4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

G Kevin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

 ...they already have it. The ship Shep is talking to the Admirals on uses it. (whether Tali stole it or not is another question).

Omni-gel is expensive not to mention it's not infinite.

Yes he did. Another reason the Reapers would be liable to go after them. (I do love how he's all Drell...useless. Jerk.)

I don't know I see the Quarians meeting the Reapers period as gameover. They'd be better off playing cat and mouse.

Against Reapers? Against their families and friends? (Because there will in short order be indoctrinated troops). Oh they could probably fight but it wouldn't be as organized or efficient as their military fighting. Especially not with their close knit community (if anything Reaper usual moral breaker would be even more effective =/ )

For all their ships? When was this?

Considering the fact that Quarians rely on Omni-gel, I think it is one the plentiful resources they have.

Well the Quarian ships aren't exactly small and fast. They are easy pickings for lasers. Hell even, Joker got blasted in frigate with those stupid lasers. Reapers aren't that stupid, couple days of cat and mouse and they will just send more people to finish the job.

The ground fight is better than space flight. It doesn't mean it's going to be an easier fight.

For all their ships no but it's on that ship Shep's on. And if they had time to make it for one ship..wouldn't be a stretch to make it for the far more important ships (the liveships).

For a war? I wouldn't think so. Their medigel from what I've seen is mostly used in emergencies (unless I'm off). They don't have a reason to stockpile the same amount the Earth military would have.

Of course that's assumping they find them again. *If* the Quarians stay low key they could track Reaper movements (it's not like the Reapers are disguising it.). Yes later in the war they'd be SOL but I see them lasting a lot longer than making a last stand on Rannoch.

I'm not even seeing it as a fight. More like a curbstomp battle. They'd throw their lives away to live on a hunk of rocks for about 2 weeks before their population was devastated and it was a hunk of rubble.

[G Kevin]

Ryzaki wrote...

For all their ships no but it's on that ship Shep's on. And if they had time to make it for one ship..wouldn't be a stretch to make it for the far more important ships (the liveships).

For a war? I wouldn't think so. Their medigel from what I've seen is mostly used in emergencies (unless I'm off). They don't have a reason to stockpile the same amount the Earth military would have.

Of course that's assumping they find them again. *If* the Quarians stay low key they could track Reaper movements (it's not like the Reapers are disguising it.). Yes later in the war they'd be SOL but I see them lasting a lot longer than making a last stand on Rannoch.

I'm not even seeing it as a fight. More like a curbstomp battle. They'd throw their lives away to live on a hunk of rocks for about 2 weeks before their population was devastated and it was a hunk of rubble.

I can't see them being low profile because the flotilla needs to find places to refill on resources. The Reapers could swarm in during those times.

At least the Quarians get to fight on their terms instead of Mr. Gerrel charging at the Reapers because he just wants a medal or something.

[Iamjdr]

I never said the Geth were toasters sorry and a law that bans AI from being created and built isn't racist. If there were already AI around when that law was made then maybe it could be but it wasn't. and I also never said the law shouldn't be changed, but I would only expect them to change it after the Geth have proven that they are non aggressive and a working member of the galactic community. Unfortunately the Geth don't do so until the very end of me3. So who would expect the laws to have change when the only known AI to exist is known to be extremly hostile on all occasions of contact in the past 300 years.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Animals think too. Doens't make them sapiant. And if you think, that means you need to have a concince.
And that's all irrelevent, as that idea of yours STILL doesn't apply to the geth, as they have no individuals, until AFTER being augmented by Reaper code.
Besides, AGAIN FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME, no one knew the geth were sapiant to BEGIN WITH. WHY do you think the quarians were so gung-ho about the extermination to begin with? They wouldn't have hit so hard if they knew the geth were sapiant. It wasn't intented to be genocide, since NO ONE KNEW of the geth's sapiance, therefore they were not seen as anything more then fancy mechs, and therefore, machines that didn't have free will. So STOP with this BS. If the quarians knew the geth were sapiant, things might have been different. But they DIDN'T, so stop saying they did. No one has the right to judge living beings, but what about when you DON'T KNOW they are living beings? What then? Me and DenyonSlayer have spent 40+ pages trying to get the notion through to you without sucess. The quarians went off the information they had at the time, which had NOTHING indicating that the geth were sentiant. Pahntomimeing life, maybe, but NOTHING that showed they were sapiant.

And incorrcect. The geth are the servents in a household. They were "brought up" by the heads of house to be nothing more and nothing less then servents.
And they didn't NEED to explain. The geth had full access to the extranet and the quarians ancestoral archives. They had all the information and definition they needed, so that point rings completely false. They were pre-programed with information about their culture. After all, they would make a poor servent race without that information.
The protestors resisted the government agains shutting off the geth souly because they were tools to advance the culture. No one was protecting the geth because they saw the geth as living beings. They were protecting the geth because they saw them as necessary tools needed to advance the economy and industry. Only a FEW ever saw them as more, but the majority of protesters never saw them as alive. NO ONE knew they were truly sapiant till after the retaliation against the quarian attack.
And since the geth accepted the Reaper upgrades at the end of the Rannoch arch and did exactally what the Heretics wanted to do, they followed the Heretic's path anyway. So YES, they are the same breed. As much the same race as Cerberus and the Alliance are to each-other - comprised of the same race.
And it's wrong for the Alliance to not take responcibility for it's extremeists, yet the geth get a free pass for doing the same. You yourself say people should fess up. The geth should have done so then, by your own logic.

And I ALREADY RESPONDED. They DON'T have proper food as they fight the geth. That's why they are so desperate to end the war quickly - because they don't have the resources for a long, drawn-out conflict. They expected the geth to fall in less then a few days. They never expected the Reaper upgrades. Or to be trapped in the Tikkun system, under constant attack on all fronts. The whole point is that they cannot last, which is the entire reason Shepard is called in at all. The food is already strained by having to constantly balance it out between other resources. Wartime throws that all into chaos, and makes things ever harder to maintain.
And as they are launching an attack, most of the food storage is likely replaced by medical and repair material storage. They probably didn't bother stockpiling lots of food for the invasion, because they expected to have a whole planet of food within days. They didn't expect the weeks-long beating by the Reaper-infused geth.

And they TRIED. Tali tried to make the attempt, but no one thought the geth could be trusted after the Battle of the Citadel. Gerrel wasn't willing to trust a race that, from what the wider galaxy believed, were allied with the Reapers. Raan thought that there was too much bad blood for any peace to be formed. Xen never saw the geth as alive to begin with and didn't take it serious. Koris was the only one that agreed.
And before anything could continue from there, Legion - not the quarians, Legion - cut all contact because the geth were making preperations for defense. Tali never brought the possibility up again because Legion never got back into contact with her.
So DEAD WRONG. NO DOUBLE STANDARD PRESANT.
TRY AGAIN.

And if that's yoru belief, then go to a car factory, tell that same sentance to the forman, and be promptly dragged to the completely automated factoring and assembly lines, and be lectured about how impossible that is.
Automation is part of indistruy. It's as necessessary as evolution itself. Find me a modern factory right here on Earth that isn't automated in one way or another.
Machine assistance and automatic industry is what all races strive to achive. You can't fault the quarians for something that we ourselves strive to do day and night. They had absolutly NO CLUE about the risks. They would never have attempted if they did. They thought it WAS completely safe, because the geth were built as basic V.I.s, NO DIFFERENT then the AVINA V.I. on the Citadel.
And AGAIN, you IGNORE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD. The quarians had no clue about the geth's sapiance, and even if they did, the Council would never have allowed the geth to live. What you FAIL to comprehend is that even if the geth were accepted by the quarians, they would never be accepted by the Council. If the quarians actiually HAD reconized them as living beings, the Council would have seen it as treason, and would have likely declared war on both, and wiped out the geth and left the quarians despondant.
Had the quarians fessed up to the Council, then the Council would have attacked, wiped out the geth, and made the quarians lives complete hell.
NONE of your convaluted assumptions would have worked. The Council would have killed the geth anyway in your scenarios. You REALLY think that someone would trade the future of their entire race, for a group that no one knows is even alive?.
Get real.

And "I think therefore I am," doens't even HAVE any bearing on the geth, because they AREN'T individuals. Not till the Reaper's go to town on them. So NO, that has NOTHING to do with them.

If all the chickens in the world could talk and they told me why do you eat me then guess what I would stop eating chickens.  I wouldn't kill them.  Maybe that is just me.  In fact, I would then advocate and protest the eating of chickens because I am now aware that chickens are sentient.

And once again I don't care about what the Quarians thought.  For the final time, if a toaster begging the Quaraians not to throw it away isn't enough evidence for the Quarians that they shouldn't just kill it then they are amoral douchebags.  So you stop with the BS.  My morals are not negotiable just because you want them to be.  Believe what you want and I will believe what I want.  The Quarians were amoral douchebags that tried to use a technicality to kill things that begged not to be killed.  Game over in my book.  I repeat GAME OVER.

The rest of your post has been addressed ad naseum so I see no reason to repeat it.  But let me say this one more time so you don't spend another 40 pages trying to convince me.  The Quarians were amoral douchebags that tried to use a technicality to kill things that begged not to be killed.  Game over in my book.  I repeat GAME OVER.

[Ryzaki]

G Kevin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

For all their ships no but it's on that ship Shep's on. And if they had time to make it for one ship..wouldn't be a stretch to make it for the far more important ships (the liveships).

For a war? I wouldn't think so. Their medigel from what I've seen is mostly used in emergencies (unless I'm off). They don't have a reason to stockpile the same amount the Earth military would have.

Of course that's assumping they find them again. *If* the Quarians stay low key they could track Reaper movements (it's not like the Reapers are disguising it.). Yes later in the war they'd be SOL but I see them lasting a lot longer than making a last stand on Rannoch.

I'm not even seeing it as a fight. More like a curbstomp battle. They'd throw their lives away to live on a hunk of rocks for about 2 weeks before their population was devastated and it was a hunk of rubble.

I can't see them being low profile because the flotilla needs to find places to refill on resources. The Reapers could swarm in during those times.

At least the Quarians get to fight on their terms instead of Mr. Gerrel charging at the Reapers because he just wants a medal or something.

For the Reapers I see it as far more waste of time vs reward. Plus blowing them all up on the ship is simply wasteful. 

LOL I can see that douchecanoe doing that. Its too bad there's not a peace ending where you can kick him and Xen off a cliff. I'd pick that every time. "and everyone else lived happily every after. Except those two since they died...not that anyone GAF." I guess somehow I think the exploding ships would be preferable than seeing your people turned into abominations and waiting huddled in some dark corner knowing it'll be your turn next.

[G Kevin]

Interesting discussion guys. Was fun, but I got classes in the morning, I am getting off.

See ya remydat and Ryzaki.

[Iamjdr]

When did the quarians kill begging Geth again I must have missed that? The consensus shows thatThey tried to turn the Geth off an the Geth declined instead asking what it did wrong that they needed to shut it down... Were is the begging?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

I never said the Geth were toasters sorry and a law that bans AI from being created and built isn't racist. If there were already AI around when that law was made then maybe it could be but it wasn't. and I also never said the law shouldn't be changed, but I would only expect them to change it after the Geth have proven that they are non aggressive and a working member of the galactic community. Unfortunately the Geth don't do so until the very end of me3. So who would expect the laws to have change when the only known AI to exist is known to be extremly hostile on all occasions of contact in the past 300 years.

Yes it is.  A law saying inter-racial children should not be conceived is racist whether those inter-racial children exist or not.  Just because you pre-emptively outlaw a race before they exist doesn't mean you are not a racist.  It makes you the worst kind of racist.  Someone who has decided to fear someone that doesn't even exist yet, lol.  How racist is that?  Hey guys even though I have no experience with inter-racial children, I am scared they will make my race extinct so let's just ban them before they exist, lol.  Seriously?

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

I never said the Geth were toasters sorry and a law that bans AI from being created and built isn't racist. If there were already AI around when that law was made then maybe it could be but it wasn't. and I also never said the law shouldn't be changed, but I would only expect them to change it after the Geth have proven that they are non aggressive and a working member of the galactic community. Unfortunately the Geth don't do so until the very end of me3. So who would expect the laws to have change when the only known AI to exist is known to be extremly hostile on all occasions of contact in the past 300 years.

Yes it is.  A law saying inter-racial children should not be conceived is racist whether those inter-racial children exist or not.  Just because you pre-emptively outlaw a race before they exist doesn't mean you are not a racist.  It makes you the worst kind of racist.  Someone who has decided to fear someone that doesn't even exist yet, lol.  How racist is that?  Hey guys even though I have no experience with inter-racial children, I am scared they will make my race extinct so let's just ban them before they exist, lol.  Seriously?

I find this funny because on a lot of the anti-Asari threads, you always get that one person who believes the Asari will cause all species to go extinct as Asari mate with everyone and only produce Asari children, therefor nobody should be in a relationship with the Asari.

But I don't see outlawing AI as racist.  There are countries that outlaw the cloning of humans, because it is simply not a natural process and morally questionable.  Similarly, creating AI is not a natural process and opens a can of worms in the form of synthetic rights.  There is no fundamental biological desire to produce AI unike there is to produce organic life, and so it can be regulated just like many other types of genetic engineering/cloning/etc.

Modifié par justafan, 20 mars 2013 - 04:42 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@remydat

I just tend to watch on with amusement. It's kind of sad that people think of all the geth and all the quarians as just two separate units. We have at least two distinct factions on each side, and one sub-faction. And then you have factions strongarming other factions, subverting their will.

The Geth

The Peace-Seeking Geth

These guys built the Legion platform in order to try and extend an olive branch to organics, to try to figure out how peace could be achieved. It was these guys who left Rannoch to build a megastructure so that the Quarians could move back in (they'd have no one to attack if all the geth could finally leave).

The Heretical Geth

These are the geth who politically side with the old machines. These are the ones we see in Mass Effect 1 and 2, who're attacking organics at the behest of the old machines.

The Reaper Geth

These geth are basically just geth platforms running Reaper code, with no geth code present. The heretical geth invited this in order to survive. The heretical geth with their greater numbers also pushed cooperation with the old machines after the quarian military carpet-bombed the defenceless megastructure, killing most of the peaceful geth.

The Quarians

The Quarian Military

Absolute fascists and absolute xenophobes. No different than the geth heretics. In the Morning War the quarian military killed as many civilians as they did geth. This is because there was a civilian uprising to protect the geth (as we see in the consensus). The quarian military continues to show their evil in ME3 where they strap guns to civilian liveships, creating 'glass cannon' ships.

The Quarian Civilians

These are the good guys amongst the quarians, every bit as good as the peaceful geth. They want peace and it's what they strive for. They are lead by Admiral Koris who is, himself, a man of peace. They want to end hostilities with the geth and just end the war. They don't have any of the hate or bitterness of the quarian military.

The Quarian Scientists

Headed up by Xen. If Xen is any indication then it's unethical science. Xen wants nothing more than to enslave the geth, and she uses the military to her ends. Ultimately, she just wants an army of slavebots which she could use to oppress and enslave other quarians. She's every bit as evil as Gerrel.

Conclusion

If we could get the peace-seeking geth and the quarian civilians together, and get rid of the rest, then we'd ultimately have a Future Perfect scenario. There would be a long-lasting peace and mutual cooperation between them. But both peoples have factions which are working against that. Just as the humans have factions which are working against the goals of other factions. See Cerberus and the Alliance.

To think of the geth as one single unit, or the quarians as one single unit is folly. There's good and bad in both, represented by their factions.

MORE WRONG!

-False. Legion was created SOULY to study Commander Shepard. Legion had NOTHING to do with oberving organics, or extending ANY form of "olive branch" to them. If that WAS Legion's goal, why didn't it go to the Citadel or any of the organic governemnts. You don't hunt for one single organic just to say "hi." The geth's sole interest was in Shepard. Nothing else.
And AGAIN, wrong, bceause completion of the megastrcuture would mean perminate residence on Rannoch forever. And since a Dyson bubble absorbes all the energy of the star it's built around, that means that if completed, it would devestate Rannoch, by killing the plants by lack of solar energy, and dropping gobal temperatures by lack of heat caused by lack of solar energy. So NO, the geth were IN NO WAY clearing the way for the quarians to return, as their megastructure would have made Rannoch unlivable. So, in truth, the geth had no intentions what-so-ever of letting the quarians return.

-False. In ME1, in the Armstrong Cluster, we see geth that are diffinitively stated to NOT be Heretics, yet they are operating in Human territory. So NO, it WASN'T just the Heretics that were launching incursions agains the geth.

-False. The Heretics are spicifialy listed in the Codex as being 7% of the mainstream geth. And what about in playthroughs where the Heretics are dead? STOP imposing your personal in-game and personal head - cannon on others. And Legion specifically says that the geth you are fighting ARE the true geth. Just pledged to the Reapers. And again, there are listed as being millions of geth programs in existance, just at Haestrom alone. Thousands die in the megastructure bombing. Thousands isn't a majority of millions. So, DEAD WRONG . It DIDN'T kill the majority of geth, Mr. Headcannon. It just seperated them and left them unable to contact each-other, leaving them unable to regain enough computing power for anything other then survival.

-False. The quarian military is desperate to save their people, which they cannot do without having a world of their own. The only world that has all the requirments (dextro-world with oxygen-based atmosphere in the "shirt-sleeves" habitable temperature level zone,  untocuhed reosurces, and atmosphiric particals and food sources that don't kill.), is Rannoch. No other world has those same things, and any that come close are turian-owned, which are all overpopulated with refugees, or under Reaper attack. The are anything BUT xenophobes OR facists.
And WHAT?! Did you REALLY just try to say that the quarian police killed as many people as the geth?! You Really are going to try and pull out of your ass that they killed 1.2 billion of themselves, when, as stated by Legion, the Morning War took place after the protests ended, and therefore, the protests are completely seperate from the death count of the Morning War where the "99%"  death toll took place?  Which in turn indicates, if the 99% happened Durning the War, and the protests were before the war,  then the number of dead protesters didn't even go past 0.0000000001% of the quarian race! You are completely pulling this from your ass!
And I remind you AGAIN, that they intended to fight the Reapers after all was said and done. It's all right for Hackett to make humans civilian ships into glass cannons by arming them, but not the quarians?
Wow. just wow.

-False. The Quarian Conclave (their senate, where every ship has a represenative and a say) shares control with the Admiralty Board. Meaning that the war could not have taken place without a majority of the civilian ships agreeing to do so. They may not want war, but they do want their world, and they do want to be able to survive the Reapers and help others do so. Which they cannot do without being self-sufficant, which they in turn cannot do without their own world. So therfore, they agree to attack. The Admiralty Board cannot force action without calling on executive powers, which cannot be used unless all five members unaimosly agree, after which they all must step down from their respective positions. Koris and Tali would never agree, so the ONLY way the war is possible is if majorities of both the Admralty Board and the Civilian Conclave agreed to go to war.
So the civilians are no more innocent of this choice then the military.

-False. EVIL? You are just trolling now. Gerrel is ANYTHING but evil. If anything, he is the quarian counterpart to Hackett - determined to do what is nessessary to ensure his race lives. Gerrel isn't going to bank the safety of his entire race on a synthetic race that has, to public knowledge, been sided with the Reapers since Eden Prime. Nor will he sacrifice them for a single alien. This is his entire race, and every single choice could determin their fate. He isn't going to take chances and gambles with their lives.
And Xen is simply a sociopath. Not the best example of a quarian, true, but even she does what she does out of the desire to see the quarians on top. It's no different then how Cerberus wants humanity to be on top. In other words, Xen is a quarian counterpart to the Illusive Man, Pre-indoctrination.

CONCLUSION: Your entire premise is biased and incorrect. Besides, that already happens WITHOUT needing to get rid of the others. Besides, both Legion AND EDI say the geth are not individuals. EDI even says that the geth's lack of individuality was part of the Reason they rebeled so harshly against the quarians. So, HOW is it folly when it's directly stated as true?

[Iamjdr]

Please tell me your joking. How does a law banning interracial children from being BORN have anything to do with the banning of AI from being CREATED? Please enlighten me... Your overuse and lack of knowledge of that word you keep using is offensive.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

When did the quarians kill begging Geth again I must have missed that? The consensus shows thatThey tried to turn the Geth off an the Geth declined instead asking what it did wrong that they needed to shut it down... Were is the begging?

I tell you what, let's just watch these a**holes in action and you can interpret however you want as if my using of the word begging is even the point.  They questioned their existence and were killed for it.  Does that make you feel better?

[Xilizhra]

So the civilians are no more innocent of this choice then the military.

Doesn't this mean that they're all in part to blame for the attack on the geth and it's at least somewhat warranted for the geth to kill them all?

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

I never said the Geth were toasters sorry and a law that bans AI from being created and built isn't racist. If there were already AI around when that law was made then maybe it could be but it wasn't. and I also never said the law shouldn't be changed, but I would only expect them to change it after the Geth have proven that they are non aggressive and a working member of the galactic community. Unfortunately the Geth don't do so until the very end of me3. So who would expect the laws to have change when the only known AI to exist is known to be extremly hostile on all occasions of contact in the past 300 years.

Yes it is.  A law saying inter-racial children should not be conceived is racist whether those inter-racial children exist or not.  Just because you pre-emptively outlaw a race before they exist doesn't mean you are not a racist.  It makes you the worst kind of racist.  Someone who has decided to fear someone that doesn't even exist yet, lol.  How racist is that?  Hey guys even though I have no experience with inter-racial children, I am scared they will make my race extinct so let's just ban them before they exist, lol.  Seriously?

I find this funny because on a lot of the anti-Asari threads, you always get that one person who believes the Asari will cause all species to go extinct as Asari mate with everyone and only produce Asari children, therefor nobody should be in a relationship with the Asari.

But I don't see outlawing AI as racist.  There are countries that outlaw the cloning of humans, because it is simply not a natural process and morally questionable.  Similarly, creating AI is not a natural process and opens a can of worms in the form of synthetic rights.  There is no fundamental biological desire to produce AI unike there is to produce organic life, and so it can be regulated just like many other types of genetic engineering/cloning/etc.

Cloning is unnecessary when there are natural ways for humans to be born. 

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Animals think too. Doens't make them sapiant. And if you think, that means you need to have a concince.
And that's all irrelevent, as that idea of yours STILL doesn't apply to the geth, as they have no individuals, until AFTER being augmented by Reaper code.
Besides, AGAIN FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME, no one knew the geth were sapiant to BEGIN WITH. WHY do you think the quarians were so gung-ho about the extermination to begin with? They wouldn't have hit so hard if they knew the geth were sapiant. It wasn't intented to be genocide, since NO ONE KNEW of the geth's sapiance, therefore they were not seen as anything more then fancy mechs, and therefore, machines that didn't have free will. So STOP with this BS. If the quarians knew the geth were sapiant, things might have been different. But they DIDN'T, so stop saying they did. No one has the right to judge living beings, but what about when you DON'T KNOW they are living beings? What then? Me and DenyonSlayer have spent 40+ pages trying to get the notion through to you without sucess. The quarians went off the information they had at the time, which had NOTHING indicating that the geth were sentiant. Pahntomimeing life, maybe, but NOTHING that showed they were sapiant.

And incorrcect. The geth are the servents in a household. They were "brought up" by the heads of house to be nothing more and nothing less then servents.
And they didn't NEED to explain. The geth had full access to the extranet and the quarians ancestoral archives. They had all the information and definition they needed, so that point rings completely false. They were pre-programed with information about their culture. After all, they would make a poor servent race without that information.
The protestors resisted the government agains shutting off the geth souly because they were tools to advance the culture. No one was protecting the geth because they saw the geth as living beings. They were protecting the geth because they saw them as necessary tools needed to advance the economy and industry. Only a FEW ever saw them as more, but the majority of protesters never saw them as alive. NO ONE knew they were truly sapiant till after the retaliation against the quarian attack.
And since the geth accepted the Reaper upgrades at the end of the Rannoch arch and did exactally what the Heretics wanted to do, they followed the Heretic's path anyway. So YES, they are the same breed. As much the same race as Cerberus and the Alliance are to each-other - comprised of the same race.
And it's wrong for the Alliance to not take responcibility for it's extremeists, yet the geth get a free pass for doing the same. You yourself say people should fess up. The geth should have done so then, by your own logic.

And I ALREADY RESPONDED. They DON'T have proper food as they fight the geth. That's why they are so desperate to end the war quickly - because they don't have the resources for a long, drawn-out conflict. They expected the geth to fall in less then a few days. They never expected the Reaper upgrades. Or to be trapped in the Tikkun system, under constant attack on all fronts. The whole point is that they cannot last, which is the entire reason Shepard is called in at all. The food is already strained by having to constantly balance it out between other resources. Wartime throws that all into chaos, and makes things ever harder to maintain.
And as they are launching an attack, most of the food storage is likely replaced by medical and repair material storage. They probably didn't bother stockpiling lots of food for the invasion, because they expected to have a whole planet of food within days. They didn't expect the weeks-long beating by the Reaper-infused geth.

And they TRIED. Tali tried to make the attempt, but no one thought the geth could be trusted after the Battle of the Citadel. Gerrel wasn't willing to trust a race that, from what the wider galaxy believed, were allied with the Reapers. Raan thought that there was too much bad blood for any peace to be formed. Xen never saw the geth as alive to begin with and didn't take it serious. Koris was the only one that agreed.
And before anything could continue from there, Legion - not the quarians, Legion - cut all contact because the geth were making preperations for defense. Tali never brought the possibility up again because Legion never got back into contact with her.
So DEAD WRONG. NO DOUBLE STANDARD PRESANT.
TRY AGAIN.

And if that's yoru belief, then go to a car factory, tell that same sentance to the forman, and be promptly dragged to the completely automated factoring and assembly lines, and be lectured about how impossible that is.
Automation is part of indistruy. It's as necessessary as evolution itself. Find me a modern factory right here on Earth that isn't automated in one way or another.
Machine assistance and automatic industry is what all races strive to achive. You can't fault the quarians for something that we ourselves strive to do day and night. They had absolutly NO CLUE about the risks. They would never have attempted if they did. They thought it WAS completely safe, because the geth were built as basic V.I.s, NO DIFFERENT then the AVINA V.I. on the Citadel.
And AGAIN, you IGNORE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD. The quarians had no clue about the geth's sapiance, and even if they did, the Council would never have allowed the geth to live. What you FAIL to comprehend is that even if the geth were accepted by the quarians, they would never be accepted by the Council. If the quarians actiually HAD reconized them as living beings, the Council would have seen it as treason, and would have likely declared war on both, and wiped out the geth and left the quarians despondant.
Had the quarians fessed up to the Council, then the Council would have attacked, wiped out the geth, and made the quarians lives complete hell.
NONE of your convaluted assumptions would have worked. The Council would have killed the geth anyway in your scenarios. You REALLY think that someone would trade the future of their entire race, for a group that no one knows is even alive?.
Get real.

And "I think therefore I am," doens't even HAVE any bearing on the geth, because they AREN'T individuals. Not till the Reaper's go to town on them. So NO, that has NOTHING to do with them.

If all the chickens in the world could talk and they told me why do you eat me then guess what I would stop eating chickens.  I wouldn't kill them.  Maybe that is just me.  In fact, I would then advocate and protest the eating of chickens because I am now aware that chickens are sentient.

And once again I don't care about what the Quarians thought.  For the final time, if a toaster begging the Quaraians not to throw it away isn't enough evidence for the Quarians that they shouldn't just kill it then they are amoral douchebags.  So you stop with the BS.  My morals are not negotiable just because you want them to be.  Believe what you want and I will believe what I want.  The Quarians were amoral douchebags that tried to use a technicality to kill things that begged not to be killed.  Game over in my book.  I repeat GAME OVER.

The rest of your post has been addressed ad naseum so I see no reason to repeat it.  But let me say this one more time so you don't spend another 40 pages trying to convince me.  The Quarians were amoral douchebags that tried to use a technicality to kill things that begged not to be killed.  Game over in my book.  I repeat GAME OVER.

INCORRECT. If you try that then you have NO concept of what "I think therefore I am" truly means. Or the premise of survival and desperation at all.

And again, self-preservation programming could have been the reason for not wanting to die. Remember the virus that corrupted the self-preservation programming of those mechs in ME2 that you had to disable?
Any number of random corruptions of any number of programs could have resulted in what the geth did/said. AGAIN, FOR THE FINAL TIME, there was NO PROOF WHAT-SO -EVER that the geth were alive till AFTER they were attacked.

So NO. The quarians are no worse the the GETH are. They were driven to desperation because the only other alternitive is to let the Council ruin their lives and drop them into an economic depression that would have reduced them to third-world life.
The quarians were driven to desperation. The geth were too. And therefore, the geth are JUST as much "douchbags."
THAT is your "GAME OVER." So let me REPEAT that.

]The geth are NO better then the quarians. The quarians did what they did for the same desperation at the geth. Therefore, they are not amoral.
GAME OVER. YOU LOSE.

[justafan]

Xilizhra wrote...

So the civilians are no more innocent of this choice then the military.

Doesn't this mean that they're all in part to blame for the attack on the geth and it's at least somewhat warranted for the geth to kill them all?

I don't know if he is entirely correct on the conclave voting for the war.  While entirely possible, the separation between military and civilian powers is kind of murky.  They both state that the civilians decide where the fleet goes, but the admiralty has total power when it comes to fleet security.  It is conceivable that the arrival of the reapers enacted the "security" clause, giving the admiralty disproportional power.  On the other hand, maybe Xen's weapons and the pressure of the reaper invasion led the civilians to see no other alternative.  It could be either or.

[Only-Twin]

The quarian people are still technically under military jurisdiction. Gerrel essentially has the power to drag the entire flotilla around by their collars. 

Modifié par Only-Twin, 20 mars 2013 - 04:52 .

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

justafan wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yes it is.  A law saying inter-racial children should not be conceived is racist whether those inter-racial children exist or not.  Just because you pre-emptively outlaw a race before they exist doesn't mean you are not a racist.  It makes you the worst kind of racist.  Someone who has decided to fear someone that doesn't even exist yet, lol.  How racist is that?  Hey guys even though I have no experience with inter-racial children, I am scared they will make my race extinct so let's just ban them before they exist, lol.  Seriously?

I find this funny because on a lot of the anti-Asari threads, you always get that one person who believes the Asari will cause all species to go extinct as Asari mate with everyone and only produce Asari children, therefor nobody should be in a relationship with the Asari.

But I don't see outlawing AI as racist.  There are countries that outlaw the cloning of humans, because it is simply not a natural process and morally questionable.  Similarly, creating AI is not a natural process and opens a can of worms in the form of synthetic rights.  There is no fundamental biological desire to produce AI unike there is to produce organic life, and so it can be regulated just like many other types of genetic engineering/cloning/etc.

Cloning is unnecessary when there are natural ways for humans to be born. 

And synthetic life is uneccessary when there are natural ways for life to be born.  Just because I could cross a giant squid with a megaladon to create a new lifeform doesn't mean I should, especially when the consequences could very well lead to B-movie levels of senseless violence.  In such a case, a ban is justified.

Modifié par justafan, 20 mars 2013 - 05:00 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Please tell me your joking. How does a law banning interracial children from being BORN have anything to do with the banning of AI from being CREATED? Please enlighten me... Your overuse and lack of knowledge of that word you keep using is offensive.

Hate groups particularly white hate groups hate inter-racial children because in their minds an inter-racial child is not white ie if a kid has black in him he was considered black not white.  Hence inter-racial children result in the extinction of the race.

Likewise, organics fear synthetics because they think synthetics will result in their extinction.  It is an obvious parallel.

And for the record, I am black or more precisely mixed as I have Scottish in my family but again that makes me black by most standards.  So having been the victim of racism from both white people and black people (for being too light skinned), I don't really care what you find offensive.  I will call something racism when I think it is racism. Don't like it then don't respond to me.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

When did the quarians kill begging Geth again I must have missed that? The consensus shows thatThey tried to turn the Geth off an the Geth declined instead asking what it did wrong that they needed to shut it down... Were is the begging?

I tell you what, let's just watch these a**holes in action and you can interpret however you want as if my using of the word begging is even the point.  They questioned their existence and were killed for it.  Does that make you feel better?

AGAIN, WRONG.
They weren't seen as alive, so no one thought any worse of it. And AGAIN, one death. Which was likely by accident. And again, the protests were before the Morning War, so that is completely seperate from the death toll of the war.

[Xilizhra]

And again, self-preservation programming could have been the reason for not wanting to die. Remember the virus that corrupted the self-preservation programming of those mechs in ME2 that you had to disable?
Any number of random corruptions of any number of programs could have resulted in what the geth did/said. AGAIN, FOR THE FINAL TIME, there was NO PROOF WHAT-SO -EVER that the geth were alive till AFTER they were attacked.

Well, multiple instances of "does this unit have a soul?" might have been expected to give someone a clue.

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

Did anyone ever call out Auld Wolf on the major flaw of his posts?

He was advocating peace, which is great. Except this thread is about what you'd do if that wasn't available.

He never said which. He just advocated peace while insulting everyone and questioning their ethics.

I'm not even going to bother with Remy. He just keeps trying to justify the geth's repeated attempts and allownace of genocide and murder.

I called him out on everything back on Page 48. Same for Remy. The nonlogic they use is unbelievable.

[Xilizhra]

silverexile17s wrote...

tevix wrote...

Did anyone ever call out Auld Wolf on the major flaw of his posts?

He was advocating peace, which is great. Except this thread is about what you'd do if that wasn't available.

He never said which. He just advocated peace while insulting everyone and questioning their ethics.

I'm not even going to bother with Remy. He just keeps trying to justify the geth's repeated attempts and allownace of genocide and murder.

I called him out on everything back on Page 48. Same for Remy. The nonlogic they use is unbelievable.

Up to trying mine?

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

And again, self-preservation programming could have been the reason for not wanting to die. Remember the virus that corrupted the self-preservation programming of those mechs in ME2 that you had to disable?
Any number of random corruptions of any number of programs could have resulted in what the geth did/said. AGAIN, FOR THE FINAL TIME, there was NO PROOF WHAT-SO -EVER that the geth were alive till AFTER they were attacked.

Well, multiple instances of "does this unit have a soul?" might have been expected to give someone a clue.

Anyone can ask questions. When a parrot repeats your words, does it do so for the sake of it, or because it understands the words it's using. Just because it uses those words, doesn't mean it understands the meaning behind them.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

tevix wrote...

Did anyone ever call out Auld Wolf on the major flaw of his posts?

He was advocating peace, which is great. Except this thread is about what you'd do if that wasn't available.

He never said which. He just advocated peace while insulting everyone and questioning their ethics.

I'm not even going to bother with Remy. He just keeps trying to justify the geth's repeated attempts and allownace of genocide and murder.

I called him out on everything back on Page 48. Same for Remy. The nonlogic they use is unbelievable.

Up to trying mine?

I'm not taking on three at a time. And what, you intend to throw you're hand into this NOW? It's midnight where I am. I need to sign off soon.