remydat wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
[Yes. There. Is.
By showing us one incident, we are forced to take the word of the at face value. And, knowing your extreme prejudice, you would not believe the recording if it was quarian based, would you? You think a geth recording, from a server overrun with Reaper code, from a single viewpoint, showing one single death, in a door-breach situation where said death may have, in all likelyhood, been completely accidental, is proof that the quarians mass murdered everyone that disagreed with the order? You really think that 99% of the quarian race - at least 2.1 billion people - were caused ny the quarians themselves, even when everyone else, the geth included, openly admit that they caused the death? Or the fact that the protests took place before the Morning War, and thus, were completely seperate from the death toll of the War?
Just think about these pretenses with some bit of logic, will you? Stop being so condesending to him when you are the one that clearly isn't looking at this from a non-biased perspective.
Also, what?
"Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can support Shepard's fight against the Old Machines.... If the Creators no longer threaten us." - Geth V.I., Rannoch.
That statement right there. That is the Geth V.I. blatently and un-subtley suggesting that they can be more valuble then the quarians, and to sacrifice them for the geth. And it's done so callously and uncaringly of the quarian's lives.
And again, if Legion never returns to the geth, then all geth are like the V.I. - uncaring of organics, unless it furthers their own goals. They are remorsefull of their past, but won't bat an eyelash to helping others. It's like how sociopaths can regret the loss of life they take, but not the actual action the killing itself.
And AGAIN, they are branded as enemies of the free galaxy by the Council thanks to the Heretics, which the geth never claimed responcibility for until it was a problem for them. And again, it can be traced back to how the geth never bothered to communicate these feelings to the quarians and at least start a healing process.
And AGAIN, AS STATED MANY TIMES OVER, the quarians in their current state are a BURDEN to the turians and humans, because by lugging their civilians around with them, they would consume more resources then were avalible to give them, and be unable to tackle multiple fronts, and be unable to effectively manuver in battle as they would need to constantly huddle around the liveships, AND would suffer crippling blows to their race for every large ship that was lost.
To be of ANY help to the war effort, they would have had to suddenly and abruptly become completely self-sufficant. Not the survival-based day-to-day scavenger life they currently have. The only way to do that is to get a planet of their own. And Rannoch is the only world that is dextro-based that has breathable atmosphere that isn't lethel to them, and edible food that doesn't need to be made into oversterilized paste to eat, and untouched raw resources to use for their fleets.
So NO, the ONLY way they could be any helpfull part of the war is if they were self-sufficant again, and that's only possible if they reclaim their world. And because the geth are still branded as Reaper allies by the Council, attacking them actually WOULD be considered as aiding in the war effort. That only ever changes if the geth are saved/peace is achieved.
And AGAIN, the quarians had no choice, because they didn't want to bring the Council down on their heads. Their weren't in any position to defy them, so harsh scanctions or censorship would be devestating to their economy. Losing favor with the Council would have likely destroyed the quarian economy and plunged their entire sociaty into economic depression for who knows how many years it takes to get back into the good graces. Mr. 12D would be homeless and pennyless. And it would be even worse if the government admitted anything, as it gives legal grounds for lawsuits to be filed against them by the Council, devedtating them even further.
So YES, they had every reason to be afraid of the Council. It wasn't cowardly. Look at Mass Effect: Revelation, at how the Council chews out humanity for creating the Eliza A.I at Gagarain Station, and you'll understand that the ramafacations for an entire race of A.I.s would have been harsh.
And from the Heretics, present day quarians came to the conclusion that, based on what the Heretics (which are assumed to reperesent all geth) have done, that the geth are a threat to everything, and they are obligated to correct their mistake and end the geth.
NITHER time, it was unessesary. Circumstances drove them to desperation, as the alternitive was far worse from that viewpoint in time. You act like the quarians assumed this would happen to them. The many posts by me and DenyonSlayer detail why the quarians were forced into the choices they took, no differently then how the geth were forced into their deal with the Reapers. If you can sympathise with a race joing the Reapers, then surely you can sympathise with a race doing what it did to survive the Reapers.
And AGAIN, wrong. The fleet does nothing without the coberating opinoions of the Admiralty Board, and the Conclave - a quarian senete where every ship has a represenitive, and a say. And the war would not be possible, unless a majority of the Conclave agreed with the decision to go to war. So NO, they weren't oppresed. They chose to attack because it was the only way they could get a world and be able to be self-sufficant enough to aid the other races against the Reapers.
And you continue to ignore that it takes two to tango. Faults in BOTH organic and synthetic created the conflect. Thus far you have ignored over 40+ pages of information on the quarian's circumstances, mking your opinion diffinitively prejudiced since you blatently ignore cannon-backed information.
And did you listen to the Dalatrass. Calling the krogan ****s is basically exactally what they do verbatium, and humans too based on the reckless behavior they had pre-contact with opening every relay they saw. The turians did too, compairing them to krogan.
I don't have a prejudice against Quarians. Tali is usually my main love interest. I have a prejudice against people who incite hatred by attempting Genocide. So in Mass Effect that includes the Quarians and the Council. I know for a fact they are adult enough to hold them accountable for making horrific decisions. What I gather from the Geth is a bunch of domesticated units were forced into war and with no concept of the rules of war responded like a 1 year old kid in that situation would if they had the power to kill. And no the Quarians didn't mass murder everyone who disagreed. They murdered enough of them that the rest shut up and allowed the attempted genocide to continue. Maybe this wasn't made clear but I judge the Quarians more harshly because they are adults. I judge the Geth less harshly because they are equivalent to a scared child whose father murdered his mother and tried to then murder it. They had yet to learn concepts of morality and rules of war because the Quarians tried to murder them before they could. Translation, they did not yet have the capacity to understand the morality of their decisions. They did start to understand that at the end of the Morning War which is why they were reluctant to finish the job.
So you seem to be confusing the point. We all agree the Geth killed most of that 99%. I am saying the 99% by the time the Morning War started were considered enemies because either the majority of them supported the extermination of the Geth or the silent majority were too scared to resist. From the Geth perspective they killed them because they lacked the capacity to understand restraint and compassion at that point in time. You can't argue the Geth should have stopped the Heretics but then give the Quarians a pass for remaining silent while their government tried to exterminate a race. And don't respond with the bull that the Geth were not fully self aware yet. That is just semantics. The Quarians knew the Geth were on the path to self awareness and tried to snuff it out because they didn't want to man up and deal with their mistakes. So the difference here is the silent majority was willing to remain silent so that a group of beings who had done them no wrong and who had spent their entire lives serving them could be destroyed because their existence had become problematic. The silent majority of Geth were willing to remain silent while the Heretics waged war on races that wanted the extinction of the Geth as evidence by official Council policy. You are free to disagree with me but to pretend like people can't see the clear moral distinction there is silly.
Please explain to me how the Quarians can feed themselves and fight an effective war against the Geth but then magically would be a burden to the Turians or Humans. Where were they getting all the food and resources during their war with the Geth because it wasn't Rannoch.
And again, the Quarians had a choice. They could own up to their mistake, say they will not destroy a growing sentient race and face the consequences. That is called being a mature adult. It is a morally bankrupt excuse to say you had no choice in destroying a growing sentient race because you wanted to avoid economic sanctions or whatever else. All you are telling me is you valued your own selfish interests more than you valued the life of the Geth. That doesn't mean you had not choice. That just means you are a coward who tried to take the easy way out and the result is 99% of your people got killed. That's called Karma. It can be a b*tch.
So I think you are confused, I am not ignoring the reasons the Quarians did what they did. I am telling you their reasons don't excuse their actions. What kind of lesson would that be for a kid? Hey kid, if you screw up just eliminate anyone who could reveal your screw up so that you don't have to be held accountable for your actions, lol.
Yes. Yes you DO have a prejudice.
You want to know something?
I'm a geth synpathiser. No kidding. I support that they were wronged. I support that their treatments formed the isolatinist belief that hurt them in the long run. What I
don't support is everyong banging the quarians over something they had no control over, yet give the geth a free pass on it.
And again, HOW many times to I, and others, have to tell you that since NO ONE knew the geth were alive at the time, NO ONE KNEW THAT THE ATTACK WAS TANTAMOUNT TO GENOCIDE. And besides, the Council would have devestated the quarian economy with harsh sanctions over it had they known. The only way the Quarian's could escape the Council's wrath is to eliminate any and all evidence of the mistake. At the time, because again, NO ONE KNEW THEY WERE ALIVE, deactivating geth was seen as no different then deactivating a brainless LOKI mech, or an AVINA V.I. program.
And the geth DID have concepts of morals. In the recordings, we see at least one geth try surrendering itself. They had morals, but when the quarians finally panicked and attacked them full force, they said "screw it" and retaliated foll force. So that "1 year old in war" mentalaty rings completely false here.
And WRONG AGAIN. The quarians murdered NO ONE. They imprisioned, and death was only in the last resort. Those quarians were police officers, and like all officers, the arrest first. Killing is the last resort, and in the case of that bomb, likely unintentional manslaughter. They NEVER murdered any of the protesters, so stop trying to use it as a point.
And look at Xen. Her ideals on the geth not being alive. THAT'S the mindset that the quarian government had before the geth retaliated. They didn't know they were alive, so they didn't see it as murder to "deactivate" them.
And the ONLY reason the geth spared the quarians was because they didn't know the ramafacations of genocide at ALL. Not because it was quarians, but because genocide itself wasn't comprehensible to them yet. THAT'S the only reason the quarians were spared.
And AGAIN, wrong. Those protests ended BEFORE the Morning War, and the entire population turned on the geth after they retaliated and stopped caring about civilian casualties. At that point, when the war was in full swing, there wasn't a quarian that believed in sympathy, with all the sympathisers feeling like fools to trust the geth as they now no longer bothered to discriminate military from civilian. This is why none of the quarians remember this - because all sympathy for the geth was long dead by the time the war was in high gear.
So NO, yoru point is wrong, because at that point all the quarians hated the geth. So NO, I am not giveing a pass. You misunderstood the hsitory again.
And AGAIN, WRONG about semantcis. Just because something mimics life, doesn't mean it IS alive. Look at video games in general. Are the mass of pixials on the screen actual living characters/beings, just because they phantomine being alive in the universe they are portrayed in like a book? Jusy because something mines it, doesn't mean it actually is alive.
And AGAIN, if they had "owned up," then they lost their "right to remain slient" against the Council, in which "anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." The Council would have levied harsh and dibilitating Lawsuits against the quarians for what they did,
on top of the scanctions. Their entire sociaty would fall into economic depression, and then all those lives would be dying of poverty anyway. So NO, "owning up" would have fixed absolutly nothing for them. The geth would still be dead (the Council would never let them survive), and the quarians would be exiled into a rouge nation, and still be victum to a large death count from the depression casused by the Council's sanctions.
So NO, there WAS no "silent majroity" for the qaurians, as any and all sympathy died for the geth after they stopped caring about civilians. 'Silent majority" didn't exist for the geth
either, because ALL geth are internetworked for consensis. EVERY SINGLE GETH voices their unbiased opinion, which are ALL taken into account to create consensis. Given that, HOW is "silent majoriy" possible when
the entire function of geth coinsensis is based on the compsoation of the collective opinions of every single geth?
So you see, " Silent majoriy" ISN'T a factor for EITHER race.
And another thing you do not understand is that the geth you face in the games?
They are the same exact geth programs that killed quarians in the Morning War. They are immortal to the ravages of time, remember? These are the same geth that butchered the civilians in their retaliation. The modern quarians are not their acnestors. They see the geth as living beings, and Tali even says that many feel remorsefull for what they did to the geth, and that many actually blame themselves for giving the geth the negitive views they have of organics. Desperation was what drove both sides to what they did, yet you STILL try to preach that the geth had no fault.
And I and DenyonSlayer ALREADY explained SEVERAL TIMES OVER the circumstances of the quarians through
20+ pages.
I will try ONE MORE TIME to get it through.
The quarians are not resorce-efficant. They burn through entire supplies in weeks. Supplies that would last a turian fleet a month will be used up in
days by the Migrant fleet, because unlike a turian fleet, which only needs to support 50-60 crew per crusier, the quarians need to support at least
300 per ship. A turian fleet of sixty ships needs to support 3600 people. A quarian group of 300 ships needs to support
90,000 people. And it continues to double and double as you go up. The quarians consume far more then the military ships of the turians do because, unlike the turians, the quarians are carring 17 million people with them whereever they go, consuming more then 20-30 times the resources that a single turian fleet does, making the quarians a
massive burden on the already-strained turian supply lines - the very supply lines they were brought in to
reinforce. This hurts humans as well, as it hampers turian responce time and rediness.
And the quarians were mostly scavenging food and resources, but sterilized nutriant paste created from dextro plant extract, syntheticly grown in artifical greenhouses, doesn't do much for them. Especally since many of the base plant sample the qarians have are imported. And those food supplies are small, as there is a finite amount of room to store resources onborad the ships, since most of the space is taken up by the quarians themselves. The remaining cargo space is then split between food, fuel storage, medical supplies, raw minerals used to fabricate repair and patch mateials for fixing ships. The resources are carefully balanced, and are always on the tipping point on a dayle basis. Every day it's unstable.
How much worse do you think that gets when they are forced into war? Supplies get lopsided, meaning there are shortages of certin things at critical times, which can become fatal. They live tottering on the brink in peace time. War would destroy the barely-intact balance the have. The only reason the went into war agains the geth wa because they had a viral weapon that would blind the geth so badly that the geth would never be able to fire a single shot back. Therefore, there was little risk. I mean, look how fast they crumbled when they were forced into a frontial fight.
And like I said above, owning up would not have changed anything. The Council would have come in and
killed the geth
themselves, and the quarians would have been driven to
total poverty by the economic depression caused by the Council's sanctions and censorship. And if they tried, the geth would have likely responded to the Council forces just as viloently, and then the Council wound pound them and cause far more colateral damage then there already would have been.
"Being a mature adult" would have been singing the death warrents of their entire middle and lower classes. You are really going to fault them because they
didn't want their lower classes to fall into a third world-sytle depression? Because I think trying to ensure your people have any chance at a future which avoides that fate superceeds personal pride.
And AGAIN, no one saw the geth as anything more then machines that were parroting words they didn't understand.
Just saying.
I mean, if your people - you entire culture - was dependant on the fate of someone else, regardless of the position, would you really throw away the future of your entire country and culture for another? When you are in a position of leadership, you HAVE to put your own people's welfare ahead of anothers. That's why they put you in that position in the first place.
It wasn't cowardace, and it wasn't karma. It was simple desperation.
And after all, one can also say that the geth's servitude to the Reapers was "karma" getting
them back by putting them in the same life they rebelled from. Right?
So NO, I am not the one that's confused here. You are doing the exact same thing you accuse ME of doing, except for the geth. You are acting like the
geth's reason's excuse
their actions, but that it's not the same for the quarians, which is prejudiced.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 mars 2013 - 08:50 .
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