4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Sovereign24]

remydat wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

Lol, that is just mean dude.  Mean.  Even I don't have the balls to look my beloved Tali in her eyes and then kill her people.  Which is why I can only reveal how I really  feel about her idiot military leaders on a message board when she isn't looking, lol.

I got nothing against Tali, which is why seeing her off herself added to the moment even more for me.

[remydat]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Agreed, gotta go renegade peace.  The only thing missing is inviting Admiral Gherel over to celebate after, getting him drunk and having him wake up in a room full of Geth Primes.

[remydat]

Sovereign24 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

Lol, that is just mean dude.  Mean.  Even I don't have the balls to look my beloved Tali in her eyes and then kill her people.  Which is why I can only reveal how I really  feel about her idiot military leaders on a message board when she isn't looking, lol.

I got nothing against Tali, which is why seeing her off herself added to the moment even more for me.

I will admit it, when I chose the Quarian death option just to see what it looked like and I saw Tali go off the cliff, I shed a tear.  Reminded me of the ending cliff scene in Last of the Mohicans which is the first and only movie I legitimately cried when I saw it.  The worst is I think there is a paragon interrupt where for a split second you think you will be able to grab Tali before she goes off the cliff and somehow talk some sense into her only to realize you didn't make it in time.

Modifié par remydat, 20 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[justafan]

Isichar wrote...

justafan wrote...

The Geth are guilty of being complicit to attempted genocide.  They made no effort to stop the Heretics or sovereign, and made no attempts to warn organic civilization of the impending apocalypse which the geth knew Sovereign intended to unleash.

Why would you put yourself at risk to help people that are trying to kill you for making the mistake of living? Can you HONESTLY say you would have done differently? Think about it, would you put any risk on yourself to help people that are trying to kill you only because you exist? I want you to keep in mind that this is the same group that let the Qurians go because they could not calculate the results of wiping out a race.

justafan wrote...

As for the Reapers, they want nothing more than your destruction (OK, "Harvest" if we want to be technical).  During the Morning War, there was misunderstandings on both sides, with the Quarians not realizing the geth were more than VIs until after it became a full scale war, and the Geth not realizing that the slaughter of 99% of an intelligent species is a horrible crime.  There is a difference between fighting for survival, and disproportionate retribution.  With the reapers, they will never stop.  With the geth and Quarians, it is proven that both sides will stop, which brings into the issue the ethical problems of Geth violent isolationism and alliance with the reapers.

The war only stopped because of the reaper threat. It was a mutual destruction, if you think the Qurians would have hesitated to wipe out 100% of the Geth I am sorry to say your dead wrong. Yet the Geth who actually did have a chance to wipe out 100% of the Qurians chose not to. I am sorry to say I find it hard to sympathise with a race that died to a war they started (And I do sympathise with them, they panicked and made a bad decision which costed them greatly). And lets not act like the Qurians acted from a misunderstanding over what was happening. They became aware their VI's had become AI's and that is when the war started, not before.


And the Geth have NEVER have shown any interest in retribution. They have not shown anger, sadness or regret. They simply defended themselves. Yep 99.9% of a race got wiped out simply because they could not let go of killing a race thats crime was existing. The war begun with the Qurians, the war ended the moment the Qurians stopped fighting, and started back up again when the Qurians thought they had the ability to defeat the Geth. As far as I am able to tell 100% of the casualtys that come from this war come from the Qurians active choice to keep fighting. 

The Geth could have wiped out the Qurians and chose not to.
The Qurians have never stopped trying to completely destroy the Geth.

1.  Humans never did anything to the Geth, when the Morning War went down, we were still using wind to power our boats.  I'll let them have a beef with the council, but humans havie nothing to do with the Geth/Quarian war. The Geth knew Sovereign's intentions, but did nothing to warn the humans.

2.  Are you really trying to put a gun in the hand of every single Quarian?  It is impossible that 99% of a population would be capable of fighting, even if every grown man and woman was conscripted, you still have all the children, handicapped, and elderly incapable of fighting or defending themselves, and they are slaughtered across the board.  Also who is to say that the Quarians even chose to keep fighting to the end?  It was a defensive war by the time of Rannoch, at some point the Geth became the invaders.  The fact is, the Geth let them go due to a math error, the Geth admit as much, it was never mercy or any emotion or because the Quarians fleeing were civilian/unarmed.  

Peace requires both sides to forgo math and actually trust one another.  The Quarians have NO reason to trust the Geth, and every reason to think them hostile, yet when you inform them of the situation, they will stand down instead of continuing to try to destroy the Geth at Tikkun, there is your proof of hesitation.  Likewise, the Geth will only respond in kind, but only afterwards and if Legion is alive, otherwise the VI (aka the embodiment of 299 years of Geth cultural advancement) insists on 100% extermination.  The tables have turned.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No. You are NOT. You are prejudiced against it.
You yourself claimed that every synthetic uprising is by default the fault of orgnaics. You have shown nothing but ANTI-sentiments to "pro-life."
They didn't make a mistake, because their entire race was riding on it. You NEVER think on the ramafacations of it, do you? You really think the Council would buy into any of this, even if the quarians DID believe the geth were sapiant at the time? No. They would wipe them out themselves. And make the quarians pay hell for it. Then they would be in the same position anyway. And the geth would be DEAD in that future. so how's that work out for you? It's like telling a state guard that you smuggled an immigrant illegally across the border to escape abusive parents/spouse. They aren't going to care about the morals of it, bucause the law won't let them, and by law, you go to jail and the immagrant goes back to the living hell. All beacuse you fessed up to the border guard. Then where is your "take responcibility like a mature adult" come in? Life is NOT as clear-cut as that.
You see everything as FAR to black and white, NEVER seeing the gray in between. The problem here - what the problem ALWAYS has been -  was that you fault the quarians for the mistakes and prejudices of the Council, and the fears of retaliation from them that spurned them to panic and place their own survival and well being ahead of the geth, to the point that even if the DID believe the geth were sentiant, they would have still attacked to save their people from Council retaliation.
Like I said, the GAME OVER is in YOUR beliefs, as you are too inflexible to see that NOTHING is as cut and dry as  what you headcannon yourself into believeing it to be.

No.  It is entirely possible that some conflicts were initiated by machines.  I SPECULATED that based on this cycle that the writers intended to imply that the fundamental problem is the human fear of organics.  That is a recurring theme in sci fi.  So I think you are confusing my meta commentary or speculation with prejudice.  I am not basing my theory on the fact I hate organics.  I am basing it on the common theme I have seen repeated in sci fi stories previously.

So let the Council try and wipe them out.  I would have liked to see the Geth killing those smug Asari, Turian, and Salarian a**es.  And you do realise you do not speak for the Council? All you are doing is presenting your opinion of what you think would happen.  Acting like that opinion is the defintive way things would play out is just silly.  Or are you one of the Mass Effect writers?  You have an opinion good for you.  I have mine.  As prejudiced as the Council is, I don't think they are stupid.  They would assess the situation and probably conclude taking on the Geth would result in great loss of life to them and so would not risk it.  It's not like they have a race they could uplift to be cannon fodder like the Krogan.

I think what you don't get is the Council outsmarted the Quarians.  Their lazy a**es are not risking the lives of their people to kill a synthetic race that hasn't attacked them.  It is much easier to scare what they consider the lesser races into taking that chance so that it is the Quarians getting slaughtered if they miscalculate and not the real council races.  The Quarians stupidity is in falling for it.

That's STILL claiming that organics are the first one's you consider at fault for this. The quarian/geth conflict is proof that conflicts like these are the fault of both parties. I'm not confusing anything with the prejudice you have, since you call the quarians amoral despite 50+ pages of people giving you reasons that show they are driven by the same levels of desperation that made the geth side with the Reapers.

And STOP with the smartass arrogance. The Asari warships are the largest built, if the cruisiers shown ME3 are any indication. And again, turians fought the krogan to an absolute standstill. That was pre-genophage. And salarian STG is the most advanced black ops in the galaxy, surpassing even the Spectres. The only reason the battle of the Citadel went so bad was because Saren locked down the relay network, and lokced out 90% of the Council's fleets from getting to the Citadel. 
If they had been involved in the start of the Morning War, the Council would have absolutly wiped the floor with the geth. The salarians would have developed advanced viruses ((geth are nowhere as complex or advanced as in the ME games) while the turians hammered them into dust (again, not as advanced as ME games, so no dreadnoughts).
Because the Council do not see synthetcis as alive, and therefore do not consider wiping them out as genocide, the "smug" turians, asari, and salarians would have smugly  ground the geth's literal and metaphorical face-plates into the dirt, God of War Kratos-style. And I bet you they would have laughed as they did it, too.
A.I.s are diffinitively illegal. In Mass Effect 3: Citadel, the turians are showen to encounter A.I. problems themselves. There is a recording in the Council Archives of Council military forces butchering A.I.s as they beg for mercy. The A.I.s ask in why they are attacking them, as the appeal they legally filed with the Council was not acknowladged.  The turian, asari, and salarian  give no valid answer, and proceed to gun down the three A.I.s as they beg to be spared.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:28, and watch till 1:55. You will see that the Council couldn't give a damn about the rights of synthetics, murdering a group that filed a legal appeal. They would have wiped out the geth just as brutally.
Then they would have turned on the quarians and punished them for even creating A.I.s. If the quarians had fessed up, they would have lost "the right to remain silent," and now " anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." Now they suffer lawsuits on top of sanctions and censorship. And all because the Council discovered them.

But if they wipe out the geth before the Council finds out, then the quarians are in the clear. Yes, it will be sad to lose the geth, but they must put the needs and wellfare of their people and civilization ahead of the fate of, what they still considered to be, automated machines. The Council certinly won't miss them, and quarian sociaty will survive, so there is really no choice.

And WRONG. The Council didn't minipulate them into doing it, because they didn't know the geth were problems in the first place. If they had, they would have interviened long before the Morning War ever broke out. That's what YOU do not get. The Council would have destroyed the geth and made the quarian's lives living hell, had the quarians done what YOU suggest and fess up.
There are times in life when doing the moral thing is wrong, as it only brings more pain and more damage then the alternitive. Remember what happens with James Vega's choice to abandon the colonists to save critical intel on the Collectors. In hindsight, it may not be the right call, but when you are in the moment, and the fate of your entire race hangs in the balance right in your hands, the lines can blurr. What is best? Morallity, or numbers?
Another example is Rana Thanoptis from Virmire. Save her, and she goes on to kill several top asari government officals in an indoctrinated killing spree.
Sometimes the moral answer isn't the right one. Remember Shepard's words: "Sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 mars 2013 - 08:41 .

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 mars 2013 - 08:44 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

Huh I kind of thought forging peace between dire enemies thoroughly trashing Star brat's entire theory in the process was rather epic.

Like curing the Genophage, feeding a Reaper to a thresher maw, killing the crap out of Sovereign without sacrificing the Council, managing to go three games without punching the reporter...

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 20 mars 2013 - 09:42 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well I've done both.

* Peace by yelling
* and wiping out the Geth.

My first play of the game the Geth bought the farm, and Legion was there. Just no peace. But I cured the genophage.

[justafan]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

Huh I kind of thought forging peace between dire enemies thoroughly trashing Star brat's entire theory in the process was rather epic.

Like curing the Genophage, feeding a Reaper to a thresher maw, killing the crap out of Sovereign without sacrificing the Council, managing to go three games without punching the reporter...

Now you've just gone too far.  What's next, will you tell me NOT to hug Tali?  Or perhaps not to take the renegade interrupt to gut Kai Leng?  With some interrupts you just don't have a choice.

[justafan]

Ryzaki wrote...

justafan wrote...

Now now, let's not let not get this thread locked thanks to real-world discussions of racism. The only discussion of racism allowed here is the fictional kind of the suit rat, toaster, big stupid jellyfish variety.

What no four eyes? That good sir is an outrage! *shakes fist* Batarians deserve insults too!

I'm a human, and you know what they say about us.  But if you insist, insulting Batarians is an insult to the breath I expend insulting them. 

Modifié par justafan, 20 mars 2013 - 10:10 .

[Isichar]

justafan wrote...


1.  Humans never did anything to the Geth, when the Morning War went down, we were still using wind to power our boats.  I'll let them have a beef with the council, but humans havie nothing to do with the Geth/Quarian war. The Geth knew Sovereign's intentions, but did nothing to warn the humans.

True although I would question if the Geth had any real obligation to go out of their way to warn us from a synthetic PoV. The first real sign that organics and synthetics could actually work together came when both realized that the Reapers were a clear problem and that only happens if Shepard allows it to. Its possible they calculated that warning organics would be pointless. Its also possible that the writers decided to go at things from a different angle in ME2 compared to ME1 in regards to synthetics.

justafan wrote...
2.  Are you really trying to put a gun in the hand of every single Quarian?  It is impossible that 99% of a population would be capable of fighting, even if every grown man and woman was conscripted, you still have all the children, handicapped, and elderly incapable of fighting or defending themselves, and they are slaughtered across the board.  Also who is to say that the Quarians even chose to keep fighting to the end?  It was a defensive war by the time of Rannoch, at some point the Geth became the invaders.  The fact is, the Geth let them go due to a math error, the Geth admit as much, it was never mercy or any emotion or because the Quarians fleeing were civilian/unarmed.  

The Qurians admit they acted first, after that you just have to watch the attitude of the people as a whole. When you experience the Geth memorys in Legions mission in ME3 you see Qurians who felt the Geth deserved to live been killed by other Qurians, you see many of the people in power constantly pushing for going to war and/or controlling the Geth. Even Tali found some middle ground with the race she had grown up believing there could never be peace with. All the Geth had to go on from the moment they became sentient is organics will try and kill us pretty much 100% of the time.

I disagree with you saying the Geth letting the Qurians go a math error, an error would imply it was a mistake and thats not the case. The Geth truly did not understand the repercussions of wiping out an entire race, I agree mercy and emotion has nothing to do with the matter, it was another logical decision based on what information or lack of it had at the time.

justafan wrote...

Peace requires both sides to forgo math and actually trust one another.  The Quarians have NO reason to trust the Geth, and every reason to think them hostile, yet when you inform them of the situation, they will stand down instead of continuing to try to destroy the Geth at Tikkun, there is your proof of hesitation.  Likewise, the Geth will only respond in kind, but only afterwards and if Legion is alive, otherwise the VI (aka the embodiment of 299 years of Geth cultural advancement) insists on 100% extermination.  The tables have turned.

Absolutely disagree on just about everything here... I have no reason to trust my new neighbor that just moved in accross the street, does that give me any moral high ground to kill him? You are correct when you say they had no reason to trust the Geth, but how does that justify trying to kill them when they have never displayed any hostility towards you?

Its funny you are using an example were the Qurians went out of their way to attack the Geth the moment they thought they had the upper hand with Xan's new tech (Against the wishes of many Qurians in the fleet putting their lives at risk for a war they dont even want). The Qurians only considered peace the moment they realized they were LOSING LOL. They only considered peace when the destruction of their entire race was clearly and undeniably on the table and even then it took Shepard yelling at them to consider.

And if you are unable to make peace with the Qurians and Geth at this point you have effectively proven that it is not possible for organics and synthetics to live in peace (to them at least). Because even in the face of utter destruction Shepard who is the link between the two basically chooses one side or the other. And if push comes to shove you will fight for your races survival.

Even though I side with the Geth in terms of the conflict I want to note that I dont actually think the Qurians deserve to be wiped out for their mistakes, but that the war was a direct result of their mistakes. The Geths inability to understand organics did not help the matter, but in the end I do think pretty much 100% of the fighting that occured between the Geth and the Qurians was directly started by the Qurians regardless of who suffered most from it.

Modifié par Isichar, 20 mars 2013 - 10:12 .

[justafan]

Isichar wrote...

justafan wrote...
2.  Are you really trying to put a gun in the hand of every single Quarian?  It is impossible that 99% of a population would be capable of fighting, even if every grown man and woman was conscripted, you still have all the children, handicapped, and elderly incapable of fighting or defending themselves, and they are slaughtered across the board.  Also who is to say that the Quarians even chose to keep fighting to the end?  It was a defensive war by the time of Rannoch, at some point the Geth became the invaders.  The fact is, the Geth let them go due to a math error, the Geth admit as much, it was never mercy or any emotion or because the Quarians fleeing were civilian/unarmed.  

The Qurians admit they acted first, after that you just have to watch the attitude of the people as a whole. When you experience the Geth memorys in Legions mission in ME3 you see Qurians who felt the Geth deserved to live been killed by other Qurians, you see many of the people in power constantly pushing for going to war and/or controlling the Geth. Even Tali found some middle ground with the race she had grown up believing there could never be peace with. All the Geth had to go on from the moment they became sentient is organics will try and kill us pretty much 100% of the time.

I disagree with you saying the Geth letting the Qurians go a math error, an error would imply it was a mistake and thats not the case. The Geth truly did not understand the repercussions of wiping out an entire race, I agree mercy and emotion has nothing to do with the matter, it was another logical decision based on what information or lack of it had at the time.

justafan wrote...

Peace requires both sides to forgo math and actually trust one another.  The Quarians have NO reason to trust the Geth, and every reason to think them hostile, yet when you inform them of the situation, they will stand down instead of continuing to try to destroy the Geth at Tikkun, there is your proof of hesitation.  Likewise, the Geth will only respond in kind, but only afterwards and if Legion is alive, otherwise the VI (aka the embodiment of 299 years of Geth cultural advancement) insists on 100% extermination.  The tables have turned.

Absolutely disagree on just about everything here... I have no reason to trust my new neighbor that just moved in accross the street, does that give me any moral high ground to kill him? You are correct when you say they had no reason to trust the Geth, but how does that justify trying to kill them when they have never displayed any hostility towards you?

Its funny you are using an example were the Qurians went out of their way to attack the Geth the moment they thought they had the upper hand with Xan's new tech (Against the wishes of many Qurians in the fleet putting their lives at risk for a war they dont even want). The Qurians only considered peace the moment they realized they were LOSING LOL. They only considered peace when the destruction of their entire race was clearly and undeniably on the table and even then it took Shepard yelling at them to consider.

And if you are unable to make peace with the Qurians and Geth at this point you have effectively proven that it is not possible for organics and synthetics to live in peace (to them at least). Because even in the face of utter destruction Shepard who is the link between the two basically chooses one side or the other. And if push comes to shove you will fight for your races survival.

Even though I side with the Geth in terms of the conflict I want to note that I dont actually think the Qurians deserve to be wiped out for their mistakes, but that the war was a direct result of their mistakes. The Geths inability to understand organics did not help the matter, but in the end I do think pretty much 100% of the fighting that occured between the Geth and the Qurians was directly started by the Qurians regardless of who suffered most from it.

The Quarian you see killed by other Quarians was not killed on purpose.  The target was the Geth, and I don't think this situation was nearly as common as many people believe.  We only see it for the significance in that it was the first time a Geth took up a firearm.

In regards to the bolded section, I really hope you just misinterpreted what I said as being about the Morning War and not the Modern War, otherwise there is a serious issue there.  The geth of 300 years ago are the same Geth as today, they showed a willingness to go to the brink of genocide, and would have gone all the way.  The Quarians have no idea why they were able to escape, but they know for a fact that the Geth threatened their species with extinction.  Further, the Eden Prime war was to the best of their knowledge an attack by the Geth on the whole galaxy.  The Quarians are one of the only species from ME1 to take the Reaper threat seriously, they believe Shepard when he says that the Geth following Sovereign intended no less than galactic genocide, and as far as anyone is aware, the heretics and Geth are one in the same.  The orthodox Geth make no effort to stop the heretics or distinguish themselves from them.  To your average Joe Quarian, it's pretty obvious the Geth are Reaper allies bent on not just Quarian extinction, but galactic extinction.

And the Quarians being told the upgrade was coming back has nothing to do with it.  They believe that the Geth want them extinct, they need to trust that the Geth will not return fire despite them withdrawing.  All the evidence they have up until that point indicates that the Geth will destroy them, or to be fair, kill all but 1% of them.  It takes a huge leap of faith to trust that the Geth will not hold a grudge, will honor their word, and defy history.  To their credit, they do just that under Legion, but the VI?  He would have slaughtered the Quarians regardless, and his actions prove the Quarian assumptions about the Geth.  He represents the Geth as they were at the point Legion was commissioned.  In truth, he IS Legion, but 6months or so younger.  Were it not for Commander Shepard's influence, the Quarians would have stopped fireing, and then promptly been killed, versus at least going down fighting.  The Geth wanting to reunite and resolve their issues with the Quarians is only a VERY recent occurence, and is only possible thanks to Commander Shepard and Tali's influence on Legion.

Modifié par justafan, 20 mars 2013 - 10:35 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

remydat wrote...

Agreed, gotta go renegade peace.  The only thing missing is inviting Admiral Gherel over to celebate after, getting him drunk and having him wake up in a room full of Geth Primes.

Lololololololololololololololol:P

[Isichar]

justafan wrote...

The Quarian you see killed by other Quarians was not killed on purpose.  The target was the Geth, and I don't think this situation was nearly as common as many people believe.  We only see it for the significance in that it was the first time a Geth took up a firearm.

In regards to the bolded section, I really hope you just misinterpreted what I said as being about the Morning War and not the Modern War, otherwise there is a serious issue there.  The geth of 300 years ago are the same Geth as today, they showed a willingness to go to the brink of genocide, and would have gone all the way.  The Quarians have no idea why they were able to escape, but they know for a fact that the Geth threatened their species with extinction.  Further, the Eden Prime war was to the best of their knowledge an attack by the Geth on the whole galaxy.  The Quarians are one of the only species from ME1 to take the Reaper threat seriously, they believe Shepard when he says that the Geth following Sovereign intended no less than galactic genocide, and as far as anyone is aware, the heretics and Geth are one in the same.  The orthodox Geth make no effort to stop the heretics or distinguish themselves from them.  To your average Joe Quarian, it's pretty obvious the Geth are Reaper allies bent on not just Quarian extinction, but galactic extinction.

And the Quarians being told the upgrade was coming back has nothing to do with it.  They believe that the Geth want them extinct, they need to trust that the Geth will not return fire despite them withdrawing.  All the evidence they have up until that point indicates that the Geth will destroy them, or to be fair, kill all but 1% of them.  It takes a huge leap of faith to trust that the Geth will not hold a grudge, will honor their word, and defy history.  To their credit, they do just that under Legion, but the VI?  He would have slaughtered the Quarians regardless, and his actions prove the Quarian assumptions about the Geth.  He represents the Geth as they were at the point Legion was commissioned.  In truth, he IS Legion, but 6months or so younger.  Were it not for Commander Shepard's influence, the Quarians would have stopped fireing, and then promptly been killed, versus at least going down fighting.  The Geth wanting to reunite and resolve their issues with the Quarians is only a VERY recent occurence, and is only possible thanks to Commander Shepard and Tali's influence on Legion.

The situation was not that common because Qurians like Tali grew up believing there could be no peace, the entire option was never even seriously considered from the Qurians as a whole even if there was a minority that pushed for it, they ultimately went ignored.

As for your bolded part what exactly should the Geth have done? Played nice to the people trying to wipe them out. The geth in this case are essentially a wall, just going on existing that the Qurians keep bashing their head against. The Qurians cry about how much the wall has hurt them even though they are the ones who keep smashing their heads against it and they use that past pain as an excuse to keep bashing their heads against it. The wall owes you nothing, because you were the one hurting yourself.

As for the Qurians recognizing the reaper threat they obviously did not. Seeing as how they thought started another war with the Geth instead of dealing with an enemy that had wiped out trillions of lives...

I still don't understand how you can justify the fact that every single time we know about that there has been a conflict (including both the first and final time) it has been from the a clear decision from the Qurians, in both the modern war and the morning war. There was no more threat from the Geth when they chose to attack then there was months before.The reason they decided to attack was not from self defense but because they believed they could gain the upper hand. If this had happened 100 years earlier they would have tried it then as well.

And Geth dont act on emotion, they dont hold grudges, they just collect statistics. Again if you get to a point in which the Geth and Qurians cannot make peace then you have shown that it is pretty much 100% impossible for there to be peace to them. When the Geth first let them live it was because they did not understand what would happen. Now that they understand that letting the Qurians live will result in more war 100% of the time why would you let them live? The Geth is like a child growing up in and been shaped by the world around it. It will make decisions based on statistics and how are you going to deal with something that goes out of its way to pose a threat to you in which you can show it is not possible to have peace with?

Legion influences Tali just as much as she influences him, this was not a one sided friendship that spawned because of Tali. Tali will remain in conflict with Legion if Shepard does not interfer, Shepard shows both of them that peace is an option. Yes it is important that Tali and Shepard showed Legion things from a different PoV but it is equally true that Shepard and Legion teach Tali much as well.

There is no getting passed the fact that regardless of whatever damage the Geth have caused, it has always been a result of the Qurians initial action. Sure both took part in the war, they needed both to end it, but it will always be the Qurians that started the conflict just because a Geth questioned its own existence. 

Modifié par Isichar, 20 mars 2013 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Now you've just gone too far. What's next, will you tell me NOT to hug Tali? Or perhaps not to take the renegade interrupt to gut Kai Leng? With some interrupts you just don't have a choice.

I've never punched the reporter either; it's just silly and unnecessary.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

...wow really? I mean...really? 

Yep no mistake in stopping debating you. Yes preferring the renegade version of peace over the paragon peace because of epiciness. Oh noes. HOW DARE I!

remydat wrote...

Agreed, gotta go renegade peace.  The only thing
missing is inviting Admiral Gherel over to celebate after, getting him
drunk and having him wake up in a room full of Geth Primes.

If only. Don't forget to have Xen over. :3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2013 - 01:16 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now you've just gone too far. What's next, will you tell me NOT to hug Tali? Or perhaps not to take the renegade interrupt to gut Kai Leng? With some interrupts you just don't have a choice.

I've never punched the reporter either; it's just silly and unnecessary.

You're silly for not punching Al-Jilani. She uses Gotcha questions like they used on Mitt Romney during the Pres. Debates. That is wrong and no matter what the person says, they are wrong. Al-Jilani is like that, and the Quarians are like that. The Geth should either be killd or returned to slavery. Koris/Xen want them back as pets, and Han want them dead. Most everyone else is like Reegar and can't wait to shoot them.

Being a renegade is not being unnecessary. I it is being necessary. I don't have a problem destorying the relay killing 300,000 batarians. 1. because they're batarian, they have literally been killing humans since day one, including my entire family/friends and left me for dead. 2. because they deserve it UNLIKE the Geth who only did the manual lbaor they were told to do, then one day decided that they should have some say in the matter and were immediately executed so other geth defended themselves and now we hate them?

Hyopcrites all of you Quarian supporters. Double Standard people, I hate you

[Xilizhra]

You're silly for not punching Al-Jilani. She uses Gotcha questions like they used on Mitt Romney during the Pres. Debates. That is wrong and no matter what the person says, they are wrong. Al-Jilani is like that, and the Quarians are like that. The Geth should either be killd or returned to slavery. Koris/Xen want them back as pets, and Han want them dead. Most everyone else is like Reegar and can't wait to shoot them.

Hah. Romney deserved whatever he got. In any case, everything she does is ephemeral and punching her is unwarranted.

[Sovereign24]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

You realise it's a video game right

And yes wiping out the Quarians made my first play through that much more impactful. Seeing Tali off herself was heart-breaking. Would never take that moment back.

Edit: Btw I should clarify. In my first playthrough I didn't have the choice of peace so I had to choose. I was able to correct that mistake in my second playthrough but after doing it, it didn't resonate nearly as much as HAVING to choose a side did. Hence why my first playthrough (wiping out the Quarians) will always be my head-canon.

Modifié par Sovereign24, 20 mars 2013 - 01:47 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're silly for not punching Al-Jilani. She uses Gotcha questions like they used on Mitt Romney during the Pres. Debates. That is wrong and no matter what the person says, they are wrong. Al-Jilani is like that, and the Quarians are like that. The Geth should either be killd or returned to slavery. Koris/Xen want them back as pets, and Han want them dead. Most everyone else is like Reegar and can't wait to shoot them.

Hah. Romney deserved whatever he got. In any case, everything she does is ephemeral and punching her is unwarranted.

At any rate I see where your point is beong drawn from: the fact al-Jilani is only so psuhy with you so she can get good ratings and keep her job.

Its wrong however 

[S.A.K]

Sovereign24 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

You realise it's a video game right

And yes wiping out the Quarians made my first play through that much more impactful. Seeing Tali off herself was heart-breaking. Would never take that moment back.

Edit: Btw I should clarify. In my first playthrough I didn't have the choice of peace so I had to choose. I was able to correct that mistake in my second playthrough but after doing it, it didn't resonate nearly as much as HAVING to choose a side did. Hence why my first playthrough (wiping out the Quarians) will always be my head-canon.

Yeah, same thing happened to me. Had to choose a side on my first run, killed the Geth, shot Legion 3 times in the head... and smiled.









jk;)

[Sovereign24]

S.A.K wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

You realise it's a video game right

And yes wiping out the Quarians made my first play through that much more impactful. Seeing Tali off herself was heart-breaking. Would never take that moment back.

Edit: Btw I should clarify. In my first playthrough I didn't have the choice of peace so I had to choose. I was able to correct that mistake in my second playthrough but after doing it, it didn't resonate nearly as much as HAVING to choose a side did. Hence why my first playthrough (wiping out the Quarians) will always be my head-canon.

Yeah, same thing happened to me. Had to choose a side on my first run, killed the Geth, shot Legion 3 times in the head... and smiled.









jk;)

 
Oh, that is not okay

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's STILL claiming that organics are the first one's you consider at fault for this. The quarian/geth conflict is proof that conflicts like these are the fault of both parties. I'm not confusing anything with the prejudice you have, since you call the quarians amoral despite 50+ pages of people giving you reasons that show they are driven by the same levels of desperation that made the geth side with the Reapers.

And STOP with the smartass arrogance. The Asari warships are the largest built, if the cruisiers shown ME3 are any indication. And again, turians fought the krogan to an absolute standstill. That was pre-genophage. And salarian STG is the most advanced black ops in the galaxy, surpassing even the Spectres. The only reason the battle of the Citadel went so bad was because Saren locked down the relay network, and lokced out 90% of the Council's fleets from getting to the Citadel. 
If they had been involved in the start of the Morning War, the Council would have absolutly wiped the floor with the geth. The salarians would have developed advanced viruses ((geth are nowhere as complex or advanced as in the ME games) while the turians hammered them into dust (again, not as advanced as ME games, so no dreadnoughts).
Because the Council do not see synthetcis as alive, and therefore do not consider wiping them out as genocide, the "smug" turians, asari, and salarians would have smugly  ground the geth's literal and metaphorical face-plates into the dirt, God of War Kratos-style. And I bet you they would have laughed as they did it, too.
A.I.s are diffinitively illegal. In Mass Effect 3: Citadel, the turians are showen to encounter A.I. problems themselves. There is a recording in the Council Archives of Council military forces butchering A.I.s as they beg for mercy. The A.I.s ask in why they are attacking them, as the appeal they legally filed with the Council was not acknowladged.  The turian, asari, and salarian  give no valid answer, and proceed to gun down the three A.I.s as they beg to be spared.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:28, and watch till 1:55. You will see that the Council couldn't give a damn about the rights of synthetics, murdering a group that filed a legal appeal. They would have wiped out the geth just as brutally.
Then they would have turned on the quarians and punished them for even creating A.I.s. If the quarians had fessed up, they would have lost "the right to remain silent," and now " anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." Now they suffer lawsuits on top of sanctions and censorship. And all because the Council discovered them.

But if they wipe out the geth before the Council finds out, then the quarians are in the clear. Yes, it will be sad to lose the geth, but they must put the needs and wellfare of their people and civilization ahead of the fate of, what they still considered to be, automated machines. The Council certinly won't miss them, and quarian sociaty will survive, so there is really no choice.

And WRONG. The Council didn't minipulate them into doing it, because they didn't know the geth were problems in the first place. If they had, they would have interviened long before the Morning War ever broke out. That's what YOU do not get. The Council would have destroyed the geth and made the quarian's lives living hell, had the quarians done what YOU suggest and fess up.
There are times in life when doing the moral thing is wrong, as it only brings more pain and more damage then the alternitive. Remember what happens with James Vega's choice to abandon the colonists to save critical intel on the Collectors. In hindsight, it may not be the right call, but when you are in the moment, and the fate of your entire race hangs in the balance right in your hands, the lines can blurr. What is best? Morallity, or numbers?
Another example is Rana Thanoptis from Virmire. Save her, and she goes on to kill several top asari government officals in an indoctrinated killing spree.
Sometimes the moral answer isn't the right one. Remember Shepard's words: "Sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one."

The only organic/synthetic conflict I have ever seen in the story where we are told beyond a shadow of a doubt by both organics and synthetics who started it is the Geth/Quarian war.  All other conflicts it is never stated by both organics and synthetics who is at fault.  So we have to decide what to believe.  In just about every sci fi movie I have seen on this topic (I Robot, Terminator, Matrix), the conflict starts because organics are scared of synthetics, try to shut them down and then the machines conclude organics need to go.  If you want to get mad at someone or call someone prejudice please write to these prejudiced human authors and tell them to stop writing stories like this.  And once again, I fully admit I could be wrong about the writers intent but until I see evidence of it, I am free to speculate based on the ongoing theme that HUMAN AUTHORS write.  

I am not being a Smartass.  I never argued the Geth would win.  It doesn't matter who wins or loses, both sides will have people die was my point.  And guess what, the Council knows this which is why despite billions of Quarians dying THEY DO NOTHING.  Do you understand? In fact, the first inclination of the Council is to allegedly sent DIPLOMATIC SHIPS to talk to the Geth about Peace.  Further, when those ships get shot down allegedly, the Council DOES NOTHING except keep sending ships that keep allegedly get SHOT DOWN to make peace.  So your entire the Coucil would have killed the Geth is based on head cannon.  Fine, believe what you want.  I see no evidence that the Council would have risk their lives because I know for 100% fact they let BILLIONS of Quarians die and DID NOTHING.

And you still don't get it.  They don't have to know the Quarians have created an AI.  They just have to create a law banning synthetic life and threatening harsh sanctions for those who do and by doing so it according to you forces the Quarians to be the ones to take the risk of shutting down the Geth.  You get it now?  Your argument proves my point.  The Quarians got scared because of the Council Laws and they risked their lives to be the ones to shut down the Geth.  In the process they lost a billion lives.  The Council didn't have to lift a finger and when they found out about it, they DID NOTHING.  So yes the Quarians were played.  

The Council can live good and basically impose laws that force others to risk their lives for the glory of the Council.  It is no different than any imperial empire that has come before it. 

[remydat]

Let's look at this from another angle.



So let's ask two simple questions.

1. Would the Geth attack if Gherel had listened? No.

2. Is Tali an Admiral in the Migrant Fleet with more intel on the situation than Gherel? Yes.

Conclusion: Gherel is an a**hole who doesn't like to listen. When we were on the Dreadnought and stoped the Reaper Code, the Dreadnought was defenseless and Shepard and Tali told him the threat was over. His stubborn a** didn't listen. Now when Tali tells him again to stop, he refuses.

Why should the Geth be killed because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? Why should the Quarians have to die because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? The answer is they shouldn't have to die but if I have to pick then sorry Quarians, Admiral Gherel is the leader you put in power so you have to pay the price for his arrogance, stubbornness, and vengeance. Admiral Gherel cost you your lives.  Tragic but that is what happens when you let a**holes lead the military.

Modifié par remydat, 20 mars 2013 - 03:45 .

[Hazegurl]

Sovereign24 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

Lol, that is just mean dude.  Mean.  Even I don't have the balls to look my beloved Tali in her eyes and then kill her people.  Which is why I can only reveal how I really  feel about her idiot military leaders on a message board when she isn't looking, lol.

I got nothing against Tali, which is why seeing her off herself added to the moment even more for me.

I agree, watching Tali kill herself over my decision was an epic moment in the face of watching an entire race of organics gets wiped out due to my actions. I still believed that picking the Geth was the better decision but losing both Tali and Leigon in one mission was hard.