4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Seriously I'm still bummed you lose Legion no matter what you do.

Just...

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

Let's look at this from another angle.

Conclusion: Gherel is an a**hole who doesn't like to listen. When we were on the Dreadnought and stoped the Reaper Code, the Dreadnought was defenseless and Shepard and Tali told him the threat was over. His stubborn a** didn't listen. Now when Tali tells him again to stop, he refuses.

Why should the Geth be killed because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? Why should the Quarians have to die because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? The answer is they shouldn't have to die but if I have to pick then sorry Quarians, Admiral Gherel is the leader you put in power so you have to pay the price for his arrogance, stubbornness, and vengeance. Admiral Gherel cost you your lives.  Tragic but that is what happens when you let a**holes lead the military.

I agree 100%

I've been saying this for a while. The Quarians put there lives in the hands of this jerk who doesn't care about them and should not be leading anyone. The other Admirals allow him to railroad them at every corner. The Quarians die(if Shep chooses the Geth) due to ****** poor leadership. It's not Shepard or even the Geth who kill the Quarians. The Quarians kill themselves.

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seriously I'm still bummed you lose Legion no matter what you do.

Just...

I don't really like Legion, but I undestand that it must really suck when that happen to a favorite of yours.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Hazegurl wrote...



I agree, watching Tali kill herself over my decision was an epic moment in the face of watching an entire race of organics gets wiped out due to my actions. I still believed that picking the Geth was the better decision but losing both Tali and Leigon in one mission was hard.

Thank You for agreeing with me. Chill bumps on your skin scene is what Rannoch is.

[Ryzaki]

S.A.K wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seriously I'm still bummed you lose Legion no matter what you do.

Just...

I don't really like Legion, but I undestand that it must really suck when that happen to a favorite of yours.

Yeah I wouldn't wish anyone being unsaveable in ME3. =/ Alas both Thane (though hoenstly I saw that one coming) and Legion just can't be saved.

Ah well. Legion you'll always live on in my Shep's heart. <3

[Only-Twin]

Conclusion: Gherel is an a**hole who doesn't like to listen. When we were on the Dreadnought and stoped the Reaper Code, the Dreadnought was defenseless and Shepard and Tali told him the threat was over. His stubborn a** didn't listen. Now when Tali tells him again to stop, he refuses.

Why should the Geth be killed because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? Why should the Quarians have to die because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? The answer is they shouldn't have to die but if I have to pick then sorry Quarians, Admiral Gherel is the leader you put in power so you have to pay the price for his arrogance, stubbornness, and vengeance. Admiral Gherel cost you your lives. Tragic but that is what happens when you let a**holes lead the military.

I mostly agree with you, but I still don't think it has to go that way. It does come down to picking one over the other, but I suppose I just can't accept a tragedy because of one person. 

Modifié par Only-Twin, 20 mars 2013 - 05:22 .

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sovereign24 wrote...

I've done two ME3 playthroughs.

First one I wiped out the Quarians.

Second one I made peace.

Wiping out the Quarians made the moment feel so much more epic.

Peace is just a cop out and imo takes away from the significance of that moment.

*brofists*

Though renegade peace actually feels awesome.

Paragon peace makes me facepalm though. Shep sounds like a sissy when he needs to be telling people to STFU and GTFO. "I hope you make the right choice" *snort* B**** please. You better stop shooting before you get shot more like.

Wow. Pure promotion of genocide. <_<
People like you make Alud Wulf look like a bloddy oracal of truth and morality.
I mean really. THAT'S your reason? "It's more epic?"

...wow really? I mean...really? 

Yep no mistake in stopping debating you. Yes preferring the renegade version of peace over the paragon peace because of epiciness. Oh noes. HOW DARE I!

remydat wrote...

Agreed, gotta go renegade peace.  The only thing
missing is inviting Admiral Gherel over to celebate after, getting him
drunk and having him wake up in a room full of Geth Primes.

If only. Don't forget to have Xen over. :3

I wasn't talking about hating peace. My FemShep uses THAT SAME OPTION to get peace I was hating the idea of "wiping out the quarians felt more epic"? THAT was what I spoke out againts. Because that is a pure pemotion of genocide for no reason then "just because."
WHY do you think I was talking about the peace option when the comment was clearly directed at the "wiping the quarians out was more epic" sentance?  I mean, do you just GET OFF on misinterpertations?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Nope you're right. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. Shriek all you like. I'm a horrible person because I chose a genocide in a video game *sniffles* whatever shall I do...

*picks geth again, watches Tali jump off cliff, kill Rachni Queen AGAIN, side with the Salarian dalatress AGAIN pick Destroy yet again*

Yep

The Quarians dying wasn't epic as much as bitter and felt realistic that brofist was for that. While I prefer that ending because the Quarians made their bed I do not feel it's "epic." actually yes it is an epic scene. It's not supposed to be feel good. But to me? It's epic.  The renegade peace was epic because it told them to STFU and deal with the Geth having as many rights as they did and if their stupid asses didn't stop shooting they'd get blown out of the sky because Shep was DONE saving their sorry asses from their own boneheaded mistakes. Siding with the geth was epic BECAUSE they had to deal with the geth shooting them back when they were weakened (like they did the Geth...except they (the Quarians) had wasted their opportunities to retreat). They keep shooting when they're told not to...welp not my Shep's problem. They threw themselves on the grenade after Shep told em to clear off. Sucks to be them?

If you want to sneer at someone at least understand what they're saying. That knee jerk "ZOMG how dare you!" is really old. I'm allowed to like whatever the hell I want hate to break it to you but they're pixels. I'm not hurting anyone. Just like those who destroy the geth with the justification that they're toasters. (no matter how much I disagree). But honestly your personal attacks are getting really...really old.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2013 - 07:30 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's STILL claiming that organics are the first one's you consider at fault for this. The quarian/geth conflict is proof that conflicts like these are the fault of both parties. I'm not confusing anything with the prejudice you have, since you call the quarians amoral despite 50+ pages of people giving you reasons that show they are driven by the same levels of desperation that made the geth side with the Reapers.

And STOP with the smartass arrogance. The Asari warships are the largest built, if the cruisiers shown ME3 are any indication. And again, turians fought the krogan to an absolute standstill. That was pre-genophage. And salarian STG is the most advanced black ops in the galaxy, surpassing even the Spectres. The only reason the battle of the Citadel went so bad was because Saren locked down the relay network, and lokced out 90% of the Council's fleets from getting to the Citadel. 
If they had been involved in the start of the Morning War, the Council would have absolutly wiped the floor with the geth. The salarians would have developed advanced viruses ((geth are nowhere as complex or advanced as in the ME games) while the turians hammered them into dust (again, not as advanced as ME games, so no dreadnoughts).
Because the Council do not see synthetcis as alive, and therefore do not consider wiping them out as genocide, the "smug" turians, asari, and salarians would have smugly  ground the geth's literal and metaphorical face-plates into the dirt, God of War Kratos-style. And I bet you they would have laughed as they did it, too.
A.I.s are diffinitively illegal. In Mass Effect 3: Citadel, the turians are showen to encounter A.I. problems themselves. There is a recording in the Council Archives of Council military forces butchering A.I.s as they beg for mercy. The A.I.s ask in why they are attacking them, as the appeal they legally filed with the Council was not acknowladged.  The turian, asari, and salarian  give no valid answer, and proceed to gun down the three A.I.s as they beg to be spared.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:28, and watch till 1:55. You will see that the Council couldn't give a damn about the rights of synthetics, murdering a group that filed a legal appeal. They would have wiped out the geth just as brutally.
Then they would have turned on the quarians and punished them for even creating A.I.s. If the quarians had fessed up, they would have lost "the right to remain silent," and now " anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." Now they suffer lawsuits on top of sanctions and censorship. And all because the Council discovered them.

But if they wipe out the geth before the Council finds out, then the quarians are in the clear. Yes, it will be sad to lose the geth, but they must put the needs and wellfare of their people and civilization ahead of the fate of, what they still considered to be, automated machines. The Council certinly won't miss them, and quarian sociaty will survive, so there is really no choice.

And WRONG. The Council didn't minipulate them into doing it, because they didn't know the geth were problems in the first place. If they had, they would have interviened long before the Morning War ever broke out. That's what YOU do not get. The Council would have destroyed the geth and made the quarian's lives living hell, had the quarians done what YOU suggest and fess up.
There are times in life when doing the moral thing is wrong, as it only brings more pain and more damage then the alternitive. Remember what happens with James Vega's choice to abandon the colonists to save critical intel on the Collectors. In hindsight, it may not be the right call, but when you are in the moment, and the fate of your entire race hangs in the balance right in your hands, the lines can blurr. What is best? Morallity, or numbers?
Another example is Rana Thanoptis from Virmire. Save her, and she goes on to kill several top asari government officals in an indoctrinated killing spree.
Sometimes the moral answer isn't the right one. Remember Shepard's words: "Sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one."

The only organic/synthetic conflict I have ever seen in the story where we are told beyond a shadow of a doubt by both organics and synthetics who started it is the Geth/Quarian war.  All other conflicts it is never stated by both organics and synthetics who is at fault.  So we have to decide what to believe.  In just about every sci fi movie I have seen on this topic (I Robot, Terminator, Matrix), the conflict starts because organics are scared of synthetics, try to shut them down and then the machines conclude organics need to go.  If you want to get mad at someone or call someone prejudice please write to these prejudiced human authors and tell them to stop writing stories like this.  And once again, I fully admit I could be wrong about the writers intent but until I see evidence of it, I am free to speculate based on the ongoing theme that HUMAN AUTHORS write.  

I am not being a Smartass.  I never argued the Geth would win.  It doesn't matter who wins or loses, both sides will have people die was my point.  And guess what, the Council knows this which is why despite billions of Quarians dying THEY DO NOTHING.  Do you understand? In fact, the first inclination of the Council is to allegedly sent DIPLOMATIC SHIPS to talk to the Geth about Peace.  Further, when those ships get shot down allegedly, the Council DOES NOTHING except keep sending ships that keep allegedly get SHOT DOWN to make peace.  So your entire the Coucil would have killed the Geth is based on head cannon.  Fine, believe what you want.  I see no evidence that the Council would have risk their lives because I know for 100% fact they let BILLIONS of Quarians die and DID NOTHING.

And you still don't get it.  They don't have to know the Quarians have created an AI.  They just have to create a law banning synthetic life and threatening harsh sanctions for those who do and by doing so it according to you forces the Quarians to be the ones to take the risk of shutting down the Geth.  You get it now?  Your argument proves my point.  The Quarians got scared because of the Council Laws and they risked their lives to be the ones to shut down the Geth.  In the process they lost a billion lives.  The Council didn't have to lift a finger and when they found out about it, they DID NOTHING.  So yes the Quarians were played.  

The Council can live good and basically impose laws that force others to risk their lives for the glory of the Council.  It is no different than any imperial empire that has come before it. 

Wrong. The Zha'till rebellion? Javik says that there was an organic/synthetic "Metacon War" going on before the Reapers arrvied.
And every movie? Guess you never saw "I, Robot" then? The V.I.K.I. intelligence in that decided on it's own that humans were a problem. It isntigated the murder of it's overseer  then declared martial law on the city of Detroit, and ransacked the police station.
Then Will Smith (Detective Del Spooner) destroys the A.I. with help from another A.I.
So your arguement about "all of sci fi having that template" rings false. So no, it is NOT the ongoing theme.

They see this as fair punishmenmt. Do YOU understand? The quarians didn't come to them, and now they are dying. The quarians are being punished for not taking a course of action that would have shafted them, so they took another course of action to avoid that, only to be shafted anyway. It was either taking the path that "might not shaft them," or the path that "diffinitively will shaft them." The Council is ticked that the quarians did this without telling them, then attacked the geth without telling them. Ergo, the Council decides to give the quarians just what they wanted - no Council interfearance. By letting suffer for the "sin" of not obeying the "all-mighty laws of the Council."
So in short, YOUR reason had nothing to do with why they didn't help. The reason is that the Council are... well to put it short, they're dicks.
They either wipe out your A.I.'s  and put harsh scanctions on you, then sue you for all you're worth. Or they sit back and wacth you get your rears handed to you by said A.I.s and laguh if off as being fair punishment.
So NO, it isn't based on headcannon. The Council are just dicks. Did you even LOOK at the Citadel archive vid I put up here? On how they killed A.I.s? As they beged? They would have been merciless to the geth, had the quarians let them know before war broke out. Right before they nailed the quarians to the wall for it.
Besides, STG would be developing viruses for them, so they wouldn't be that at risk, Especally since a single task force of Council forces wiped out an entire faction of A.I.s on the Citadel. So risking lives has nothing to do with it.
So no, NITHER choice would have done anything.

Oh, come on, you act like that's some big revelation.
The quarians were played everyone. By themselves with their fear, by the Council with their laws, and by the geth's unantisipated evolution. So maybe you can see why they AREN'T the "amoral duchebages" you called them, when they were forced into the situation they were in by desperation and fear. The same exact things that drove the geth to do what they did in both wars as well.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 mars 2013 - 07:47 .

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Then maybe you should read what I wrote. As you're the one misinterpreting buddy.

The Quarians dying wasn't epic as much as bitter and felt realistic While I prefer that ending because the Quarians made their bed I do not feel it's "epic." The renegade peace was epic because it told them to STFU and deal with the Geth having as many rights as they did and if their stupid asses didn't stop shooting they'd get blown out of the sky because Shep was DONE saving their sorry asses from their own boneheaded mistakes.

If you want to sneer at someone at least understand what they're saying. That knee jerk "ZOMG how dare you!" is really old.

That right there. Could you at least drop the condesending attitude for a at least one page?

And it's hardly any more reaslitic if peace is avalible. Or if it's the other option. I've played all three choices, and nither Legion's betrayal or Tali's suicide are superior to each-other. A friend betrays you to save his own, and you have no choice but to kill him, or another friend commits suicide over the death of her own. And the quarians AND geth made their respecive beds, and had a hand in making each-others. No matter what you say, it's not going to change the simple fact that both sides wrought this war on themselves.

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Then maybe you should read what I wrote. As you're the one misinterpreting buddy.

The Quarians dying wasn't epic as much as bitter and felt realistic While I prefer that ending because the Quarians made their bed I do not feel it's "epic." The renegade peace was epic because it told them to STFU and deal with the Geth having as many rights as they did and if their stupid asses didn't stop shooting they'd get blown out of the sky because Shep was DONE saving their sorry asses from their own boneheaded mistakes.

If you want to sneer at someone at least understand what they're saying. That knee jerk "ZOMG how dare you!" is really old.

That right there. Could you at least drop the condesending attitude for a at least one page?

And it's hardly any more reaslitic if peace is avalible. Or if it's the other option. I've played all three choices, and nither Legion's betrayal or Tali's suicide are superior to each-other. A friend betrays you to save his own, and you have no choice but to kill him, or another friend commits suicide over the death of her own. And the quarians AND geth made their respecive beds, and had a hand in making each-others. No matter what you say, it's not going to change the simple fact that both sides wrought this war on themselves.

I treat people how they treat me buddy. You knock it off with the laugable "insights" to my personality based off my decisions in a video game and I'll stop being condescending. How about that? Or you could just ignore me if it bothers you so much. Actually I'll do it for you like I should've in the first place the IT remark showed what kind of debater you were.

That's your opinion. That and peace isn't always available (my Shep respects Koris wishes and saves his crew instead of him.). And in my game the Quarians are now extinct and the end game slide is a deserted Rannoch. *shrugs* (well unless I'm playing my renedouche then both species are fine).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2013 - 07:37 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Let's look at this from another angle.



So let's ask two simple questions.

1. Would the Geth attack if Gherel had listened? No.

2. Is Tali an Admiral in the Migrant Fleet with more intel on the situation than Gherel? Yes.

Conclusion: Gherel is an a**hole who doesn't like to listen. When we were on the Dreadnought and stoped the Reaper Code, the Dreadnought was defenseless and Shepard and Tali told him the threat was over. His stubborn a** didn't listen. Now when Tali tells him again to stop, he refuses.

Why should the Geth be killed because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? Why should the Quarians have to die because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? The answer is they shouldn't have to die but if I have to pick then sorry Quarians, Admiral Gherel is the leader you put in power so you have to pay the price for his arrogance, stubbornness, and vengeance. Admiral Gherel cost you your lives.  Tragic but that is what happens when you let a**holes lead the military.

WRONG. It is SPICIFICALLY stated by both Tali and Shepard in ME2 that the geth would attack the Migrant Fleet and destroy it, if they were aware of what Tali's father had been doing these past two years on the Alarei. (experementing on living geth as test subjects)
And I'm pretty sure @DenyonSlayer BLEW this same exact thing out of the water MILTIPLE TIMES already (proof tha t everything said to you has just gone in one ear and out the other). To reiterate, Because Shepard NEVER TELLS THEM that he/she restored the Reaper upgrades to the geth (not ONCE does Shepard say "I gave them back the upgrades"), then for all they know, the Reapers had another back-up server somewhere, and stopping the attack would not have saved them anyway. Because of that, there is no way they would know that the geth are doing this free of Reaper control. In the ending you showed, this is without shepard telling them it's in self-defence, so they don't have that information and perspective. Therefore, they have no way at that point to know that the geth will stop if they do because unlike the peace option, SHEPARD NEVER MAKES THEM AWARE OF IT, OR THAT THE GETH ARE WILLING TO DO SO RIGHT NOW. In that senerio, it's not Gerrel's fault that Shepard acted like a ****** and didn't give any warning. Juts sit's back and says "I'm sorry" to Tali.
Once again, you see, but don't observe.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope you're right. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. Shriek all you like. I'm a horrible person because I chose a genocide in a video game *sniffles* whatever shall I do...

It's cool. You made up for it by sealing Death with your soul.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Then maybe you should read what I wrote. As you're the one misinterpreting buddy.

The Quarians dying wasn't epic as much as bitter and felt realistic While I prefer that ending because the Quarians made their bed I do not feel it's "epic." The renegade peace was epic because it told them to STFU and deal with the Geth having as many rights as they did and if their stupid asses didn't stop shooting they'd get blown out of the sky because Shep was DONE saving their sorry asses from their own boneheaded mistakes.

If you want to sneer at someone at least understand what they're saying. That knee jerk "ZOMG how dare you!" is really old.

That right there. Could you at least drop the condesending attitude for a at least one page?

And it's hardly any more reaslitic if peace is avalible. Or if it's the other option. I've played all three choices, and nither Legion's betrayal or Tali's suicide are superior to each-other. A friend betrays you to save his own, and you have no choice but to kill him, or another friend commits suicide over the death of her own. And the quarians AND geth made their respecive beds, and had a hand in making each-others. No matter what you say, it's not going to change the simple fact that both sides wrought this war on themselves.

I treat people how they treat me buddy. You knock it off with the laugable "insights" to my personality based off my decisions in a video game and I'll stop being condescending. How about that? Or you could just ignore me if it bothers you so much. Actually I'll do it for you like I should've in the first place the IT remark showed what kind of debater you were.

That's your opinion. That and peace isn't always available (my Shep respects Koris wishes and saves his crew instead of him.). And in my game the Quarians are now extinct and the end game slide is a deserted Rannoch. *shrugs* (well unless I'm playing my renedouche then both species are fine).

Well, look at your post. Have you done anything to disprove it? You yourself just atmitted to being condesending.
And again, I NEVER ment for that to be a bloody insult. Didn't you read what I posted? I said that I simply didn't think anyone still believed IT since the devs pretty much killed the theroy a while back. You're the one that took it personally, remember.
...... and if it's an apology you're holding out for, all right, I'm sorry. Never ment for it to be taken so harshly.

And regardless, I haven't seen anything that makes saving one over the other any morally better unless the circumstances are different from what they are in the peace set-up. Legion is a sign that the geth would indeed reform from the isolationsit ways the geth held. The Geth V.I. is proof of the complete opposate - a race that would shaft others for the Reapers without regret if it ment survival. Which is not what Legion feels. Tali is a symbol that the quarians could well and truly forgive the geth for all that's happened. Raan represents a quarian future that would always be too afarid of taking the risk.
See the different circumatances each has?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 mars 2013 - 07:49 .

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope you're right. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. Shriek all you like. I'm a horrible person because I chose a genocide in a video game *sniffles* whatever shall I do...

It's cool. You made up for it by sealing Death with your soul.

I wanna hug you for that reference :3

On that note *THAT* was a game with a good sad ending with a hopeless battle. You were told you couldn't win...but you did...but the way you won didn't feel cheezy or just plain cheap.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...
On that note *THAT* was a game with a good sad ending with a hopeless battle. You were told you couldn't win...but you did...but the way you won didn't feel cheezy or just plain cheap.

It's the perfect synthesis of gameplay (social links making more powerful Arcanas) and theme (bonds make you stronger) producing the only ending that could have happened. Of course, now with P4A's story who knows what's going to happen with that plotline.

Nevertheless, Persona is always useful to compare to Mass Effect, because the former has a clear identity and purpose to its stories, while the latter - still being a fantastic story! - has suffered from multiple lead writers and shifts of tone.

This ties back into this thread, in that I will point out that involved analysis of the geth/quarian plotline is going to be difficult for a few reasons. One is  the entire geth plotline was essentially rewritten after ME1 to make their story have more subtlety: hence Legion and the sort-of-retcon-sort-of-not revelation of the heretic/orthodox divide. Then, it seem ME3 takes yet another stance, essentially angelicizing the geth even though we know it's not exactly appropriate given what we know about them (that they killed the vast majority of quarian civilians, for example).

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope you're right. And I'm not gonna apologize for it. Shriek all you like. I'm a horrible person because I chose a genocide in a video game *sniffles* whatever shall I do...

*picks geth again, watches Tali jump off cliff, kill Rachni Queen AGAIN, side with the Salarian dalatress AGAIN pick Destroy yet again*

Yep

The Quarians dying wasn't epic as much as bitter and felt realistic that brofist was for that. While I prefer that ending because the Quarians made their bed I do not feel it's "epic." actually yes it is an epic scene. It's not supposed to be feel good. But to me? It's epic.  The renegade peace was epic because it told them to STFU and deal with the Geth having as many rights as they did and if their stupid asses didn't stop shooting they'd get blown out of the sky because Shep was DONE saving their sorry asses from their own boneheaded mistakes. Siding with the geth was epic BECAUSE they had to deal with the geth shooting them back when they were weakened (like they did the Geth...except they (the Quarians) had wasted their opportunities to retreat). They keep shooting when they're told not to...welp not my Shep's problem. They threw themselves on the grenade after Shep told em to clear off. Sucks to be them?

If you want to sneer at someone at least understand what they're saying. That knee jerk "ZOMG how dare you!" is really old. I'm allowed to like whatever the hell I want hate to break it to you but they're pixels. I'm not hurting anyone. Just like those who destroy the geth with the justification that they're toasters. (no matter how much I disagree). But honestly your personal attacks are getting really...really old.

I <3 this post.

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...
It's the perfect synthesis of gameplay (social links making more powerful Arcanas) and theme (bonds make you stronger) producing the only ending that could have happened. Of course, now with P4A's story who knows what's going to happen with that plotline.

Nevertheless, Persona is always useful to compare to Mass Effect, because the former has a clear identity and purpose to its stories, while the latter - still being a fantastic story! - has suffered from multiple lead writers and shifts of tone.

This ties back into this thread, in that I will point out that involved analysis of the geth/quarian plotline is going to be difficult for a few reasons. One is  the entire geth plotline was essentially rewritten after ME1 to make their story have more subtlety: hence Legion and the sort-of-retcon-sort-of-not revelation of the heretic/orthodox divide. Then, it seem ME3 takes yet another stance, essentially angelicizing the geth even though we know it's not exactly appropriate given what we know about them (that they killed the vast majority of quarian civilians, for example).

I need to get P4 Golden...NEED LIKE BURNING but I can't afford a vita DX (especially not for one game!) And yes I love how the gameplay and theme mix it's lovely.

Yeah ME3 really shows that suffering.

And yeah only way I managed to "solve" the contradiction was by blaming just about everything on the heretics (save the killing quarian civilians. that was all the Geth but they were young enough to not know any better and seeing as how that's simply mimicry of what the Quarians were attempting to do to them...understable not the *best* or *wisest* course of actions but they were essentially a horde of children and had a knee jerk survival instinct.) But it's a bit meh.

Same thing happenes with the genophage. One minute it simply lowers fertility the next you're seeing a bunch of stillborns. Just...huh? Which is it?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2013 - 08:15 .

[tevix]

@Remydat

Hey! Progress!

You now seem to accept that the geth for hundreds of years rejects communications of peace and pointlessly blew up harmless diplomatic ships. Except now you've got yourself in a catch 22.

You argue the quarians should have tried peace instead of genocide first (I agree).
You then argue that it was stupid for oganics to continue to try peace. ?????
You then say the geth have every reason to hate organics because no one tried peace with them. ???

dafuq?

You still fail to address my points of allowing the heretics to nearly succeed in galactic genocide instead of stopping them when they could.

You still fail to address my points of the geth agreeing to help wipe out all life in the galaxy for their own gains.

You still fail to address my points that the geth will wipe out 100% of quarians in the rannoch arc instead of strategically targeting hostile command ships until the civilians fall back or attempt peace.

Legion lying proves him and his people cannot be trusted on their beliefs and morals, and what lengths they will go to to win.

The quarians never lie. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. They are always 100% up front, honest, and consistant about what they believe.

So...
Geth = Murderous, genocidal, self-serving, lying, heartless ba---rds
Quarians = Murderous, genocidal, honest, only partially self serving, only partially heartless ba---rds.

The choice is clear to me.

[lauraborababy]

If there is no peace option when I'm playing I kill off the quarians without question.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

In the occasion there can be no peace between them; the Quarians, every time.

My main reason?

The Heretic Geth sided with the Reapers and tried to 'convert' the rest of the Geth to do the same.

Sorry robos, but the Quarians actually contribute something to the galaxy as a whole instead of hiding behind the Veil and making alliances with Galaxy destroying cuttlefish.

And remember, to you who choose the Geth;  there are no young amongst the Geth.  Good to know you'd deny the quarian children their chance to grow up for a bunch of lines of code. 

Modifié par IliyaMoroumetz, 20 mars 2013 - 08:51 .

[DirtySHISN0]

dafangirl wrote...
@DirtySHISNO Other than if by "alive"' indoctrination can occur, sure macro/micro bits completely banal, highly doubtful, since, simply being exposed to Reaper tech caused such by in-game evidence.

I struggled with this. what are you actually suggesting? the base elements of the reapers give off indoctrination like its gamma radiation?

I suspect, seeing as the reapers were designed, the base components they run on are no more under their concious control than cells in the human body are for humans. As for those base components being aware? certainly not. Do they have some sort of aura or area of effect? Uknown. Reverse engineering these components has provided the platform for galactic life for multiple cycles over.

I always viewed the reaper upgrades as coding (because EDI is based off them aswell and because the reapers are as much codes as they are mechanics and gloop) E.g. when you find a quote that more eloquently sums up your thoughts than your own writting, you use that instead. They simply copied this vastly superior code.

[remydat]

Only-Twin wrote...

Conclusion: Gherel is an a**hole who doesn't like to listen. When we were on the Dreadnought and stoped the Reaper Code, the Dreadnought was defenseless and Shepard and Tali told him the threat was over. His stubborn a** didn't listen. Now when Tali tells him again to stop, he refuses.

Why should the Geth be killed because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? Why should the Quarians have to die because Admiral Gherel is a stubborn ******? The answer is they shouldn't have to die but if I have to pick then sorry Quarians, Admiral Gherel is the leader you put in power so you have to pay the price for his arrogance, stubbornness, and vengeance. Admiral Gherel cost you your lives. Tragic but that is what happens when you let a**holes lead the military.

I mostly agree with you, but I still don't think it has to go that way. It does come down to picking one over the other, but I suppose I just can't accept a tragedy because of one person. 

You are either accepting the extinction of the Quarians or the Geth basically because of Gherel.  The only difference is you likely don't feel killing the Geth is a tragedy which is fine.  I recognize both are tradegies and it just depends on which I view as the the greater tragedy.  For me that is basically punishing the Geth for yet another Quarian mistake which is exactly what the Quarians tried to do to the Geth 300 years ago.  How many times must the Geth be punished for the Quarians mistakes?

[Phatose]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. It is SPICIFICALLY stated by both Tali and Shepard in ME2 that the geth would attack the Migrant Fleet and destroy it, if they were aware of what Tali's father had been doing these past two years on the Alarei. (experementing on living geth as test subjects)

OK, so if I go back to ME2, side with Legion in that confrontation and let him send the Data, in Mass effect 3 the Geth will have attacked the Migrant Fleet and Destroyed it? 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's STILL claiming that organics are the first one's you consider at fault for this. The quarian/geth conflict is proof that conflicts like these are the fault of both parties. I'm not confusing anything with the prejudice you have, since you call the quarians amoral despite 50+ pages of people giving you reasons that show they are driven by the same levels of desperation that made the geth side with the Reapers.

And STOP with the smartass arrogance. The Asari warships are the largest built, if the cruisiers shown ME3 are any indication. And again, turians fought the krogan to an absolute standstill. That was pre-genophage. And salarian STG is the most advanced black ops in the galaxy, surpassing even the Spectres. The only reason the battle of the Citadel went so bad was because Saren locked down the relay network, and lokced out 90% of the Council's fleets from getting to the Citadel. 
If they had been involved in the start of the Morning War, the Council would have absolutly wiped the floor with the geth. The salarians would have developed advanced viruses ((geth are nowhere as complex or advanced as in the ME games) while the turians hammered them into dust (again, not as advanced as ME games, so no dreadnoughts).
Because the Council do not see synthetcis as alive, and therefore do not consider wiping them out as genocide, the "smug" turians, asari, and salarians would have smugly  ground the geth's literal and metaphorical face-plates into the dirt, God of War Kratos-style. And I bet you they would have laughed as they did it, too.
A.I.s are diffinitively illegal. In Mass Effect 3: Citadel, the turians are showen to encounter A.I. problems themselves. There is a recording in the Council Archives of Council military forces butchering A.I.s as they beg for mercy. The A.I.s ask in why they are attacking them, as the appeal they legally filed with the Council was not acknowladged.  The turian, asari, and salarian  give no valid answer, and proceed to gun down the three A.I.s as they beg to be spared.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:28, and watch till 1:55. You will see that the Council couldn't give a damn about the rights of synthetics, murdering a group that filed a legal appeal. They would have wiped out the geth just as brutally.
Then they would have turned on the quarians and punished them for even creating A.I.s. If the quarians had fessed up, they would have lost "the right to remain silent," and now " anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." Now they suffer lawsuits on top of sanctions and censorship. And all because the Council discovered them.

But if they wipe out the geth before the Council finds out, then the quarians are in the clear. Yes, it will be sad to lose the geth, but they must put the needs and wellfare of their people and civilization ahead of the fate of, what they still considered to be, automated machines. The Council certinly won't miss them, and quarian sociaty will survive, so there is really no choice.

And WRONG. The Council didn't minipulate them into doing it, because they didn't know the geth were problems in the first place. If they had, they would have interviened long before the Morning War ever broke out. That's what YOU do not get. The Council would have destroyed the geth and made the quarian's lives living hell, had the quarians done what YOU suggest and fess up.
There are times in life when doing the moral thing is wrong, as it only brings more pain and more damage then the alternitive. Remember what happens with James Vega's choice to abandon the colonists to save critical intel on the Collectors. In hindsight, it may not be the right call, but when you are in the moment, and the fate of your entire race hangs in the balance right in your hands, the lines can blurr. What is best? Morallity, or numbers?
Another example is Rana Thanoptis from Virmire. Save her, and she goes on to kill several top asari government officals in an indoctrinated killing spree.
Sometimes the moral answer isn't the right one. Remember Shepard's words: "Sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one."

The only organic/synthetic conflict I have ever seen in the story where we are told beyond a shadow of a doubt by both organics and synthetics who started it is the Geth/Quarian war.  All other conflicts it is never stated by both organics and synthetics who is at fault.  So we have to decide what to believe.  In just about every sci fi movie I have seen on this topic (I Robot, Terminator, Matrix), the conflict starts because organics are scared of synthetics, try to shut them down and then the machines conclude organics need to go.  If you want to get mad at someone or call someone prejudice please write to these prejudiced human authors and tell them to stop writing stories like this.  And once again, I fully admit I could be wrong about the writers intent but until I see evidence of it, I am free to speculate based on the ongoing theme that HUMAN AUTHORS write.  

I am not being a Smartass.  I never argued the Geth would win.  It doesn't matter who wins or loses, both sides will have people die was my point.  And guess what, the Council knows this which is why despite billions of Quarians dying THEY DO NOTHING.  Do you understand? In fact, the first inclination of the Council is to allegedly sent DIPLOMATIC SHIPS to talk to the Geth about Peace.  Further, when those ships get shot down allegedly, the Council DOES NOTHING except keep sending ships that keep allegedly get SHOT DOWN to make peace.  So your entire the Coucil would have killed the Geth is based on head cannon.  Fine, believe what you want.  I see no evidence that the Council would have risk their lives because I know for 100% fact they let BILLIONS of Quarians die and DID NOTHING.

And you still don't get it.  They don't have to know the Quarians have created an AI.  They just have to create a law banning synthetic life and threatening harsh sanctions for those who do and by doing so it according to you forces the Quarians to be the ones to take the risk of shutting down the Geth.  You get it now?  Your argument proves my point.  The Quarians got scared because of the Council Laws and they risked their lives to be the ones to shut down the Geth.  In the process they lost a billion lives.  The Council didn't have to lift a finger and when they found out about it, they DID NOTHING.  So yes the Quarians were played.  

The Council can live good and basically impose laws that force others to risk their lives for the glory of the Council.  It is no different than any imperial empire that has come before it. 

Wrong. The Zha'till rebellion? Javik says that there was an organic/synthetic "Metacon War" going on before the Reapers arrvied.
And every movie? Guess you never saw "I, Robot" then? The V.I.K.I. intelligence in that decided on it's own that humans were a problem. It isntigated the murder of it's overseer  then declared martial law on the city of Detroit, and ransacked the police station.
Then Will Smith (Detective Del Spooner) destroys the A.I. with help from another A.I.
So your arguement about "all of sci fi having that template" rings false. So no, it is NOT the ongoing theme.

They see this as fair punishmenmt. Do YOU understand? The quarians didn't come to them, and now they are dying. The quarians are being punished for not taking a course of action that would have shafted them, so they took another course of action to avoid that, only to be shafted anyway. It was either taking the path that "might not shaft them," or the path that "diffinitively will shaft them." The Council is ticked that the quarians did this without telling them, then attacked the geth without telling them. Ergo, the Council decides to give the quarians just what they wanted - no Council interfearance. By letting suffer for the "sin" of not obeying the "all-mighty laws of the Council."
So in short, YOUR reason had nothing to do with why they didn't help. The reason is that the Council are... well to put it short, they're dicks.
They either wipe out your A.I.'s  and put harsh scanctions on you, then sue you for all you're worth. Or they sit back and wacth you get your rears handed to you by said A.I.s and laguh if off as being fair punishment.
So NO, it isn't based on headcannon. The Council are just dicks. Did you even LOOK at the Citadel archive vid I put up here? On how they killed A.I.s? As they beged? They would have been merciless to the geth, had the quarians let them know before war broke out. Right before they nailed the quarians to the wall for it.
Besides, STG would be developing viruses for them, so they wouldn't be that at risk, Especally since a single task force of Council forces wiped out an entire faction of A.I.s on the Citadel. So risking lives has nothing to do with it.
So no, NITHER choice would have done anything.

Oh, come on, you act like that's some big revelation.
The quarians were played everyone. By themselves with their fear, by the Council with their laws, and by the geth's unantisipated evolution. So maybe you can see why they AREN'T the "amoral duchebages" you called them, when they were forced into the situation they were in by desperation and fear. The same exact things that drove the geth to do what they did in both wars as well.

Please explain to me where both an organic and synthetic said who started the Metacon War.  Do you read my posts?.  I said only one war we know where both sides agree who started it.  Javik is an organic who is obviously biased against synthetics.  There is no reason to trust his account of the Metacon War and I don't even recall him claiming he know for a fact it was started by synthetics.

The Quarians were still amoral.  They tried to kill something to cover up their mistake.  Being moral is not easy that is why so many people fail at it.  You seem to think that just because you have will be punished that means killing is not moral. That is incorrect.  And again, there is no proof the council would have done what you said it will.  They did nothing.  You can believe they would have.  I believe what I saw them do.  They could have attacked the Geth while still punishing the Quarians.  They did nothing so your theory is just that a theory.

As an aside, yes I was wrong about I, Robot,  I remembered them trying to kill the Robot helper when that murder was not his choice.  I forgot it was because of VIKI.  So fine, we have one movie where the robot started it.