4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Auld Wolf

Also, thank you for posting a second point that proves completely you blow off what everyones been saying.

Your first post said, essentially, "This is stupid, we should go for peace". Duh, but that's not the point of this thread.

Your second point said, essentially "This is stupid, your all racist and picking the quarians because they're organic".

Even though I've been providing rather objective reasons why I no longer side with the geth. None of those reasons have ANYTHING to do with race.

Neither do silver's arguments.

Neither do Deinon's.

0/10 Obvious troll is obvious.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

*Sigh*

I'm gonna say this ONE MORE TIME.

@Remy

My n--- comparison was NOT to draw a parallel between WW2 and the MW. It was PURELY to draw a comparison for your argument of:

"Some of them voted for bad leadership, so 100% should die."

I'm glad you have other arguments to back up your choice. I'm NOT trying to debunk those or draw a parallel in this argument.

I am ONLY using this analogy to depose the "All die because some made a bad choice". That, IMO, is not a valid reason to choose one side over another.

I said this earlier, but apparently people forgot how to read halfway through that post.

Moving ON from that point.

The geth is a consensus, meaning ALL of them accepted the choice to eliminate the quarians, and take part in galactic genocide after they were gone. I find that unacceptable. The quarians tried to kill one race.

The geth tried to kill EVERY person of EVERY race.

My reason for choosing the Geth has nothing to do with all die because some made a bad choice. My reasons are explained ad naseum. The all die because some made a bad choice is the result of making the decision based on the parameters the OP set up not the reason for the decision. To suggest otherwise means you have spent d**n near 50 pages debating with me and still don't understand my position.

I started this morning by taking a step back and explaining my morality that led me to my decision. Where the f**k (I say this not because I am upset but because I am truly astounded you would make this claim) do you see me say I base my decision on what you suggest. I repeat the all die because of some is not my choice. It is the OP's.

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/64

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Auld Wolf

Also, thank you for posting a second point that proves completely you blow off what everyones been saying.

Your first post said, essentially, "This is stupid, we should go for peace". Duh, but that's not the point of this thread.

Your second point said, essentially "This is stupid, your all racist and picking the quarians because they're organic".

Even though I've been providing rather objective reasons why I no longer side with the geth. None of those reasons have ANYTHING to do with race.

Neither do silver's arguments.

Neither do Deinon's.

0/10 Obvious troll is obvious.

Before you say someone is a troll I would like to point out the irony of your post to Auld.

1.  You get on Auld for not understanding the point of the thread but then claim I make my decision based on all die because of some when that is clearly a result of choosing the Geth because of the parameters the OP set up and not the reasons someone chooses the Geth.

2. You say none of you reasons relate to race and that Auld is making stuff up and attributed it you but you freely attribute to me stuff I never said or claimed.

So you seem to be guilty of the very things you accuse Auld of.  Hmmm.  Are Quarians supporters the only ones to allegedly make baseless claims?

[tevix]

@Remy

More than once you cite the fact that civilian population voted for their current leadership. They followed through on said leadership's orders instead of rebelling, and thus can be held accountable for their leadership's actions.

That is usually your response to my or silver's argument that you shouldn't hold an entire society responsible for the actions of a few admirals.

From that I must conclude that one of your arguments boils down to:
"Some made a bad choice, so all should die".

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So...I don't know if I'm alone in this or not...but in the scenario the OP is going for I'd let the geth die.

Not because they're synthetic, but because geth have sided with the Reapers twice.

[tevix]

@Admiral Cheescake

Yeah, that's largely the crux of what goes into my decision against the geth if no peace is available.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

More than once you cite the fact that civilian population voted for their current leadership. They followed through on said leadership's orders instead of rebelling, and thus can be held accountable for their leadership's actions.

That is usually your response to my or silver's argument that you shouldn't hold an entire society responsible for the actions of a few admirals.

From that I must conclude that one of your arguments boils down to:
"Some made a bad choice, so all should die".

I choose the Geth for the reasons I spell out in my post about my morality mainly because the Quarians are the agressor and after 300 years still decide to be the aggressor.  That has been repeated may times.  As a result of that decision based on that reason the OP means the Quarians must all die.  I can't help it.  Once I ride with the Geth, every last Quarian dies.

Your response is that but not all Quarians voted to the be aggressor.  If I judged the Geth and Quarians as being equally at fault then I would factor that in the decision.  But I just told you why I don't think the Geth and Quarians are equally at fault because the Quarians are the aggressor.  So the fact that it is the leaders who make the decision and not everyone is irrelevant to my decision.  That is what I am trying to tell you in the above.  My overriding principle and morality has decided the Geth should be spared.  The fact that the Geth are democracy and the Quarians are an autocratic society is irrelevant.  Each group chose the method by which they would govern and you want me to overrule what I have deemed to be the main determinant of who lives or dies based on how they choose to organise their their government.

Basically you want me to ignore the facts of who did what to who and why and instead decide on which government strucuture I like more.  If people made decisions like that then why even have courts.  Just ask someone if they are a capitalist or communist and punish or kill based not on innonence or guilt but whether you prefer communism or capitalism.

Let me ask a simple question.  If the Quarians had allied with the Reapers and the Geth were the wons who tried to kill the Quarians and were almost wiped out, who would you spare.

You claim your choice is based on the alliance with the Reapers. So you have to choose based on what you have said previously the Quarians which means you are no killing 100% of Quarians despite not all of them choosing to ally with the Reapers.  So again, how they choose to organize their government is irrelevant.   It is an appeal to emotion.  The decision should not be made on emotion, it should be made on who you judge as more at fault.  In your case that is the person who allied with the Reapers irrespective of why they did it and in my case it is the person who I deem to be the aggressor. 

So your question is flawed because you are trying to get me to ignore who I think is right or wrong while you get to judge based on who you think is right or wrong.  The fact that who you think is right or wrong is also the group who doesn't rule by consensus is simply coincidence.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 01:40 .

[Venom man4]

Since I romanced Tali it's pretty common sense I would never choose the Geth, I do like them however.

[Rip504]

Geth are evil monsters.

OoO but the Quarians started it. Yea and the Geth response is one of the most horrendous acts of over cycle. Monsters.

Modifié par Rip504, 22 mars 2013 - 01:37 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Remember that mission Anderson was sent on with Saren? The one Saren set up to ensure Anderson's spectre candidacy was rejected by blowing up a refinery? The Council sent them in to shut down an illegal AI research operation. Hundreds died. The Council was cool with this. Saren kept his spectre status, Anderson got the boot.

Harmless synthetic dies. Synthetics that the Council questions its ability to defeat get diplomats.

Harmless race gets subjugated by the Turians (Volus). Race that gives them a run for their money the first time they do battle gets fast-tracked to a Council seat (Humans). Not saying the Geth would have been given a Council seat, not by a long shot, but the Council (despite its demonstrated willingness to push the helpless around - see Ekuna), like any bully, knows better than to pick fights it can't win.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 mars 2013 - 01:40 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Remember that mission Anderson was sent on with Saren? The one Saren set up to ensure Anderson's spectre candidacy was rejected by blowing up a refinery? The Council sent them in to shut down an illegal AI research operation. Hundreds died. The Council was cool with this. Saren kept his spectre status, Anderson got the boot.

Harmless synthetic dies. Synthetics that the Council questions its ability to defeat get diplomats.

Harmless race gets subjugated by the Turians (Volus). Race that gives them a run for their money the first time they do battle gets fast-tracked to a Council seat (Humans). Not saying the Geth would have been given a Council seat, not by a long shot, but the Council (despite its demonstrated willingness to push the helpless around - see Ekuna), like any bully, knows better than to pick fights it can't win.

Are the Council robots who make the exact same decision each time because I thought they were organic?  Just because I made one decision 30 years ago doesn't mean I make the same decision today as if the circumstances don't change over 30 years, lol.  Furthermore, were the AI already fully functioning or was it just research and they killed the researchers?

The Council being the smart bastards they are could come investigate decide the Geth are already too large that if they try and go the destroy route and the geth may resist and they may lose a lot of lives in the process win or lose.  Or being the power hungry bastards they are, they could come see the potential of a synethetic race to replace the Krogan as their cannon fodder and then punish the Quarians by having all the Geth now fall under Council control.  

The point is we don't know what would happen because the Quarians decided to act before the Council.  Anything we say is just different head cannon because the story does not tell us what would happen.  You are free to believe what ever head cannon you want but acting like your head cannon is 100% fact when the story dioes not say explicitly what would happen is silly.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 01:53 .

[jacob taylor416]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Geth don't have any of the pathetic, pitiful weaknesses that organics have. (Bathroom, food, water, sleep, socializing, wants, needs, etc. etc.)

They are only limited by supplies and the amount of Geth. With the Full AI upgrade they are like EDI but in a Prime/Colossus platform.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... They are not perpetual motion machines, they need 
an intake of energy and usable minerals, and therefore need to remove used minerals; as well as server size and distance from the server.  So saying they don't have any weaknesses and only limited by supplies is a joke, sure they have a much higher IQ, but they have their weaknesses (like less diversity and ability to adapt).
Even EDI states that she must be a certain distance from the Normandy while in Dr. Eva's body, and I'm pretty sure she needs to recharge a battery every now and then.  Also the Qurians were dicks and wouldn't stand down, but the Geth would not be very open and have a hard time communicating, with organics and vice-versa. 

Modifié par jacob taylor416, 22 mars 2013 - 02:40 .

[tevix]

@Remy

At the time ME3 takes place I consider the currently living quarians and geth equally at fault. Both sides have expressed an interest in change but do little to encourage it.

Thus my decision comes down to who I feel has committed the greatest attrocity at that time.

The geth, for allying with the reapers. Self preservation does not excuse galactic genocide.

If I found the quarians allying with the reapers to get rannoch back I'd wipe them out in an instant.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

At the time ME3 takes place I consider the currently living quarians and geth equally at fault. Both sides have expressed an interest in change but do little to encourage it.

Thus my decision comes down to who I feel has committed the greatest attrocity at that time.

The geth, for allying with the reapers. Self preservation does not excuse galactic genocide.

If I found the quarians allying with the reapers to get rannoch back I'd wipe them out in an instant.

Which is why your point about consensus versus not all Quarians siding with their leaders is irrelevant.  You base your decision on who allies with the reapers.  I disagree with that idea but I understand your rationale and you are free to apply it. 

I base my decision on my feeling the Quarians learning nothing from their mistake 300 years ago and once again try to solve a Quarian problem by attacking the Geth

Under either scenario yours or mine, the form of government is irrelevant.  You just condemed Quarians who didn't vote to ally with the Reapers to death based on the bold but then try and chastise me for doing the same just for a different reason.

[Iamjdr]

How exactly are you supposed to learn from a war that happened 300 years ago and wiped out 99% of the population that was even alive at the time? The quarians who made those mistakes died for them in the morning war, and the survivours have suffered the after effect of that war for 300 years. They quarians have paid there dues.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

How exactly are you supposed to learn from a war that happened 300 years ago and wiped out 99% of the population that was even alive at the time? The quarians who made those mistakes died for them in the morning war, and the survivours have suffered the after effect of that war for 300 years. They quarians have paid there dues.

I took history and learned lessons from people that lived thousands of years ago.  If you believe in religion then you likely follow a moral code that is thousands of years old and based on teachings of people who lived thousands of years ago.

So your claim makes no sense in the context of all of human history.  The vast majority of humans learn lessons from past events.  Their ancestors attacked the Geth and paid a price and then they launch another pre-emptive attack.  So yes they paid their dues and if they had chosen to work towards peace diplomatically I would have more sympathy for them.  They didn't.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 03:34 .

[Phatose]

Paying your dues doesn't mean it's now OK to do the same stupid thing all over again.

And they have history books. They know what happened.

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

Paying your dues doesn't mean it's now OK to do the same stupid thing all over again.

And they have history books. They know what happened.

Apparently history and learning from it is just a human thing.  Who would have guessed.

Seriously I would encourage people to think long and hard about what arguments they want to make before just instinctively throwing sh*t out there because that is why people like Auld feel like you are just reflexively trying to find anything that will justify your choosing the fleshy organics.  Instead of trying to poke holes in why I pick the Geth, why don't you focus on articulately why you pick the Quarians?  That is a much easier argument to make without leaving so many obvious rebuttals.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 03:39 .

[Iamjdr]

How many human historical events involve 99% of the human population being massacred by a force of AI that we created and forced to leave the planet being unable to return for 300 years?

[Iamjdr]

How is it doing the same thing? The first war started as a mad scramble to stop the Geth from becoming sentient the second was a series of preemptive strikes to initiate a war to retake there world.

[Phatose]

They were both unprovoked attacks on the Geth intent on their extermination.

[Iamjdr]

Oh and btw Liara was a prothean expert. but how much of the stuff about the protheans history that she assumed to be true actually turned out that way when she met javik?When noone really knows what happened it's hard to get the full picture

Modifié par Iamjdr, 22 mars 2013 - 03:52 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Look what happened to the batarians. Or how every race the Council doesn't want in the stars (vorcha, krogan) have been denied acess to the tech. 
And that basically IS what the Council would have done. They would have forced a tax on everything from imports, to the rights to use the Relays. because that's what they threatened to do to the humans over a single unshakled A.I. (only quick talking by the ambassidor Anita Goyle stopped their choice of hevy sanctions, reduced to penalizing humans) If they were going to impose heavy sanctions for one single A.I., what do you think the punishment is for thousands of unshacked A.I.s. is? It would basically be EXACTALLY what you just said: removial of their "Mass Relay card" verbatium. So that's right. No headcannon involved.

And in Mass Effect 3: Citadel, there is a recording in the Council Archives of them wiping out a peacefull group of A.I.s as they BEG to not be killed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:26. THAT'S your proof of Council Bias against A.I.s. Your welcome. So YES. Council law that harmless synthetic dies for beinbg synthetic IS exactally true, Verbatium.
And after the geth single-handedly wiped out the quarians.... well, the Council was a little more weary of being so gung-ho in attacking them, because with the quarians effectively wiped out, they had little to no infulence in that corner of the Terminus systems anymore. Now that they had no active excuse to go in, they thought that attacking after the fact would provoke the geth into spilling into the Terminus, which would ligut up an uncontrolible war. And with the quarians evicted already, there was no presant supporting power base in that area of space. But since the geth never came out of the Veil, they swept it under the rug and called it a day. Why waste time on something that isn't actively affecting them? Like I said, the Council are dicks.

That, and the fact that when they realized that the quarians could have possible been their forces, they were worried. They can take hits, but are afriad to, if you know what I mean.

So, WRONG. I'm not the one using the headcannon here. Especally since you hav been pointed out by four others here that your views are wrong, and loop the points without ever refuting them. YOU are the one with the incorrect views here, making You the Council in this senerio.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 04:03 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

How many human historical events involve 99% of the human population being massacred by a force of AI that we created and forced to leave the planet being unable to return for 300 years?

What does that have to do with the point.  You claimed that the Quarians couldn't learn from an event because it happened 300 years again.  That is simply an illogical statement not supported by history.

Further there are a lot of examples in history, myth, fiction, and religion that cover this topic ie the conflict between creator and created.

The Titans in Greak Mything are told their children will overthrow and due to that fear of something that has not yet pass (sounds awfully familiar to Quarians fears of AI) they attempt to kill or eat their children.  Zeus/Jupiter survives frees his siblings and they overthrow their parents.

Furthermore, the original Frankenstein has the same idea.  As for massacres please.  People being massacred and forced into exile is a pretty frequent thing in history with the Jews basically being driven from their home and wandering for 2000 years before the holocaust shames everyone into given them their home back.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 03:58 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Look what happened to the batarians. Or how every race the Council doesn't want in the stars (vorcha, krogan) have been denied acess to the tech. 
And that basically IS what the Council would have done. They would have forced a tax on everything from imports, to the rights to use the Relays. because that's what they threatened to do to the humans over a single unshakled A.I. (only quick talking by the ambassidor Anita Goyle stopped their choice of hevy sanctions, reduced to penalizing humans) If they were going to impose heavy sanctions for one single A.I., what do you think the punishment is for thousands of unshacked A.I.s. is? It would basically be EXACTALLY what you just said: removial of their "Mass Relay card" verbatium. So that's right. No headcannon involved.

And in Mass Effect 3: Citadel, there is a recording in the Council Archives of them wiping out a peacefull group of A.I.s as they BEG to not be killed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:26. THAT'S your proof of Council Bias against A.I.s. Your welcome. So YES. Council law that harmless synthetic dies for beinbg synthetic IS exactally true, Verbatium.
And after the geth single-handedly wiped out the quarians.... well, the Council was a little more weary of being so gung-ho in attacking them, because with the quarians effectively wiped out, they had little to no infulence in that corner of the Terminus systems anymore. Now that they had no active excuse to go in, they thought that attacking after the fact would provoke the geth into spilling into the Terminus, which would ligut up an uncontrolible war. And with the quarians evicted already, there was no presant supporting power base in that area of space. But since the geth never came out of the Veil, they swept it under the rug and called it a day. Why waste time on something that isn't actively affecting them? Like I said, the Council are dicks.

So, WRONG. I'm not the one using the headcannon here. Especally since you hav been pointed out by four others here that your views are wrong, and loop the points without ever refuting them. YOU are the one with the incorrect views here, making You the Council in this senerio.

They never did anything you said because the Quarians pre-empted them by not telling them.  You are not a prophet and nothing is pre-ordained.  Anything you say based on your observances of what happened to other people is by definition head cannon because the story does not say it.

And everyone knows the Council had a law banning AI.  The issue here is that they are also smart and power hungry.  They could have come to Rannoch seen the millions of mobile platforms and decided that despite the fact they hate AI, trying to shut them all down might result in them rebelling which regardless of who wins will result in Council lives being lost.  Alternatively they could have decided that while they hate AI why let all those potential soldiers go to waste and basically punish the Quarians by assuming control over that AI army so that they could use it to control everyone else.

So my point once again is yes you are using head cannon because we don't know for certain how the story would have unfolded if the Quarians did not attack.

Please go look up the definition of canom because your reasonable (and I stress the would reasonable to say no one is saying your account is not possible) theory is just that a theory.  Canon is what actually happened in the story not what you speculate what would have happened if something in the story did not occur.

And if those 4 people you talk about really want to help, they should PM you and explain to you that you can't win this debate about what is cannon and what is head cannon.  They let you rattle on with this because they share your overall opinion about the Quarians so they let your obvious misuse of the terms canon and head canon slide.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

Please read this and explain to me how something that never happened in the story is can be considered canon.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 04:15 .