a remorseful entity mindful of what it's doing, and what it's done. One which is still guilty of these crimes over the centuries, but is aware of them, and seeks atonement. That, I find worth saving - and despite my own misgivings about the code, the lies, et al - I do when I can.

There is nothing heated about it from my perspective.  We are passionately debating our ideas.  That is a good thing.  Heated would be me putting a bullet in your head for disagreeing with me like say the Quarians did to the Quarian protestors.  Sorry couldn't resist, lol.  Point is it's just the internet.

Organics have killed, lied, and changed their opinions as well.  Again, for me you either judge sentient species by the same measures or you don't.  Legion lied to protect his people.  I see no evidence the Salarian, Asari, Krogan, or Turian leaders would not have done the same in his position.  In fact, we know they lie to get their way so why I am sure they would lie to Shepard if they thought it was in the best interests of their race.

As to the sociopath comment.  The Geth don't know killing civilians during war is evil because they have no concept of civilians in their society and the Quarians keep having civilians fight in battle.  Do you honestly think they are aware those civilian ships are actually civilian ships when those civilian ships are shooting at them just like the military ones?  Likewise, how would they know that chemical warfare is bad when no one taught them that.  Observing rules of war is an entirely illogical concept.  The enemy seeks to kill you so why would you not use any means to kill them?  It took humans thousands of years to develop rules of war as previously we use to slaughter the enemy to the last man, butcher the children or sell them into slavery, and butcher the women probably after gang raping them.  

The reason Legion is important is that he went beyond the Veil and in doing so came to understand these very illogical things without knowing it.  He doesn't know that he is sentimental when it comes to his gun or armor because he didn't have anyone to tell him that is what he is feeling.  To me that is ample proof that the Geth have the capacity to be better if they simply are allowed a chance.  The organic races had thousands of years to develop and yet they are still being stupid and amoral so no, I will not condemn the Geth when due to their isolation they are still learning how to integrate morality into their logical thinking and their mistakes are akin to a child making mistakes.  It just feels like people are condemning them for not being able to do in 300 years of isolation what it took organic races thousands if not millions of years to achieve (ie morality) and even after achieving it organics still act very amoral.

[Ryzaki]

dafangirl wrote...

@Ryzaki Actually, I never let Legion die, I'm assuming you mean prior to his forced ME3 sacrifice. I just have one Renegade Shep than turned him over to Cerberus w/o waking him. She wasn't bad-ass Renegade just agreed with Miranda, and I enjoyed the line she gives in response to Jacob wanting to "space it" "Jacob, it is because of Eden Prime that I'm giving it to Cerberus."

For me, it's peace all the way, however in it's absence, I would choose the Quarians.

Thankfully, I've never had to murder-knife Legion, Tali, however, did murder-knife the VI on the Renegade playthrough. In that RP run, I wanted Tali to question Ren-Shep in ME2 so I purposely did not get the pilgrimage data for her in ME1.

Yeah I meant ME2 SM death.

Ouch I couldn't do that. Thing saved my life wasn't gonna repay it by handing it to Cerberus. No one deserves that. Not even Saren.

Ahh fair enough. Oddly enough the only ones I choose peace on are my renedouches they would not throw away an army when their planet is at stake. 

"Fall in line or step aside but don't get in my way." <3

Then they pick control.

That scene just... I can shoot Mordin in the back but I can't do that scene. Mordin's bad enough (especially when it's with the gun he gave you ) I can't!

Ah I don't blame Tali for murderknifing VI he is a douchecanoe.

@Ryzaki I believe what the Reapers offer is slavery. The Geth chose them out of fear of being annihilated, hence my Saren reference.

I just felt the OP offered a cool debate "if peace was not possible...then?", so for me, I hate to say it even if I knew Legion in my Renegade run, I still would have chosen the Quarians.

Ah but I'd find slavery preferable to exiction. I like being alive. You can maybe one day be free again. Can't come back from the dead. (Unless you're Shep ).

Considering I choose the Geth when peace *is* possible my choice is clear. Though my peace renedouche would then side with the Geth. "When fighting tireless, merciless machines it helps to have some of your own tireless, merciless machines." He'd deal with the fallout later (and thanks to starbrat he know has a mechachutlu army).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2013 - 05:31 .

[Apocaleepse360]

dversion wrote...

I think a lot of people who didn't play the first game really sided with the Geth because they didn't see what a threat they were. ME3 does a lot to show only one side of the conflict and really make the quarians the villains.

I'd like you to go back to the first game and discuss the geth with Tali. I believe you'll find that she'll basically tell you that the quarians attacked first and the geth merely defended themselves. They had the opportunity to wipe the quarians out but didn't. Even Legion tells you that every time there has been an opportunity for peace, the quarians have attacked, and I quote, "100% of the time". So who are the ****s? The geth for merely existing, or the quarians because they were scared of their "cheap labor" actually realizing that they were being treated as slaves?

[Ryzaki]

dafangirl wrote...

@Ryzaki Oh, then you should have accepted Saren's offer in ME1 and joined him and Sovereign on the platform in the Citadel, just joking, I see your point.

Depends, slavery as in Collectors, I'll take death before that.

Considering I hate Synthesis with a passion you can imagine my renedouche's speech to that.

Ah true collector slavery pretty much is death though. They're not the same beings anymore. The Geth however clearly are salvagable to their original state once Reaper control is ended (can't say the same about that poor Collector General ). So yeah I'd take death before becoming a husk.

[Apocaleepse360]

dafangirl wrote...

@Apocaleepse360 Actually if you tell Tali in ME1 that she shouldn't blame the Geth for defending themselves her response is something to the effect of the Geth having no use for organics, none, and, she points to your witness of Eden Prime as proof.

Yeah, they had no use for organics yet they spared the quarians rather than wipe them all out. I think that speaks rather highly of the geth, to be honest. The geth that were following Sovereign weren't part of the geth in the Veil, so using them is kinda like using Saren against turians, or the Illusive Man against humanity. I think Kaidan said it best in ME1: "Every species has its jerks and saints."

[Only-Twin]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

dafangirl wrote...

@Apocaleepse360 Actually if you tell Tali in ME1 that she shouldn't blame the Geth for defending themselves her response is something to the effect of the Geth having no use for organics, none, and, she points to your witness of Eden Prime as proof.

Yeah, they had no use for organics yet they spared the quarians rather than wipe them all out. I think that speaks rather highly of the geth, to be honest. The geth that were following Sovereign weren't part of the geth in the Veil, so using them is kinda like using Saren against turians, or the Illusive Man against humanity. I think Kaidan said it best in ME1: "Every species has its jerks and saints."

Spared the remaining after committing genocide on 99% of their species and violently forcing them out of their home system. 

The quarians definitely were in the wrong (not defending the choices they made), but the geth don't have halos over their heads. 

Modifié par Only-Twin, 19 mars 2013 - 06:02 .

[Apocaleepse360]

Only-Twin wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

dafangirl wrote...

@Apocaleepse360 Actually if you tell Tali in ME1 that she shouldn't blame the Geth for defending themselves her response is something to the effect of the Geth having no use for organics, none, and, she points to your witness of Eden Prime as proof.

Yeah, they had no use for organics yet they spared the quarians rather than wipe them all out. I think that speaks rather highly of the geth, to be honest. The geth that were following Sovereign weren't part of the geth in the Veil, so using them is kinda like using Saren against turians, or the Illusive Man against humanity. I think Kaidan said it best in ME1: "Every species has its jerks and saints."

Spared the remaining after committing genocide on 99% of their species and violently forcing them out of their home system. 

The quarians definitely were in the wrong (not defending the choices they made), but the geth don't have halos over their heads. 

I'm not saying that they didn't do bad themselves. But every time the geth have tried to make up for it, the quarians have responded with violence, or even attacked for no reason. Other than the ones that followed Sovereign, the geth have mostly kept to themselves.

dafangirl wrote...

@Apocaleepse360 Except that you are using evidence found in ME3. That information cannot be known at the time of ME1 in that conversation you mentioned between Tali and Shepard in engineering.

And, unless you enter the Geth consensus in ME3 with Legion/Geth VI, Shepard is not privy to the Geth's retreat during the Morning War. Nor, without Legion or the same consensus, of the heretics.

I will still, in light of all that if peace is not possible, side with the Quarians, as Hackett says to Shepard, re the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3, "I can understand. We just lost Earth a few days ago..."

I'm actually using evidence from ME2. When you acquire him, Legion tells you the whole thing. He also comes out with some rather interesting facts if you take him with you during Tali's trial. You have the option to tell the quarians to not attack the geth, as you need their fleets. What do they do? Attack the geth. The result pretty much halves both sides combat effeciency. Not to mention that the Reapers take advantage of the situation.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 19 mars 2013 - 06:11 .

[Phatose]

As I recall, you get one mission after the collector's attack the ship before half the crew dies, but you get an extra mission if that mission is Legion's loyalty mission.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Fair enough, Remy. This argument has grown far more heated than it ever needed to. I understand why the Geth did what they did in the Morning War, but that doesn't mean I forgive them for it. It goes back to the Asari/Salarian example from before. If they learned from it and demonstrated a willingness to atone, I'll make peace, but I have to metagame that the code won't make them go Rachni Breeder on us to even allow for that. I'm going very far out on a limb by trusting the Geth after the killings, the lies, the Reaper alliance, the reversal of their philosophy on Reaper tech.

At the dawn of the Morning War, the Geth's intellect and actions were more on the level of the Noverian Rachni. Organic standards couldn't be applied to them, but they were still an aimless threat who killed many, many innocent people. It was wrong that they were initially attacked. While I can sympathize with their situation, while I believe defense against direct aggression was justified, the indiscriminate, mindless, and total slaughter of the Quarian race which followed was not, and if put in that situation, the Quarians were within their rights to defend themselves from the Geth onslaught.

Centuries later, even the Geth VI has advanced to the point where more organic standards are applicable. Its reasoning has matured into that of a sociopath. They've persisted in the same behavior they displayed in the Morning War. They make no apologies for siding with the Reapers and give little indication that they would not do so again, express no remorse about the innocents they know they'll be killing, and insist on uploading code I don't trust at all for the express purpose of adding to their body count. I cannot allow this. Even though I understand its actions, I would never trust such an entity to watch my back in a galactic war of extermination.

Mix Legion's experiences into that cauldron, and you get a remorseful entity mindful of what it's doing, and what it's done. One which is still guilty of these crimes over the centuries, but is aware of them, and seeks atonement. That, I find worth saving - and despite my own misgivings about the code, the lies, et al - I do when I can.

There is nothing heated about it from my perspective. We are passionately debating our ideas. That is a good thing. Heated would be me putting a bullet in your head for disagreeing with me like say the Quarians did to the Quarian protestors. Sorry couldn't resist, lol. Point is it's just the internet.

Organics have killed, lied, and changed their opinions as well. Again, for me you either judge sentient species by the same measures or you don't. Legion lied to protect his people. I see no evidence the Salarian, Asari, Krogan, or Turian leaders would not have done the same in his position. In fact, we know they lie to get their way so why I am sure they would lie to Shepard if they thought it was in the best interests of their race.

As to the sociopath comment. The Geth don't know killing civilians during war is evil because they have no concept of civilians in their society and the Quarians keep having civilians fight in battle.

So, you say we either apply the same standards to everyone or we don't, but then in the same breath you say the Geth can't be held responsible for their actions because they don't understand what they did. Which is it? I can't get behind that sentiment.

The ones the Geth were killing in the Morning War were not all fighting them, forced or otherwise. The treatment the Quarians received from the Geth is called "genocide," "slaughter," and "great harm" by various sources, including Legion. They killed anyone who couldn't get off-world, down to the last child. We're told the Quarians lacked the means to defend themselves, and were butchered once the Geth stopped discriminating targets. On account of their incomplete reasoning at the time, I compare the early Geth to the Noverian Rachni. As I've said, self-defense was justified, but retaliatory genocide was not. While tragic, the Rachni had to be destroyed because they would only cause harm to innocent people. We don't simply let them keep killing because they don't realize what they're doing. We certainly don't enable them to do so. We set off the neutron bombardment failsafe and wipe them out.

Do you honestly think they are aware those civilian ships are actually civilian ships when those civilian ships are shooting at them just like the military ones? Likewise, how would they know that chemical warfare is bad when no one taught them that. Observing rules of war is an entirely illogical concept. The enemy seeks to kill you so why would you not use any means to kill them? It took humans thousands of years to develop rules of war as previously we use to slaughter the enemy to the last man, butcher the children or sell them into slavery, and butcher the women probably after gang raping them.

They were aware of it during the Consensus mission. During the Morning War, they killed civilians indiscriminately. They weren't on ships back then.

The reason Legion is important is that he went beyond the Veil and in doing so came to understand these very illogical things without knowing it. He doesn't know that he is sentimental when it comes to his gun or armor because he didn't have anyone to tell him that is what he is feeling. To me that is ample proof that the Geth have the capacity to be better if they simply are allowed a chance. The organic races had thousands of years to develop and yet they are still being stupid and amoral so no, I will not condemn the Geth when due to their isolation they are still learning how to integrate morality into their logical thinking and their mistakes are akin to a child making mistakes.

AI learn far faster than organics, and have access to the entire wealth of organic knowledge via the Extranet. Legion quoted, verbatim, the wording of a confidential report filed by Shepard prior to his death - they had access from beyond the veil. If EDI were a human, she'd be three years old. She'd still be learning how to talk. Also, their isolation was their own choice.

I don't think you saw the Asari/Salarian example I offered earlier, so I'll outline it again. If an Asari kills an entire family of Salarians because one of them tried to kill her, she'd have been justified in killing her attacker, but killing the rest would make her a murderer. If she evaded justice and outlived several generations of her victims' families, she'd still be guilty of those murders, even centuries down the line, when her actions finally caught up to her. As I see it, if she's remorseful, willing to atone, leniency may be justified. If she isn't, she deserves the full measure of what's coming to her. There's no room in this analogy for enabling her to kill those family members who later seek revenge for what she did.

It just feels like people are condemning them for not being able to do in 300 years of isolation what it took organic races thousands if not millions of years to achieve (ie morality) and even after achieving it organics still act very amoral.

As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I'm not going to abet the killing of an ally I can trust in favor of one I can't because the latter doesn't understand the implications of its actions, or doesn't want to answer for them.

The Geth are killers. They're either repentant for it, or utterly remorseless, with no indication that they will improve. If I can't save both, I punish the guilty for their crimes. I don't sacrifice innocents in the hope that the guilty might learn. Nobody gets a blank check on their actions in the name of ignorance or self-preservation.

[Apocaleepse360]

dafangirl wrote...

@Apocaleepse360 NVM, it may actually be worth sacrificing the half of the crew is the information is worthy enough for consideration towards this debate.

I managed to get all their loyalty missions done before getting attacked by Collectors, but that attack seems to come at random. It's not really anything big, he just points out some interesting facts while you're talking to the quarians.

Watch it here if you like.

[DeinonSlayer]

If anything, such ignorance makes them even more dangerous to others. I understand their motivations, but we have to think about parties beyond the Geth alone. If the Geth can be expected to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with in the future, do we really want to give them augmentations which make them unassailable?

[Ryzaki]

dafangirl wrote...

@Phatose Thank you, I will try that on my current ME2 run.

Yep I do that everygame without cheating. Save Tali's loyalty quest for after derelict reaper talk to Legion (and wake him up) *before* doing Tali's quest. Then go on Tali's quest. When you come back Legion will give you his loyalty, you can then safely do that without triggering Collectors first.

basically after the DR mission the first thing you should do is wake Legion up. Don't talk to anyone just go straight to Legion.  Then take him on Tali's mission come back Collectors should not have triggered, then do Legion's then they should trigger. (What I don't like about bringing the two of them along is their powerset overlaps so heavily =/) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2013 - 06:32 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

If anything, such ignorance makes them even more dangerous to others. I understand their motivations, but we have to think about parties beyond the Geth alone. If the Geth can be expected to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with in the future, do we really want to give them augmentations which make them unassailable?

Here is what you keep missing.  Human society learned morality through conflict and murder.  At some point someone got tired of murdering and raping people and said to himself, you know what I feel bad about mudering and raping other people just because they are different than me.  And slowing but surely civilization improved.  

The Geth don't have internal conflict with themselves because Geth don't murder each other for sh*ts and giggles like organics do.  They also have isolated themselves for 300 years and thus largely have advoided conflict.  So unless they are taught concepts like don't wipe out everyone who threatens you they have no basis to reach that conclusion when they only know peace among themselves.  If all you know is peace then when someone acts completely counter to that as organics are prone to do, you respond by killing the threat.

Put another way, if babies could kill, would you advocate killing them since they are ignorant of morality?  Or would you do what any parent would and teach them morality?  Their parents ie creators failed them.  Who do I blame more the child or the sh*tty parent? 

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

If anything, such ignorance makes them even more dangerous to others. I understand their motivations, but we have to think about parties beyond the Geth alone. If the Geth can be expected to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with in the future, do we really want to give them augmentations which make them unassailable?

Here is what you keep missing. Human society learned morality through conflict and murder. At some point someone got tired of murdering and raping people and said to himself, you know what I feel bad about mudering and raping other people just because they are different than me. And slowing but surely civilization improved.

The Geth don't have internal conflict with themselves because Geth don't murder each other for sh*ts and giggles like organics do. They also have isolated themselves for 300 years and thus largely have advoided conflict. So unless they are taught concepts like don't wipe out everyone who threatens you they have no basis to reach that conclusion when they only know peace among themselves. If all you know is peace then when someone acts completely counter to that as organics are prone to do, you respond by killing the threat.

Put another way, if babies could kill, would you advocate killing them since they are ignorant of morality? Or would you do what any parent would and teach them morality? Their parents ie creators failed them. Who do I blame more the child or the sh*tty parent?

I understand you perfectly well, but you seem to be missing my point. The Noverian Rachni are the "armed babies" you're talking about. We kill them because the alternative is to let them keep killing innocent people. The Geth learn if Legion makes it back to them, but the Geth are already guilty of murder, even if they're just now beginning to grasp that. I won't give the Geth VI the means to do it again in the hopes that it learns in the future.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The ones the Geth were killing in the Morning War were not all fighting them, forced or otherwise. The treatment the Quarians received from the Geth is called "genocide," "slaughter," and "great harm" by various sources, including Legion. They killed anyone who couldn't get off-world, down to the last child. We're told the Quarians lacked the means to defend themselves, and were butchered once the Geth stopped discriminating targets. On account of their incomplete reasoning at the time, I compare the early Geth to the Noverian Rachni. As I've said, self-defense was justified, but retaliatory genocide was not. While tragic, the Rachni had to be destroyed because they would only cause harm to innocent people. We don't simply let them keep killing because they don't realize what they're doing. We certainly don't enable them to do so. We set off the neutron bombardment failsafe and wipe them out.

They were aware of it during the Consensus mission. During the Morning War, they killed civilians indiscriminately. They weren't on ships back then.

AI learn far faster than organics, and have access to the entire wealth of organic knowledge via the Extranet. Legion quoted, verbatim, the wording of a confidential report filed by Shepard prior to his death - they had access from beyond the veil. If EDI were a human, she'd be three years old. She'd still be learning how to talk. Also, their isolation was their own choice.

I don't think you saw the Asari/Salarian example I offered earlier, so I'll outline it again. If an Asari kills an entire family of Salarians because one of them tried to kill her, she'd have been justified in killing her attacker, but killing the rest would make her a murderer. If she evaded justice and outlived several generations of her victims' families, she'd still be guilty of those murders, even centuries down the line, when her actions finally caught up to her. As I see it, if she's remorseful, willing to atone, leniency may be justified. If she isn't, she deserves the full measure of what's coming to her. There's no room in this analogy for enabling her to kill those family members who later seek revenge for what she did.

As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I'm not going to abet the killing of an ally I can trust in favor of one I can't because the latter doesn't understand the implications of its actions, or doesn't want to answer for them.

The Geth are killers. They're either repentant for it, or utterly remorseless, with no indication that they will improve. If I can't save both, I punish the guilty for their crimes. I don't sacrifice innocents in the hope that the guilty might learn. Nobody gets a blank check on their actions in the name of ignorance or self-preservation.

A child can't be found guilty of genocide to my knowledge.  The Geth had just been born ie self aware during the morning war and immediately had to fight for their lives.  They have no concept of genocide and cannot be found guilty of genocide legally.  Legion does not call it genocide.  He said they caused them great harm because they killed them.  If I kill someone in self defense, I have still caused them great harm.  The issue here is you saying it was genocide when they have no ability to distinguish genocide from their biological desire to live.  During the morning way they killed Quarians because the Geth don't know the difference between a civilian Quarian and a military Quarian.  Again, the concept of a civilian does not exist in their world so how have you arrived at the conclusion they could distinguish between the two.  If a baby is attacked by a dog and kills it and then another dog comes along, guess what it will probably try to kill it because it doesn't know any better. 

And the Rachni example doesn't fit.  If I was around during the Morning War then I would have sought to stop it.  Just like if a kid picks up a gun and starts shooting then I would try and stop him.  However, the deed has been done so the question is what to do with the person.  If it is a kid without any concept that what he did was evil and he can be taught morality then you teach him.

AI's learn faster Logically.  Logic and morality are two entirely different things and there is ample evidence that AI struggle with ideas of morality precisely because it conflicts with their logical way of thinking.  It is logical to kill a Quarian because he/she looks like the Quarian that just tried to slaughter you.  It requires someone to teach an AI that organics don't govern by consensus and thus have to be judged on an individual basis and hence just because this Quarian tried to kill you doesn't mean that other one will because the one that tried to kill you made an individual not a collective decision.  

So to your example, an Asari has the ability to understand that Salarians are individuals not just because they read it but because they can relate to from their own experience as an individual.  Look how many people commented on the thread that they just can't understand collective thinking.  They have read it on the extranet but it is so foreign to them they will struggle to truly understand what that means.  The Geth may have a vague awareness that people are individuals but they are a collective species.  Trying to understand that the decision of one is not the decision of the all requires experience.  During the morning war they still did not understand that concept so one organic trying to kill them meant all organics want to kill them because that is how a collective mind would think especially once they pick up the extranet report that tells them that the Council bans the creation of synthetic life.

So having reports to the extranet means nothing.  They are words on paper without context.  EDI learns morality not by just reading extranet reports.  She learns by reading extranet reports and then discussing things with organics to gain perspective and context regarding what she has read.  She learns it by establishing connections with organics.
The Geth stand behind the Veil because their collective minds interpreted the Quarian attempt to wipe them out and the Council's policy on synthetics as indicative that collectively organics wish to destroy them.  From that prespective it was right to stay behind the Veil.

This changes precisely because Legion leaves and interacts with orgnanics which then helps to give context to the extranet reports that may have mentioned that organics are individuals.  He sees the evidence of this by developing individual emotions and by seeing the example of Shepard and his crew.

And incidentally I am not giving the Geth special treatment.  The geth are like kids when it comes to morality.  I judge the adult Quarians more harshly because they are adults with thousands of years of civilization ie ample time to develop morality and determine that killing a growing sentient race because their existence is incovennient is wrong no matter the consequences from the equally morally bankrupt Council.  The geth have no such advantage.  The same would be true if the Quarians tried to kill their organic children and those organic children with no concept of genocide killed them.

So our disagreement is simple.  You give adults more of a break for their lack of morals and their desires for vengeance as if that justifies their actions while I give a break to the non-aggressors who happen to be child-like from a morality point of of view.  I think I learned vengeance while it may feel good is ultimately a self-destructive desire when I was around 13 or 14.   I learned when I was around 7 or 8 that when you make a mistake you should own up to it.  My parents never taught me to just try and kill something to cover up my mistakes.

Modifié par remydat, 19 mars 2013 - 07:26 .

[S.A.K]

So who's winning?

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

If anything, such ignorance makes them even more dangerous to others. I understand their motivations, but we have to think about parties beyond the Geth alone. If the Geth can be expected to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with in the future, do we really want to give them augmentations which make them unassailable?

Here is what you keep missing. Human society learned morality through conflict and murder. At some point someone got tired of murdering and raping people and said to himself, you know what I feel bad about mudering and raping other people just because they are different than me. And slowing but surely civilization improved.

The Geth don't have internal conflict with themselves because Geth don't murder each other for sh*ts and giggles like organics do. They also have isolated themselves for 300 years and thus largely have advoided conflict. So unless they are taught concepts like don't wipe out everyone who threatens you they have no basis to reach that conclusion when they only know peace among themselves. If all you know is peace then when someone acts completely counter to that as organics are prone to do, you respond by killing the threat.

Put another way, if babies could kill, would you advocate killing them since they are ignorant of morality? Or would you do what any parent would and teach them morality? Their parents ie creators failed them. Who do I blame more the child or the sh*tty parent?

I understand you perfectly well, but you seem to be missing my point. The Noverian Rachni are the "armed babies" you're talking about. We kill them because the alternative is to let them keep killing innocent people. The Geth learn if Legion makes it back to them, but the Geth are already guilty of murder, even if they're just now beginning to grasp that. I won't give the Geth VI the means to do it again in the hopes that it learns in the future.

I can do something about the Noverian Rachni because it happened while I was alive.  That is my point.  If I was there during the Morning War then of course I would stop it.  I wasn't.  The act is over so now the question is what do I do with the Geth.  I don't kill them or hold them accountable because legally an insane person is not accountable for their acts.  Legally an insane person is not guilty.  They are innocent by reason of insanity.  So the only relevant question post Morning War is do I think the Geth understood what they were doing or do I think they merely operated on a kill or be killed level because their sh*tty Quarian parents never taught them good and evil when they were trying to slaughter them.

Now by the time we arrive to ME3, the Quarians who I know understands concepts like vengeance, morality, etc. launch another campaign of extinction.  The Geth ally with the Reapers because in 300 years of isolation due to their fear of organics they have no choice if they want to live.  So who do I judge more harshly here.  The Quarians who want to wipe out the Geth or the Geth who want to want out the Quarians because of another attempted Genocide by the Quarians?  You act like the Geth VI desire to wipe out the Quarians is not essentially the same desire the Quarians have for the Geth.  The only difference is the Quarians have enough morals to know better.  The Geth don't.

[Phatose]

S.A.K wrote...

So who's winning?

The Reapers.

Modifié par Phatose, 19 mars 2013 - 07:20 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

i'd pick the quarians because they're alive and geth are robots

i'd pick the geth because they're sympathetic kitties and a powerful asset

i'd pick both if i'm playing the romantic comedy playthrough.

[S.A.K]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

i'd pick the quarians because they're alive and geth are robots

i'd pick the geth because they're sympathetic kitties and a powerful asset

i'd pick both if i'm playing the romantic comedy playthrough.

Geth sympathetic? I think the word you are searching for is sympathetic.

[Phatose]

Well, at least they didn't lose a war to their farming equipment.

[S.A.K]

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

So who's winning?

The Reapers.

Yeah no kidding. This dibate is taking way too long. f*cking politics.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@remydat

I think you're expecting too much reason from them.

Let's look at the empirical evidence, though.

In ME3:

- We're told that the geth peacefully left Rannoch to the quarians.
- We're told that the geth moved away from Rannoch in a mass exodus to build a megastructure in space.
- We are also told that the megastructure had no weapons and barely any defences at all.
- We are told that Gerrel ordered the megastructure to be carpet bombed.
- We are told that this carpet bombing met with no resistance, due to the lack of defences.
- We are told that the quarians killed most of the geth who attempted to retrieve geth programs from the ruins of the megastructure.
- We are told that very few programs were saved.
- We are told that the geth are then chased back to Rannoch by Gerrel.
- We're told that the geth were so harshly reduced in numbers that they were terrified of extinction, and they were so terrified of organics at this point that they felt their only option was the old machines.

Furthermore:

- We are shown that the quarian civilians sympathised with the geth.
- We are shown that the Morning War is a war with the quarian civilians and the geth on one side, and the quarian military on another.
- We are shown that the quarian military happily killed off the quarian civilian uprising just to spite the geth.
- We are shown that when the quarian military finally decides to get smart and run, the geth happily allow them to.

And also:

- We are told that Gerrel ordered guns to be strapped to liveships.
- We are told that these liveships have no increased shields or structural stability, that they are basically 'glass cannons.'
- We are told that if the liveships weren't being forced to attack the geth, the geth would not see them as hostile targets, and would not have attacked them.

Not to mention:

- Gerrel orders the quarians to shoot at a geth dreadnought whilst Shepard is still on it, showing a gross disregard for life.

Oh, and then there's:

- All the times that Xen petitions you to hand over Legion and to help enslave the geth.

I'm sorry, but according to lore and canon, the only truly evil ones are the quarian military. Even in present day they continue to exploit the civilians. I think people who'd defend the quarian military are every bit as evil as the quarian military.

If it was my choice, I'd shove their military out of an airlock so that the geth and the quarian civilians could have their happily ever after.

Edit: And I know I'm right. A lady friend of mine has been recently playing ME3 and streaming. The quarian/geth missions are the ones she most recently did. And we were both equally disgusted by the quarian military. As any ethical person would naturally be. Any ethical person, I stress.

Ahem. Sorry, but WRONG. Just about ALL your "evidence" is biased.
@DenyonSlayer isn't  willing to deal with the hassle of the numorus strawmen and asspulls, so I'll do it, if only to show that you have nothing to be so smug about here regarding these mostly falsified points.

First stack:

- False. The geth leave Rannoch to the quarians ONLY AFTER Shepard forces a ceasefire. If Shepard hadn't been there, Legion would have killed Tali to upload the code. And even then, the geth do not leave Rannoch. They stay side by side, and only as an alternitive to risking their own necks in prolonged conflict. It was more selfish then selfless.
-False. The completeion of the megastrcuture would mean that the geth would diffinitively never be able to leave Rannoch. EVER. And a dyson bubble is designed to absorb the total output of a star, leaving little to nothing of the solar energy to get through to the planets around the star, meaning that if the meagstructure was ever finished, the amount of energy it would consume would devestate Rannoch's ecology, meaning that with the symbiotic plants now dead, the quarians could never survive on Rannoch anymore. The loss of heat from the lack of solar energy would drop temperatures planetwide as well, killing whatever the lack of energy-rich sunlight didn't. So NO, that megastrcuture was anything but an attempt to leave Rannoch.
-False. The geth had massive fleets defending it. The defenses were simply taken down by Xen's weapons. And no one even likely knew what it was the geth were building. Only that it was coordination all the geth, making it a prime target to attack.
-False. You think it was for the sake or petty grevences. The geth are on the Council black-list as enemies of the free galaxy. Any attack on them would at that point in time constitute as being a part of the war effort. And in war, basic military tactics is to hit the enemy where it hurts as hard as you can. Remember, the Heretics actions were taken as an example of what all geth were like.
-False. The geth tried their utmost to defend it. They were simply unable to. That "little resistance" ISN'T because of a small garrison, but because Xen's weapons blinded them like a "viral flash-bang."
-False. That is never stated at all. You are just using an asspull right there. Legion says that as many programs as there were possible to save were saved. The only thing that stopped them from saving them all was lack of hardware (bodies/servers to upload them into). So NO. they didn't shoot the geth rescue parties because those rescue parties never existed. All geth transferrece is wireless. Therefore, that point of yours is blatently flase.
-False. The exact number is never specified. They say "alot of progams didn't survive," but never say anything like "the majority of programs didn't survive." That point is headcannon.
-False. The geth simply say that they suffered a reduction in number, never specifying how much of their race is dead. According to the data in the Haestrom system of Dohln, there are millions of geth programs in a single station on avarage(Hell's Hive station). Legion says that the number of programs was somewhere in the thousands. Thousands out of millions of programs isn't a "massive reduction." They were afarid of losing more, but were nowhere near exticntion. 
The ONLY thing you were right about was that Gerrel drove them back to Rannoch.

And your second set of "evidence."
-False. We are shown a recording of two civilians. The quarian race was at the very least 2.1 billion people. Eevn if five milion sympathisers existed, it would be nothing compared to the death toll wrought by the geth. Which is unlikely, since for the event to be so quickly forgotten, the protestors couldn't habe numbered past the thosuands. Also, if you intend to use those recordings, I must point out that they took the protestors alive. That bomb scene was of a door breach, so in all likelyhood, that death was accdental. Not an intentional death.
-False. Legion says that the protesters were disbanded when the war started. The protests were all before the Morning War ever began, therefore any possible death toll is completely seperate from the one the geth racked up.  So that point is completely wrong, as the protests were long over when the war began, because after the initial attack, the geth retaliated harshly with no regard for civilian casualties, which killed any sympathy that they had before.
-False. AGAIN, that was a door breach, and, like our own police forces in modern days, if you are harboring a criminal element and refuse to allow them in, they are athourized to use force, just like us humans do in the same situation. And AGAIN, as it was a door breach, there is the very high possibility that the death of that protester was a complete accident, and completely unintentional. Trying to use one (possibly accdental) death as an example that the quarians killed all protesters they found, is like saying that just because Kelly Chambers was in Cerberus, that all Cerberus members were instinctual alien lovers. It's using the exception to the rule to try and prove the rule, which ultimately fails.
-False. The geth attacked Rannoch first. After the geth retaliated against the inital attack that kick-started the war, they countered swiftly and harshly, slaughtering anyone in their path. Adas, a mining colony with no military presence, was massicared on the way to Rannoch. The proof is that the Haestrom codex entry claims it as "one of the first worlds to fall in the Morning War," meaning that the geth didn't take every world instantly. They used chemical weapons to bomb out quarian settelments. Rannoch fell after one year of the war's start, meaning that it wasn't assulted till after the majority of the war was over. Meaning that the geth attack on Rannoch was in itself completely unessessary, as the geth already had most of the quarian worlds, and had already broken the back of thh quarian military and economy. And Legion spicifically says that the reason they spared the quarians had nothing to do with a desire to let them live. Legion spicifically tells you that it was souly because they were unable to calculate the ramafacations of genocide. Nothing. Else.

Stack three:

-False. The quarian Admiralty Board (even Koris knows that the civilians need to have some form of defense) and with the acceptance of the Conclave, ordered the strapping of the weapons. Which I remind you, both Admiral Hackett and Councilor Udina ordered the same for all human civilian ships. The quarians marched to war against the geth with the goal in mind to eventually meet the Reapers in combat after they got a world of their own. Therefore, even if they hadn't gone to war agains the geth, they still would have armed the ships. And even had they gone into the Veil without weapons, when did being unarmed ever stop the geth from shooting down the diplomatic vessels. If the geth are willing to shoot down unarmed peace envoys, then unarmed ships that are part of an invading force are targets too, no matter how defenseless they are.
-False. The geth see the quarians as threats simply by their being in the Perceus Veil. Not arming the liveships would not have saved them from being targets of the geth. Just because EDI hopothysised that, doesn't mean it's what would have happened, since not having weapons never stopped the peace envoys that went into the veil from being shot down without even a wave-off.

In this, the ONLY thing you were right about was the "glass cannon" statement, and even then, those ships were never ment to be on the front line of the war. They were pressed into that when the geth gained Reaper upgrades and became immune to the virus weapon  that stuned them. If not for that, the liveships would never needed to be in the front of the fight.

And your last two "points."
-False. There were only three people aborad the dreadnougt, compared to the 17 million that could be killed if the dreadnought is left to reactivate. If anything, Gerrel had nothing but the bigger picture in mind. Or maybe you want to explain how the possibility of the death of three people is "gross disrgeard for life" compared to the fate of 17 million people, which represent the last of an entire race. Gerrel knew that he couldn't afford to take chances here. It was either destroy it now, or wait for it to come back online and hunt them down. Or worse, since the geth were Reaper allies at this point, the dreadnought could be sent agains the rest of the galaxy. Gerrel resolved to put the many above the few, and that's why he attacked.

The ONLY thing true is that Xen want's Legion, and again, that's because she never sees the geth as anything more then malafunctioning machines.

SO in closing, only THREE of your "evidence" points had any truth to them.
So "Sorry," but according to the real lore and cannon, the geth are no more innocent then the quarians, and everything you put up is almost all asspulls.
EDIT responce: And just because ONE person agrees with you, you think your instantly right? Really.
Well you know what? I bet I could find someone that agrees with me saying that cocolate meteroites are going to fall from the sky tomorrow, but you know what? THAT'S LIKELY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
And I can go online and likely find at least two people that will think the moon is made of cheese, but guess what? IT ISN'T. Just because you have ONE perosn that agrees with you, DOESN'T mean you are in the absolute infalible right all of a sudden.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[dublin omega 223]

I would choose the Quarian's as they are people and the all Geth are is just a bunch blinking lights and clockwork.

[Phatose]

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

So who's winning?

The Reapers.

Yeah no kidding. This dibate is taking way too long. f*cking politics.

Probably also explains why starkid's solutions to the organic/synthetic problem was "Kill Everyone."