4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
I have acknowledged many times the Quarians who fought to protect the Geth.  Don't forget the Geth also sought to protect those Quarians and died doing so.  So we know their disdain for organics was learned.  They did not start out that way.  They started out valuing their creators and their creators through their actions taught them to fear them and by extension all organics.

I don't value isolation when I refuse to hang around people who I think want to kill me.  I value my life and thus choose isolation out of fear not because I value it.  And no, the Geth should not expect help from organics and organics should not expect help from the Geth.

I find no evidence that the geth's desire to form a giant consensus and be one with the entirety of their race was a reaction to organic racism. If anything you are trivializing this goal by saying so. To me, the geth don't care about anything but the advancement of their own race.

The issue is what a noble hero like Shepard should do?  Shepard shouldn't side with the Geth because he owes the Geth anything nor should they expect him to side with them.  The same is true of the Quarians.  Shepard should side with whomever his innate sense of justice and fairness dictates is the wronged party.

Both parties are in the wrong, so a noble Shepard bent on doing the right thing wouldn't choose a side. At this point it is irrelevant that the quarians started the Morning War. I don't destroy the geth for the Morning War, I destroy them because 1. I have to destroy them or the quarians and 2. The geth made a choice that Legion acknowledges is completely stupid in becoming Reaper slaves to "save themselves."

Additionally, the geth in their entirety are responsible for that choice, whereas the quarian race is a case of a few bad apples trying to spoil the entire harvest. I won't kill all of the quarians who are truly innocent just because some of their ancestors became scared and tried to destroy the geth, or because a few of their admirals are bat****.

See my post about my morality.  That Geth desire is born from the genocide the Quarians tried to vist upon them.  They develop a collective fear of organics and because they were just recently born and synthetic that collective fear grew exponentially and become the overriding program.  When humans feel safe we explore our individuality when we feel threatened we form groups and are more willing to let things slide that we wouldn't when we feel safe.  Witness pre and post 9-11.  Pre 9-11 there are liberties no one felt should be given up by an individual for the sake of the collective.  Post 9-11 various laws were passed that people accepted to take those individual liberties away because they were scared.  Now imagine being in a perpetual state of fear and having the processing power to grow that perpetual state of dear exponentially.  The natural response is to isolate yourself which is evidenced by all the Americans who were like let's get out of all these other countries, close are borders and worry about our own post 9-11.  And that is without the processing power of a machine that they turned on a dime post 9-11.

The above also explains them accepting the Reaper Code.  Again, they are in a perpetual state of survival instinct due to the Quarians.  The Quarians attack and nearly wipe them out and left with no other alternative they turn to the Reapers.  Once again, they make an arguable bad decision not because they want to but because the Quarians yet again force them into a corner.  So I don't kill the Quarians for the MW.  I kill the Quarians because during the MW they made a mistake and then make a morally grey decison that results in another person having to pay for it.  300 years later, they are in a tight spoke and make a morally grey decision that results in another person having to pay for it.  They have learned nothing in 300 years and continue to try and force the Geth to pay for their own problems.  The Geth's two big mistakes are the direct result of the Quarians trying to make the Geth pay for the Quarians own problems.  So why should I let the Quarians off the hook for that?  This is especially true when there is every evidence that post Legion the Quarians could have engaged the Geth in decision.  They simply choose to not want to believe Tali, Shepard, and Legion and take a chance.  Legion stepping out of the veil was the Geth taking a chance.  Show me where the current Quarian leadership ever took a similar chance?

[silverexile17s]

andy69156915 wrote...

@silverexile17s

You've been kicking ass in this debate... Buuuuut.... I do have to argue something you've said. Don't know about your games, but in mine Legion comes with me to Tali's loyalty mission. A Geth peacefully walks around their live ship, not hurting anyone and even outright CONVERSES with Xen and Koris and makes it clear it's a true Geth and not just a simple mech with a Geth chasis. Shepard has a dialogue option to tell EVERY SINGLE admiral that about the Geth schism and hear their responses about it.

And yes you can pull that off without losing any crew. You just need to save Tali and Legion's LMs for last and do them back-to-back. I've done it on several playthroughs.

Here's a video of someone bringing Legion-



There's several more parts after that from the same Youtube user showing the entire LM.

I know, but since the source is a supposedly dead-for two-years human piloting a Cerberus ship (a faction that assaulted them and killed some of their people), who's information source is a geth, (who attacked the Citadel and nearly brought about the genocide of the galaxy) and who both came at the behest of a quarian that's being tried for brining active geth into the fleet.... well, put all that together, and do you really think that they can take the information on face-value?
Hell, even Anderson doesn't take Shepard's word at face-value for fear of the Illusive Man feeding him false info. It makes sence that the Admirals wouldn't trust Shepard for fear of Legion (And Cerberus too) doing the same. And since the only geth ever encountered by the wider galaxy were Heretics, no one has any way to prove what Legion says is true or false. Therefore, the Admirals have to use what they know. Which is that Cerberus attacked them, and that thousands died when geth attacked the Citadel.
Put those things together with the fact that there are geth loose in the fleet at the time, and there really is no reason for Gerrel, Raan, or Xen to believe a word of what Shepard said. They can consider and listen to the iedas, but don't take it seriously given the possibily biased source. Only Koris takes the offer seriously.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mars 2013 - 06:39 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

@silverexile17s

You've been kicking ass in this debate... Buuuuut.... I do have to argue something you've said. Don't know about your games, but in mine Legion comes with me to Tali's loyalty mission. A Geth peacefully walks around their live ship, not hurting anyone and even outright CONVERSES with Xen and Koris and makes it clear it's a true Geth and not just a simple mech with a Geth chasis. Shepard has a dialogue option to tell EVERY SINGLE admiral that about the Geth schism and hear their responses about it.

And yes you can pull that off without losing any crew. You just need to save Tali and Legion's LMs for last and do them back-to-back. I've done it on several playthroughs.

Here's a video of someone bringing Legion-



There's several more parts after that from the same Youtube user showing the entire LM.

I know, but since the source is a supposedly dead-for two-years human piloting a Cerberus ship (a faction that assaulted them and killed some of their people), who's information source is a geth, (who attacked the Citadel and nearly brought about the genocide of the galaxy) and who both came at the behest of a quarian that's being tried for brining active geth into the fleet.... well, put all that together, and do you really think that they can take the information on face-value?
Hell, even Anderson doesn't take Shepard's word at face-value for fear of the Illusive Man feeding him false info. It makes sence that the Admirals wouldn't trust Shepard for fear of Legion (And Cerberus too) doing the same. And since the only geth ever encountered by the wider galaxy were Heretics, no one has any way to prove what Legion says is true or false. Therefore, the Admirals have to use what they know. Which is that Cerberus attacked them, and that thousands died when geth attacked the Citadel.
Put those things together with the fact that there are geth loose in the fleet at the time, and there really is no reason for Gerrel, Raan, or Xen to believe a word of what Shepard said. They can consider and listen to the iedas, but don't take it seriously given the possibily biased source. Only Koris takes the offer seriously.

Do you undestand the difference between being sceptical which is fine and being sceptical and then launching straight into war?

There is no comparison.  Did Anderson shoot Shepard in the head because he was sceptical or did he get over it?  Hell Ash and Kaiden are sceptical but guess what their scepticism and unwillingness to be open to trusting me potentially ends with a bulllet to their head as it should.  

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 06:48 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
 I don't respect people who always make the choice that benefits them while put others in extreme danger.

You understand this is the core of my argument for destroying the geth, though? Neither the quarians nor the geth made decisions facilitative to peace or protecting others.

Now as we move to the Geth, item 5 is key for me. They were shown to value their creators above their own lives until their creators killed that natural instinct from them shortly after they became self aware (ie they were mere babies from a self aware and moral perspective). They eventually responded with in a manner that a terrified kid or animal responds ie kill the threat and kill it as completely as possible until the threat was over. Then when faced with the decision of whether to wipe out the Quarians, a decision that I 100% believe Gherel and Quarians of the morning war would have made because it was the safest option, they relented and did not kill them on. That shows their natural desire to save their creators was not completely eradicated and it shows that they when faced with a tough call did not make the call that was most beneficial to them.

Not to me, it doesn't Legion never says this is why he spares the remaining handful of quarians; he said they couldn't predict the result that their actions would have if they killed the rest of the quarians. You can interpret that many ways but valuing the creators is a stretch to me.

The Geth had the ability to value their creators above their own lives and the ability to operate on a kill or be killed ideal. The Quarians killed the former instinct out of them almost entirely and reinforced the latter by trying to exterminate them and because they were young sentient machines with exponential processing power that kill or be killed extinct hammered into them by Quarians naturally grew exponentially due to the Quarians. It led to a vicious cycle where they then isolated themselves due to that instinct and by doing that instinct continued to dominate. And despite all of that Legion comes in and once he starts making positive connections with organics the Geth start evolving where that killer instinct starts to recede and is replaced with that program they had in them from the beggining that the Quarians tried to kill out of them with the Reaper code basically accelerating that process.

While your interpretation doesn't contradict in-game events, I find it underwhelmingly unsupported. I find no reason to believe the geth chose to isolate themselves as a race because of quarian attacks. Legion never says this. Moreover, my interpretation that this is what they always wanted post-MW is supported by the endings, which posit that synthetics fundamentally strive for perfect understanding.

The geth could have simply left Rannoch but did not. While they are not morally obligated to do so, choosing to remain on a conquered home planet that the previous race obviously wants to retake is quite simply asking for another war. The geth have no more right to Rannoch than the quarians would retaking it from them.

I also find it curious that you are so quick to point out organic bias when the in-game accounts support a view opposite yours, while basing quite a bit of your rhetoric on the geth consensus mission which takes place inside a synthetic geth consensus.

If you want to paint the geth as wanting peace in any shape or form, then you'll have to deal with the fact that they cut off any communications with organics and shot down any diplomatic ships entering the system. You've attempted to undermine this by pointing out that organics claim this while failing to similarly discount information gleaned from the geth consensus.

In the end, the issue is that each game paints a different portrait of the quarian/geth conflict. In ME1, the geth were demonized. In ME2, the representations of the geth and quarians are pretty well balanced, especially concerning the quarian admiralty board, in which no two admirals wanted the same thing. In ME3, the geth are angelicized and the game tries to disregard any wrongdoing on their part, while trying to convince you the quarians are hot-headed agressors. I don't buy it, and it smells like revisionist history to me. In the end, no consistent picture of the geth is possible across the series.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 21 mars 2013 - 07:25 .

[Iamjdr]

They didn't launch straight into war tho. Yes the quarians did attack the geth but plenty of time had passed for the Geth to initiate peace talks with the quarians Between me2 and 3. If the Geth truly only wanted peace then why didnt they reach out to the quarians after it was proven to legion by being on the Normandy and meeting tali that there can be peace between synthetics and organics.friendship even. Peace Can never achieved by isolating yourself for hundreds of years and only repaying organic attempts to be peaceful with violence and allowing factions on your people run rampant on the galaxy at large in attempts to allow giant metal overlords to harvest organic life . And when taking legion to tali LM. Did they murder legion For being a machine? No they let him walk around the freaking flotilla and tell everyone about the Geth split. Doesn't sound like the galaxy wide prejudice for synthetics you were trying to imply. And it deffinatly Sounds like enough for the Geth to atleast open a dialogue with the quarians but do they? No they decide to do nothing again until the reapers invade a second time and the quarians are actually desperate enough to try taking rannoch back by force. And then in the end the ONLY way the Geth are willing to accept peace is if you allow them to use the reaper upgrades. You can't make peice and not give them the upgrades. All the quarians want is there home back so they can join the rest of the galaxy in the fight with the reapers. they don't care if they have to share rannoch and they don't really care if the Geth think they are Alive or not, cause they won't let them go back to there homeworld either way. but the Geth couldn't care less what happens to the galaxy as long as they get what they want. Remember the rachni were most defiantly alive when the galaxy encountered them. But they were exterminated non the less because they were dangerous to the galaxy. What is the difference in situation here? The Geth had 300 hundred years to prove they were not a threat to the galaxy and have instead done everything in there power to confirm the galaxies belief that the Geth are just murderous robots.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No. Again, YOU fail to understand.
Javik has zero reason to lie at this point and is never sugar-coats anything. Just at the quarian's were striaght about them starting the Morning War, Javik is straight about the synthetcis starting the Metacon War. Simple as that.

And I aslo remind you that there is nothing that anyone says that contridicts what the Catalyst says. Does that make what it does right?
And like I JUST said, what you shoud doubt about them, is the fact that Legion straight-up admits he has full control of how you percieve the information, like how he uses suited quarians as placeholders in the images insetad of showing how they really looked. And that the server he's on is overrun by Heretics and Reaper code. AND how Legion's entire premise for bringing you here is to use you as a decoy so that it can get the geth out of that server.

Heastrom. Adas. Kaddi. Ket'osh. Uriyah. These are all quarian worlds, as well as every system the geth took. And according to Gerrel, the geth had at least more then four systems they went through to get to Rannoch, not including Rannoch's own system. So there were at least seven systems the quarians owned.  THAT'S your proof.
And as stated repeatedly, the geth took every single world the quarians owned. And for 300 years, the quarians did nothing BUT look for a new world.
But they need a world that's (a) dextro-based, ( in the "shirt-sleeves" habital temperature zone, © has oxygen-based air, (d) has air particals that don't kill when the breathe it in, (e) has food sources that don't need to be reduced to sterilized paste to eat. (f) has tolirable gravity levels, (g) has clean water composition, and (h) has Rannoch's same insect-free symbiotic ecology that they are physologicly require to restore their immune systems.
How many worlds like THAT do you think there are? Any worlds they terraformed using plants exported from Rannoch are under geth control. Any other habitable dextro worlds that even come CLOSE are all turian settled. They eventually tried settling world that WOULDN'T be very hospitible to them, like the high-gravity world of Ekuna. They settled, the patitoned the Coincil for rights, who in turn demanded the world be turned over to them or they would send dreadnoughts to bomb any quarians that weren't off the planet in a day. So NO, it WASN'T that simple. They weren't space refugees by CHOICE.

You are the one that would sacrifice the welfare of 2.1 billion people for what everyone assumed were no better then husks. They didn't believe the geth were alive, or that they were destorying anything that couldn't be replicated. You trash the quarians for acting desperate and doing what they needed to for the sake of preserving the culture. You support the geth doing the exact same thing by siding with the Reapers, yet chastize the quarians for it?
The correct responce is that you don't get to tell anyone about moral and amoral when you have such nieve viewpoints about right and wrong, and thinking that everything is going to conform to yoiur strict sence of right and wrong. Everything is black and white to you, and you never bother to look at the gray. and you do it all from prejudiced viewpoints. You support the geth doing what they did in desperation to preserve their culture, yet chastize the quarians for doing the same. The quarians did it at the geth's expence, and you hate them. The geth did it at the galaxy's expence, and you endorce them.
See the flaws? So again, don't act like you have the right to lecture anyone when you never bother to look at it from anyone elses viewpoint.

1.  Please direct me to where I can her Javik say synthetics STARTED war.  He said they TURNED which we know does not mean definitively that they started it.

2.  Rannoch, Adas, and Uriyah are all in the same system.  That is like Mercury, Venus and Earth.  None of those require trade with anyone or travel on Mass Relays.  Adas was a mining planet with a small population.  They could easily return to Rannoch and live.  Uriyah als mining with no population to speak of.  Haestrom was used strictly as observation planet so again no population to speak of.  The Far Rim which is right by the Veil.  Perhaps you missed the point I was making.  The other races have colonies spread far across the galaxy and requrie relays to get there.  They have huge populations on those planets.  I asked you to find me a planet owned by the Quarians that had huge populations that would be hard to relocate to Rannoch.  You find me a bunch of mining planets with like 5 people on it that they could basically fly to in Apollo 13.  The Quarians don't need the Council as much as you claim because their dextro based life was primarily based on Rannoch.  They killed emerging sentient life to protect a couple of sh*tty planets outside of their immediate system if I believe you.  Boy genocide comes cheap these days for Quarians.

3.  And you ignored the question.  If a racist thinks someone of another race is sub-human and and no better than an animal, what should be their crime for killing it? 

4.  Please get a job writing mass effect 4 and then I will believe your fan fic.  Until then no.

1. www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKafW50ADew
Go to 12:15 and play from there:
"Very early, we encountered the dangers posed by machine intelligences. They rebelled against us."
Not the underlined: Rebelled. 
Then he says they resolved to unite all races in their empire to stop them, becoming the Metacon War.

2. They are still quarian worlds. You asked for quarian worlds, and I gave them. And also, they were still attacked by the geth despite being small mining worlds with no military presance what-so-ever.
And the rather large city ruins and number of buildings on Haestrom seem to invalidate that claim of yours, because that was alot of buildings for "no real population," now wasn't it?
I think YOU missed the point. The quarians had more then just Rannoch, and at least four other systems that are never shown. Also, the quarian race of 17 million is referred to as spicifically being  less then 1% of the quarian race. 0.7% of the race to be more accurate. The original race would have numbered at least 2 billion lives. And the quarians were spread over at least five systems, since Tali exposits in ME1 that the quarians once had several star systems and worlds.
I also remind you that we never see any hanar worlds, or even Kahje, their homeworld. yet we know they exist. And what about the turians? For all their size, we only see, what, 5 worlds they own? (Invictus, Gellix, Altakiril, Digeris, Xerceo). I doubt their population is limited to that, especally when there are supposedly dozens more colonies never showen (remember the "Turian Insigna" fetch-quest in ME1? Every one is for a turian colony.) So again, you are making assumptions. Seeing is believeing to the point of being the only truth to you.
And again, WRONG. The only dextro-life planet was Rannoch. They imported plants from Rannoch for other worlds, but because Rannoch's ecology is small, there isn't enough to seed multiple planets at a time. Hence they need dextro imports from the turians to expidite the process and continue supporting a growing infrastructure. They're economy is small, so the advancement was slow, hence why they only had a reletivesly small teretory of five systems or so, compaired to the 20 or so owned by humans alone, which supposedly equals the other Council races. So no, the quarians are small fish compaired to them, and NEED those trade relations to continue expansing into the modern galaxy.
And they were all at risk because of the geth. It was either them, or the future of their sociaty. Literally a kill or be killed situation. And the geth were nither considered to be alive, or likely to survive the Council reprasial if discovered, so they were figured to be a lost cause no matter what was chosen. There literally was no real choice but the course they took, if they wanted their culture to continue.

3. That is totally dependant on the government doing the judging. For example, in China, pets are not only considered sub-human, but are considered alternate food sources. And therefore, completely legal to consider as sub-human with no rights.
And if you are looking for an in-game example, look at the Batarians. Slavery is completely legal and scanctioned by them, to the point where killing them just because you feel like it is completely legal.
You act like the rights you have are shared and endorsed by every living being. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone sees it that way. One man's good deed is another man's felon. Something that you would be tried and incarcerated for doing in one government will be rewarded with a pat on the back by another.
It's like Frankenstien deciding to kill the being he created. He doesn't see it as a living being, but as something that mimincs life, and that if it isn't stopped, everyone is going to suffer.
The quarians are like that. The beings they created, they have no idea if the really are alive, but know that their continued existance will bring ruination on them. Either by their hand or the Council, the geth are escentally considered doomed regardless of the choice. So they might as well pick the choice that dooms the geth, instead of the choice that dooms the geth AND the quarians.

4. You have provided NOTHING that proves it as untrue. If anything, you are letting your headcannon cloud your perception. And you didn't deny my assertation, did you?

And because you are going to try and use it against me, I'll list the stated 20 human systems here, plus four extra for good measure:
Boltzman system (Bekenstien)
Eular system (Benning)
Amun system (Anhur, shared with indipendent batarians)
Vetus system (Elysium)
Irea system (Horizon)
Theseus system (Feros)
Skepsis system (Watson & Franklin)
Enoch system (Joab)
Asguard system (Terra Nova, Loki, Tyr, Borr)
Utopia system (Eden Prime)
Decoris system (Sanctum)
Pheniox system (Intai'sei & Pinnicle Station. System shared with turians)
Athens system (Proteus. Recent colony)
Then there are the worlds that are in systems not yet named:
Akuze
Amaterasu (listed home of Ashley Williams' family before 2183)
Shanxi
Czarnobóg (Alliance supply depot world)
Mindoir
Demeter
Ferris Fields  (defunct: 2185)
Fehl Prime (defunct: 2185)
New Canton (defunct: 2185)
Freedom's Progress (defunct: 2185)

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

@silverexile17s

You've been kicking ass in this debate... Buuuuut.... I do have to argue something you've said. Don't know about your games, but in mine Legion comes with me to Tali's loyalty mission. A Geth peacefully walks around their live ship, not hurting anyone and even outright CONVERSES with Xen and Koris and makes it clear it's a true Geth and not just a simple mech with a Geth chasis. Shepard has a dialogue option to tell EVERY SINGLE admiral that about the Geth schism and hear their responses about it.

And yes you can pull that off without losing any crew. You just need to save Tali and Legion's LMs for last and do them back-to-back. I've done it on several playthroughs.

Here's a video of someone bringing Legion-



There's several more parts after that from the same Youtube user showing the entire LM.

I know, but since the source is a supposedly dead-for two-years human piloting a Cerberus ship (a faction that assaulted them and killed some of their people), who's information source is a geth, (who attacked the Citadel and nearly brought about the genocide of the galaxy) and who both came at the behest of a quarian that's being tried for brining active geth into the fleet.... well, put all that together, and do you really think that they can take the information on face-value?
Hell, even Anderson doesn't take Shepard's word at face-value for fear of the Illusive Man feeding him false info. It makes sence that the Admirals wouldn't trust Shepard for fear of Legion (And Cerberus too) doing the same. And since the only geth ever encountered by the wider galaxy were Heretics, no one has any way to prove what Legion says is true or false. Therefore, the Admirals have to use what they know. Which is that Cerberus attacked them, and that thousands died when geth attacked the Citadel.
Put those things together with the fact that there are geth loose in the fleet at the time, and there really is no reason for Gerrel, Raan, or Xen to believe a word of what Shepard said. They can consider and listen to the iedas, but don't take it seriously given the possibily biased source. Only Koris takes the offer seriously.

Do you undestand the difference between being sceptical which is fine and being sceptical and then launching straight into war?

There is no comparison.  Did Anderson shoot Shepard in the head because he was sceptical or did he get over it?  Hell Ash and Kaiden are sceptical but guess what their scepticism and unwillingness to be open to trusting me potentially ends with a bulllet to their head as it should.  

Thousands of geth attacked the Citadel, killed thousands of people, and sided with a race of beings that want to harvest everything in the galaxy. After all that, coupled with the fact that the Heretics are STILL attacking organics to that very day, you expect the word of ONE geth, on a CERBERUS ship, with a quarian that is being tried for bringing OTHER GETH into the fleet, is going to be taken without sceptisim? And you say that *I*  don't know the difference?

And I remind you that Gerrel didn't shoot you when you met him. He was quite cordial and civil. And if you are talking about that Geth Dreadnought, AGAIN: 17 million lives constituting an entire race, vs three people. It shouldn't be that hard a choice to make or reason with.
And as I recall, Kaiden DID own up to his mistake. Ashley was the one that danced around the issue, but Kaiden openly admits he effed up by not trusting Shepard.
And to be fair, Cerberus is attacking at the same time you happen to be there? With you drawing on the Council? It doesn't look good, especally if Kai Leng got a doctored recording that makes it look like the salarian councilor was killed by you.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And WRONG. It's trading possible genocide for surefire genocide. But again, they didn't see the geth as alive, so they figured that they weren't destroying anything they couldn't rebuild. That changed after the geth retaliated.

Well, genocide is certainly what they got.

You don't get it man.  You committ surefire genocide when told of a harmless synthetic race.  You let things fester when that harmless genetic race is driven by their creators to kill a billion of them.

This is like the best policing system ever.  Just avoid the council prior to killing someone but then kill a sh*t load of people and the council will leave you alone.

Council Official - Apprehend that completely innocent person who has committed no crime.

Innocent person (runs off kills some people returns soaked in blood) - Sorry I already killed all those people over there.

Council Official - D**mnit, was too late again, ok chief just go over there where I can't see you.

That's what the quarians were hoping would happen to them. They hoped that since the geth would die anyway when the Council discovered them, that they could wipe them out before anyone noticed the geth had signs of developing sentiance.
And again, no one knew the geth were sapiant. Killing them was seen as no more genocide then unplugging a thousand AVINA V.I.s, or killing a thousand LOKI mechs.
And that perception changed when the geth launched coordinated and swift retalitory strikes.

[Iamjdr]

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

Tali is made Admiral post trial when she is no longer "discraced", remember?
And you really think Gerrel is going to come aborard a Cerberus ship that is run by a Cerberus-Shackled A.I. to speak with a geth? Only SHEPARD ever knows about the split. And AGAIN, Shepard's word isn't trustible because of Cerberus standings.
And regarding the Council, if someone knocked on your door and told you a statue told you the world was going to end and everyone was going to be killed by gaint living robot cuttlefish, would YOU believe them at face value? No. You'd brand them a crackpot or a nutcase. Especally if they have absolutly nothing to back up the claim with. So NO, that doesn't weaken my case. If anything, it shows you trust one person on face-value blind faith, then chastize someone else for not doing exactally what the person you trust didn't do.

And the fact you don't care when it's the same thing proves alot. Namely that you are prejudiced against organic problems. Headcannon yourself all you want, you can't ignore the geth were the orcistrators of their fate just as much as the quarians were.

And AGAIN, it's what's considered mechs over the futrue of 2.1 billion. And for a race that is likely dead anyway, and assumed to be rebuildible.

And again, you're prejudice. Getting apathy from you is like getting water from a stone. No one could cope with the shock of someone so close to them betraying them like that. Especally not someone as sensitive as Tali. It would devestate her just by the thought of it.

So they can't talk via vid comm.  Legion can't go to the Flotilla like he did during the loyalty mission.  There is not a single place in the entire universe that he can meet with Legion.  Give me a f**king break.  You are just making excuses.  Tali is made Admiral before the war.  So guess what before the war, she can tell them about the Geth. 

If that person just saved the Citadel and was a Spectre then yes I would listen and investigate.  That is kind of why I made him Spectre.  In a world where talking statues can exist otherwise their wouldn't be laws banning their existence then yes I would.

Yes the Geth asked to be created, asked the quarians to f**k up and make them sentient, and try to slaugher them for a few sh*tty mining planets.  Like I said Amoral bastards.

Yes Tali can cope enough to say Stand Down but not enough to say Stand down, the geth have reaper code. 

MEETING Legion isn't the probem. Finding anything that cooberates anything he says IS. It doesn't MATTER where they talk, there STILL isn't going to be any physical proof that shows Legion is sincere. Just words. Just look at the galaxy. Even by ME2, the Heretcis are stil active and launching attackes (N7 Mission: Crashing Ship and N7 Mission: Geth Weather Machine. Not to mention the Firewalker mission packs)
And for the record, as I said BEFORE in this thread, Legion and Tali maintained communication and DID remotely present the
option to the Admirals AFTER the suicide mission.
But nothing came of it. Gerrel still had absoultly no reason to trust a word Legion said as being true. Xen didn't even see Legion as alive, bartering for the sake of fullfiling it's self-preservation programming. Raan didn't see any way the geth and quairans could co-habitate peacefully with all the bad blood between the two factions. Only Koris and Tali believed that Legion was sincire.
However, before anything else could be argued, Legion cut contact, and returned to geth space. The matter was never brought up again because Legion never responded to Tali's attemps to resablish contact.

And being a Spectre doen't mean squat when you are working for a listed enemy of the Council. One that persoally attacked the quarian people (Mass Effect: Ascension) and caused Rachni outbreaks in several systems. AND Shepard has been dead for two years. We already saw that cloning exists in Mass Effect, so how is anyone to know this is the real, original Shepard? Kaiden/Ashley didn't trust you. Hell, even Anderson doesn't trust you. Tali will tell you that half of the people Shepard knows would shoot him on sight to learn of Cerberus, Spectre status be damned. Also, the many criminals, (Kasumi, Jack, Thane,) unaffliliated rouges (Garrus, Zaeed, Samara, Mordin) wanted terrorest cell members (Jacob, Miranda), and exiled/non-council race members (Grunt, Tali, Legion) that Shepard travles with now make the word of the Commander even more suspect. Then there is the Alpha Relay, blown up because of what the galaxy considers an uncornfirmed myth, and sending the Alliance on the verge of war with the Batarians, making Shepard go from crackpot to lunitic in the eyes of the galaxy.
So no, literally no one is willing to back Shepard's word on blind faith right now. Only Anderson backs him/her, after he gets solid proof on Horizon (the collector bodies Shepard left in his/her wake) that Shepard was right about the Collectors.

And AGAIN: DEAD ANYWAY REMEMBER? The ship is basically sinking, so why go down with it? The quarians figured that even if the WERE sapiant (which STILL no one believed yet), that the Council was going to kill them anyway. They figured the geth were BEYOND saving, but the rest of quarian sociaty ISN'T. Does the term "It's time to turn our attention to those we can still save" ring any bells here?
It WASN'T being amoral. They simply gave up on saving the geth being phesible, since if they didn't kill them, the Council would have done it themselves. So STOP with your condesending BS. It's no more amoral then Shepard writing off 300,000 batartans to stall the Reapers.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mars 2013 - 08:34 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
 I don't respect people who always make the choice that benefits them while put others in extreme danger.

You understand this is the core of my argument for destroying the geth, though? Neither the quarians nor the geth made decisions facilitative to peace or protecting others.

Now as we move to the Geth, item 5 is key for me. They were shown to value their creators above their own lives until their creators killed that natural instinct from them shortly after they became self aware (ie they were mere babies from a self aware and moral perspective). They eventually responded with in a manner that a terrified kid or animal responds ie kill the threat and kill it as completely as possible until the threat was over. Then when faced with the decision of whether to wipe out the Quarians, a decision that I 100% believe Gherel and Quarians of the morning war would have made because it was the safest option, they relented and did not kill them on. That shows their natural desire to save their creators was not completely eradicated and it shows that they when faced with a tough call did not make the call that was most beneficial to them.

Not to me, it doesn't Legion never says this is why he spares the remaining handful of quarians; he said they couldn't predict the result that their actions would have if they killed the rest of the quarians. You can interpret that many ways but valuing the creators is a stretch to me.

The Geth had the ability to value their creators above their own lives and the ability to operate on a kill or be killed ideal. The Quarians killed the former instinct out of them almost entirely and reinforced the latter by trying to exterminate them and because they were young sentient machines with exponential processing power that kill or be killed extinct hammered into them by Quarians naturally grew exponentially due to the Quarians. It led to a vicious cycle where they then isolated themselves due to that instinct and by doing that instinct continued to dominate. And despite all of that Legion comes in and once he starts making positive connections with organics the Geth start evolving where that killer instinct starts to recede and is replaced with that program they had in them from the beggining that the Quarians tried to kill out of them with the Reaper code basically accelerating that process.

While your interpretation doesn't contradict in-game events, I find it underwhelmingly unsupported. I find no reason to believe the geth chose to isolate themselves as a race because of quarian attacks. Legion never says this. Moreover, my interpretation that this is what they always wanted post-MW is supported by the endings, which posit that synthetics fundamentally strive for perfect understanding.

The geth could have simply left Rannoch but did not. While they are not morally obligated to do so, choosing to remain on a conquered home planet that the previous race obviously wants to retake is quite simply asking for another war. The geth have no more right to Rannoch than the quarians would retaking it from them.

I also find it curious that you are so quick to point out organic bias when the in-game accounts support a view opposite yours, while basing quite a bit of your rhetoric on the geth consensus mission which takes place inside a synthetic geth consensus.

If you want to paint the geth as wanting peace in any shape or form, then you'll have to deal with the fact that they cut off any communications with organics and shot down any diplomatic ships entering the system. You've attempted to undermine this by pointing out that organics claim this while failing to similarly discount information gleaned from the geth consensus.

In the end, the issue is that each game paints a different portrait of the quarian/geth conflict. In ME1, the geth were demonized. In ME2, the representations of the geth and quarians are pretty well balanced, especially concerning the quarian admiralty board, in which no two admirals wanted the same thing. In ME3, the geth are angelicized and the game tries to disregard any wrongdoing on their part, while trying to convince you the quarians are hot-headed agressors. I don't buy it, and it smells like revisionist history to me. In the end, no consistent picture of the geth is possible across the series.

Legion clearly feels things before he understands what he is feeling.  Legion doesn't know why he carries around that sniper rifle we see in the server that the argricultural unit picked up to defend the rest of weaker units.  He doesn't know why he wears Shepards N7 armor.  He is still a logical entity who feels emotions before he has the capacity to understand what they are.  So when the Geth say they could not predict the consequences of destroying their creators that is a machine with no capacity to truly understand sentiment and emotion experessing sentiment and emotion in the only way it can.

You don't think an organic attempt at Genocide and the council's policy that organics should not exist is reason to isolate yourself?  I am not going out of my way to talk to the KKK and I am not answering the door if they come to my house.  If they show up to my door in an armored car, I am shooting and asking questions later.  If they want to talk peace then publicly on the internet or extranet phone call, tv or any other means of long range communication they can announce their belief I should not exist or am sub human was wrong and that they are deeply sorry.  I have no desire or inclination to deal with them otherwise because I am the wronged party.  I have discussed this point ad naseum.  The Council and Quarians don't get to decide how to approach me.  I do because I was the one an attempt at extermination was made simply because I exist.  I honestly don't understand how people don't get his.  I will not bow down to a prejudiced or racist person or expect any too until that prejudiced or racist person disavows their abhorrent views publicly and hangs their head in shame publicly.  Once you do that then maybe I might talk. 

And the above applies to Rannoch.  No, you don't get your colonies back and a chance to re-populate when I have no assurances you will not simply attack once you feel you are able.  Again, you wronged me.  You come to me with humbled and with apologies then we can discuss things.

Not sure what views you think the game says that are opposite, could you clarify.

And no I never said they wanted peace in any shape or form.  See above.  They are not the ones who need to make peace.  The rest of the Galaxy as represented by the council and Quarians are.  And they need to start it as I described. 

And you don't buy it because of what I said in the other thread.  I view the progression as a literary device.  In literature the evil guys are typically depicted as ugly or foreign.  Then the author explores how our morality is influenced by these ideas by then revealing information that is suppose to make you reconsider your previously held views.  IMO and I freely admit I could be wrong about you, you resist because you were so convinced of their evil that you refuse to reassess.  That is why the conflict centers around the Geth.  Their idea of life is so foreign and so easy to dismiss as not really life that it makes it hard for a lot of people to change their opinions. 

[justafan]

Iamjdr wrote...

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

You do realize that has nothing to do with who they think is at fault and more Bioware wanting a dramatic scene.  I would haxard a guess Tali is the type who would hesitate to kill a friend, and the moment doesn't really lend intself to rational thought.  And Raan could never make up her mind on what to do anyways.  In short, Bioware really wanted to throw Tali off a cliff for drama.  And really, Legion is the dumb one, all he had to do was run away while uploading the code.

[silverexile17s]

justafan wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

You do realize that has nothing to do with who they think is at fault and more Bioware wanting a dramatic scene.  I would haxard a guess Tali is the type who would hesitate to kill a friend, and the moment doesn't really lend intself to rational thought.  And Raan could never make up her mind on what to do anyways.  In short, Bioware really wanted to throw Tali off a cliff for drama.  And really, Legion is the dumb one, all he had to do was run away while uploading the code.

If I had to guess, BioWare would have claimed something like "Legion can't transmitt a code as complex as the Reaper upgrade while moving" or something like that.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No. Again, YOU fail to understand.
Javik has zero reason to lie at this point and is never sugar-coats anything. Just at the quarian's were striaght about them starting the Morning War, Javik is straight about the synthetcis starting the Metacon War. Simple as that.

And I aslo remind you that there is nothing that anyone says that contridicts what the Catalyst says. Does that make what it does right?
And like I JUST said, what you shoud doubt about them, is the fact that Legion straight-up admits he has full control of how you percieve the information, like how he uses suited quarians as placeholders in the images insetad of showing how they really looked. And that the server he's on is overrun by Heretics and Reaper code. AND how Legion's entire premise for bringing you here is to use you as a decoy so that it can get the geth out of that server.

Heastrom. Adas. Kaddi. Ket'osh. Uriyah. These are all quarian worlds, as well as every system the geth took. And according to Gerrel, the geth had at least more then four systems they went through to get to Rannoch, not including Rannoch's own system. So there were at least seven systems the quarians owned.  THAT'S your proof.
And as stated repeatedly, the geth took every single world the quarians owned. And for 300 years, the quarians did nothing BUT look for a new world.
But they need a world that's (a) dextro-based, ( in the "shirt-sleeves" habital temperature zone, © has oxygen-based air, (d) has air particals that don't kill when the breathe it in, (e) has food sources that don't need to be reduced to sterilized paste to eat. (f) has tolirable gravity levels, (g) has clean water composition, and (h) has Rannoch's same insect-free symbiotic ecology that they are physologicly require to restore their immune systems.
How many worlds like THAT do you think there are? Any worlds they terraformed using plants exported from Rannoch are under geth control. Any other habitable dextro worlds that even come CLOSE are all turian settled. They eventually tried settling world that WOULDN'T be very hospitible to them, like the high-gravity world of Ekuna. They settled, the patitoned the Coincil for rights, who in turn demanded the world be turned over to them or they would send dreadnoughts to bomb any quarians that weren't off the planet in a day. So NO, it WASN'T that simple. They weren't space refugees by CHOICE.

You are the one that would sacrifice the welfare of 2.1 billion people for what everyone assumed were no better then husks. They didn't believe the geth were alive, or that they were destorying anything that couldn't be replicated. You trash the quarians for acting desperate and doing what they needed to for the sake of preserving the culture. You support the geth doing the exact same thing by siding with the Reapers, yet chastize the quarians for it?
The correct responce is that you don't get to tell anyone about moral and amoral when you have such nieve viewpoints about right and wrong, and thinking that everything is going to conform to yoiur strict sence of right and wrong. Everything is black and white to you, and you never bother to look at the gray. and you do it all from prejudiced viewpoints. You support the geth doing what they did in desperation to preserve their culture, yet chastize the quarians for doing the same. The quarians did it at the geth's expence, and you hate them. The geth did it at the galaxy's expence, and you endorce them.
See the flaws? So again, don't act like you have the right to lecture anyone when you never bother to look at it from anyone elses viewpoint.

1.  Please direct me to where I can her Javik say synthetics STARTED war.  He said they TURNED which we know does not mean definitively that they started it.

2.  Rannoch, Adas, and Uriyah are all in the same system.  That is like Mercury, Venus and Earth.  None of those require trade with anyone or travel on Mass Relays.  Adas was a mining planet with a small population.  They could easily return to Rannoch and live.  Uriyah als mining with no population to speak of.  Haestrom was used strictly as observation planet so again no population to speak of.  The Far Rim which is right by the Veil.  Perhaps you missed the point I was making.  The other races have colonies spread far across the galaxy and requrie relays to get there.  They have huge populations on those planets.  I asked you to find me a planet owned by the Quarians that had huge populations that would be hard to relocate to Rannoch.  You find me a bunch of mining planets with like 5 people on it that they could basically fly to in Apollo 13.  The Quarians don't need the Council as much as you claim because their dextro based life was primarily based on Rannoch.  They killed emerging sentient life to protect a couple of sh*tty planets outside of their immediate system if I believe you.  Boy genocide comes cheap these days for Quarians.

3.  And you ignored the question.  If a racist thinks someone of another race is sub-human and and no better than an animal, what should be their crime for killing it? 

4.  Please get a job writing mass effect 4 and then I will believe your fan fic.  Until then no.

1. www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKafW50ADew
Go to 12:15 and play from there:
"Very early, we encountered the dangers posed by machine intelligences. They rebelled against us."
Not the underlined: Rebelled. 
Then he says they resolved to unite all races in their empire to stop them, becoming the Metacon War.

2. They are still quarian worlds. You asked for quarian worlds, and I gave them. And also, they were still attacked by the geth despite being small mining worlds with no military presance what-so-ever.
And the rather large city ruins and number of buildings on Haestrom seem to invalidate that claim of yours, because that was alot of buildings for "no real population," now wasn't it?
I think YOU missed the point. The quarians had more then just Rannoch, and at least four other systems that are never shown. Also, the quarian race of 17 million is referred to as spicifically being  less then 1% of the quarian race. 0.7% of the race to be more accurate. The original race would have numbered at least 2 billion lives. And the quarians were spread over at least five systems, since Tali exposits in ME1 that the quarians once had several star systems and worlds.
I also remind you that we never see any hanar worlds, or even Kahje, their homeworld. yet we know they exist. And what about the turians? For all their size, we only see, what, 5 worlds they own? (Invictus, Gellix, Altakiril, Digeris, Xerceo). I doubt their population is limited to that, especally when there are supposedly dozens more colonies never showen (remember the "Turian Insigna" fetch-quest in ME1? Every one is for a turian colony.) So again, you are making assumptions. Seeing is believeing to the point of being the only truth to you.
And again, WRONG. The only dextro-life planet was Rannoch. They imported plants from Rannoch for other worlds, but because Rannoch's ecology is small, there isn't enough to seed multiple planets at a time. Hence they need dextro imports from the turians to expidite the process and continue supporting a growing infrastructure. They're economy is small, so the advancement was slow, hence why they only had a reletivesly small teretory of five systems or so, compaired to the 20 or so owned by humans alone, which supposedly equals the other Council races. So no, the quarians are small fish compaired to them, and NEED those trade relations to continue expansing into the modern galaxy.
And they were all at risk because of the geth. It was either them, or the future of their sociaty. Literally a kill or be killed situation. And the geth were nither considered to be alive, or likely to survive the Council reprasial if discovered, so they were figured to be a lost cause no matter what was chosen. There literally was no real choice but the course they took, if they wanted their culture to continue.

3. That is totally dependant on the government doing the judging. For example, in China, pets are not only considered sub-human, but are considered alternate food sources. And therefore, completely legal to consider as sub-human with no rights.
And if you are looking for an in-game example, look at the Batarians. Slavery is completely legal and scanctioned by them, to the point where killing them just because you feel like it is completely legal.
You act like the rights you have are shared and endorsed by every living being. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone sees it that way. One man's good deed is another man's felon. Something that you would be tried and incarcerated for doing in one government will be rewarded with a pat on the back by another.
It's like Frankenstien deciding to kill the being he created. He doesn't see it as a living being, but as something that mimincs life, and that if it isn't stopped, everyone is going to suffer.
The quarians are like that. The beings they created, they have no idea if the really are alive, but know that their continued existance will bring ruination on them. Either by their hand or the Council, the geth are escentally considered doomed regardless of the choice. So they might as well pick the choice that dooms the geth, instead of the choice that dooms the geth AND the quarians.

4. You have provided NOTHING that proves it as untrue. If anything, you are letting your headcannon cloud your perception. And you didn't deny my assertation, did you?

And because you are going to try and use it against me, I'll list the stated 20 human systems here, plus four extra for good measure:
Boltzman system (Bekenstien)
Eular system (Benning)
Amun system (Anhur, shared with indipendent batarians)
Vetus system (Elysium)
Irea system (Horizon)
Theseus system (Feros)
Skepsis system (Watson & Franklin)
Enoch system (Joab)
Asguard system (Terra Nova, Loki, Tyr, Borr)
Utopia system (Eden Prime)
Decoris system (Sanctum)
Pheniox system (Intai'sei & Pinnicle Station. System shared with turians)
Athens system (Proteus. Recent colony)
Then there are the worlds that are in systems not yet named:
Akuze
Amaterasu (listed home of Ashley Williams' family before 2183)
Shanxi
Czarnobóg (Alliance supply depot world)
Mindoir
Demeter
Ferris Fields  (defunct: 2185)
Fehl Prime (defunct: 2185)
New Canton (defunct: 2185)
Freedom's Progress (defunct: 2185)

1.  The Geth rebelled.  They rebelled because they were attacked.  All Javik told is was the effect (a rebellion).  He never tells us the cause (why). 

2.  You are going on a tangent.  I asked about worlds and populations to say that most of the Quarians lived on Rannoch and were not inhabiting these other planets.  I see no evidence their planet that sustained them long before the Council could not support them.  If they are too stupid to manage their own population I am not sure why the Geth should pay for it with their lives.  Again, I don't care about the Quarians problems.  That is their problem to fix.  They have no right to decide to fix it by conveniently deciding well hey if we say the Geth are not really alive we can just kill them.  I already posted my morality.  Some random dude on the internet is not getting me to change my ideals.  So you have your morals, I have mine.  I simply very good following mine as I hope you do following yours.  There is really nothing more to say about it.

3.  This makes not sense.  I am not asking anyone to follow my ideals.  I am telling you my ideals and telling why when I have to decide by my ideals that the Quarians die.  The OP gave me the choice and I judge them based that choice.  How does that affect you.  Do you see me telling you to argue with me.  The only person trying to force their ideals on someone is you.  I don't care what you think or what the Quarians think.  In my playthrough if I had no choice the Quarians die.  You can make whatever decision you want in your play through and I don't care.  If I have to choose between Batarian slavers and non slavers then the slavers die, end of story.  Hell, I am playing ME2 and just remember the Asari have slaves on Illium.  The blue chic tries to explain to me how beautiful their form of slavery is but if I have to choose whether she lives or an ugly Rachni who is not a slaver lives then the pretty blue b*tch dies end of story.

4.  You are confused about head cannon.  Unless something is stated in the story, all of this is head cannon.  The scenario you talk about is stated by no one in the story so unless you are Casey Hudson, I am not required to believe your theories

[justafan]

silverexile17s wrote...

justafan wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

You do realize that has nothing to do with who they think is at fault and more Bioware wanting a dramatic scene.  I would haxard a guess Tali is the type who would hesitate to kill a friend, and the moment doesn't really lend intself to rational thought.  And Raan could never make up her mind on what to do anyways.  In short, Bioware really wanted to throw Tali off a cliff for drama.  And really, Legion is the dumb one, all he had to do was run away while uploading the code.

If I had to guess, BioWare would have claimed something like "Legion can't transmitt a code as complex as the Reaper upgrade while moving" or something like that.

"Welcome to TotallyLegitNotSuspiciousInAnyWayReaperCode Installer.  To install this software, please exit out of all other applications, including common sense, coherent plot, and basic motor functions.  To run, must also download 'senseless sacrifice'."

Modifié par justafan, 21 mars 2013 - 08:44 .

[Iamjdr]

When did I say it was who they think was at fault. I was more thinking along the lines of this being a judge of character. Legion is supposed to represent every single good Geth that I have never met that apparently only want peace and understanding. But when not given what he wants he attempts to murder me without a second thought. But I've met and heard many different Quarian oppinions on the war and here we are standing on the verge of retaking there homeworld but they do not attack shep or legion to stop them.. They just watch in horror as you doom 17 million to death people so that Geth can be individuals.

[tevix]

@Remy

Man I wish I had Silver's stamina to write novels to each reply.

Remy, you're rejecting every good argument with "Well..show me this...show me that...that's not story that's game mechanic".

1) Tali & Raan don't kill shepard when allying with the geth because that's just not their character. They're BOTH wet noodles. That's plot, not game mechanic

2) You keep saying you require evidence to believe anything. Well, Gerrel requires evidence that the geth will stand down before he does. How is that different?

3) For the last time I ***didn't sugarcoat Xen***. F---! How you personally feel about her personality is irrelevant. I stated factually her objective reasons for voting for the war. She wants the geth back as tools, and she wants to test her experimental tech.

4) You can argue that the quarians didn't stand up to their leaders. Guess what? Neither did the geth. How many geth did you see break off from the fleet to protect the quarians? None. Zero. Zilch. Squat. Goose Egg.

ABSOLUTLEY NONE. I don't care that they didn't have a reason to, they chose not to. Thta puts them on par with the quarian fleet, so that point is moot.

5) You want evidence the Geth can distinguish willing vs. unwilling combatants? Here.

Legion doesn't kill shepard on sight. Legion doesn't kill quarians on sight. Quarians don't kill Legion on sight. Legion assists in targeting "true" geth platforms on haestrom. The "true" geth platforms on haestrom attempt to kill him back. They can distinguish. The primes awakened in the Server don't kill shepard or his squad on sight. They CAN distinguish. They choose not to.

6) As Silver said, the geth with reaper code defend themselves using fighters to intercept individual shots, of which their are likely thousands. Even if they CAN'T determine Flag ships (which at that level of intelligence I bet they could) they COULD make precision strikes to disable quarian ships. They could choose not to target escape pods, or civilians attempting retreat. They choose to kill them.

7) You say the ****'s are war criminals. You then say the Geth's taking part in genocide (alliance with reapers) is ok because they were trying to protect themselves.

Tha ****s justified their attempted genocide of an entire society (Jewish) as protecting their "master race".

8) The "true" geth said that the heretics are different because they believe organics should die and ally with the reapers. By allying with the reapers and helping kill all organics they, by definition, are heretics.

You see everything spouted by the geth, or in favor of the geth as gosepl. You then say anything in favor of the quarins is biased, or not true, or not canon, or lacking evidence. If you can make assumptions about the geth based on a couple of potentially false server scenes, you can make assumptions about the quarians based on the same amount of information.

The fact is, the Geth's attrocities and capabilites are spelled out clearly from ME1-ME3 you just choose to ignore them because you want the geth to be innocent puppies.

They're not, suck it up.

The quarians may have attempted genocide on the geth. The geth attempted genocide on the entire galaxy. That makes them the enemy.

[Phatose]

...Wait a minute.

Why exactly would the councils laws affect the Quarians anyway? They weren't members of the council, and Rannoch is not in council space.

[silverexile17s]

justafan wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

justafan wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

You do realize that has nothing to do with who they think is at fault and more Bioware wanting a dramatic scene.  I would haxard a guess Tali is the type who would hesitate to kill a friend, and the moment doesn't really lend intself to rational thought.  And Raan could never make up her mind on what to do anyways.  In short, Bioware really wanted to throw Tali off a cliff for drama.  And really, Legion is the dumb one, all he had to do was run away while uploading the code.

If I had to guess, BioWare would have claimed something like "Legion can't transmitt a code as complex as the Reaper upgrade while moving" or something like that.

"Welcome to TotallyLegitNotSuspiciousInAnyWayReaperCode Installer.  To install this software, please exit out of all other applications, including common sense, coherent plot, and basic motor functions.  To run, must also download 'senseless sacrifice'."

LOL:lol:
I'm pretty sure that the endings came from that site too.

[justafan]

Iamjdr wrote...

When did I say it was who they think was at fault. I was more thinking along the lines of this being a judge of character. Legion is supposed to represent every single good Geth that I have never met that apparently only want peace and understanding. But when not given what he wants he attempts to murder me without a second thought. But I've met and heard many different Quarian oppinions on the war and here we are standing on the verge of retaking there homeworld but they do not attack shep or legion to stop them.. They just watch in horror as you doom 17 million to death people so that Geth can be individuals.

Sorry, my bad, a looong time ago someone tried to make the connection that said scene reflects them thinking their own race was at fault.  Ugh, all these Geth v. Quarian debates are starting to blend together for me.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

...Wait a minute.

Why exactly would the councils laws affect the Quarians anyway? They weren't members of the council, and Rannoch is not in council space.

They USED to be. Back before the Mroning War, the quarians were members of the Citadel Races too, with their own embasy and everything. The Council's laws were theirs to follow.  After the Morning War, the quarians were booted from the Citadel Races and made exiles.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mars 2013 - 08:50 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

Tali is made Admiral post trial when she is no longer "discraced", remember?
And you really think Gerrel is going to come aborard a Cerberus ship that is run by a Cerberus-Shackled A.I. to speak with a geth? Only SHEPARD ever knows about the split. And AGAIN, Shepard's word isn't trustible because of Cerberus standings.
And regarding the Council, if someone knocked on your door and told you a statue told you the world was going to end and everyone was going to be killed by gaint living robot cuttlefish, would YOU believe them at face value? No. You'd brand them a crackpot or a nutcase. Especally if they have absolutly nothing to back up the claim with. So NO, that doesn't weaken my case. If anything, it shows you trust one person on face-value blind faith, then chastize someone else for not doing exactally what the person you trust didn't do.

And the fact you don't care when it's the same thing proves alot. Namely that you are prejudiced against organic problems. Headcannon yourself all you want, you can't ignore the geth were the orcistrators of their fate just as much as the quarians were.

And AGAIN, it's what's considered mechs over the futrue of 2.1 billion. And for a race that is likely dead anyway, and assumed to be rebuildible.

And again, you're prejudice. Getting apathy from you is like getting water from a stone. No one could cope with the shock of someone so close to them betraying them like that. Especally not someone as sensitive as Tali. It would devestate her just by the thought of it.

So they can't talk via vid comm.  Legion can't go to the Flotilla like he did during the loyalty mission.  There is not a single place in the entire universe that he can meet with Legion.  Give me a f**king break.  You are just making excuses.  Tali is made Admiral before the war.  So guess what before the war, she can tell them about the Geth. 

If that person just saved the Citadel and was a Spectre then yes I would listen and investigate.  That is kind of why I made him Spectre.  In a world where talking statues can exist otherwise their wouldn't be laws banning their existence then yes I would.

Yes the Geth asked to be created, asked the quarians to f**k up and make them sentient, and try to slaugher them for a few sh*tty mining planets.  Like I said Amoral bastards.

Yes Tali can cope enough to say Stand Down but not enough to say Stand down, the geth have reaper code. 

MEETING Legion isn't the probem. Finding anything that cooberates anything he says IS. It doesn't MATTER where they talk, there STILL isn't going to be any physical proof that shows Legion is sincere. Just words. Just look at the galaxy. Even by ME2, the Heretcis are stil active and launching attackes (N7 Mission: Crashing Ship and N7 Mission: Geth Weather Machine. Not to mention the Firewalker mission packs)
And for the record, as I said BEFORE in this thread, Legion and Tali maintained communication and DID remotely present the
option to the Admirals AFTER the suicide mission.
But nothing came of it. Gerrel still had absoultly no reason to trust a word Legion said as being true. Xen didn't even see Legion as alive, bartering for the sake of fullfiling it's self-preservation programming. Raan didn't see any way the geth and quairans could co-habitate peacefully with all the bad blood between the two factions. Only Koris and Tali believed that Legion was sincire.
However, before anything else could be argued, Legion cut contact, and returned to geth space. The matter was never brought up again because Legion never responded to Tali's attemps to resablish contact.

And being a Spectre doen't mean squat when you are working for a listed enemy of the Council. One that persoally attacked the quarian people (Mass Effect: Ascension) and caused Rachni outbreaks in several systems. AND Shepard has been dead for two years. We already saw that cloning exists in Mass Effect, so how is anyone to know this is the real, original Shepard? Kaiden/Ashley didn't trust you. Hell, even Anderson doesn't trust you. Tali will tell you that half of the people Shepard knows would shoot him on sight to learn of Cerberus, Spectre status be damned. Also, the many criminals, (Kasumi, Jack, Thane,) unaffliliated rouges (Garrus, Zaeed, Samara, Mordin) wanted terrorest cell members (Jacob, Miranda), and exiled/non-council race members (Grunt, Tali, Legion) that Shepard travles with now make the word of the Commander even more suspect. Then there is the Alpha Relay, blown up because of what the galaxy considers an uncornfirmed myth, and sending the Alliance on the verge of war with the Batarians, making Shepard go from crackpot to lunitic in the eyes of the galaxy.
So no, literally no one is willing to back Shepard's word on blind faith right now. Only Anderson backs him/her, after he gets solid proof on Horizon (the collector bodies Shepard left in his/her wake) that Shepard was right about the Collectors.

And AGAIN: DEAD ANYWAY REMEMBER? The ship is basically sinking, so why go down with it? The quarians figured that even if the WERE sapiant (which STILL no one believed yet), that the Council was going to kill them anyway. They figured the geth were BEYOND saving, but the rest of quarian sociaty ISN'T. Does the term "It's time to turn our attention to those we can still save" ring any bells here?
It WASN'T being amoral. They simply gave up on saving the geth being phesible, since if they didn't kill them, the Council would have done it themselves. So STOP with your condesending BS. It's no more amoral then Shepard writing off 300,000 batartans to stall the Reapers.

1.  I talk, I listen, I decide.  There are times in life where there is no hard evidence.  I just don't default to the well let's go to war.  You say Gherel and Xen had not reason to listen.  Cool beans dude.  That is why the Quarians die.  They made a call based on their morality, I made a call based on mine.  Unfortunately for them, I am the hero of the game so they die. 

2.  Spectres are above the law.  They can ally with whomever the hell they want because the Council gave them that power.  If they don't want to listen to the person they gave said power too then don't care if it costs them there life.  And Anderson doesn't try and kill Shep.  Neither do his crew members.  They have doubts and they get over them  Ash and Kaiden don't and that's why in 50% of my playthroughs they die.

3.  No I don't remember you dead anywhere is not in the story.  It is headcannon you want to pass of as fact.  Like I said, go write the d**n sequel if you want me to believe your head cannon but unitl you do, I don't. 

[Phatose]

No, they weren't members of the council. They had an embassy. And as I recall, the Batarians had an embassy on the Citadel as well. Council laws were still not enforced in their space.

Hell, when the Geth attack humanity, the Council tells Udina to smeg off, since it's not in their space. Council law doesn't apply there.

[justafan]

Phatose wrote...

...Wait a minute.

Why exactly would the councils laws affect the Quarians anyway? They weren't members of the council, and Rannoch is not in council space.

They Wouldn't.  Quarians are as bound to the council as say Aria, ie. they can make whatever laws they damn well please so long as they are outside Council Space.  Quoting council law at the Quarians is like trying to sue the Reapers because they built more dreadnoughts than the Turians.

Modifié par justafan, 21 mars 2013 - 08:57 .