remydat wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
Yes. Yes you DO have a prejudice.
You want to know something? I'm a geth synpathiser. No kidding. I support that they were wronged. I support that their treatments formed the isolatinist belief that hurt them in the long run. What I don't support is everyong banging the quarians over something they had no control over, yet give the geth a free pass on it.
And again, HOW many times to I, and others, have to tell you that since NO ONE knew the geth were alive at the time, NO ONE KNEW THAT THE ATTACK WAS TANTAMOUNT TO GENOCIDE. And besides, the Council would have devestated the quarian economy with harsh sanctions over it had they known. The only way the Quarian's could escape the Council's wrath is to eliminate any and all evidence of the mistake. At the time, because again, NO ONE KNEW THEY WERE ALIVE, deactivating geth was seen as no different then deactivating a brainless LOKI mech, or an AVINA V.I. program.
And the geth DID have concepts of morals. In the recordings, we see at least one geth try surrendering itself. They had morals, but when the quarians finally panicked and attacked them full force, they said "screw it" and retaliated foll force. So that "1 year old in war" mentalaty rings completely false here.
And WRONG AGAIN. The quarians murdered NO ONE. They imprisioned, and death was only in the last resort. Those quarians were police officers, and like all officers, the arrest first. Killing is the last resort, and in the case of that bomb, likely unintentional manslaughter. They NEVER murdered any of the protesters, so stop trying to use it as a point.
And look at Xen. Her ideals on the geth not being alive. THAT'S the mindset that the quarian government had before the geth retaliated. They didn't know they were alive, so they didn't see it as murder to "deactivate" them.
And the ONLY reason the geth spared the quarians was because they didn't know the ramafacations of genocide at ALL. Not because it was quarians, but because genocide itself wasn't comprehensible to them yet. THAT'S the only reason the quarians were spared.
And AGAIN, wrong. Those protests ended BEFORE the Morning War, and the entire population turned on the geth after they retaliated and stopped caring about civilian casualties. At that point, when the war was in full swing, there wasn't a quarian that believed in sympathy, with all the sympathisers feeling like fools to trust the geth as they now no longer bothered to discriminate military from civilian. This is why none of the quarians remember this - because all sympathy for the geth was long dead by the time the war was in high gear.
So NO, yoru point is wrong, because at that point all the quarians hated the geth. So NO, I am not giveing a pass. You misunderstood the hsitory again.
And AGAIN, WRONG about semantcis. Just because something mimics life, doesn't mean it IS alive. Look at video games in general. Are the mass of pixials on the screen actual living characters/beings, just because they phantomine being alive in the universe they are portrayed in like a book? Jusy because something mines it, doesn't mean it actually is alive.
And AGAIN, if they had "owned up," then they lost their "right to remain slient" against the Council, in which "anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." The Council would have levied harsh and dibilitating Lawsuits against the quarians for what they did, on top of the scanctions. Their entire sociaty would fall into economic depression, and then all those lives would be dying of poverty anyway. So NO, "owning up" would have fixed absolutly nothing for them. The geth would still be dead (the Council would never let them survive), and the quarians would be exiled into a rouge nation, and still be victum to a large death count from the depression casused by the Council's sanctions.
So NO, there WAS no "silent majroity" for the qaurians, as any and all sympathy died for the geth after they stopped caring about civilians. 'Silent majority" didn't exist for the geth either, because ALL geth are internetworked for consensis. EVERY SINGLE GETH voices their unbiased opinion, which are ALL taken into account to create consensis. Given that, HOW is "silent majoriy" possible when the entire function of geth coinsensis is based on the compsoation of the collective opinions of every single geth?
So you see, " Silent majoriy" ISN'T a factor for EITHER race.
And another thing you do not understand is that the geth you face in the games? They are the same exact geth programs that killed quarians in the Morning War. They are immortal to the ravages of time, remember? These are the same geth that butchered the civilians in their retaliation. The modern quarians are not their acnestors. They see the geth as living beings, and Tali even says that many feel remorsefull for what they did to the geth, and that many actually blame themselves for giving the geth the negitive views they have of organics. Desperation was what drove both sides to what they did, yet you STILL try to preach that the geth had no fault.
And I and DenyonSlayer ALREADY explained SEVERAL TIMES OVER the circumstances of the quarians through 20+ pages.
I will try ONE MORE TIME to get it through.
The quarians are not resorce-efficant. They burn through entire supplies in weeks. Supplies that would last a turian fleet a month will be used up in days by the Migrant fleet, because unlike a turian fleet, which only needs to support 50-60 crew per crusier, the quarians need to support at least 300 per ship. A turian fleet of sixty ships needs to support 3600 people. A quarian group of 300 ships needs to support 90,000 people. And it continues to double and double as you go up. The quarians consume far more then the military ships of the turians do because, unlike the turians, the quarians are carring 17 million people with them whereever they go, consuming more then 20-30 times the resources that a single turian fleet does, making the quarians a massive burden on the already-strained turian supply lines - the very supply lines they were brought in to reinforce. This hurts humans as well, as it hampers turian responce time and rediness.
And the quarians were mostly scavenging food and resources, but sterilized nutriant paste created from dextro plant extract, syntheticly grown in artifical greenhouses, doesn't do much for them. Especally since many of the base plant sample the qarians have are imported. And those food supplies are small, as there is a finite amount of room to store resources onborad the ships, since most of the space is taken up by the quarians themselves. The remaining cargo space is then split between food, fuel storage, medical supplies, raw minerals used to fabricate repair and patch mateials for fixing ships. The resources are carefully balanced, and are always on the tipping point on a dayle basis. Every day it's unstable.
How much worse do you think that gets when they are forced into war? Supplies get lopsided, meaning there are shortages of certin things at critical times, which can become fatal. They live tottering on the brink in peace time. War would destroy the barely-intact balance the have. The only reason the went into war agains the geth wa because they had a viral weapon that would blind the geth so badly that the geth would never be able to fire a single shot back. Therefore, there was little risk. I mean, look how fast they crumbled when they were forced into a frontial fight.
And like I said above, owning up would not have changed anything. The Council would have come in and killed the geth themselves, and the quarians would have been driven to total poverty by the economic depression caused by the Council's sanctions and censorship. And if they tried, the geth would have likely responded to the Council forces just as viloently, and then the Council wound pound them and cause far more colateral damage then there already would have been.
"Being a mature adult" would have been singing the death warrents of their entire middle and lower classes. You are really going to fault them because they didn't want their lower classes to fall into a third world-sytle depression? Because I think trying to ensure your people have any chance at a future which avoides that fate superceeds personal pride.
And AGAIN, no one saw the geth as anything more then machines that were parroting words they didn't understand.
Just saying.
I mean, if your people - you entire culture - was dependant on the fate of someone else, regardless of the position, would you really throw away the future of your entire country and culture for another? When you are in a position of leadership, you HAVE to put your own people's welfare ahead of anothers. That's why they put you in that position in the first place.
It wasn't cowardace, and it wasn't karma. It was simple desperation.
And after all, one can also say that the geth's servitude to the Reapers was "karma" getting them back by putting them in the same life they rebelled from. Right?
So NO, I am not the one that's confused here. You are doing the exact same thing you accuse ME of doing, except for the geth. You are acting like the geth's reason's excuse their actions, but that it's not the same for the quarians, which is prejudiced.
I think therefore for I am. That is what Rene Des Cartes said and that is how I judge life. The minute the Geth could ponder their existence, their creators no longer have the right to decide whether they can live or die. Neither does the Council. You keep acting like I or the Geth have to judge the Quarians based on whether the Quarians or Council thought the Geth were alive. I and the Geth don't. When that video game you mention begs me not to destroy, it is no longer a video game. I don't need to go check my Council manual and run all sorts of scenarios to arrive at that simple conclusion. I think therefore I am. A video game does not think, it processess. Asking me not to destroy is indicative of thought ie you are pondering your very existence. Simple. You are free to form your own opinion.
A child if it can will show concern and protect it's mom. That doesn't mean it has the same morality as an adult. The Geth wanted to protect it's mom (their creators) so it surrendered itself. Their mom was killed anyway. When the Quarians turned on them en masse then they had no reason to do anything but kill the threat. Find me a passage where it says the Quarians explained to the Geth this concept of civilains versus military? Or that the Quarians explained to the Geth how Quarian society worked. They were tools. I don't explain to my computer human society and concepts. The Geth understood a Creator who sought to protect them and a Creator who sought to kill them. The Creators who sought to kill them won the day and from that point the Quarian consensus decided the Geth needed to be killed and the Geth responded. And the silent majority for the Geth was a reference to the Geth who stayed behind the Veil and did nothing to stop the Heretics. The Heretics and thoe Geth are not the same.
And again I will ask the question. Where are they getting this food from as they war with the Geth? Why can't they get this seem food while providing air support for their allies? I understand their resource contraints. I am saying you position that after 300 years of living with those resource contraints and while being able to engage in a way with the Geth on those resource contrainst, it makes no sense that they couldn't have instead of fighting the Geth providing support to their allies. Does the food disappear if they are fighting Reapers instead of Geth?
And once again, after the experience in ME2, why don't they just ask the Geth if they can make peace and return? Simple question. Doesn't require a single life to be risked. Unless you can find me a single reference to the Quarians asking that question then how are they not using War as a first solution when I thought you said killing or war should be as a last resort? There is your double standard.
As for the consequences, guess what tough luck. Next time get up off your lazy a** and do it useful instead of creating a machine to do it. They knew they risk. They took precautions but their fu*ked up. That's life bro. What defines a hero or a coward is what they do with it. Trying to kill the mistake when that mistake is intelligent enough to ask why it has to do ends all sympathy in my book. The Geth didn't ask the Quarians to fu*k up. You basically are crying about the Quarians potentially being punished for their own mistakes as if that justifies them killing the Geth. It doesn't. And it is murder because the Geth think it is. Doesn't matter one iota what Quarians or the Council thinks as it is no longer their decision to make.
Again, you are perfectly entitled to disagree but you are not changing my opinion. I think therefore I am. No one is going to convince me that anyone has the right to kill something that can beg for an explanation as to why it must die.
Animals think too. Doens't make them sapiant. And if you think, that means you need to have a concince.
And that's all
irrelevent, as that idea of yours STILL doesn't apply to the geth, as they
have no individuals, until AFTER being augmented by Reaper code.
Besides, AGAIN FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME, no one knew the geth were sapiant to BEGIN WITH. WHY do you think the quarians were so gung-ho about the extermination to begin with? They wouldn't have hit so hard if they knew the geth were sapiant. It wasn't intented to be genocide, since NO ONE KNEW of the geth's sapiance, therefore they were not seen as anything more then fancy mechs, and therefore, machines that didn't have free will. So STOP with this BS. If the quarians knew the geth were sapiant, things might have been different. But they DIDN'T, so stop saying they did. No one has the right to judge living beings, but what about when you DON'T KNOW they are living beings? What then? Me and DenyonSlayer have spent 40+ pages trying to get the notion through to you without sucess. The quarians went off the information they had at the time, which had NOTHING indicating that the geth were sentiant. Pahntomimeing life, maybe, but NOTHING that showed they were sapiant.
And incorrcect. The geth are the servents in a household. They were "brought up" by the heads of house to be nothing more and nothing less then servents.
And they didn't NEED to explain. The geth had full access to the extranet and the quarians ancestoral archives. They had all the information and definition they needed, so that point rings completely false. They were pre-programed with information about their culture. After all, they would make a poor servent race without that information.
The protestors resisted the government agains shutting off the geth
souly because they were tools to advance the culture. No one was protecting the geth because they saw the geth as living beings. They were protecting the geth because they saw them as necessary tools needed to advance the economy and industry. Only a FEW ever saw them as more, but the majority of protesters never saw them as alive. NO ONE knew they were truly sapiant till after the retaliation against the quarian attack.
And since the geth accepted the Reaper upgrades at the end of the Rannoch arch and did exactally what the Heretics wanted to do, they followed the Heretic's path anyway. So YES, they are the same breed. As much the same race as Cerberus and the Alliance are to each-other - comprised of the same race.
And it's wrong for the Alliance to not take responcibility for it's extremeists, yet the geth get a free pass for doing the same. You yourself say people should fess up. The geth should have done so then, by
your own logic. And I ALREADY RESPONDED. They DON'T have proper food as they fight the geth. That's why they are so desperate to end the war quickly - because they
don't have the resources for a long, drawn-out conflict. They expected the geth to fall in less then a few days. They never expected the Reaper upgrades. Or to be trapped in the Tikkun system, under constant attack on all fronts. The whole
point is that they cannot last, which is the
entire reason Shepard is called in at all. The food is already strained by having to constantly balance it out between other resources. Wartime throws that all into chaos, and makes things ever harder to maintain.
And as they are launching an attack, most of the food storage is likely replaced by medical and repair material storage. They probably didn't bother stockpiling lots of food for the invasion, because they expected to have a whole
planet of food within days. They didn't expect the weeks-long beating by the Reaper-infused geth.
And they TRIED. Tali tried to make the attempt, but no one thought the geth could be trusted after the Battle of the Citadel. Gerrel wasn't willing to trust a race that, from what the wider galaxy believed, were allied with the Reapers. Raan thought that there was too much bad blood for any peace to be formed. Xen never saw the geth as alive to begin with and didn't take it serious. Koris was the only one that agreed.
And before anything could continue from there,
Legion - not the quarians,
Legion - cut all contact because the geth were making preperations for defense. Tali never brought the possibility up again because Legion never got back into contact with her.
So DEAD WRONG. NO DOUBLE STANDARD PRESANT.
TRY AGAIN.
And if that's yoru belief, then go to a car factory, tell that same sentance to the forman, and be
promptly dragged to th
e completely automated factoring and assembly lines, and be lectured about how impossible that is.
Automation is part of indistruy. It's as necessessary as evolution itself. Find me a modern factory
right here on Earth that isn't automated in one way or another.
Machine assistance and automatic industry is what all races strive to achive. You can't fault the quarians for something that
we ourselves strive to do day and night. They had absolutly NO CLUE about the risks. They would never have attempted if they did. They thought it WAS completely safe, because the geth were built as basic V.I.s, NO DIFFERENT then the AVINA V.I. on the Citadel.
And AGAIN, you IGNORE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD. The quarians had no clue about the geth's sapiance, and even if they did, the Council would never have allowed the geth to live. What you FAIL to comprehend is that even if the geth were accepted by the quarians, they would never be accepted by the Council. If the quarians actiually HAD reconized them as living beings, the Council would have seen it as treason, and would have likely declared
war on both, and wiped out the geth and left the quarians despondant.
Had the quarians fessed up to the Council, then the Council would have attacked, wiped out the geth, and made the quarians lives complete hell.
NONE of your convaluted assumptions would have worked. The Council would have killed the geth anyway in your scenarios. You REALLY think that someone would trade the future of their entire race,
for a group that no one knows is even alive?.
Get real.
And "I think therefore I am,"
doens't even HAVE any bearing on the geth, because they AREN'T individuals. Not till the Reaper's go to town on them. So NO, that has NOTHING to do with them.
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