4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

And if the Geth are truly the innocent victims who only want peace they are portrayed as and the Quarians are the Amorale genocide seeking warmongers, why is it that both tali and admiral rann do nothing to stop shep or legion from uploading the reaper code to the Geth and if the code is uploaded they both commit suicide after the Quarians are wiped out but if you don't let legion or the Geth VI upload the code they both try to murder shep and need to be stopped by tali/rann well before anything happens to the rest of the Geth.... Just food for thought

You do realize that has nothing to do with who they think is at fault and more Bioware wanting a dramatic scene.  I would haxard a guess Tali is the type who would hesitate to kill a friend, and the moment doesn't really lend intself to rational thought.  And Raan could never make up her mind on what to do anyways.  In short, Bioware really wanted to throw Tali off a cliff for drama.  And really, Legion is the dumb one, all he had to do was run away while uploading the code.

No no.  The writers never make mistakes except when I don't like the endings they write.  So obvious mistakes like this one not not have Tali warn Gherel the reapers are uploading the Reaper code are not because of oversights in how they set up the game and dialogue but dumb as reasons like they were not not to stop Shep or Tali was so shocked she could say Stay down but not Stand down the Geth have Reaper code.  Apparently those last 5 words that will decide the fate of your species can't be voiced, lol.

[Phatose]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

If the choice is them or the the Jews, yeah.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

Tevix, did you honestly take the time to think about what my response would be?  Seriously.  Did you?  The flaw in your logic is so obvious it is sad but here goes.

If I have to choose between the Germans (Quarians) who elected leaders that tried to exterminate the Jews (Geth) then I guess I will have to live with out Frankfurthers and my new BMW.  But I guess a hot dog and a car are the sacrifices I am willing to make to save the people who sufferred a holocaust.

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

If the choice is them or the the Jews, yeah.

D**n you, you just made my response to him anti-climatic.

[Edolix]

What a terrible example. The Jews didn't exterminate 99% of the german population.

[tevix]

I knew what your answer would be. It was a setup for my next one.

SOOOO....

Next question:

You DO know that not all germans voted for **** power, right?

Same with quarians. Why should 100% of quarians die when 100% didn't accept their leadership?

[justafan]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

Tevix, did you honestly take the time to think about what my response would be?  Seriously.  Did you?  The flaw in your logic is so obvious it is sad but here goes.

If I have to choose between the Germans (Quarians) who elected leaders that tried to exterminate the Jews (Geth) then I guess I will have to live with out Frankfurthers and my new BMW.  But I guess a hot dog and a car are the sacrifices I am willing to make to save the people who sufferred a holocaust.

Ironic since the Quarians as a species seems to draw a lot of parrallels to the Jews of WWII seeking refuge (among many other inspirations).  But still, do we really need to keep calling in Godwin?  Talking about the natzys never gets a conversation anywhere.  This is a work of fiction, the holocaust was a totally different (and real) case.  

Now comparing the Cylon genocide in Battlestar Galactica on the other hand....

Modifié par justafan, 21 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[tevix]

The WW2 referance is not to draw a parallel between that and the MW.

It's to draw a parallel to Remys argument that because some quarians voted for a certain leader 100% of them deserve death.

That's a ridiculous reason to vote in favor of the geth.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No. Again, YOU fail to understand.
Javik has zero reason to lie at this point and is never sugar-coats anything. Just at the quarian's were striaght about them starting the Morning War, Javik is straight about the synthetcis starting the Metacon War. Simple as that.

And I aslo remind you that there is nothing that anyone says that contridicts what the Catalyst says. Does that make what it does right?
And like I JUST said, what you shoud doubt about them, is the fact that Legion straight-up admits he has full control of how you percieve the information, like how he uses suited quarians as placeholders in the images insetad of showing how they really looked. And that the server he's on is overrun by Heretics and Reaper code. AND how Legion's entire premise for bringing you here is to use you as a decoy so that it can get the geth out of that server.

Heastrom. Adas. Kaddi. Ket'osh. Uriyah. These are all quarian worlds, as well as every system the geth took. And according to Gerrel, the geth had at least more then four systems they went through to get to Rannoch, not including Rannoch's own system. So there were at least seven systems the quarians owned.  THAT'S your proof.
And as stated repeatedly, the geth took every single world the quarians owned. And for 300 years, the quarians did nothing BUT look for a new world.
But they need a world that's (a) dextro-based, ( in the "shirt-sleeves" habital temperature zone, © has oxygen-based air, (d) has air particals that don't kill when the breathe it in, (e) has food sources that don't need to be reduced to sterilized paste to eat. (f) has tolirable gravity levels, (g) has clean water composition, and (h) has Rannoch's same insect-free symbiotic ecology that they are physologicly require to restore their immune systems.
How many worlds like THAT do you think there are? Any worlds they terraformed using plants exported from Rannoch are under geth control. Any other habitable dextro worlds that even come CLOSE are all turian settled. They eventually tried settling world that WOULDN'T be very hospitible to them, like the high-gravity world of Ekuna. They settled, the patitoned the Coincil for rights, who in turn demanded the world be turned over to them or they would send dreadnoughts to bomb any quarians that weren't off the planet in a day. So NO, it WASN'T that simple. They weren't space refugees by CHOICE.

You are the one that would sacrifice the welfare of 2.1 billion people for what everyone assumed were no better then husks. They didn't believe the geth were alive, or that they were destorying anything that couldn't be replicated. You trash the quarians for acting desperate and doing what they needed to for the sake of preserving the culture. You support the geth doing the exact same thing by siding with the Reapers, yet chastize the quarians for it?
The correct responce is that you don't get to tell anyone about moral and amoral when you have such nieve viewpoints about right and wrong, and thinking that everything is going to conform to yoiur strict sence of right and wrong. Everything is black and white to you, and you never bother to look at the gray. and you do it all from prejudiced viewpoints. You support the geth doing what they did in desperation to preserve their culture, yet chastize the quarians for doing the same. The quarians did it at the geth's expence, and you hate them. The geth did it at the galaxy's expence, and you endorce them.
See the flaws? So again, don't act like you have the right to lecture anyone when you never bother to look at it from anyone elses viewpoint.

1.  Please direct me to where I can her Javik say synthetics STARTED war.  He said they TURNED which we know does not mean definitively that they started it.

2.  Rannoch, Adas, and Uriyah are all in the same system.  That is like Mercury, Venus and Earth.  None of those require trade with anyone or travel on Mass Relays.  Adas was a mining planet with a small population.  They could easily return to Rannoch and live.  Uriyah als mining with no population to speak of.  Haestrom was used strictly as observation planet so again no population to speak of.  The Far Rim which is right by the Veil.  Perhaps you missed the point I was making.  The other races have colonies spread far across the galaxy and requrie relays to get there.  They have huge populations on those planets.  I asked you to find me a planet owned by the Quarians that had huge populations that would be hard to relocate to Rannoch.  You find me a bunch of mining planets with like 5 people on it that they could basically fly to in Apollo 13.  The Quarians don't need the Council as much as you claim because their dextro based life was primarily based on Rannoch.  They killed emerging sentient life to protect a couple of sh*tty planets outside of their immediate system if I believe you.  Boy genocide comes cheap these days for Quarians.

3.  And you ignored the question.  If a racist thinks someone of another race is sub-human and and no better than an animal, what should be their crime for killing it? 

4.  Please get a job writing mass effect 4 and then I will believe your fan fic.  Until then no.

1. www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKafW50ADew
Go to 12:15 and play from there:
"Very early, we encountered the dangers posed by machine intelligences. They rebelled against us."
Not the underlined: Rebelled. 
Then he says they resolved to unite all races in their empire to stop them, becoming the Metacon War.

2. They are still quarian worlds. You asked for quarian worlds, and I gave them. And also, they were still attacked by the geth despite being small mining worlds with no military presance what-so-ever.
And the rather large city ruins and number of buildings on Haestrom seem to invalidate that claim of yours, because that was alot of buildings for "no real population," now wasn't it?
I think YOU missed the point. The quarians had more then just Rannoch, and at least four other systems that are never shown. Also, the quarian race of 17 million is referred to as spicifically being  less then 1% of the quarian race. 0.7% of the race to be more accurate. The original race would have numbered at least 2 billion lives. And the quarians were spread over at least five systems, since Tali exposits in ME1 that the quarians once had several star systems and worlds.
I also remind you that we never see any hanar worlds, or even Kahje, their homeworld. yet we know they exist. And what about the turians? For all their size, we only see, what, 5 worlds they own? (Invictus, Gellix, Altakiril, Digeris, Xerceo). I doubt their population is limited to that, especally when there are supposedly dozens more colonies never showen (remember the "Turian Insigna" fetch-quest in ME1? Every one is for a turian colony.) So again, you are making assumptions. Seeing is believeing to the point of being the only truth to you.
And again, WRONG. The only dextro-life planet was Rannoch. They imported plants from Rannoch for other worlds, but because Rannoch's ecology is small, there isn't enough to seed multiple planets at a time. Hence they need dextro imports from the turians to expidite the process and continue supporting a growing infrastructure. They're economy is small, so the advancement was slow, hence why they only had a reletivesly small teretory of five systems or so, compaired to the 20 or so owned by humans alone, which supposedly equals the other Council races. So no, the quarians are small fish compaired to them, and NEED those trade relations to continue expansing into the modern galaxy.
And they were all at risk because of the geth. It was either them, or the future of their sociaty. Literally a kill or be killed situation. And the geth were nither considered to be alive, or likely to survive the Council reprasial if discovered, so they were figured to be a lost cause no matter what was chosen. There literally was no real choice but the course they took, if they wanted their culture to continue.

3. That is totally dependant on the government doing the judging. For example, in China, pets are not only considered sub-human, but are considered alternate food sources. And therefore, completely legal to consider as sub-human with no rights.
And if you are looking for an in-game example, look at the Batarians. Slavery is completely legal and scanctioned by them, to the point where killing them just because you feel like it is completely legal.
You act like the rights you have are shared and endorsed by every living being. I hate to break this to you, but not everyone sees it that way. One man's good deed is another man's felon. Something that you would be tried and incarcerated for doing in one government will be rewarded with a pat on the back by another.
It's like Frankenstien deciding to kill the being he created. He doesn't see it as a living being, but as something that mimincs life, and that if it isn't stopped, everyone is going to suffer.
The quarians are like that. The beings they created, they have no idea if the really are alive, but know that their continued existance will bring ruination on them. Either by their hand or the Council, the geth are escentally considered doomed regardless of the choice. So they might as well pick the choice that dooms the geth, instead of the choice that dooms the geth AND the quarians.

4. You have provided NOTHING that proves it as untrue. If anything, you are letting your headcannon cloud your perception. And you didn't deny my assertation, did you?

And because you are going to try and use it against me, I'll list the stated 20 human systems here, plus four extra for good measure:
Boltzman system (Bekenstien)
Eular system (Benning)
Amun system (Anhur, shared with indipendent batarians)
Vetus system (Elysium)
Irea system (Horizon)
Theseus system (Feros)
Skepsis system (Watson & Franklin)
Enoch system (Joab)
Asguard system (Terra Nova, Loki, Tyr, Borr)
Utopia system (Eden Prime)
Decoris system (Sanctum)
Pheniox system (Intai'sei & Pinnicle Station. System shared with turians)
Athens system (Proteus. Recent colony)
Then there are the worlds that are in systems not yet named:
Akuze
Amaterasu (listed home of Ashley Williams' family before 2183)
Shanxi
Czarnobóg (Alliance supply depot world)
Mindoir
Demeter
Ferris Fields  (defunct: 2185)
Fehl Prime (defunct: 2185)
New Canton (defunct: 2185)
Freedom's Progress (defunct: 2185)

1.  The Geth rebelled.  They rebelled because they were attacked.  All Javik told is was the effect (a rebellion).  He never tells us the cause (why). 

2.  You are going on a tangent.  I asked about worlds and populations to say that most of the Quarians lived on Rannoch and were not inhabiting these other planets.  I see no evidence their planet that sustained them long before the Council could not support them.  If they are too stupid to manage their own population I am not sure why the Geth should pay for it with their lives.  Again, I don't care about the Quarians problems.  That is their problem to fix.  They have no right to decide to fix it by conveniently deciding well hey if we say the Geth are not really alive we can just kill them.  I already posted my morality.  Some random dude on the internet is not getting me to change my ideals.  So you have your morals, I have mine.  I simply very good following mine as I hope you do following yours.  There is really nothing more to say about it.

3.  This makes not sense.  I am not asking anyone to follow my ideals.  I am telling you my ideals and telling why when I have to decide by my ideals that the Quarians die.  The OP gave me the choice and I judge them based that choice.  How does that affect you.  Do you see me telling you to argue with me.  The only person trying to force their ideals on someone is you.  I don't care what you think or what the Quarians think.  In my playthrough if I had no choice the Quarians die.  You can make whatever decision you want in your play through and I don't care.  If I have to choose between Batarian slavers and non slavers then the slavers die, end of story.  Hell, I am playing ME2 and just remember the Asari have slaves on Illium.  The blue chic tries to explain to me how beautiful their form of slavery is but if I have to choose whether she lives or an ugly Rachni who is not a slaver lives then the pretty blue b*tch dies end of story.

4.  You are confused about head cannon.  Unless something is stated in the story, all of this is head cannon.  The scenario you talk about is stated by no one in the story so unless you are Casey Hudson, I am not required to believe your theories

1. I never see the geth say they started the war. I never see the quarians say the geth started the war. Javik has no reason or desire to sugur-coat anything.
Saying you need both Javik and a synthetics opinion, is like saying that you need both the Reapers and prothean's opinions to valadaie the claim that the Reapers attcaked first. It's tedious and unessessary. One opinion is enough. The quarians never shy away from who started the war. Nither does Javik.

2. Likewise, what evidence do you have that counters it? The quarians were improving their infrastructure daily, just like any other race. Just because you can't see any turian worlds outside the ones in their cluster, does that mean they do not exist? See the backwards logic you are using?
It was five systems supporting 2.1 billion lives. A small economy that couldn't possibly handle the scanctions and lawsuits the Council would levy against them. The only reason it wasn't done after the Morning War was because the quarians had nothing left to sue for.
You'd let the sociaty and future welfare of your entire race fall through for a race that is going to die by Council law regardless? THAT makes no sense. It's either the geth die, or they die and take the quarians with them. Again, the sentance "It's time we turned our attention to those we can still save" rings true here, as they turned their attention to those they felt they COULD save.  It wasn't amoral. It was placing your own race above a group that's pattently doomed (or so they assumed). After all, would you have let the Reapers invade for the sake of those 300,000 batarians at Ahrotat?

3. NO. You have been imposing your prejudice on everyone by refusing to even acknowledge the information placed in front of you that diffinitively proves that the geth are not the abused cherubs that you keep making them out to be.
I'm trying to point out that your arguements are taken lightly beacuse of the patent bias you have against the quarians.
And the REAL definition of the choice is: do you let slaves die, or civilians? Men, woman, and childeren, for slaves? Think about THAT. The quarian government WASN'T thinking of themselves. They were thinking about the billions of civilians - men, woman and childeren - that they support. The civilians that they no longer WILL be able to support and maintain if the Council comes in. You yourself repeatedly say that you favoir the civilian fleet. Well, the choice here is "slaves vs civilian fleet x 10,000."
NOW look at the choice and say "who do I save? All these innocent men, woman and childeren? Or these slaves that Council law will dictate must die either way?"
I don't think it will be so easy anymore.

4. Me, @DenyonSlayer, and @tevix have all listed multiple sources and links to the facts that the geth are not the innocent race you claim them to be. They are anything BUT theroies.

[Iamjdr]

All I want to know is why the **** did legion put me in that position to begin with? Why after he said "do we desirve death?" and I asked him what he had in mind did he not just tell me to have the quarians stand down so the Geth could retreat or that the Geth surrender and will leave rannoch willingly if allowed ? Why are the Geth so insistent on staying on rannoch? Why do they NEED reaper code? Especially when it has little to nothing to do with what actually brings peace. The only reason he Seems to want to use reaper code is so the Geth can kill the quarians before the quarians kill them." we regret the death of the creators but we see no other alternative." Got a real Ghandi on our hands here.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 21 mars 2013 - 09:16 .

[tevix]

@Finn

How is it a lousy analogy?

Remy's argument: 100% of quarians should die because some voted for lousy leadership

100% of germans should die to save the jewish because some voted for lousy leadership.

Seems pretty parallel to me....

[tevix]

@Finn

Sorry, you quoted me and said it was a bad comparison. Assumed it was targeted at me.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

1)Tali doesn't tell Gerrel about the code because she's dumb, not because it's a mechanic. Tali is young and naive, and lousy at getting her point across. This is proven to be part of her character since day 1. Same with Raan.

2) Gerrel needs a place for his people NOW to offload civilians and begin war prep to support his fleet (which is old and falling apart and never seen proper repair). No one knows how long the reaper war will last, and it's desperation forces them to need a more compatible quarian world. The quarians also can't support evac operations or other war stations while having to basically tend to his own millions of civilians at the same time.

And before you say they should have attempted peace, consider this: Even if you bring Legion to speak with Gerrel in ME2, what happens when Gerrel asks Legion if the geth would actually consider peace?

Legion says pretty much: "No, we need to see you earn it first. We need to see siginifcant long term evidence before we will even speak to you." Translation: "No, F--- you. Get on your knees and BEG BI---!"

Gerrel's response: "Well, worth a try. Back to blowing them up then, I guess". Pretty reasonable I think.

3) How in the hell is stating an objective fact sugar coating? I didn't say she was right. I didn't say I agreed with her. I said "Xen is doing this because she said she wants ---". So what, because I don't slug insults around and try to use facts my arguments are invalid?

4) Telling Gerrel to stand down "just cause" is a lousy reason. He needs a REASON to stand down. Tali and Raan are dumb, but this is consistant with their character. If the geth want to be perceived at merciful beings of peace then yes, I damn well DO expect them to take the hit to spare innocent quarians. They choose genocide on them. That's a mark against them, mutually with the quarians.

5) The geth changed in that they perceived organics as an entertaining experiment. Talk to Legion enough in ME2 and this becomes evident.

6) Gerrel's own bridge crew requests retreat. Gerrel denied it. We can assume other ship crews requested retreat, and at least a few captains granted it. Gerrel's bridge crew attempts to abandon ship. No quarians survive. We can assume thus the geth eliminated all ships, and all escape pods. This point is not an argument for either side, just stating facts.

7) Um...that's basically the debate of this entire thread. Read other points.

8) To draw off of your anology here, America would have had to actually ally with the n---s. They were the only force at the time trying to commit genocide against the rest of the world.

The geth ALWAYS have a choice. They always had the ability to say "No, we will not take place in galactic genocide to save ourselves." They chose TO take part in genocide. GALACTIC...genocide. Far worse than the quarians.

If a gunman comes up to you and says he will kill you or 100 other people including children, would you say "Sure, as long as I live"?

Course not, that'd be crazy. That IS what the geth did though.

1.  We are at an impasse, I don't begrude you for believing what you do but without a definitive statement from Bioware saying yes we wanted Tali to condemn her race to a fiery death because she couldn't finish a sentence then agree to disagree.

2.  ME2 is before the Reapers arrive.  I don't blame Legion for his response in ME2 as it is exactly what he should say when people like Xen are an Admiral.  How can he realistically think about it when the b*tch is still talking to him like a toaster? You can have people openly saying stuff that is precisely the reason why the morning war happened and expect the Geth to be like sure bring Xen and everyone who thinks like her to my planet.  However, in ME3, the Reapers are here.  The threat is immediate, maybe the opinion changes.  The council went from Shepard is a liar to holy sh*t Shep, what do we do in ME3.  Now, here is the concession, I will make.  I am not exactly sure the timing of when Legion goes dark.  If  there is definitive proof that he went dark prior to everyone being aware that the Reaper threat is actually arrived then ok I can see how that complicates things.  I just see no evidence the Quarians made any serious effort and it is the Quarians that need to get their house in order. 

3.  Ok so I will ask, is she prejudiced or not?  There is no reason not to answer a simple question.  

4.  See one above.  I don't buy it.  Even if I do then it still means the Quarians die because of their own stupidity.  Pick better leaders. 

5.  Really, no killing Shepard, living with Tali on the Normandy and killing his own people is solely because it is entertaining to Legion.  Cool, you can believe that.  Once again, I think it is Legion establishing an emotional connection to organics without being able to fully understand what it is.

6.  Where is your proof they reached escape pods?  On one hand you want to say the poor Quarians were forced to listen to their leaders when the geth were killed but then when their own lives are in danger you think they decided to mutiny rather than remain after Gherel says no?  Maybe they should have refused to serve before their lives were in danger.

7.  Not sure you point.  I think the Quarians are the agressors so I say they are the ones I have to sacrifice.  You can make your own call.

8.No my point is they allied with someone they thought was evil.  Someone who actually killed more people than Hitler.  People do desperate things and ally with enemies is my point.  Listen referring to it as Galactic Gencide is pointless when the Galaxy hates the Geth.  If the KKK controlled all other races of the world and one of the groups under them attacked my people and I have to choose between the KKK controlled races dying or my people being exterminated then guess what, they die.  If they don't want me to make that choice then stop hating me because I exist.  Or better yet, tell the Quarians to stop their attack.  No one came to the Geth's aid so sorry I choose to save my people if I am them.  You are a traitor if you are telling me you would choose otherwise.  My people trump people with hateful policies against my people 100% of the time.

Modifié par remydat, 21 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[SiriusXI]

It is a difficult decision:

The Geth were mistreated, used as slaves, and would have een killed by the Quarians without a secon thought.

The Quarians today are NOT their ancestors. They have forgotten how the Geth were treated and that it was thir ancestors who started the conflict. They don't know this. They think the Geth started it. They might change their minds. Also, they cannot directly be made responsible for the action of their poeple hundrets of years ago. It wasn't them who commited the crime.


So that's why it is not possible to chose either one without a doubt.

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

No, they weren't members of the council. They had an embassy. And as I recall, the Batarians had an embassy on the Citadel as well. Council laws were still not enforced in their space.

Hell, when the Geth attack humanity, the Council tells Udina to smeg off, since it's not in their space. Council law doesn't apply there.

Council law only applies when you want to justify attempted genocide.

[Iamjdr]

First he asked me do the Geth deserve death? I said no.
Then he says if I allow the Geth to upload the reaper code they will be alive but they will kill the quarians soon after. Now I'm thinking something Is off and I may have been wrong. He asks me if the Geth deserve death in one breath and condems the quarians to death in the next, only offering that he regrets this action but sees no other alternative.....after I just tried to find an alternative for him when he was in the exact same position as the quarians are now.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

I knew what your answer would be. It was a setup for my next one.

SOOOO....

Next question:

You DO know that not all germans voted for **** power, right?

Same with quarians. Why should 100% of quarians die when 100% didn't accept their leadership?

Because the OP gives me no choice.  I have to choose between the Germans who elected leaders who committed a heinous act and the Jews who responded to it.

What do you want me to do.  In real life and in the game, I choose peace if I can.  The OP asked me to choose and there is no option to spare the good Germans so they die.  What more is there to say?  Don't get mad at me, get mad at the OP for asking the Questions.  

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, WRONG. How the hell are they supposed to investigate wher there are NO OTHER SOURCES avalible? You didn't answer my question: WHAT other sources? A human on a Cerberus ship (a group that attacked them directly), a geth (which to the knowledge of the galaxy attempted genocide of every living being), and a discrased quarian are NOT trustworthy sorces of information. And AGAIN, no other geth besides Heretics were ever encountered by the galaxy at large, so there is NO cooraberating sorces avalibe. WHERE are you planning to look, because there is not ONE SINGLE INFORMATION SOURCE OUT THERE that has any information that matches what you have been provided. It's just like how the Council didn't believe the Reaper's existed because they had no actual, physical proof on hand, or how Anderson doesn't trust what Shepard says because of Cerberus. So you can STOP being so condicending, because you have morals of convience. It's okay for Anderson to not trust you because of lack of proof, but not Gerrel? It's okay for the geth to not take responcibility for the Heretics while the Alliance must deal with Cerberus?
Like I said, prejudiced. So tust me, you have nothing to brag about here.

And DEAD WRONG.
They have a military leader who cannot do anything for his race without a world, and must get them one if they have any hope of having a future, or helping the rest of the galaxy against the Reapers.
Xen isn't technically what you call prejudiced, because they aren't even alive to her. You have to consider something a living being to be prejudiced against it.  Xen doesn't see the geth as anything but mechs with corrupted software.
Raan, like Gerrel, has seen nothing to believe the geth are even caring of organics, let alone willing to pe peacefull.
So in truth, because you continue to use headcannon and ignore ever single point that three seperate people put up against you, then I'm afraid that sentacne and qoute is applicable only to you.

How would you react if the person you looked up to, fought side-by-side with, trusted with your life, and possibly even loved, suddenly threw away your entire race and everyone you ever knew and cared about right in front of you? I can bet you that you wouldn't even process what was happening, you would be so numb from shock. That you fail to even show a hint of sympathy is just the icing on the cake that proves you are prejudiced to anyone that doesn't favor the geth.

Umm, you can sit down and talk to Legion on the Normandy.  You can request he provide proof.  You can have a dialogue and decide for youself.  Tali made Admiral before the Geth war so she was not disgraced.  And the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers were f**king stupid so please don't think that helps you case.

And I don't care if the Alliance dealt with Cerberus or not so you can just take that argument to someone who does. 

I have certainly heard racists say other people were sub human and worse than dogs.  What should be the punishment for killing someone you think is sub-human and worse than a dog?  A stern talking too?

The time it takes me to say stand down versus stand down the geth are uploading reaper code is not long enough for shock to set in.  Dude I don't even want to talk about that anymore.  Tali is my main love interest and you are making me want to push her off that f**king cliff.  Seriously.

Tali is made Admiral post trial when she is no longer "discraced", remember?
And you really think Gerrel is going to come aborard a Cerberus ship that is run by a Cerberus-Shackled A.I. to speak with a geth? Only SHEPARD ever knows about the split. And AGAIN, Shepard's word isn't trustible because of Cerberus standings.
And regarding the Council, if someone knocked on your door and told you a statue told you the world was going to end and everyone was going to be killed by gaint living robot cuttlefish, would YOU believe them at face value? No. You'd brand them a crackpot or a nutcase. Especally if they have absolutly nothing to back up the claim with. So NO, that doesn't weaken my case. If anything, it shows you trust one person on face-value blind faith, then chastize someone else for not doing exactally what the person you trust didn't do.

And the fact you don't care when it's the same thing proves alot. Namely that you are prejudiced against organic problems. Headcannon yourself all you want, you can't ignore the geth were the orcistrators of their fate just as much as the quarians were.

And AGAIN, it's what's considered mechs over the futrue of 2.1 billion. And for a race that is likely dead anyway, and assumed to be rebuildible.

And again, you're prejudice. Getting apathy from you is like getting water from a stone. No one could cope with the shock of someone so close to them betraying them like that. Especally not someone as sensitive as Tali. It would devestate her just by the thought of it.

So they can't talk via vid comm.  Legion can't go to the Flotilla like he did during the loyalty mission.  There is not a single place in the entire universe that he can meet with Legion.  Give me a f**king break.  You are just making excuses.  Tali is made Admiral before the war.  So guess what before the war, she can tell them about the Geth. 

If that person just saved the Citadel and was a Spectre then yes I would listen and investigate.  That is kind of why I made him Spectre.  In a world where talking statues can exist otherwise their wouldn't be laws banning their existence then yes I would.

Yes the Geth asked to be created, asked the quarians to f**k up and make them sentient, and try to slaugher them for a few sh*tty mining planets.  Like I said Amoral bastards.

Yes Tali can cope enough to say Stand Down but not enough to say Stand down, the geth have reaper code. 

MEETING Legion isn't the probem. Finding anything that cooberates anything he says IS. It doesn't MATTER where they talk, there STILL isn't going to be any physical proof that shows Legion is sincere. Just words. Just look at the galaxy. Even by ME2, the Heretcis are stil active and launching attackes (N7 Mission: Crashing Ship and N7 Mission: Geth Weather Machine. Not to mention the Firewalker mission packs)
And for the record, as I said BEFORE in this thread, Legion and Tali maintained communication and DID remotely present the
option to the Admirals AFTER the suicide mission.
But nothing came of it. Gerrel still had absoultly no reason to trust a word Legion said as being true. Xen didn't even see Legion as alive, bartering for the sake of fullfiling it's self-preservation programming. Raan didn't see any way the geth and quairans could co-habitate peacefully with all the bad blood between the two factions. Only Koris and Tali believed that Legion was sincire.
However, before anything else could be argued, Legion cut contact, and returned to geth space. The matter was never brought up again because Legion never responded to Tali's attemps to resablish contact.

And being a Spectre doen't mean squat when you are working for a listed enemy of the Council. One that persoally attacked the quarian people (Mass Effect: Ascension) and caused Rachni outbreaks in several systems. AND Shepard has been dead for two years. We already saw that cloning exists in Mass Effect, so how is anyone to know this is the real, original Shepard? Kaiden/Ashley didn't trust you. Hell, even Anderson doesn't trust you. Tali will tell you that half of the people Shepard knows would shoot him on sight to learn of Cerberus, Spectre status be damned. Also, the many criminals, (Kasumi, Jack, Thane,) unaffliliated rouges (Garrus, Zaeed, Samara, Mordin) wanted terrorest cell members (Jacob, Miranda), and exiled/non-council race members (Grunt, Tali, Legion) that Shepard travles with now make the word of the Commander even more suspect. Then there is the Alpha Relay, blown up because of what the galaxy considers an uncornfirmed myth, and sending the Alliance on the verge of war with the Batarians, making Shepard go from crackpot to lunitic in the eyes of the galaxy.
So no, literally no one is willing to back Shepard's word on blind faith right now. Only Anderson backs him/her, after he gets solid proof on Horizon (the collector bodies Shepard left in his/her wake) that Shepard was right about the Collectors.

And AGAIN: DEAD ANYWAY REMEMBER? The ship is basically sinking, so why go down with it? The quarians figured that even if the WERE sapiant (which STILL no one believed yet), that the Council was going to kill them anyway. They figured the geth were BEYOND saving, but the rest of quarian sociaty ISN'T. Does the term "It's time to turn our attention to those we can still save" ring any bells here?
It WASN'T being amoral. They simply gave up on saving the geth being phesible, since if they didn't kill them, the Council would have done it themselves. So STOP with your condesending BS. It's no more amoral then Shepard writing off 300,000 batartans to stall the Reapers.

1.  I talk, I listen, I decide.  There are times in life where there is no hard evidence.  I just don't default to the well let's go to war.  You say Gherel and Xen had not reason to listen.  Cool beans dude.  That is why the Quarians die.  They made a call based on their morality, I made a call based on mine.  Unfortunately for them, I am the hero of the game so they die. 

2.  Spectres are above the law.  They can ally with whomever the hell they want because the Council gave them that power.  If they don't want to listen to the person they gave said power too then don't care if it costs them there life.  And Anderson doesn't try and kill Shep.  Neither do his crew members.  They have doubts and they get over them  Ash and Kaiden don't and that's why in 50% of my playthroughs they die.

3.  No I don't remember you dead anywhere is not in the story.  It is headcannon you want to pass of as fact.  Like I said, go write the d**n sequel if you want me to believe your head cannon but unitl you do, I don't. 

1. One geth's word is enough to dispell the fact that tens of thousands attacked the Citadel and tried to bring about galactic genocide? When there is absolutly no cooberating evidence to support a single word siad? That's NOT an example of  "talk, listen, decide." That's blatent favortisim. prejudice, and blind faith. In that order.
To the eyes of the entire galaxy, the geth ALREADY defaulted to war FIRST. They shot down everyone that ever went into the Veil. And the only contact the galaxy has had with geth has been with the Heretics, so no one even knows that the Heretics DON'T represent the true geth. And to top it off, the ONLY voice that states different, is ANOTHER, SOLITARY GETH, that has already admitted it is isolated from the wider geth collective and has been for two years. Which currently resides on a CERBERUS ship with someone that is supposed to be DEAD, and is asscoiated with terrorists, criminals, rouges and vigilanties. And to top it off, said human just wiped out 300,000 batarians in an act of genocide to defend against what is labled to be a MYTH.
Take all this together, and then ask yourself: WHAT sensible person in their right mind would just take all this and say "all right" without ANY physical proof whatsoever? Especally if that person has 17 million lives riding on every choice he makes. He can't afford to make blind leaps. He works with the information he has. Which is that the geth attacked the Citadel, and thus far, the only thing that voices the opposite is a single, isolated geth on a Cerberus ship. NOT encouraging.
The quarians are the ones using logic to make their choices, and you are the one using (biased and prejudiced) morality.

And the truth of it  comes out. You think that you are right just because you are Shepard. That's your ultimate justification? I'm right for just because?
I'm sorry, but if that isn't the most prejuidced, biased, self-praising statement I ever heard, I don't know what is.

2. Really? Like how Saren allied with the Reapers and the geth? You're saying THAT was perectly fine for him to do?  Or Tela Vasir with the Shadow Broker?
Because if anything, these seem to be perfect examples of why it's NOT okay for Spectres to ally themselves with whoever they want. Because they then get their status revoked. To get that status revoked, they are subjugated to Council judgement, so NO, they AREN'T untouchable.
Good GOD, do you hear yourself? If what you said was true, the Council would have brushed off Saren's association with the geth, insetad of sending Shepard to hunt him down and kill him. The Council even straight-up tells Shepard that they don't trust him, and ONLY Anderson's good word prevents them from placing judgement on Shepard. So that entire point of yours is blatently false.

3.  I said the GETH were considered dead anyway. WHEN did this shift to Shepard?
The geth were considered dead regardless of what the quarians did. If not them, then the Council would come in and kill the geth, and then the quarians are in hot water. If the geth were going to be dead anywhy, why let 2.1 billion go down with them. They were trying to save who they could, since they didn't think the geth were coming out of this alive anyway. And AGAIN, since no one considered the geat alive at the time, they didn't think they were losing anything that couldn't be rebuilt.

[remydat]

justafan wrote...

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Oh yeah, here's another one I felt like throwing out.

You say the quarians die because the civlians made the mistake of accepting their leadership.

Do you believe all germans should be eliminated because of the rule of the **** back in WW2?

Tevix, did you honestly take the time to think about what my response would be?  Seriously.  Did you?  The flaw in your logic is so obvious it is sad but here goes.

If I have to choose between the Germans (Quarians) who elected leaders that tried to exterminate the Jews (Geth) then I guess I will have to live with out Frankfurthers and my new BMW.  But I guess a hot dog and a car are the sacrifices I am willing to make to save the people who sufferred a holocaust.

Ironic since the Quarians as a species seems to draw a lot of parrallels to the Jews of WWII seeking refuge (among many other inspirations).  But still, do we really need to keep calling in Godwin?  Talking about the natzys never gets a conversation anywhere.  This is a work of fiction, the holocaust was a totally different (and real) case.  

Now comparing the Cylon genocide in Battlestar Galactica on the other hand....

Why are you taking me to task about Godwin when Tevix posed the question and I simply asked.  Please take that up with him.

And yes, the Quarians ironically have elements of both the Germans and the Jews.  They are at times horrifically amoral and yet tragic at the same time in their quest for a homeworld.  This is precisely why Tali is my love interest and I opt for peace in my ACTUAL playthrough.  They all don't deserve to do but once again, what do you want me to do when the OP asks me to choose.  I chose.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

No, they weren't members of the council. They had an embassy. And as I recall, the Batarians had an embassy on the Citadel as well. Council laws were still not enforced in their space.

Hell, when the Geth attack humanity, the Council tells Udina to smeg off, since it's not in their space. Council law doesn't apply there.

It did back then. They were allowed their personall cultures (slavery is ingrained into batarian cultue, hence why it wasn't punished). However, when you directly violate Council law regarding illegal/unsanctioned study into forbiddian/protected technologies (prothean ruins, Mass Relays, A.I. research), the hammer comes down. In Mass Effect: Revelation, the Alliance is inflicted sanctions for creating an A.I. "Eliza" at Gagarian Station. That was one shackled A.I. What do you think the punsihment for thousands of unshackled A.I.s is?
Not pretty.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mars 2013 - 09:37 .