4712 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

You guys taking this say too serious.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

Ah, what the heck, I went back and read it. Know what I found?

You whining about me repeating arguments that have already been discussed.

Funny, the bottom half of my argument introduces new points that you fail to address.

I didn't sugar coat Xen. I stated factually based on the game what she wants.

A lousy childhood does not excuse a teenager from murder. Stop using the morning war as an excuse for present day activities.

Many people who were drafted in the vietnam served rather unwillingly. They did things they will not talk about. You talk like the quarian civilians are supposed to oppose their military law.

I dare you to go up to a vietnam veteran and tell him he failed and should have opposed his leadership if he ddn't like what he was doing.

Actually you know what, don't. You'll end up in the hospital.

The geth could easily pinpoint Flag vessels. They have the almighty reaper code that makes them virtually impervious to the quarians attacks. They chose genocide. 100% genocide. No excuse for that.

The geth can have their pride, or their lives. Not both.

What new points do you think you brought up because I saw none. 

1.  Is Xen prejudiced and does not think the Geth are worthy of life?

2.  I am not using the MW for present day activies.  The Heretics are not the Geth and the 2nd alliance with Reapers was due to their potential extinction at the hand of the Quarians who at that point knew from Shepard, Tali and Legion that the Heretics were not true Geth.  No organic race who hated their existence was going to save them so they made the only choice they could to survive.

3.  Many ****s claimed Hitler made them do it but you know what they still ended up in jail.  I was just following orders is not an excuse for committing war crimes.

4.  Please provide proof the Geth could pinpoint flagships and knew exactly which Quarians were on which vessels.  I think I missed where the Geth magically had names of who served on what vessel.  I also think I missed where the Geth knew exactly which Admirals need to be killed.  Did Tali turn traitor and tell them that if they kill Gherel, Xen, and Ran, she will be the highest ranking Admiral and call off the war.  I guess that is what her and Legion must have talked about.  Look stop trying to pass your speculation off as facts.

5.  Also please provide evidence that the Quarians would have stopped killing Geth.  I refer you to 3 above.  Following your Admirals into a campaign of Genocide is a war crime.  You don't get to claim the I was just following orders defense.

They turned on the quarians. AGAIN, NOTHING that says that they started the war. you are using asspulls at this point and stretching it out to fit your headcannon, while accusing others of what YOU are doing.
And the entire POINT is that the quarians own the fact that they started the war. They never shy away from that. Find me ONE quarian that says the geth started the war.
Again, Javik isn't someone that sugur-coats something to make his people look better. He is harsh and impartial. And since his race is dead, he hasn't got any reason to hide anything anyway. So YES, his word is pretty clear indication of what was what.
And you take the geth's recordings as valid proof, even though they all show events before the Morning War, and nothing of the actual war itself. AND when your perception of it is altered in real-time by the party in question, who has an alterior motivation for you even being here. Do you get it? And AGAIN, that the quarians started the war was NEVER IN QUESTION. That book never states the geth started the war. It says that they turned against the quarians, but NOTHING that says they started the war. You are using loopholes and asspulls.

And every race has, because of their meatings with the Council, grown exponentally. They now colonize many new worlds, and gain lots of new technology they didn't have before. They become reliant on trade routes and supplies from allies. And the quarians had to have trade for dextro supplies, which are very rare. As their culture grew, so did the need, to the point that they must start importing it from the turians to keep up with demand for their sociaty. It's like America importing oil from the middle-east, and importing more and more amounts per request as the country grows and industrilizes.
The quarians are dependant on trade from the Council to advance. All races are. Anderson tells you that any race that opposes the Council is shot down. And WRONG. 2.1 billion is an aproxximent count of their total population arcoss all their worlds, NOT just Rannoch. 2.1 billion is their total population for all their worlds. With a population that small, do you think that they could resist the Council? Look at the batarians when they were seperated from the Council.
And with their small economy, they needed good relations with the Council to have any hope of continuing advancement and creating future colonies. The sanctions, lawsuits and censorships would have utterly destroyed their small economy and ruined them. So NO, it adds up just fine.

And AGAIN, it's a group that they think is going to die anyway. Either they kill them, or the Council does. Either way, dead is dead. They figured there was no hope to save the geth, but that there was still hope for them. They considered the geth a lost cause. And AGAIN, they still didn't view the geth as alive at the time. They didn't see the geth as living beings. They saw them as an army of automated tosters that were parroting sentances they had no comprehension of. They weren't going to sacrifice their future  of their race, and the wellfare of 2.1 beings the knew were alive, for an army of machines that might be alive.
They had to put their people first. You really have no grip of what moral choices are, do you, or that NOTHING in life is ever that cut and dry, especally not in cases like this. It's the difference of sacrificing billions fo living people for a group that you don't know is alive, and is likely going to die anyway. It ISN'T any more amoral then Shepard throwing away 300,000 batartains just to delay the Reapers. So in truth, I really don't think you have any idea of what "amoral" really means.

And I'm in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, ZIP code 53121, USA,  if you must know. I live 30 minutes from the plazas where just about every store you know is based there. (yes, I'm brave/stupid to do this)

Dude you still are not getting it.  I never said the Quarians denied who started it.  I am saying Javik saying the synthetics TURNED on organics during the metacon war is not proof that tthe synthentics started the war for the very reason that the writers use the same word TURNED to describe a situation where we all know the Quarians attacked first.  Find me a passage where Javik and a synthetic says synthetics started the Metacon War.

I accept the recordings because there is nothing in them that is contradicted by what the Quarians said.  What exactly do you think I should doubt about them?  

Name me another world the Quarians inhabited and their total population? As far as I am aware they have Rannoch and a moon.  If they had other worlds outside their immediate homeworld then why didn't they settle there instead of become a bunch of refugees in space?  I think we played two different games or you have some downloadable content I don't.  So no, I don't buy you theory. 

And yeah you telling me the same thing about the Council doesn't change a thing.  It and the Quarians were amoral.  You don't get to tell me what my morality is.  I choose that for myself.  I am beginning to see why you like the Quarians.  You seem to think I should just submit to your judgment,

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

You guys taking this say too serious.

This is the internet dude.  This is serious business.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But AGAIN, how exactally is Gerrel (you keep mispelling his name) supposed to KNOW this? Magic future sight? As far as he knew, the geth have been willing allies of the Reapers since Eden Prime. Hostile ot organics long beofre now. No concern to them for 300 years. He has no hard proof that they were ever peacefull. He can't trust anything Legion says, anymore then a salarian would trust the word of a krogan.
HOW the hell is he supposed to know the geth will not fire back if he stopps, unless you TELL him. Because guess what? If you inform him that the geth won't shoot back if he stops shooting, HE STOPS SHOOTING. If what you keep saying is true, then Gerrel would have continued to shoot regardless of Shepard telling him to stop. But NO. If you tell him they won't shoot, then he DOES stop.
The problem here is that you continue to look at everything in hindsight.
Gerrel doesn't know the geth will stop if he does because Shepard never tells him, so he keeps shooting.
OR
Gerrel doesn't know the geth will stop unless he does, until Shepard tells him about this, in which case, HE STOPS.

So WRONG. If you say nothing, then the one - the SOLE person - that is responcible for their deaths, is SHEPARD.
And in Paragon, Shepard gives clear exposits that the quarians forced the geth into this, and that they do not want to fight, and that "if you can beleve that for even a second, then this war will be over."
The fact that the geth have no desire to fire back unless provoked is new information to Gerrel, as up intil now, the geth have been considered enemies of the free galaxy and of organics in general since Eden Prime 3 years ago. And he therefore stops shooting.
Shepard has the power here to inform Gerrel. If it doesn't let you, then it's STILL Shepard's fault for not being able to tell the quarians otherwise. The truth is, no matter how you look at it, the genocide of the quarians is SHEPARD'S fault, NOT Gerrel's.

Tali and Legion were teammates.  You can do Tali's loyalty mission with Legion.  Shepard is in contact with the Quarians.  Gherel (he doesn't deserve to have his name spelled right) has ample sources to confirm the Heretics are not the real Geth.  What you really mean is the stubborn douchebag doesn't want to listen to anyone's opinion but his own.

Let me repeat this one more time.  It is a game.   Tali is standing right next to Legion and can see he is uploading the code.  She in fact begs him to stop.  She would have to be the BIGGEST F**KING IDIOT IN THE HISTORY OF BIGGEST F**KING IDIOTS to not tell Gherel that the reason she is telling him to stand down is because the Geth are going to massacre them.  So the logical question is why does she not tell him?  The obvious answer is because it is a game with different dialogue options if you play you cards right.  And since Shepard is the hero of the game, if you play your cards right he gets to tell Gherel that the Geth will massacre them or that the Geth don't want to fire at them.  

So the reason Tali doesn't tell Gherel is because the writers made a mistake and missed the fact that Tali telling Gherel to stand down without telling him the Geth will massacre them makes her look like the BIGGEST F**KING IDIOT IN THE HISTORY OF BIGGEST F**KING IDIOTS .  Now you can remain delusional and pretend like that was the writers intent ie for Tali and Shepard not to reveal that the Geth will massacre them because they are idiots, pricks or Tali is a traitor.  Either way Gherel causes the death of his people or a Quarian Tali does.  Doesn't matter to me which you believe because it still means the Quarians die either because Gherel is a douchebag or Tail is the BIGGEST F**KING IDIOT IN THE HISTORY OF BIGGEST F**KING IDIOTS.

AGAIN, WRONG. At this rate, you are making yourself the exact same thing you acuse Gerrel of being.
First off, if a Reaper came up to you and said "we aren't killing you, we are changing you so that you can live forever," would YOU believe it? If not, how the HELL do you expect Gerrel to believe the word of Legion. Shepard's ONLY source of information on the Heretics is a geth, and after the Battle of the Citadel, Eden Prime, and now the Aleiri, Gerrel has absolutly no reason to trust anything Legion says at face-value. Especally since no other geth except Heretics have been encountered by anyone but Shepard, who's word is completely inadmissable because of Cerberus ties. When the source of information is a human captining a ship belonging to Cerberus, (which attacked them 2 years ago) with a geth on one side, and a quarian being tried for treason for experimenting with geth on the other side, it tends to make anything said be in the "shaky information" catagory.
Hell, not even KORIS take's Legion's presance well, chastizing Tali for bringing Legion, then asking if she intends to threaten the Admiralty Board using Legion. Again, KORIS THE GETH SYMPATHISER does this.

So, since Shepard's word isn't acceptible because of Cerberus standings, and Tali's word isn't acceptible because her source is a geth, and Legion's word isn't acceptible because every single geth encountered by the wider galaxy has been a Heretic, then WHAT "ample sources" ARE  there that tells Gerrel a word of this is real?
Anderson isn't able to take what Shepard says as true at face-value, for fear of the Illusive Man feeding him false information. Yet you expect Gerrel to do it, and take Shepard's word a face-value, and disregard the possibility that Legion is giving false information?  When, like with Cerberus, there is no avalible cooberating evidence the geth's word being the truth? It's blatent favortisim and prejudice on your part.  Don't you see that?

She is nieve. She isn't able to bring herself to shoot a friend, which is what she considers Legion. Or to disobey Shepard's decision to allow the upload. She is basically in shock, unresponcive, panicking and shutting down. Common sense basically fell out the window at the realization that Shepard, who she trusted with her life, would allow the genocide of her people, which makes her basically shut down.
You should know that handeling stressful situations like that regarding shocking things like this isn't her strong point. In her trial, Shepard has to do the talking because Tali shuts down in the trial, especally after the anouncement of her father's assumed death. Recover the data on her father, and she is completely willing to just let it hit her, and not do anything to try and defend herself without needing the data and comprimising her father. She is perfectly willing to let it go there, because she is panicking and doesn't know what to do.

And I remind you that on Earth, Shepard forces the Normandy to land right in front of Harbinger to save two critically injured people and risk the billions upon billions of lives in the galaxy for said two people. You don't think THAT'S stupid? If not for Harbinger considering the Normandy not worth the effort of shooting, they would have all died because of Shepard right there.
Or how, in ME2, when the Gunship appears in front of Garrus on Omega, instead of doing the smart thing and ducking, he swings his gun around to face the chainguns full blast?
Or how Miranda let's Niket get shot by that Eclipse commando, not even realizing that thug is pulling her gun.
Or how Kasumi would rather let the galaxy burn to be in her hologram world until you get through to her?
Or how Legion messed with Reaper code without telling anyone?

Face it. People do stupid things. I can count 5 moments stupider off the top of my head, and just did at that.  So don't call ME delusional.
Besides, it's more understandible. Tali becomes a dear in head-lights when she realizes Shepard (and Legion, if present and alive) are betraying her and comiting the genocide of her entire race. She shuts down.
Grow some sympathy, will you?

I guess we imagined Legion having a chance to put a bullet in Shepards skull and killing all those Geth with me.  Information was provided to them.  If they didn't trust it they could investigate further.  If I think someone is guilty and 2 people including a fellow Quarian tells me something I don't just ignore it and keep killing things.  As a sensible human being I would seek out information that either validates or invaldates what I was told.  But then again, my parents taught me morals.

This sh*t is hilarious.  So you are telling me the Quarians have as their leaders, a douchebag, a prejudice amoral ****** (Xen), a coward who can't stand up to them (Ran), and an incompetent who when her people needed her most could only say "Stand Down," but magically shock prevents her for saying "because the Geth will kill you."  Look I am speechless right now so I will let the movie Billy Madison speak for me.

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Sorry now that I have recovered from the shock of pulling a Tali, You do realise all those examples if accurate which I don't care to fact check are merely examples of the game designers f**king up.  The intent was not for the characters to actually be stupid, the game desiginers just made dumb mistakes because they are huan.  Do you think game desiginers are infallible gods who don't **** up.  They f**ked up.  Unless you can provide me clear cut evidence that the game desiginer intended for the characters to be so stupid, inventing in-game reasons for their stupidity is well I refer you to the above quote. 

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

[Xilizhra]

5. Gerrel stops shooting when he discovers the geth are willing to do the same, isn't he? THAT right there is the proof. And again, the Admirals were attacking a race that has been listed as Reaper allies for 3 years, and to the knowledge of the wider galaxy, attampted genocide of the entire galaxy with Sovergien. They do not know otherwise until right at the moment Shepard contacts them and tells them otherwise, because before that, there was nothing to suggest the geth cared about organics even before the Battle of the Citadel. So your point is completely and utterly false.

So, Shepard telling them that before the war doesn't work, but telling them that at the very end of the war when Gerrel thinks that the quarians are on the verge of final victory does? Consistency, ho?

Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even
alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be
prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs
with corrupted software.

But... this makes no damned sense. Not seeing them as alive is the prejudice.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 mars 2013 - 08:29 .

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

And AGAIN, it's a group that they think is going to die anyway. Either they kill them, or the Council does. Either way, dead is dead. They figured there was no hope to save the geth, but that there was still hope for them. They considered the geth a lost cause. And AGAIN, they still didn't view the geth as alive at the time. They didn't see the geth as living beings. They saw them as an army of automated tosters that were parroting sentances they had no comprehension of. They weren't going to sacrifice their future of their race, and the wellfare of 2.1 beings the knew were alive, for an army of machines that might be alive.

This is blatantly wrong. The quarians tried to murder every geth because the geth were alive and self-aware; if they hadn't been, there'd have been no problem.

They had to put their people first. You really have no grip of what moral choices are, do you, or that NOTHING in life is ever that cut and dry, especally not in cases like this. It's the difference of sacrificing billions fo living people for a group that you don't know is alive, and is likely going to die anyway. It ISN'T any more amoral then Shepard throwing away 300,000 batartains just to delay the Reapers. So in truth, I really don't think you have any idea of what "amoral" really means.

No, actually, it's much more amoral, given that there was no real proof that the geth would all be killed (nor, again, do the quarians ever mention this as a factor in their decision, even the ones who most greatly support it, so this is entirely headcanon).

WRONG. They didn't know the geth were self-aware. Just that they were leaning to it. That's not indicitive of it being true. AVINA V.I.s can be made to look realistic, and mimic emotions, but they aren't intelligent. They didn;t know for sure if it wasn't just a qurik in the software. So NO, it's NOT false.

And AGAIN, WRONG. No one in their right mind would throw away the future and welfare of 2.1 billion people for a group that no one knows is alive, and in all likelyhood will die either way, either by their hand or the Council. It's like sacrificing an entire colony to save the Collectors, just because there might be a chance they are still living beings deep down.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. No. She simply doesn't believe that machines CAN be alive. She is completely incapable of believeing that any machine is able to be alive, stating that no matter how much it "mimics" life that "it is still just a machine, and can be dismantled whenever it's master wishes."

2. And the same could be said of the quarians, remember? No one was going to be able to provide shelter for 15 million high maintinance civilians, nor suppliy them with a months worth of supplies every day. The only choice THEY had was to take back Rannoch. And AGAIN, no one knew the Heretics didn't represent the geth.

3. Who are you to judge that? How are you so certan? Besides, the geth are a networked intelligence, so they uninamomiusly made the coice to kill civilians, making them ALL to blame for that choice. So NO, they are not excusible. Self-defense agains people shooting them is one thing. Killing everyone in the area, including aliens and civilians, ISN'T.

4. The geth are able to cooridnate hundreds of geth fighters to intercept incoming quarian ship fire, by sacrificing the fighters to block every single individual shot from hitting the geth crusiers, intercepting every single incoming shot with perfect precision and accuracy. You expect me to believe that they can do THAT, and yet can't make precise ship-to-ship shots? Get real. Also, hacking the comm signal between quarian ships and tracing the signal back to a command ship should not be that hard for them with the Reaper code.
Stop calling out people when YOU are the one not looking at the facts presented in-game.

5. Gerrel stops shooting when he discovers the geth are willing to do the same, isn't he? THAT right there is the proof. And again, the Admirals were attacking a race that has been listed as Reaper allies for 3 years, and to the knowledge of the wider galaxy, attampted genocide of the entire galaxy with Sovergien. They do not know otherwise until right at the moment Shepard contacts them and tells them otherwise, because before that, there was nothing to suggest the geth cared about organics even before the Battle of the Citadel. So your point is completely and utterly false.

1.  Which makes her prejudiced against machines.

2.  No they could have asked Shepard and Tali to initiate peace talks with Legion.  Furthermore, you claimed they had other worlds that they absolutely needed to prevent economic collapse. Why not settle on them?

3.  Shepard and Tali knew and told the Quarians about the heretics.  And I am a human being with free will and am entitled to judge people based on their actions.  Just as you are.  There is no evidence the Geth understand the difference between a civilan and soldier especially when Quarians like to use Civilians in war.

4.  This is an opinion.  I want evidence.  If I want an opinion, I can come up with my own.  Show me where it is ever claimed they hacked a single to obtain information on which Quarians a**holes needed to be sought down on which fighters.  Do you know what a fact is?  It is not you telling me your opinion about something never shown in the game.

5.  No that is a function of the game mechanics.  You Tali was shocked makes no sense.  None.   It is a fact Legion tried to kill Shepard and didn't.  He could have killed Tali but didn't.  He fought and killed other Geth with Shepard and Tali.  He carries Shepard's N7 armor that Shepard lost in the Collector Base crash.  I saw those things in the Game.  I don't have to invest them, I don't have to pretend they exist.  There were in the game.

[Xilizhra]

WRONG. They didn't know the geth were self-aware. Just that they were leaning to it. That's not indicitive of it being true. AVINA V.I.s can be made to look realistic, and mimic emotions, but they aren't intelligent. They didn;t know for sure if it wasn't just a qurik in the software. So NO, it's NOT false.

Then... why kill them? Why would the Council even move in if they didn't think the geth were alive? Why does that even matter when, again, the quarians never mentioned that as a reason for their actions?

And AGAIN, WRONG. No one in their right mind would throw away the future and welfare of 2.1 billion people for a group that no one knows is alive, and in all likelyhood will die either way, either by their hand or the Council. It's like sacrificing an entire colony to save the Collectors, just because there might be a chance they are still living beings deep down.

Ah, so everyone in their right mind is genocidal? I suppose that makes me a madwoman, then. Oh well, only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

5. Gerrel stops shooting when he discovers the geth are willing to do the same, isn't he? THAT right there is the proof. And again, the Admirals were attacking a race that has been listed as Reaper allies for 3 years, and to the knowledge of the wider galaxy, attampted genocide of the entire galaxy with Sovergien. They do not know otherwise until right at the moment Shepard contacts them and tells them otherwise, because before that, there was nothing to suggest the geth cared about organics even before the Battle of the Citadel. So your point is completely and utterly false.

So, Shepard telling them that before the war doesn't work, but telling them that at the very end of the war when Gerrel thinks that the quarians are on the verge of final victory does? Consistency, ho?

Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even
alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be
prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs
with corrupted software.

But... this makes no damned sense. Not seeing them as alive is the prejudice.

That was before Shepard risked life and limb to save them from Reapers and geth. Shepard risked his/her life to save them, so there is now reason to give the Commander the benifit of a doubt.

No. Prejudice is thinking one living being has lesser rights then another living being.
What Xen does doesn't have real term. Specicide, maybe.Just call it "uber-prejudice" for simplisity's sake if yiu want to.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

WRONG. They didn't know the geth were self-aware. Just that they were leaning to it. That's not indicitive of it being true. AVINA V.I.s can be made to look realistic, and mimic emotions, but they aren't intelligent. They didn;t know for sure if it wasn't just a qurik in the software. So NO, it's NOT false.

Then... why kill them? Why would the Council even move in if they didn't think the geth were alive? Why does that even matter when, again, the quarians never mentioned that as a reason for their actions?

And AGAIN, WRONG. No one in their right mind would throw away the future and welfare of 2.1 billion people for a group that no one knows is alive, and in all likelyhood will die either way, either by their hand or the Council. It's like sacrificing an entire colony to save the Collectors, just because there might be a chance they are still living beings deep down.

Ah, so everyone in their right mind is genocidal? I suppose that makes me a madwoman, then. Oh well, only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Council law is why they were afriad of the geth to begin with. If the Council thought there was a risk, they would have come in and strelized them piecemeal. A.I.s are a big no-no for them. They forced harsh scanctions on the Eliza  A.I at the Aliance's Gagarian Station in Mass Effect: Revelation, and had Saren go out "investigate"  a batarian group that was studing A.I.
The Council has laws against A.I.s, but especally unshackled A.I.s like the geth. They consider any self-aware machine with free will to be dangerous and uncontrolible, and therefore a risk to sociaty. The only reason they didn't go after the geth at the end of the Morning War was because they didn't want the hassle of dealing with it unless it was nessessary. (And honestly, looking back at it, the harsh genocide of the quarians may have made them a bit more weary, and a little less gun-ho about taking them apart without absolutly needing to). Either way, they decided that if the geth weren't leaving the Veil, there was no reason to deal with the problem. IDK if you noticed, but the Council likes letting problems fester.

And WRONG. It's trading possible genocide for surefire genocide. But again, they didn't see the geth as alive, so they figured that they weren't destroying anything they couldn't rebuild. That changed after the geth retaliated.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

[Xilizhra]

And WRONG. It's trading possible genocide for surefire genocide. But again, they didn't see the geth as alive, so they figured that they weren't destroying anything they couldn't rebuild. That changed after the geth retaliated.

Well, genocide is certainly what they got.

[remydat]

Xilizhra wrote...

And WRONG. It's trading possible genocide for surefire genocide. But again, they didn't see the geth as alive, so they figured that they weren't destroying anything they couldn't rebuild. That changed after the geth retaliated.

Well, genocide is certainly what they got.

You don't get it man.  You committ surefire genocide when told of a harmless synthetic race.  You let things fester when that harmless genetic race is driven by their creators to kill a billion of them.

This is like the best policing system ever.  Just avoid the council prior to killing someone but then kill a sh*t load of people and the council will leave you alone.

Council Official - Apprehend that completely innocent person who has committed no crime.

Innocent person (runs off kills some people returns soaked in blood) - Sorry I already killed all those people over there.

Council Official - D**mnit, was too late again, ok chief just go over there where I can't see you.

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 09:02 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

Ah, what the heck, I went back and read it. Know what I found?

You whining about me repeating arguments that have already been discussed.

Funny, the bottom half of my argument introduces new points that you fail to address.

I didn't sugar coat Xen. I stated factually based on the game what she wants.

A lousy childhood does not excuse a teenager from murder. Stop using the morning war as an excuse for present day activities.

Many people who were drafted in the vietnam served rather unwillingly. They did things they will not talk about. You talk like the quarian civilians are supposed to oppose their military law.

I dare you to go up to a vietnam veteran and tell him he failed and should have opposed his leadership if he ddn't like what he was doing.

Actually you know what, don't. You'll end up in the hospital.

The geth could easily pinpoint Flag vessels. They have the almighty reaper code that makes them virtually impervious to the quarians attacks. They chose genocide. 100% genocide. No excuse for that.

The geth can have their pride, or their lives. Not both.

What new points do you think you brought up because I saw none. 

1.  Is Xen prejudiced and does not think the Geth are worthy of life?

2.  I am not using the MW for present day activies.  The Heretics are not the Geth and the 2nd alliance with Reapers was due to their potential extinction at the hand of the Quarians who at that point knew from Shepard, Tali and Legion that the Heretics were not true Geth.  No organic race who hated their existence was going to save them so they made the only choice they could to survive.

3.  Many ****s claimed Hitler made them do it but you know what they still ended up in jail.  I was just following orders is not an excuse for committing war crimes.

4.  Please provide proof the Geth could pinpoint flagships and knew exactly which Quarians were on which vessels.  I think I missed where the Geth magically had names of who served on what vessel.  I also think I missed where the Geth knew exactly which Admirals need to be killed.  Did Tali turn traitor and tell them that if they kill Gherel, Xen, and Ran, she will be the highest ranking Admiral and call off the war.  I guess that is what her and Legion must have talked about.  Look stop trying to pass your speculation off as facts.

5.  Also please provide evidence that the Quarians would have stopped killing Geth.  I refer you to 3 above.  Following your Admirals into a campaign of Genocide is a war crime.  You don't get to claim the I was just following orders defense.

They turned on the quarians. AGAIN, NOTHING that says that they started the war. you are using asspulls at this point and stretching it out to fit your headcannon, while accusing others of what YOU are doing.
And the entire POINT is that the quarians own the fact that they started the war. They never shy away from that. Find me ONE quarian that says the geth started the war.
Again, Javik isn't someone that sugur-coats something to make his people look better. He is harsh and impartial. And since his race is dead, he hasn't got any reason to hide anything anyway. So YES, his word is pretty clear indication of what was what.
And you take the geth's recordings as valid proof, even though they all show events before the Morning War, and nothing of the actual war itself. AND when your perception of it is altered in real-time by the party in question, who has an alterior motivation for you even being here. Do you get it? And AGAIN, that the quarians started the war was NEVER IN QUESTION. That book never states the geth started the war. It says that they turned against the quarians, but NOTHING that says they started the war. You are using loopholes and asspulls.

And every race has, because of their meatings with the Council, grown exponentally. They now colonize many new worlds, and gain lots of new technology they didn't have before. They become reliant on trade routes and supplies from allies. And the quarians had to have trade for dextro supplies, which are very rare. As their culture grew, so did the need, to the point that they must start importing it from the turians to keep up with demand for their sociaty. It's like America importing oil from the middle-east, and importing more and more amounts per request as the country grows and industrilizes.
The quarians are dependant on trade from the Council to advance. All races are. Anderson tells you that any race that opposes the Council is shot down. And WRONG. 2.1 billion is an aproxximent count of their total population arcoss all their worlds, NOT just Rannoch. 2.1 billion is their total population for all their worlds. With a population that small, do you think that they could resist the Council? Look at the batarians when they were seperated from the Council.
And with their small economy, they needed good relations with the Council to have any hope of continuing advancement and creating future colonies. The sanctions, lawsuits and censorships would have utterly destroyed their small economy and ruined them. So NO, it adds up just fine.

And AGAIN, it's a group that they think is going to die anyway. Either they kill them, or the Council does. Either way, dead is dead. They figured there was no hope to save the geth, but that there was still hope for them. They considered the geth a lost cause. And AGAIN, they still didn't view the geth as alive at the time. They didn't see the geth as living beings. They saw them as an army of automated tosters that were parroting sentances they had no comprehension of. They weren't going to sacrifice their future  of their race, and the wellfare of 2.1 beings the knew were alive, for an army of machines that might be alive.
They had to put their people first. You really have no grip of what moral choices are, do you, or that NOTHING in life is ever that cut and dry, especally not in cases like this. It's the difference of sacrificing billions fo living people for a group that you don't know is alive, and is likely going to die anyway. It ISN'T any more amoral then Shepard throwing away 300,000 batartains just to delay the Reapers. So in truth, I really don't think you have any idea of what "amoral" really means.

And I'm in Elkhorn, Wisconsin, ZIP code 53121, USA,  if you must know. I live 30 minutes from the plazas where just about every store you know is based there. (yes, I'm brave/stupid to do this)

Dude you still are not getting it.  I never said the Quarians denied who started it.  I am saying Javik saying the synthetics TURNED on organics during the metacon war is not proof that tthe synthentics started the war for the very reason that the writers use the same word TURNED to describe a situation where we all know the Quarians attacked first.  Find me a passage where Javik and a synthetic says synthetics started the Metacon War.

I accept the recordings because there is nothing in them that is contradicted by what the Quarians said.  What exactly do you think I should doubt about them?  

Name me another world the Quarians inhabited and their total population? As far as I am aware they have Rannoch and a moon.  If they had other worlds outside their immediate homeworld then why didn't they settle there instead of become a bunch of refugees in space?  I think we played two different games or you have some downloadable content I don't.  So no, I don't buy you theory. 

And yeah you telling me the same thing about the Council doesn't change a thing.  It and the Quarians were amoral.  You don't get to tell me what my morality is.  I choose that for myself.  I am beginning to see why you like the Quarians.  You seem to think I should just submit to your judgment,

No. Again, YOU fail to understand.
Javik has zero reason to lie at this point and is never sugar-coats anything. Just at the quarian's were striaght about them starting the Morning War, Javik is straight about the synthetcis starting the Metacon War. Simple as that.

And I aslo remind you that there is nothing that anyone says that contridicts what the Catalyst says. Does that make what it does right?
And like I JUST said, what you shoud doubt about them, is the fact that Legion straight-up admits he has full control of how you percieve the information, like how he uses suited quarians as placeholders in the images insetad of showing how they really looked. And that the server he's on is overrun by Heretics and Reaper code. AND how Legion's entire premise for bringing you here is to use you as a decoy so that it can get the geth out of that server.

Heastrom. Adas. Kaddi. Ket'osh. Uriyah. These are all quarian worlds, as well as every system the geth took. And according to Gerrel, the geth had at least more then four systems they went through to get to Rannoch, not including Rannoch's own system. So there were at least seven systems the quarians owned.  THAT'S your proof.
And as stated repeatedly, the geth took every single world the quarians owned. And for 300 years, the quarians did nothing BUT look for a new world.
But they need a world that's (a) dextro-based, ( in the "shirt-sleeves" habital temperature zone, © has oxygen-based air, (d) has air particals that don't kill when the breathe it in, (e) has food sources that don't need to be reduced to sterilized paste to eat. (f) has tolirable gravity levels, (g) has clean water composition, and (h) has Rannoch's same insect-free symbiotic ecology that they are physologicly require to restore their immune systems.
How many worlds like THAT do you think there are? Any worlds they terraformed using plants exported from Rannoch are under geth control. Any other habitable dextro worlds that even come CLOSE are all turian settled. They eventually tried settling world that WOULDN'T be very hospitible to them, like the high-gravity world of Ekuna. They settled, the patitoned the Coincil for rights, who in turn demanded the world be turned over to them or they would send dreadnoughts to bomb any quarians that weren't off the planet in a day. So NO, it WASN'T that simple. They weren't space refugees by CHOICE.

You are the one that would sacrifice the welfare of 2.1 billion people for what everyone assumed were no better then husks. They didn't believe the geth were alive, or that they were destorying anything that couldn't be replicated. You trash the quarians for acting desperate and doing what they needed to for the sake of preserving the culture. You support the geth doing the exact same thing by siding with the Reapers, yet chastize the quarians for it?
The correct responce is that you don't get to tell anyone about moral and amoral when you have such nieve viewpoints about right and wrong, and thinking that everything is going to conform to yoiur strict sence of right and wrong. Everything is black and white to you, and you never bother to look at the gray. and you do it all from prejudiced viewpoints. You support the geth doing what they did in desperation to preserve their culture, yet chastize the quarians for doing the same. The quarians did it at the geth's expence, and you hate them. The geth did it at the galaxy's expence, and you endorce them.
See the flaws? So again, don't act like you have the right to lecture anyone when you never bother to look at it from anyone elses viewpoint.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

Tali is made Admiral post trial when she is no longer "discraced", remember?
And you really think Gerrel is going to come aborard a Cerberus ship that is run by a Cerberus-Shackled A.I. to speak with a geth? Only SHEPARD ever knows about the split. And AGAIN, Shepard's word isn't trustible because of Cerberus standings.
And regarding the Council, if someone knocked on your door and told you a statue told you the world was going to end and everyone was going to be killed by gaint living robot cuttlefish, would YOU believe them at face value? No. You'd brand them a crackpot or a nutcase. Especally if they have absolutly nothing to back up the claim with. So NO, that doesn't weaken my case. If anything, it shows you trust one person on face-value blind faith, then chastize someone else for not doing exactally what the person you trust didn't do.

And the fact you don't care when it's the same thing proves alot. Namely that you are prejudiced against organic problems. Headcannon yourself all you want, you can't ignore the geth were the orcistrators of their fate just as much as the quarians were.

And AGAIN, it's what's considered mechs over the futrue of 2.1 billion. And for a race that is likely dead anyway, and assumed to be rebuildible.

And again, you're prejudice. Getting apathy from you is like getting water from a stone. No one could cope with the shock of someone so close to them betraying them like that. Especally not someone as sensitive as Tali. It would devestate her just by the thought of it.

[andy6915]

@silverexile17s

You've been kicking ass in this debate... Buuuuut.... I do have to argue something you've said. Don't know about your games, but in mine Legion comes with me to Tali's loyalty mission. A Geth peacefully walks around their live ship, not hurting anyone and even outright CONVERSES with Xen and Koris and makes it clear it's a true Geth and not just a simple mech with a Geth chasis. Shepard has a dialogue option to tell EVERY SINGLE admiral that about the Geth schism and hear their responses about it.

And yes you can pull that off without losing any crew. You just need to save Tali and Legion's LMs for last and do them back-to-back. I've done it on several playthroughs.

Here's a video of someone bringing Legion-



There's several more parts after that from the same Youtube user showing the entire LM.

Modifié par andy69156915, 21 mars 2013 - 09:39 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

No. Again, YOU fail to understand.
Javik has zero reason to lie at this point and is never sugar-coats anything. Just at the quarian's were striaght about them starting the Morning War, Javik is straight about the synthetcis starting the Metacon War. Simple as that.

And I aslo remind you that there is nothing that anyone says that contridicts what the Catalyst says. Does that make what it does right?
And like I JUST said, what you shoud doubt about them, is the fact that Legion straight-up admits he has full control of how you percieve the information, like how he uses suited quarians as placeholders in the images insetad of showing how they really looked. And that the server he's on is overrun by Heretics and Reaper code. AND how Legion's entire premise for bringing you here is to use you as a decoy so that it can get the geth out of that server.

Heastrom. Adas. Kaddi. Ket'osh. Uriyah. These are all quarian worlds, as well as every system the geth took. And according to Gerrel, the geth had at least more then four systems they went through to get to Rannoch, not including Rannoch's own system. So there were at least seven systems the quarians owned.  THAT'S your proof.
And as stated repeatedly, the geth took every single world the quarians owned. And for 300 years, the quarians did nothing BUT look for a new world.
But they need a world that's (a) dextro-based, ( in the "shirt-sleeves" habital temperature zone, © has oxygen-based air, (d) has air particals that don't kill when the breathe it in, (e) has food sources that don't need to be reduced to sterilized paste to eat. (f) has tolirable gravity levels, (g) has clean water composition, and (h) has Rannoch's same insect-free symbiotic ecology that they are physologicly require to restore their immune systems.
How many worlds like THAT do you think there are? Any worlds they terraformed using plants exported from Rannoch are under geth control. Any other habitable dextro worlds that even come CLOSE are all turian settled. They eventually tried settling world that WOULDN'T be very hospitible to them, like the high-gravity world of Ekuna. They settled, the patitoned the Coincil for rights, who in turn demanded the world be turned over to them or they would send dreadnoughts to bomb any quarians that weren't off the planet in a day. So NO, it WASN'T that simple. They weren't space refugees by CHOICE.

You are the one that would sacrifice the welfare of 2.1 billion people for what everyone assumed were no better then husks. They didn't believe the geth were alive, or that they were destorying anything that couldn't be replicated. You trash the quarians for acting desperate and doing what they needed to for the sake of preserving the culture. You support the geth doing the exact same thing by siding with the Reapers, yet chastize the quarians for it?
The correct responce is that you don't get to tell anyone about moral and amoral when you have such nieve viewpoints about right and wrong, and thinking that everything is going to conform to yoiur strict sence of right and wrong. Everything is black and white to you, and you never bother to look at the gray. and you do it all from prejudiced viewpoints. You support the geth doing what they did in desperation to preserve their culture, yet chastize the quarians for doing the same. The quarians did it at the geth's expence, and you hate them. The geth did it at the galaxy's expence, and you endorce them.
See the flaws? So again, don't act like you have the right to lecture anyone when you never bother to look at it from anyone elses viewpoint.

1.  Please direct me to where I can her Javik say synthetics STARTED war.  He said they TURNED which we know does not mean definitively that they started it.

2.  Rannoch, Adas, and Uriyah are all in the same system.  That is like Mercury, Venus and Earth.  None of those require trade with anyone or travel on Mass Relays.  Adas was a mining planet with a small population.  They could easily return to Rannoch and live.  Uriyah als mining with no population to speak of.  Haestrom was used strictly as observation planet so again no population to speak of.  The Far Rim which is right by the Veil.  Perhaps you missed the point I was making.  The other races have colonies spread far across the galaxy and requrie relays to get there.  They have huge populations on those planets.  I asked you to find me a planet owned by the Quarians that had huge populations that would be hard to relocate to Rannoch.  You find me a bunch of mining planets with like 5 people on it that they could basically fly to in Apollo 13.  The Quarians don't need the Council as much as you claim because their dextro based life was primarily based on Rannoch.  They killed emerging sentient life to protect a couple of sh*tty planets outside of their immediate system if I believe you.  Boy genocide comes cheap these days for Quarians.

3.  And you ignored the question.  If a racist thinks someone of another race is sub-human and and no better than an animal, what should be their crime for killing it? 

4.  Please get a job writing mass effect 4 and then I will believe your fan fic.  Until then no.

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 09:56 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

Tali is made Admiral post trial when she is no longer "discraced", remember?
And you really think Gerrel is going to come aborard a Cerberus ship that is run by a Cerberus-Shackled A.I. to speak with a geth? Only SHEPARD ever knows about the split. And AGAIN, Shepard's word isn't trustible because of Cerberus standings.
And regarding the Council, if someone knocked on your door and told you a statue told you the world was going to end and everyone was going to be killed by gaint living robot cuttlefish, would YOU believe them at face value? No. You'd brand them a crackpot or a nutcase. Especally if they have absolutly nothing to back up the claim with. So NO, that doesn't weaken my case. If anything, it shows you trust one person on face-value blind faith, then chastize someone else for not doing exactally what the person you trust didn't do.

And the fact you don't care when it's the same thing proves alot. Namely that you are prejudiced against organic problems. Headcannon yourself all you want, you can't ignore the geth were the orcistrators of their fate just as much as the quarians were.

And AGAIN, it's what's considered mechs over the futrue of 2.1 billion. And for a race that is likely dead anyway, and assumed to be rebuildible.

And again, you're prejudice. Getting apathy from you is like getting water from a stone. No one could cope with the shock of someone so close to them betraying them like that. Especally not someone as sensitive as Tali. It would devestate her just by the thought of it.

So they can't talk via vid comm.  Legion can't go to the Flotilla like he did during the loyalty mission.  There is not a single place in the entire universe that he can meet with Legion.  Give me a f**king break.  You are just making excuses.  Tali is made Admiral before the war.  So guess what before the war, she can tell them about the Geth. 

If that person just saved the Citadel and was a Spectre then yes I would listen and investigate.  That is kind of why I made him Spectre.  In a world where talking statues can exist otherwise their wouldn't be laws banning their existence then yes I would.

Yes the Geth asked to be created, asked the quarians to f**k up and make them sentient, and try to slaugher them for a few sh*tty mining planets.  Like I said Amoral bastards.

Yes Tali can cope enough to say Stand Down but not enough to say Stand down, the geth have reaper code. 

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 09:57 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

S.A.K wrote...

You guys taking this say too serious.

This thread actually makes the Debate that has been raging since ME1 serious. I believe for the first time in almost 6yrs we are having a real grown up debate on what the Geth deserve, and why they deserve it.

Question everything.

[BronzTrooper]

I'd go with the Quarians. I'm no going to kill an organic race for a bunch of robots. Plus, they can always be rebuilt, but to a lesser extent. Also, I would never betray Tali... Never.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
I have acknowledged many times the Quarians who fought to protect the Geth.  Don't forget the Geth also sought to protect those Quarians and died doing so.  So we know their disdain for organics was learned.  They did not start out that way.  They started out valuing their creators and their creators through their actions taught them to fear them and by extension all organics.

I don't value isolation when I refuse to hang around people who I think want to kill me.  I value my life and thus choose isolation out of fear not because I value it.  And no, the Geth should not expect help from organics and organics should not expect help from the Geth.

I find no evidence that the geth's desire to form a giant consensus and be one with the entirety of their race was a reaction to organic racism. If anything you are trivializing this goal by saying so. To me, the geth don't care about anything but the advancement of their own race.

The issue is what a noble hero like Shepard should do?  Shepard shouldn't side with the Geth because he owes the Geth anything nor should they expect him to side with them.  The same is true of the Quarians.  Shepard should side with whomever his innate sense of justice and fairness dictates is the wronged party.

Both parties are in the wrong, so a noble Shepard bent on doing the right thing wouldn't choose a side. At this point it is irrelevant that the quarians started the Morning War. I don't destroy the geth for the Morning War, I destroy them because 1. I have to destroy them or the quarians and 2. The geth made a choice that Legion acknowledges is completely stupid in becoming Reaper slaves to "save themselves."

Additionally, the geth in their entirety are responsible for that choice, whereas the quarian race is a case of a few bad apples trying to spoil the entire harvest. I won't kill all of the quarians who are truly innocent just because some of their ancestors became scared and tried to destroy the geth, or because a few of their admirals are bat****.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 03:01 .

[Phatose]

Well, for me the entirety of the Quarian race is responsible for their mistakes. They did put those admirals in charge, after all.

By my personal Ethics, the Quarians, as the aggressors, are necessarily held to a higher ethical standard then the Geth. Both make extremely poor decisions. The Geth make extremely poor decisions when facing active extermination. The Quarians make extremely poor decisions under no such duress.

Then I look back over what I know of these two...and every time the two are in a conflict, it's been initiated by the Quarians. 100% of the time. Whether it's the Morning War, or the current War, or the attack on Haestrom, or the torture chamber on the Alarei, or Tali pulling a gun on Legion.

Their whole history really is them trying to destroy the Geth. With a track record like that, the decision is fairly straightforward. I find considerable fault in the Geth's joining up with an aggressive genocide species, but I find greater fault in the Quarian's being an aggressive genocidal species.

Modifié par Phatose, 21 mars 2013 - 03:36 .

[CronoDragoon]

Phatose wrote...

Well, for me the entirety of the Quarian race is responsible for their mistakes. They did put those admirals in charge, after all.

Did they? Amazing that two year old quarians vote for admirals. Also amazing that you assume all the votes were unanimous. I know I'd sure hate to be held responsible for the decisions of presidents for which I didn't vote.

By my personal Ethics, the Quarians, as the aggressors, are necessarily held to a higher ethical standard then the Geth. Both make extremely poor decisions. The Geth make extremely poor decisions when facing active extermination. The Quarians make extremely poor decisions under no such duress.

Then I look back over what I know of these two...and every time the two are in a conflict, it's been initiated by the Quarians. 100% of the time. Whether it's the Morning War, or the current War, or the attack on Haestrom, or the torture chamber on the Alarei, or Tali pulling a gun on Legion.

Haestrom wasn't an "attack". It was a recon mission and the geth attacked them. Also, are you really trying to claim that Tali pulled a gun of Legion unprovoked?

Their whole history really is them trying to destroy the Geth. With a track record like that, the decision is fairly straightforward. I find considerable fault in the Geth's joining up with an aggressive genocide species, but I find greater fault in the Quarian's being an aggressive genocidal species.

The geth didn't have to kill billions of quarians in the Morning War, but they did. They only spared the remaining quarians because they didn't have enough processing power to form a conclusive consensus on the repercussions of exterminating them, not through mercy or pity. I don't find any reason to assume that the geth have a higher moral quality than the quarians.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[Phatose]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Did they? Amazing that two year old quarians vote for admirals. Also amazing that you assume all the votes were unanimous. I know I'd sure hate to be held responsible for the decisions of presidents for which I didn't vote.

Remember Legion on the Heretic Base?  There's an undertow assumption being made constantly that the Geth consensus means every last Geth agree with the decision - and we can actually see right there, it does not work that way.  Yet, no one protests blaming the Geth who didn't vote to join the Reapers for going along with that collective decision.

I'm applying the same standard to the Quarians. 

Haestrom wasn't an "attack". It was a recon mission and the geth attacked them. Also, are you really trying to claim that Tali pulled a gun of Legion unprovoked?

You show up uninvited, armed on another Species planet and shooting ensues, it's an attack.  If the US air dropped a team of commandos into a Russian military base, then claimed when the shooting started it was "recon", everyone would call BS.  Which is exactly what I'm doing.

And yes, Tali pulled a gun on Legion unprovoked.  Legion sending that message was totally justified - "You can be damn sure if he was doing that to human I'd have told the alliance".  Furthermore, as Shep points out if you actually do side with Legion, Tali was happy to send back information on the Geth Heretic base.

There is no justice in her actions.  She's just hiding her father's crimes  through threats of violence.  Reporting those back isn't provocation, it's justice.

The geth didn't have to kill billions of quarians in the Morning War, but they did. They only spared the remaining quarians because they didn't have enough processing power to form a conclusive consensus on the repercussions of exterminating them, not through mercy or pity. I don't find any reason to assume that the geth have a higher moral quality than the quarians.

Oh yes, they did.  And the Quarians killed millions of Geth in the Morning War.  And in the current war.  They're on equal footing there.  Except for the whole "Quarians started the war" thing.  So, Quarians have one atrocity more on record then the Geth do. 

Modifié par Phatose, 21 mars 2013 - 06:02 .

[remydat]

Let me take a step back and explain my morality.

1. I believe in live and let live. By that I mean people have a right to live their lives how they see fit and if I disagree with their lifestyle or their own personal morality then as long as it doesn't restrict my life or the life of others then to each his own.

2. Flowing from 1 above, that means there are always morally grey areas to navigate and I respect the right of an objective person (this term will be key later) arriving at a different conclusion that me regarding a morally grey area.

3. How I decide morally grey areas is as follows. If someone has nothing to gain from making a morally grey decision and have no prejudices regarding it they are objective. I tend to question their decisions less even if I disagree with them because I believe that decision was free from bias.

4. If someone has a dog in the fight (ie a benefit or gain) then I am immediately suspicious. If they then always make the decision that allows them the greatest benefit, I tend to find that amoral.

5. People who lack sufficent knowledge of good vs evil and who legally someone could argue did not have the mental capacity to grasp the full consequences of their actions are not as responsible for their actions as mentally competent people.

Now with that in mind, let's look this debate. We all have some measure of objectivity because we are discussing fictional characters and aside from whatever pride we fell in thinking we won an argument we have nothing to gain in making a call. The only thing I would challenge is we are all organic so I would argue we have a predisposition to want to give other organics the benefit of the doubt. And no, I am not synthetic. With that said, I don't begrude anyone from making a decision different from mine because we really don't have much to gain.

Also understand, I work in a profession where independence is paramount. I can't have bank accounts, buy stock, get a mortgage, life insurance and all manner of other things everyone takes for granted from certain companies because doing so can be construed as imparing my independence which I have to be independent or unbiased in order to do the job I do.

That is why I despise what the Quarians did. It is not only against everything I stand for personally, it is against everything my profession demands of me professionally. The Quarians had a financial interst in deciding that the Geth were not alive. It helped them with the council, it helped them with keeping their cheap labor force enslaved.

So I don't find it moral that they immediately opted for the morally grey option that allowed them to kill the Geth instead of recognizing their own selfish interests and saying wait a minute we need to think this through because we should not make a call when we are potentially biased without ensure we are making the call for the right reasons ie we in our hear of hearts unmotivated by greed, money, fear of punishment, etc. we do believe they deserve to be killed.

I can respectfully disagree and accept anyone else's opinion on this because you are not Quarian, you have no financial gain and even though I may question if some of you are predisposed to the organic side of things because you are organic, it is a fictional story so like I said to each his own. However, I can't in good conscience make the same allowances for the Quarians who I know for a fact were biased and who seem to have made the decision to kill quite quickly and by punishing other Quarians who disagreed it is amoral and there is nothing anyone can do to change my opinion on it.

So you are free to debate me and exchange ideas but don't come at me trying to preach to me or convert to me or tell me I think everything is black and white. I appreciate there is moral grey and tough decision. I don't respect people who always make the choice that benefits them while put others in extreme danger. I saw nothing in the Quarian leadership that suggested they ever did anything but make the decision that best suited their inherent bias. Shepard, Tali and Legion provide them new info on the Geth, well disregard because I want war. Tali and Shepard tell them the threat on the Dreadnought was over, well disregard it and risk killing them because that is the safest option for me. Tali tells Gherel to stand down, well disregard it because I think these Geth are ripe to be killed.

Now as we move to the Geth, item 5 is key for me. They were shown to value their creators above their own lives until their creators killed that natural instinct from them shortly after they became self aware (ie they were mere babies from a self aware and moral perspective). They eventually responded with in a manner that a terrified kid or animal responds ie kill the threat and kill it as completely as possible until the threat was over. Then when faced with the decision of whether to wipe out the Quarians, a decision that I 100% believe Gherel and Quarians of the morning war would have made because it was the safest option, they relented and did not kill them on. That shows their natural desire to save their creators was not completely eradicated and it shows that they when faced with a tough call did not make the call that was most beneficial to them.

Now I can go on for pages on this but the point is that is how I view things. You are free to disagree but I can't be argued out of my position with the Quarians because I judge their actions motivated purely by their selfish interests. The Geth had the ability to value their creators above their own lives and the ability to operate on a kill or be killed ideal. The Quarians killed the former instinct out of them almost entirely and reinforced the latter by trying to exterminate them and because they were young sentient machines with exponential processing power that kill or be killed extinct hammered into them by Quarians naturally grew exponentially due to the Quarians. It led to a vicious cycle where they then isolated themselves due to that instinct and by doing that instinct continued to dominate. And despite all of that Legion comes in and once he starts making positive connections with organics the Geth start evolving where that killer instinct starts to recede and is replaced with that program they had in them from the beggining that the Quarians tried to kill out of them with the Reaper code basically accelerating that process.