remydat wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
remydat wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
That's STILL claiming that organics are the first one's you consider at fault for this. The quarian/geth conflict is proof that conflicts like these are the fault of both parties. I'm not confusing anything with the prejudice you have, since you call the quarians amoral despite 50+ pages of people giving you reasons that show they are driven by the same levels of desperation that made the geth side with the Reapers.
And STOP with the smartass arrogance. The Asari warships are the largest built, if the cruisiers shown ME3 are any indication. And again, turians fought the krogan to an absolute standstill. That was pre-genophage. And salarian STG is the most advanced black ops in the galaxy, surpassing even the Spectres. The only reason the battle of the Citadel went so bad was because Saren locked down the relay network, and lokced out 90% of the Council's fleets from getting to the Citadel.
If they had been involved in the start of the Morning War, the Council would have absolutly wiped the floor with the geth. The salarians would have developed advanced viruses ((geth are nowhere as complex or advanced as in the ME games) while the turians hammered them into dust (again, not as advanced as ME games, so no dreadnoughts).
Because the Council do not see synthetcis as alive, and therefore do not consider wiping them out as genocide, the "smug" turians, asari, and salarians would have smugly ground the geth's literal and metaphorical face-plates into the dirt, God of War Kratos-style. And I bet you they would have laughed as they did it, too.
A.I.s are diffinitively illegal. In Mass Effect 3: Citadel, the turians are showen to encounter A.I. problems themselves. There is a recording in the Council Archives of Council military forces butchering A.I.s as they beg for mercy. The A.I.s ask in why they are attacking them, as the appeal they legally filed with the Council was not acknowladged. The turian, asari, and salarian give no valid answer, and proceed to gun down the three A.I.s as they beg to be spared.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:28, and watch till 1:55. You will see that the Council couldn't give a damn about the rights of synthetics, murdering a group that filed a legal appeal. They would have wiped out the geth just as brutally.
Then they would have turned on the quarians and punished them for even creating A.I.s. If the quarians had fessed up, they would have lost "the right to remain silent," and now " anything they say can and will be used against them in a court of law." Now they suffer lawsuits on top of sanctions and censorship. And all because the Council discovered them.
But if they wipe out the geth before the Council finds out, then the quarians are in the clear. Yes, it will be sad to lose the geth, but they must put the needs and wellfare of their people and civilization ahead of the fate of, what they still considered to be, automated machines. The Council certinly won't miss them, and quarian sociaty will survive, so there is really no choice.
And WRONG. The Council didn't minipulate them into doing it, because they didn't know the geth were problems in the first place. If they had, they would have interviened long before the Morning War ever broke out. That's what YOU do not get. The Council would have destroyed the geth and made the quarian's lives living hell, had the quarians done what YOU suggest and fess up.
There are times in life when doing the moral thing is wrong, as it only brings more pain and more damage then the alternitive. Remember what happens with James Vega's choice to abandon the colonists to save critical intel on the Collectors. In hindsight, it may not be the right call, but when you are in the moment, and the fate of your entire race hangs in the balance right in your hands, the lines can blurr. What is best? Morallity, or numbers?
Another example is Rana Thanoptis from Virmire. Save her, and she goes on to kill several top asari government officals in an indoctrinated killing spree.
Sometimes the moral answer isn't the right one. Remember Shepard's words: "Sometimes the right choice isn't the easy one."
The only organic/synthetic conflict I have ever seen in the story where we are told beyond a shadow of a doubt by both organics and synthetics who started it is the Geth/Quarian war. All other conflicts it is never stated by both organics and synthetics who is at fault. So we have to decide what to believe. In just about every sci fi movie I have seen on this topic (I Robot, Terminator, Matrix), the conflict starts because organics are scared of synthetics, try to shut them down and then the machines conclude organics need to go. If you want to get mad at someone or call someone prejudice please write to these prejudiced human authors and tell them to stop writing stories like this. And once again, I fully admit I could be wrong about the writers intent but until I see evidence of it, I am free to speculate based on the ongoing theme that HUMAN AUTHORS write.
I am not being a Smartass. I never argued the Geth would win. It doesn't matter who wins or loses, both sides will have people die was my point. And guess what, the Council knows this which is why despite billions of Quarians dying THEY DO NOTHING. Do you understand? In fact, the first inclination of the Council is to allegedly sent DIPLOMATIC SHIPS to talk to the Geth about Peace. Further, when those ships get shot down allegedly, the Council DOES NOTHING except keep sending ships that keep allegedly get SHOT DOWN to make peace. So your entire the Coucil would have killed the Geth is based on head cannon. Fine, believe what you want. I see no evidence that the Council would have risk their lives because I know for 100% fact they let BILLIONS of Quarians die and DID NOTHING.
And you still don't get it. They don't have to know the Quarians have created an AI. They just have to create a law banning synthetic life and threatening harsh sanctions for those who do and by doing so it according to you forces the Quarians to be the ones to take the risk of shutting down the Geth. You get it now? Your argument proves my point. The Quarians got scared because of the Council Laws and they risked their lives to be the ones to shut down the Geth. In the process they lost a billion lives. The Council didn't have to lift a finger and when they found out about it, they DID NOTHING. So yes the Quarians were played.
The Council can live good and basically impose laws that force others to risk their lives for the glory of the Council. It is no different than any imperial empire that has come before it.
Wrong. The Zha'till rebellion? Javik says that there was an organic/synthetic "Metacon War" going on before the Reapers arrvied.
And every movie? Guess you never saw "I, Robot" then? The V.I.K.I. intelligence in that decided on it's own that humans were a problem. It isntigated the murder of it's overseer then declared martial law on the city of Detroit, and ransacked the police station.
Then Will Smith (Detective Del Spooner) destroys the A.I. with help from another A.I.
So your arguement about "all of sci fi having that template" rings false. So no, it is NOT the ongoing theme.
They see this as fair punishmenmt. Do YOU understand? The quarians didn't come to them, and now they are dying. The quarians are being punished for not taking a course of action that would have shafted them, so they took another course of action to avoid that, only to be shafted anyway. It was either taking the path that "might not shaft them," or the path that "diffinitively will shaft them." The Council is ticked that the quarians did this without telling them, then attacked the geth without telling them. Ergo, the Council decides to give the quarians just what they wanted - no Council interfearance. By letting suffer for the "sin" of not obeying the "all-mighty laws of the Council."
So in short, YOUR reason had nothing to do with why they didn't help. The reason is that the Council are... well to put it short, they're dicks.
They either wipe out your A.I.'s and put harsh scanctions on you, then sue you for all you're worth. Or they sit back and wacth you get your rears handed to you by said A.I.s and laguh if off as being fair punishment.
So NO, it isn't based on headcannon. The Council are just dicks. Did you even LOOK at the Citadel archive vid I put up here? On how they killed A.I.s? As they beged? They would have been merciless to the geth, had the quarians let them know before war broke out. Right before they nailed the quarians to the wall for it.
Besides, STG would be developing viruses for them, so they wouldn't be that at risk, Especally since a single task force of Council forces wiped out an entire faction of A.I.s on the Citadel. So risking lives has nothing to do with it.
So no, NITHER choice would have done anything.
Oh, come on, you act like that's some big revelation.
The quarians were played everyone. By themselves with their fear, by the Council with their laws, and by the geth's unantisipated evolution. So maybe you can see why they AREN'T the "amoral duchebages" you called them, when they were forced into the situation they were in by desperation and fear. The same exact things that drove the geth to do what they did in both wars as well.
Please explain to me where both an organic and synthetic said who started the Metacon War. Do you read my posts?. I said only one war we know where both sides agree who started it. Javik is an organic who is obviously biased against synthetics. There is no reason to trust his account of the Metacon War and I don't even recall him claiming he know for a fact it was started by synthetics.
The Quarians were still amoral. They tried to kill something to cover up their mistake. Being moral is not easy that is why so many people fail at it. You seem to think that just because you have will be punished that means killing is not moral. That is incorrect. And again, there is no proof the council would have done what you said it will. They did nothing. You can believe they would have. I believe what I saw them do. They could have attacked the Geth while still punishing the Quarians. They did nothing so your theory is just that a theory.
As an aside, yes I was wrong about I, Robot, I remembered them trying to kill the Robot helper when that murder was not his choice. I forgot it was because of VIKI. So fine, we have one movie where the robot started it.
Javik.
Right after you recrut him from Eden Prime, and talk to him about his culture, he says that a race of synthetics turned against the Prothean Empire, creating a "Metacon War" that the protheans were in the middle of when the Reapers invaded. Javik diffinitively states that the synthetics turned on them first. (since they are not named, and existed at an apperantly diffirent point in time as the Zha'till, they are likely a different synthetic race)
So no, I'm not the one that's been missing posts. Especally when you tried to use a point that @DenyonSlayer repeatedly disproved.
And WRONG. Just because they put the future of their race, over the future of a race that
no one knew was sentiant, does NOT make them amoral.
Look at it this way: Shepard wipes out the Alpha Relay, killing 300,000 batarians to buy the Alliance time to build against the Reapers (the Council sure isn't going to do anything). Does that action make Shepard amoral, or simply thinking about his people's well-being?
And AGAIN, like I said, either way the geth would have been killed. If the Council comes in and does it, they will punish the quarians harshly. If the quarians do it, the Council will never know there was a chance the geth could become A.I.s, and the quarians go scott free with a leason learned. They figured that either way, the geth were dead. So they put their people's safety first. And putting the future safety and welfare of your entire civilization is
basic leadership. If anything, it's the
complete opposate of being amoral.And "moral" can be considered a figurative term, here, right? Look at it like this: You have to kill someone in cold blood to save a thousand people. If you don't kill him, thousand's die. But to save them, you have to shoot this person in cold blood. (Think the conversation with the Virmire survivor during the Cerberus Coup, only there is NO option to talk them down) What would you do if that had not been scripted. What would you have done if you were completely unable to talk them down? Would you shoot them to save the many?
That choice could be considered "moral" and "amoral" by thousands respectively. The problem here is that you think your strict black and white morals are law here. Nothing is that cut and dry in life. And if you are leading a species of 2.1 billion, and you have to chose between
possible genocide, and a severe depression that will ruin your economy and civilization (wich ends with the same synthetic race dead anyway), what are you going to do?
Are you going to let your entire civilization go straight down the drain because of a race that you have no clue is even alive to begin with? A race that is basically dead anyway if the Council comes in?
And if anything, the Council isn't just in punsihment. It's like I said before, in that if you fess up, you go to jail and the other party still gets shafted regardless of you fessing up. In which, it was a mistake to do.
And AGAIN, what you "saw" is an image that is
already minipulated (Legion uses suited quarians as placeholders to represent quarians, showing that it has full minipulative control over what you see/perceve in the server). And it is only of two quarians out of
billions. One of which was
aressted, with
others, signifying they arrested more then killed. And you "saw" a death that was the result of a bomb for a door breach, and therefore may have been a
complete accident. And of events that were
before the Morning War, meaning that they don't factor into the War's death toll at ALL.
And
again, wrong. The Council likes to let people that don't ask for help clean their own messes. But A.I.'s are direct violations of Council laws. Therefore, they would have had no choice but to wipe out the geth if the quarians had told them, as they would be breaking their own laws otherwise. I ask you AGAIN to look at the A.I. group they mercilessly wiped out in the Citadel Archives of ME3: Citadel DLC. They wouldn't have stoood back if the quarians came to them. They only stood back because the quarians
didn't ask, because that would have shafted them with the Council's punsihments. So NO, by Council law, it isn't a theroy.
And that movie is proof that it isn't always the organic that causes the problem. Look at the damned Catalyst. It's attempts to follow it's directives and perserve all life led to the Reapers. And we all know how
that's turned out.
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He thought the geth were already allies of the Reapers, thanks to the Heretic's giving the galaxy that opinion.
