4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

So you think the council should just allow AI to be made left and right? I'm Pretty sure the council has those laws in place for good reason. Double edged sword? Harldy,That quote is about sitting by and watching while someone you know goes off and does evil. this dies not apply to the quarians or the council, only to the Geth who knew of nazaras plan but did nothin but allow some of there own to join his cause with out so much as a peep of warning to all the races who have never wrong the Geth.

Really it doesn't apply while the Quarians watched as other Quarians tried to kill the Geth?  Leaving out the Quarian protestors who did try and stop evil for happening the majority of Quarians seemed content to let the Geth be killed.  

And I am pretty sure the Council is morally bankrupt.  The Asari hid the nature of their powers for centuries while demanding every other culture share knowledge gained from prothean beacons.  The Dalatross wanted to reward Urdnot Wrex getting the Krogan to do the unthinkable and fight for Turians by sabotage a cure to the Genophage.  Hell the First Contact War was started because humans dared to find a Beacon on Mars and use it with no knoledge that a council existed.  Did the Turians try and talk or did we not pass go and went straight to war?  So yeah, the Council is sh*t.  It is just a bunch of races who found Prothean Beacons first lied about it and then proceeded to strong arm the rest of the Galaxy as they regulated Space for their own selfish interest.

So I think the Council needs to mind it's own d**n business.  Their selfishness and fear of synthetics is precisely why the Reapers determined that they needed to harvest organics.  They are likely just the latest incarnation (witness the imperialist douchebags known as the Protheans) who create the conditions that make synthetics fear organics.

[Phatose]

Er....statistically, I seem to remember the heretics being significantly less the half a race.

[Lars10178]

I sent the quarians to their deaths in my first play through. I liked the geth as a whole more than just Tali

[Auld Wulf]

@remydat

I just tend to watch on with amusement. It's kind of sad that people think of all the geth and all the quarians as just two separate units. We have at least two distinct factions on each side, and one sub-faction. And then you have factions strongarming other factions, subverting their will.

The Geth

The Peace-Seeking Geth

These guys built the Legion platform in order to try and extend an olive branch to organics, to try to figure out how peace could be achieved. It was these guys who left Rannoch to build a megastructure so that the Quarians could move back in (they'd have no one to attack if all the geth could finally leave).

The Heretical Geth

These are the geth who politically side with the old machines. These are the ones we see in Mass Effect 1 and 2, who're attacking organics at the behest of the old machines.

The Reaper Geth

These geth are basically just geth platforms running Reaper code, with no geth code present. The heretical geth invited this in order to survive. The heretical geth with their greater numbers also pushed cooperation with the old machines after the quarian military carpet-bombed the defenceless megastructure, killing most of the peaceful geth.

The Quarians

The Quarian Military

Absolute fascists and absolute xenophobes. No different than the geth heretics. In the Morning War the quarian military killed as many civilians as they did geth. This is because there was a civilian uprising to protect the geth (as we see in the consensus). The quarian military continues to show their evil in ME3 where they strap guns to civilian liveships, creating 'glass cannon' ships.

The Quarian Civilians

These are the good guys amongst the quarians, every bit as good as the peaceful geth. They want peace and it's what they strive for. They are lead by Admiral Koris who is, himself, a man of peace. They want to end hostilities with the geth and just end the war. They don't have any of the hate or bitterness of the quarian military.

The Quarian Scientists

Headed up by Xen. If Xen is any indication then it's unethical science. Xen wants nothing more than to enslave the geth, and she uses the military to her ends. Ultimately, she just wants an army of slavebots which she could use to oppress and enslave other quarians. She's every bit as evil as Gerrel.

Conclusion

If we could get the peace-seeking geth and the quarian civilians together, and get rid of the rest, then we'd ultimately have a Future Perfect scenario. There would be a long-lasting peace and mutual cooperation between them. But both peoples have factions which are working against that. Just as the humans have factions which are working against the goals of other factions. See Cerberus and the Alliance.

To think of the geth as one single unit, or the quarians as one single unit is folly. There's good and bad in both, represented by their factions.

[G Kevin]

Phatose wrote...

Er....statistically, I seem to remember the heretics being significantly less the half a race.

I realize that. What I am trying to say is that the only contact of Geth to other council races is most, if not all, by the heretics. So, to a random Turian, Geth just slaughter people. It doesn't help when they tried to help takeover the citadel. Try explaining to him that the Geth are actually very peaceful.

[remydat]

G Kevin wrote...

remydat wrote...

Of course they can. If they don't find the dude who saved the Galaxy credible then just like the Council idiots who didn't want to believe the Reapers were real fu*k them. Throw in a fellow Quarian lending credence to the Hero of the Citadel then yeah sorry. Further, if a white dude robs me, should i assume every white dude wants to rob me? That sounds like a Geth way of thinking and I thought we were suppose to be smarter than that ie judging an entire group based on the actions of different members of the group.

Person who saved the Galaxy from a Geth attack. Funny for someone to have saved the Galaxy from a Geth attack and then suddenly claim their are actually friends.

One "white dude" is not half of a race. That's like an extreme outlier.

remydat wrote...

See this is where I get lost with you guys. You keep seeming to have one set of rules for the Geth and another set for the Quarians. And it is weird because the rules you have for the Geth are more appropriate for an organic race that understands morality better than sentient robots.

I don't get what you are trying to say. What rules?

So you don't think the guy who just wiped out a sh*t load of Geth and saved the Galaxy is credible when he tells you those Geth did not represent the Consensus. We know he has no qualms killing Geth so who would be more Credible. Jesus or whatever God the Quarians believe in?

The line about evil triumphing when good men do nothing as a means to indite the Geth. I responded by noting that good men did nothing when the Quarians tried to kill a peacefule sentient race for no other reason than they exist. If you tell me you agree that statement applies to both situations then fair enough. If you try and excuse good men doing nothing when the Quarians tried to kill the Geth then it is a double standard.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

What are our 2 sets of rules again? I have 1 rule, you join the reapers willingly, you die plain and simple. The geth had there chance once, I met legion an because of the new information he gave me on the Geth and Allowing me to take out the heretics I gave the Geth the benefit of the doubt.then in me3 they pull a 180 on just about everything that legion told me about the geth and they once again join back with the reapers but they want me to betray my allies that had literally just help me kill a reaper, so that the Geth can upload reaper code? Yeah no thanks....Fool me once, shame on you Fool me twice shame on me.

From the Geth perspective was it evil that the Quarians tried to kill them for simply existing?  Where were the good men in that situation?  Or are good men only required when organic life is threatened?

[Iamjdr]

Um no you didn't in the same sentence you Said your self the Geth simpithizing quarians sacrificed themselves to help the Geth how is that doing nothing? What did the Geth do to help the galaxy with the reapers before the end of me3

[JG The Gamer]

My case, I lost Tali to the Collector Base raid. So I had Legion representing the geth, and the quarian admirals. Legion tried to give me every reason possible to trust him/it and the geth. The quarians I found to be erratic and reckless. Even if I wanted to help them, they nearly blew up the geth dreadnought with one of their own admirals still on board (Tali or Xen) which really pissed me off.

So yeah, I sided with the geth. If it was the Geth VI instead, I'm not sure what I'd do.

[G Kevin]

remydat wrote...

So you don't think the guy who just wiped out a sh*t load of Geth and saved the Galaxy is credible when he tells you those Geth did not represent the Consensus. We know he has no qualms killing Geth so who would be more Credible. Jesus or whatever God the Quarians believe in?

It's just very odd. The same person claims Reapers are going to kill everyone and is dismissed by the council for just being crazy. Granted, why would the Quarians ever care about the council ever since they got their embassy evicted from the citadel as punishment.

remydat wrote...

The line about evil triumphing when good men do nothing as a means to indite the Geth. I responded by noting that good men did nothing when the Quarians tried to kill a peacefule sentient race for no other reason than they exist. If you tell me you agree that statement applies to both situations then fair enough. If you try and excuse good men doing nothing when the Quarians tried to kill the Geth then it is a double standard.

I am for peace and all, so I don't exactly agree with attacking the Geth outright. Why the Quarians did it at the time is understandable and their ancestors paid the price. I don't see why the current generation has to. As for the council, they're politicians, I don't expect them to do anything other than stand by their laws.

Modifié par G Kevin, 20 mars 2013 - 01:48 .

[AlexMBrennan]

he Quarian Civilians

These are the good guys amongst the quarians, every bit as good as the peaceful geth. They want peace and it's what they strive for. They are lead by Admiral Koris who is, himself, a man of peace. They want to end hostilities with the geth and just end the war. They don't have any of the hate or bitterness of the quarian military.

That's not what happens. Tali tells them in no uncertain terms that the geth will come back online, and defend themselves with lethal force if necessary. The quarian admiral explicitly denies a request to order a retreat. Any ship could have fled at any point, but the fact that all quarians die implies that there is not a single captain in the entire fleet that cares about the geth or even the lives of their own crew more than killing geth.

And honestly, given that the quarians repeatedly turn out to be a liability and are simply too dumb to live, so I can see the appeal in siding with the geth - there's no telling who the quarians will shoot if there is the possibility of killing geth.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 20 mars 2013 - 01:43 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Um no you didn't in the same sentence you Said your self the Geth simpithizing quarians sacrificed themselves to help the Geth how is that doing nothing? What did the Geth do to help the galaxy with the reapers before the end of me3

Yes those Quarians who died protesting were good men.  Where were the others?  And you forget that Geth Units surrendered and were executed in order to protect those good Quarians.  So you say Quarian and Geth had good men.

THe problem is the evil men of the Quarians won out.   And the evil men of the Council who seek to deny the Geth the right to exist won out as reflected in the Counci laws.  You can't expect the Geth to be good and help fight heretics unless you also advocate that people be good and get the Council to acknowledge their law regarding the synthetics is evil from the perspective of the Geth.  Hence my point about the double edged sword.  Good and evil need to be judged from both the organic and synthetic perspective.  As long as the Council disciminates against synthetics then expecting synthetics to be the better men and assist council races is ridiculous.

[remydat]

G Kevin wrote...

remydat wrote...

So you don't think the guy who just wiped out a sh*t load of Geth and saved the Galaxy is credible when he tells you those Geth did not represent the Consensus. We know he has no qualms killing Geth so who would be more Credible. Jesus or whatever God the Quarians believe in?

It's just very odd. The same person claims Reapers are going to kill everyone and is dismissed by the council for just being crazy. Granted, why would the Quarians ever care about the council ever since they got their embassy evicted from the citadel as punishment.

remydat wrote...

The line about evil triumphing when good men do nothing as a means to indite the Geth. I responded by noting that good men did nothing when the Quarians tried to kill a peacefule sentient race for no other reason than they exist. If you tell me you agree that statement applies to both situations then fair enough. If you try and excuse good men doing nothing when the Quarians tried to kill the Geth then it is a double standard.

I am for peace and all, so I don't exactly agree with attacking the Geth outright. Why the Quarians did it at the time is understandable and their ancestors paid the price. I don't see why the current generation has to. As for the council, their politicians, I don't expect them to do anything other than stand by their laws.

The current generation doesn't pay for their ancestors mistakes.  The current generation if they pay a price pays one for not simply engaging in a conversation with the Geth once they learn from Shep and Tali and the real Geth ie the Consensus that they were not a part of the Heretics.  Again, what is so hard about INVESTIGATING Shepard's and Tali's claims instead of proceeding straight to war.  All they had to do is tell Shepard to ask the Consensus as a show of goodwill whether they would allow them to move back to Rannoch.  Their mistake is not at least opening up a dialogue with the Geth.  Being sceptical is no excuse for not simply having a conversation.  The Geth after 300 years of isolation because of fear of organics are finally open via Legion to opening up a dialogue.  So why not engage them?

People want to bash the Geth for shooting down diplomatic ships when they tried to enter the Veil but then ignore the fact that the Quarians don't even bother to try and engage the Geth in diplomatic negotiations when Shepard or Tali could easily have served as a go between.  Again, double standard (not you but others).

Modifié par remydat, 20 mars 2013 - 01:52 .

[Iamjdr]

Are you serious? For one that quote was in refence to the geth allowing the heretics to join sovereign to go attack the entire galaxy and they did literally nothing to stop them or even warn anyone but that's okay but those quarians that sacrificed them selves to stand up for the Geth mean nothing because it didn't stop the quarians...good men did something even if they failed they atleast tried. Where are the Geths efforts to help? And the quarians lost the morning war. I'm pretty sure they have paid for there mistakes. but the Geth have done literally nothing but cause problems for the ENTIRE galaxy and they some little Angels who can do no wrong? Where were the other Geth while the heretics attacke the citadel? Certantly not sacrificing themselves to protect us.

[G Kevin]

remydat wrote...

The current generation doesn't pay for their ancestors mistakes.  The current generation if they pay a price pays one for not simply engaging in a conversation with the Geth once they learn from Shep and Tali and the real Geth ie the Consensus that they were not a part of the Heretics.  Again, what is so hard about INVESTIGATING Shepard's and Tali's claims instead of proceeding straight to war.  All they had to do is tell Shepard to ask the Consensus as a show of goodwill whether they would allow them to move back to Rannoch.  Their mistake is not at least opening up a dialogue with the Geth.  Being sceptical is no excuse for not simply having a conversation.  The Geth after 300 years of isolation because of fear of organics are finally open via Legion to opening up a dialogue.  So why not engage them?

Because every means of communication with the Geth ends up in nothing. They NEVER reply back. If you send a ship in there, they never comeback. You've got to back up claims with evidence. Legion does helps but is not enough, he is only one Geth unit. Just like your earlier analogy, one friendly Geth unit cannot just simply represent the enitre race.

remydat wrote...

People want to bash the Geth for shooting down diplomatic ships when they tried to enter the Veil but then ignore the fact that the Quarians don't even bother to try and engage the Geth in diplomatic negotiations when Shepard or Tali could easily have served as a go between.  Again, double standard (not you but others).

Weren't there a Quarian admiral who looked for that possibility in ME2? Can't recall, but wasn't he for peace?

EDIT: It was Admiral Koris.

Modifié par G Kevin, 20 mars 2013 - 02:03 .

[Iamjdr]

And by the way the Geth and quarians WERE in contact before the quarians attacked rannoch. And it wasn't until after legion stopped communicating with them that the quarians started there war.

[Phatose]

That's interesting. Source?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Are you serious? For one that quote was in refence to the geth allowing the heretics to join sovereign to go attack the entire galaxy and they did literally nothing to stop them or even warn anyone but that's okay but those quarians that sacrificed them selves to stand up for the Geth mean nothing because it didn't stop the quarians...good men did something even if they failed they atleast tried. Where are the Geths efforts to help? And the quarians lost the morning war. I'm pretty sure they have paid for there mistakes. but the Geth have done literally nothing but cause problems for the ENTIRE galaxy and they some little Angels who can do no wrong? Where were the other Geth while the heretics attacke the citadel? Certantly not sacrificing themselves to protect us.

Yes I know it was.  Does that mean it can only apply when organics are threatened.  And once again, you forget Geth Units surrended in order to protect their creators who protested.  Were those units good. 

My point was no to say the Quarians who died protesting did mean anything. I hold them in the same high regard as the Geth Units who died trying to protect them.  My point was at one time both Quarians and Geth tried to do the right thing but then the militant Quarians won out and that combined with the Council's fear of synthetics means expecting the Geth to try and stop the Heretics in the absence of any concession on the organic side is silly. 

Iamjdr wrote...

And by the way the Geth and quarians WERE in contact before the quarians attacked rannoch. And it wasn't until after legion stopped communicating with them that the quarians started there war.

Tali and Legion were in contact as far as I remember and I don't recall peace being discussed.  It sounded like they kept in touch with each other but neither side thought to ask the other based on Tali and Legion's connection, hey let's make peace.  If there is something I missed let me know.

Modifié par remydat, 20 mars 2013 - 02:07 .

[Only-Twin]

 52 pages now....

Modifié par Only-Twin, 20 mars 2013 - 02:10 .

[remydat]

G Kevin wrote...

remydat wrote...

The current generation doesn't pay for their ancestors mistakes.  The current generation if they pay a price pays one for not simply engaging in a conversation with the Geth once they learn from Shep and Tali and the real Geth ie the Consensus that they were not a part of the Heretics.  Again, what is so hard about INVESTIGATING Shepard's and Tali's claims instead of proceeding straight to war.  All they had to do is tell Shepard to ask the Consensus as a show of goodwill whether they would allow them to move back to Rannoch.  Their mistake is not at least opening up a dialogue with the Geth.  Being sceptical is no excuse for not simply having a conversation.  The Geth after 300 years of isolation because of fear of organics are finally open via Legion to opening up a dialogue.  So why not engage them?

Because every means of communication with the Geth ends up in nothing. They NEVER reply back. If you send a ship in there, they never comeback. You've got to back up claims with evidence. Legion does helps but is not enough, he is only one Geth unit. Just like your earlier analogy, one friendly Geth unit cannot just simply represent the enitre race.

remydat wrote...

People want to bash the Geth for shooting down diplomatic ships when they tried to enter the Veil but then ignore the fact that the Quarians don't even bother to try and engage the Geth in diplomatic negotiations when Shepard or Tali could easily have served as a go between.  Again, double standard (not you but others).

Weren't there a Quarian admiral who looked for that possibility in ME2? Can't recall, but wasn't he for peace?

EDIT: It was Admiral Koris.

I am talking about post ME2 when Tali and Legion are squadmates.  The topic of peace does not seem to have been presented.  Hell, if you do Tali's loyalty mission with Legion, the Quarians point blank could have asked Legion if peace between them could be brokered.  Koris would likely be in favor but I suspect the rest of the Quarians would resist that idea which is my point.  Why?  Why go to war instead of try and have a dialogue now that Tali and Legion have a personal connection.

If you haven't do Tali's loyalty mission with Tali.  It screams missed opportunity for peace talks.

[G Kevin]

remydat wrote...

Tali and Legion were in contact as far as I remember and I don't recall peace being discussed.  It sounded like they kept in touch with each other but neither side thought to ask the other based on Tali and Legion's connection, hey let's make peace.  If there is something I missed let me know.

Well they were working together towards peace. They were building trust by sharing data about each other. It was the first successful step taken in a long time.

[Iamjdr]

What would be the point of tali and legion keeping in contact if they were not attempting to make peace? And you said the quarians didn't try to communicate before they attacked the geth and yet here you are saying they were communicating, but they were just talking about legions new found interest in fishing or something? What small talk would legion and tali be having? And with that quote you keep going back to the morning war when that as I said before was not what I was referring to so ill ask you again.Where were the Geth while the heretics attacked the citadel?

[G Kevin]

remydat wrote...

I am talking about post ME2 when Tali and Legion are squadmates.  The topic of peace does not seem to have been presented.  Hell, if you do Tali's loyalty mission with Legion, the Quarians point blank could have asked Legion if peace between them could be brokered.  Koris would likely be in favor but I suspect the rest of the Quarians would resist that idea which is my point.  Why?  Why go to war instead of try and have a dialogue now that Tali and Legion have a personal connection.

If you haven't do Tali's loyalty mission with Tali.  It screams missed opportunity for peace talks.

Why the Quarian people do nothing? Considering that the Geth have been pretty much likened to devils to the Quarian people, I can understand why none of them want to approach Legion.

Why did the Admirals not ask then and there? Probably because they didn't care about that at the time and saw Legion as just another Geth unit. ( I haven't actually played with Legion in Tali's Loyalty Mission)

In ME3, Korris gave his support to Shepard to engage in a ceasefire upon the Geth. He went against the rest of the Admirals.

[G Kevin]

Only-Twin wrote...

 52 pages now....

Just something to discuss and pass time I guess.

Gotta do something to procrastinate me from doing my Diff. Eq. H.W.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

What would be the point of tali and legion keeping in contact if they were not attempting to make peace? And you said the quarians didn't try to communicate before they attacked the geth and yet here you are saying they were communicating, but they were just talking about legions new found interest in fishing or something? What small talk would legion and tali be having? And with that quote you keep going back to the morning war when that as I said before was not what I was referring to so ill ask you again.Where were the Geth while the heretics attacked the citadel?

They were two people who knew each other because of Shepard.  I think they were talking to each other in secret ie the Quarians would not have agreed with Tali talking to Legion as they still would view the Geth with suspicion.  So I don't think she was talking to him in an official capacity because guys like Gherel and Xen were still to distrustful to believe peace talks was an option.

And I already told you why the Geth did not help.  The Citadel is the seat of Council power.  The council law was that the Geth should not exist.  The Council law helped cause the morning war.  The Geth like any organic specie will not jump to help someone who thinks they should not exist.  Do you think as a black man if a KKK building is burning I will go rushing in and risk my life for KKK members?  Nope, not going to happen.  The Citadel and Council are the equivalent of the KKK for the Geth.  So guess what, screw them.

I hope that is clear now.  The last time any Council Race could expect help from the Geth was the Quarian protesters. After than opportunity passed, there is no reason for the Geth to help the KKK until Shepard comes along in ME2.