4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

They havnt returned to rannoch in 300 years and the only knowledge they would have from the war would be what they were told by survivors I.e the geth slaughtered everyone. And there was two parts to that question so I'm sorry you got so hung up On the first part of the question with out adding on the second. So once again what are the quarians supposed to learn from a war that happened 300 years ago in which only 1% of the population survived.

[Alien Number Six]

The Geth are the enemy. I watch the Quarians burn them down every time.

[Ryzaki]

Alien Number Six wrote...

The Geth are the enemy. I watch the Quarians burn them down every time.

Aww

*holds get close*

Don't worry my robot friends. I'll always pick you :3

[Rip504]

Rip504 wrote...

Geth are evil monsters.

OoO but the Quarians started it. Yea and the Geth response is one of the most horrendous acts of our cycle. Monsters.

IMO Geth have no real justification for the actions they have chosen to take.

Modifié par Rip504, 22 mars 2013 - 04:50 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Look what happened to the batarians. Or how every race the Council doesn't want in the stars (vorcha, krogan) have been denied acess to the tech. 
And that basically IS what the Council would have done. They would have forced a tax on everything from imports, to the rights to use the Relays. because that's what they threatened to do to the humans over a single unshakled A.I. (only quick talking by the ambassidor Anita Goyle stopped their choice of hevy sanctions, reduced to penalizing humans) If they were going to impose heavy sanctions for one single A.I., what do you think the punishment is for thousands of unshacked A.I.s. is? It would basically be EXACTALLY what you just said: removial of their "Mass Relay card" verbatium. So that's right. No headcannon involved.

And in Mass Effect 3: Citadel, there is a recording in the Council Archives of them wiping out a peacefull group of A.I.s as they BEG to not be killed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:26. THAT'S your proof of Council Bias against A.I.s. Your welcome. So YES. Council law that harmless synthetic dies for beinbg synthetic IS exactally true, Verbatium.
And after the geth single-handedly wiped out the quarians.... well, the Council was a little more weary of being so gung-ho in attacking them, because with the quarians effectively wiped out, they had little to no infulence in that corner of the Terminus systems anymore. Now that they had no active excuse to go in, they thought that attacking after the fact would provoke the geth into spilling into the Terminus, which would ligut up an uncontrolible war. And with the quarians evicted already, there was no presant supporting power base in that area of space. But since the geth never came out of the Veil, they swept it under the rug and called it a day. Why waste time on something that isn't actively affecting them? Like I said, the Council are dicks.

So, WRONG. I'm not the one using the headcannon here. Especally since you hav been pointed out by four others here that your views are wrong, and loop the points without ever refuting them. YOU are the one with the incorrect views here, making You the Council in this senerio.

They never did anything you said because the Quarians pre-empted them by not telling them.  You are not a prophet and nothing is pre-ordained.  Anything you say based on your observances of what happened to other people is by definition head cannon because the story does not say it.

And everyone knows the Council had a law banning AI.  The issue here is that they are also smart and power hungry.  They could have come to Rannoch seen the millions of mobile platforms and decided that despite the fact they hate AI, trying to shut them all done might result in them rebelling which regardless of who wins will result in Council lives being lost.  Alternatively they could have decided that while they hate AI why let all those potential soldiers go to west and basically punish the Quarians by assuming control over that AI army so that they could use it to control everyone else.

So my point once again is yes you are using head cannon because we don't know for certain how the story would have unfolded if the Quarians did not attack.

Please go look up the definition of canom because your reasonable and I stress the would reasonable to say no one is saying your account is not possible theory is just that a theory.  Canon is what actually happened in the story not what you speculate what would have happened if something in the story did not occur.

And if those 4 people you talk about really want to help, they should PM you and explain to you that you can't win this debate about what is cannon and what is head cannon.  They let you rattle on with this because they share your overall opinion about the Quarians so they let your obvious misues of the terms canon and head canon slide.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

Please read this and explain to me how something that never happened in the story is can be considered canon.

Yet the fear of what was likely possible is what drove the quarians to not risk the destruction of their culture.
And again, harsh scanctions for a single shackled A.I.  THAT'S your proof. Now, Multiply that by 10 for a unshackled A.I.
Multiply again by a thousand. That equals total economic devesataion from all the scanctions and lawsuits.

And again, back then, the geth WERE nothing but V.I.s. And the quarians did all they could to hide the possibility of the geth being sapiant, including trying to shut them down. The protests in those vids of Legions? That's the quarians trying to diffuse the situation before the Council wises up. The entire point was that the Council was in the dark about the problems.
And the Council pattently disagrees with A.I. Assuming control of an A.I. army for themselves would have been breaking their own laws with no way to suger-coat it and weesel out of it. They would be impeached and replaced, which no Council member worth his arrogance wants.

So WRONG. The scanctions agains the Alliance for a single shackled A.I. are proof that you make them, you get punsihed. "Harsh scanctions" is the verbatium of the Council's planned punishments. It's multiplied ALOT for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s. So NO, as I said, NOT headcannon at ALL. Especally since the existance of an event where scanctions were placed against a faction (Alliance) for an unchackled A.I with NO free will IS proof of claim. If they levy harsh sacntions against that, then the punishment must be FAR steeper for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s with complete free will. So, since I DO have an example that backs my point, that DIFFINITIVELY makes it NOT headcannon.

And the four are @DenyonSlayer, @tevix, @ChronoDragon (although his views on geth are a bit harsh, he will make valid points), and @Steelcan (same harsh views on synthetics, but does bring up valid points as well).
You have proven to them that YOU are unwilling to dispell the headcannon YOU use. They do NOT let headcannon slide. (I know from experence in my first days on the BSN that this is true) , and DO admit when they are wrong on something, which is more then you have done, so don't start with your prattling when you loop your headcannon around constantly.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 04:29 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Look what happened to the batarians. Or how every race the Council doesn't want in the stars (vorcha, krogan) have been denied acess to the tech. 
And that basically IS what the Council would have done. They would have forced a tax on everything from imports, to the rights to use the Relays. because that's what they threatened to do to the humans over a single unshakled A.I. (only quick talking by the ambassidor Anita Goyle stopped their choice of hevy sanctions, reduced to penalizing humans) If they were going to impose heavy sanctions for one single A.I., what do you think the punishment is for thousands of unshacked A.I.s. is? It would basically be EXACTALLY what you just said: removial of their "Mass Relay card" verbatium. So that's right. No headcannon involved.

And in Mass Effect 3: Citadel, there is a recording in the Council Archives of them wiping out a peacefull group of A.I.s as they BEG to not be killed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:26. THAT'S your proof of Council Bias against A.I.s. Your welcome. So YES. Council law that harmless synthetic dies for beinbg synthetic IS exactally true, Verbatium.
And after the geth single-handedly wiped out the quarians.... well, the Council was a little more weary of being so gung-ho in attacking them, because with the quarians effectively wiped out, they had little to no infulence in that corner of the Terminus systems anymore. Now that they had no active excuse to go in, they thought that attacking after the fact would provoke the geth into spilling into the Terminus, which would ligut up an uncontrolible war. And with the quarians evicted already, there was no presant supporting power base in that area of space. But since the geth never came out of the Veil, they swept it under the rug and called it a day. Why waste time on something that isn't actively affecting them? Like I said, the Council are dicks.

So, WRONG. I'm not the one using the headcannon here. Especally since you hav been pointed out by four others here that your views are wrong, and loop the points without ever refuting them. YOU are the one with the incorrect views here, making You the Council in this senerio.

They never did anything you said because the Quarians pre-empted them by not telling them.  You are not a prophet and nothing is pre-ordained.  Anything you say based on your observances of what happened to other people is by definition head cannon because the story does not say it.

And everyone knows the Council had a law banning AI.  The issue here is that they are also smart and power hungry.  They could have come to Rannoch seen the millions of mobile platforms and decided that despite the fact they hate AI, trying to shut them all done might result in them rebelling which regardless of who wins will result in Council lives being lost.  Alternatively they could have decided that while they hate AI why let all those potential soldiers go to west and basically punish the Quarians by assuming control over that AI army so that they could use it to control everyone else.

So my point once again is yes you are using head cannon because we don't know for certain how the story would have unfolded if the Quarians did not attack.

Please go look up the definition of canom because your reasonable and I stress the would reasonable to say no one is saying your account is not possible theory is just that a theory.  Canon is what actually happened in the story not what you speculate what would have happened if something in the story did not occur.

And if those 4 people you talk about really want to help, they should PM you and explain to you that you can't win this debate about what is cannon and what is head cannon.  They let you rattle on with this because they share your overall opinion about the Quarians so they let your obvious misues of the terms canon and head canon slide.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

Please read this and explain to me how something that never happened in the story is can be considered canon.

Yet the fear of what was likely possible is what drove the quarians to not risk the destruction of their culture.
And again, harsh scanctions for a single shackled A.I.  THAT'S your proof. Now, Multiply that by 10 for a unshackled A.I.
Multiply again by a thousand. That equals total economic devesataion from all the scanctions and lawsuits.

And again, back then, the geth WERE nothing but V.I.s. And the quarians did all they could to hide the possibility of the geth being sapiant, including trying to shut them down. The protests in those vids of Legions? That's the quarians trying to diffuse the situation before the Council wises up. The entire point was that the Council was in the dark about the problems.
And the Council pattently disagrees with A.I. Assuming control of an A.I. army for themselves would have been breaking their own laws with no way to suger-coat it and weesel out of it. They would be impeached and replaced, which no Council member worth his arrogance wants.

So WRONG. The scanctions agains the Alliance for a single shackled A.I. are proof that you make them, you get punsihed. "Harsh scanctions" is the verbatium of the Council's planned punishments. It's multiplied ALOT for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s. So NO, as I said, NOT headcannon at ALL. Especally since the existance of an event where scanctions were placed against a faction (Alliance) for an unchackled A.I with NO free will IS proof of claim. If they levy harsh sacntions against that, then the punishment must be FAR steeper for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s with complete free will. So, since I DO have an example that backs my point, that DIFFINITIVELY makes it NOT headcannon.

And the four are @DenyonSlayer, @tevix, @ChronoDragon (although his views on geth are a bit harsh, he will make valid points), and @Steelcan (same harsh views on synthetics, but does bring up valid points as well).
You have proven to them that YOU are unwilling to dispell the headcannon YOU use. They do NOT let headcannon slide. (I know from experence in my first days on the BSN that this is true) , and DO admit when they are wrong on something, which is more then you have done, so don't start with your prattling when you loop your headcannon around constantly.

Please direct me to where it is stated by the Quarians they feared the Council as opposed to simply fearing the synthetic threat itselt.  All you are doing is providing your opinion not canon.  An opinion that once again is not unreasonable but that is still just an opinion.

Lol, the Council represents the Asari, Turians and Salarians.  Who the f**k is going to impeach them if they decide they want an AI army for the Asari, Turians and Salarians, lol. But again, all we are going right now is playing the head cannon game.

The harsh sanctions against the Alliance for the unshackled AI is proof that the canon is the Alliance was punished for an unshackled AI.  It is evidence to suggest that had they been told about the Geth they may have punished them but that does not make what you say cannon because it didn't happen in the story. 

So 4 guys who vote quarian and you think that someone helps your point, lol.  If it didn't happen in the story it is head cannon period.  I refer to to the definition again.  The difference is I know I am just giving an opinion which is why I repeatedly tell you guys believe what you what.  We are bothing offering interpretations but only one of us is deluded in thinking that what they are providing is canon.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

[CronoDragoon]

Guys, please just quote the last post to which you're responding. Quote pyramids really suck.

[Xilizhra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Guys, please just quote the last post to which you're responding. Quote pyramids really suck.

I'd also mildly appreciate it if one of you would change your avatar.

[Auld Wulf]

The probs Silver is that all of the people you've mentioned are vehemently outspoken in regards to synthetics to the point where, if we had synthetics in reality, they'd be considered bigoted and classified as neo-luddites. If you look at anything related to synthetics -- be it the Catalyst, Synthesis, the geth, the Reapers, or EDI, then you'll note that they are biased in a way that defies logic and objectivity. And that sets off alarm bells in my mind and makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Unfortunately, in the years I've lived I've been exposed to discrimination by people who react instinctively to things without sympathy. The instinct is to act within the clique and to do whatever the rest of your social group is doing, even if that is unethical. I'm seeing that kind of instinctive response here. We're not actually seeing a lot of truly logical or objective arguments from you or the others, and that's why remy is having so much ease pointing out the flaws of your arguments. You're not intellectually or emotionally passionate about this issue, you're reacting instinctively. You're being overprotective of the quarians because of familiarity, and because that's what your clique is doing.

If a person has an unbiased argument, then often they can be magnanimous. As I've pointed out in the past, I'm a quarian civilians supporter because I don't believe that all quarians are evil (though since the Morning War when they stood with the geth, it does appear like none of the civilians have the cojones to stand up to the military any more, but that still doesn't make them evil). I can magnanimously support the civilians because I respect what they've done and emotionally I can sympathise with their position.

Essentially, my problem is this.

My argument: Why kill?
The argument of the opposition: RARGH SYNTHETICS MUST ALL DIE BECAUSE HORRIBLE DEMONS.

And understanding instinctive responses, it's easy to understand why someone would make that argument, as I explained in my prior post. But that doesn't make it an intellectual argument, it's more of a kneejerk reaction instead. If there was more of a magnanimous attitude shown towards synthetics then I might believe that there are intellectual arguments involved. But I've been around the forums enough to be familiar with the "regular suspects."

And the constant degrading arguments regarding synthetics make this seem more like fantastic racism -- in other words, being racist against a species or peoples that you simply just instinctively don't like in a fictional work. But that doesn't involve intellectuality in any way. One example of this is the Morning War. The kneejerk response is to push the notion that the quarians were fighting the geth in a black and white war. Yet in the consensus, we see that it's actually the quarian civilians and the geth fighting the military. In fact, the quarian civilians take up arms to protect the geth before the geth take up arms to protect themselves.

And yet we get these kneejerk responses. Another argument is that the geth were responsible for all of the death in the Morning War. That's another instinctive response borne of the desire to protect the quarians. There is no empirical evidence that this is even remotely true, and if the consensus is to be believed, the military did a fair bit of killing. So, the opposing viewpoint can be posed that possibly the quarian military did most of the killing of civilians after the civilian uprising. But to the mind of someone acting instinctive and biased towards fantastic racism, that's not even a conceivable idea, because the geth must be evil demons, and the quarians must be poor little lambs.

Again, this is to do with familiar versus unfamiliar.

What people like remy and myself keep hoping for are more objective arguments, not instinctive ones as I've detailed above. But most of the arguments are instinctive and do sound racist. As I've said, I've actually experienced a lot of discrimination in my life and I'm pretty well attuned to it. I can see when someone is acting instinctively rather than intellectually and/or emotionally. I'm able to make that distinction, and the people arguing against the geth do sound more than a little... well, racist.

But do we? Do I? As a staunch supporter of the quarian civilians, do I sound like a racist of fictional peoples?

Just something to chew over.

[Rip504]

Rip504 wrote...

Geth are evil monsters.

OoO but the Quarians started it. Yea and the Geth response is one of the most horrendous acts of our cycle. Monsters.

IMO Geth have no real justification for the actions they have chosen to take.

What the Geth chose to do and succeeded in doing,is worse then what the Quarians may or may not have intended. Humans want their world back. It is very understandable why the Quarians want to retake their world from a hostile race that took it by "force". That is not even taking into account of the Reaper allies on two separate occasions,and the numerous amount of non Quarian organics that the Geth have also needlessly killed. Nor their lack of emotion or regret in such actions.

There are Quarians who regret what happen. Can you prove any Geth regret it? Not asking if the Geth can show regret. Just asking if you have seen a case in which the Geth regret their actions concerning the Quarian people.

remydat wrote...

Did you even play ME1?

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

Being mindful of Citadel Council laws and terrified of possible outcomes,pretty much covers that  the Quarians were indeed "terrified" of what the Citadel Council may do. As well as other potential consequences.

Tali states something along these very lines in ME1.

Modifié par Rip504, 22 mars 2013 - 05:13 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Auld Wulf wrote...

What people like remy and myself keep hoping for are more objective arguments, not instinctive ones as I've detailed above. But most of the arguments are instinctive and do sound racist. As I've said, I've actually experienced a lot of discrimination in my life and I'm pretty well attuned to it. I can see when someone is acting instinctively rather than intellectually and/or emotionally. I'm able to make that distinction, and the people arguing against the geth do sound more than a little... well, racist.

But do we? Do I? As a staunch supporter of the quarian civilians, do I sound like a racist of fictional peoples?

Just something to chew over.

Here's something to Chew on: Why is that Quarian supporters (not you) will fight in this thread to their dying day that the Geth should be exterminated like some Roach infestation on a Greyhound bus, but will side with the African Americans in Real Life when the discussion of Slavery comes up?

I've brought this up before, but it is so true. Double Standards are not cool in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Yet the "Talimancers" will sa;jfklasjhfklsjfhsakljfhklasfqisuf!@!@!@!@!@ all day against the Geth. But get them on a street corner in New York, surrounded by African Americans discussing Slavery and they will agree that "the white man is keeping them down, so they can't get a job. And they deserve food stamps, section 8 funding, disability even though they aren't disabled."

Makes me sick.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Did you even play ME1?

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

Being mindful of Citadel Council laws and terrified of possible outcomes,pretty much covers that  the Quarians were indeed "terrified" of what the Citadel Council may do. As well as other potential consequences.

Tali states something along these very lines in ME1.

Or it just means that they are terrified of the possible consequences of the AI ie the Geth attacking them.  That is the point of the council laws.  Organics fear synthetics because they think synthetics will harm them.  So the Quarians become terried of possible consequences ie the Geth will harm them.

Once again, you can have any number of interpretations which is the point I keep trying to explain.  Furthermore being scared of what the Citadel may do is not proof that the Citadel will actually do it.  It just means you are scared of it.  I am scared of what my GF will do when I don't buy her a gift on her birthday.  That doesn't mean that what I fear will come to pass.

Silver keeps talking about their Economy collapsing, trade halting and all other kinds of crap that is basically just in his head.  There is no proof they will actually follow through with it  because their attack on the Geth means we don't actually see what would have happened.  Thus all we can do is speculate.

So yes I played ME1.  I am simply capable of reading comprehension beyond a Junior High level and understand statements can be interpreted any number of ways.  It's like people want to create their own definition of canon.  

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

[Xilizhra]

What the Geth chose to do and succeeded in doing,is worse then what the Quarians may or may not have intended. Humans want their world back. It is very understandable why the Quarians want to retake their world from a hostile race that took it by "force". That is not even taking into account of the Reaper allies on two separate occasions,and the numerous amount of non Quarian organics that the Geth have also needlessly killed. Nor their lack of emotion or regret in such actions.

The geth were trying to end a threat they didn't really comprehend. The quarians tried to murder every single geth, twice. I'd say that the quarians have been wronger both times, given that the geth really didn't know how quarians worked.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yep because claiming the Quarians would have gone back to the dark ages if they hadn't killed the Geth because the Council would have pulled their mass relay card is stated clearly in the game. No head cannon involved.

Likewise claiming the council would 100% have wiped out the harmless Geth if the Quarians told them about them when that is never stated in the game is not headcannon esepecialy when we know 100% that after they killed billions, the alleged response by the Council was to send diplomatic vessels.

Apparently Council Law is harmless synethtic dies. Synthetic after it kills a billion organics invitation to join the council.

Drew and Casey wrote or told Silver about this in secret and tasked him with spreading this cannon across the Cosmos, lol.

Look dude believe what you want but please stop pretending like what you are saying is cannon. It f**king isn't and never will be until it is in the game. You have your theories based on your interpretation and other people have theirs.  You sound like someone on the Council trying to imposing their views on everyone.

Look what happened to the batarians. Or how every race the Council doesn't want in the stars (vorcha, krogan) have been denied acess to the tech. 
And that basically IS what the Council would have done. They would have forced a tax on everything from imports, to the rights to use the Relays. because that's what they threatened to do to the humans over a single unshakled A.I. (only quick talking by the ambassidor Anita Goyle stopped their choice of hevy sanctions, reduced to penalizing humans) If they were going to impose heavy sanctions for one single A.I., what do you think the punishment is for thousands of unshacked A.I.s. is? It would basically be EXACTALLY what you just said: removial of their "Mass Relay card" verbatium. So that's right. No headcannon involved.

And in Mass Effect 3: Citadel, there is a recording in the Council Archives of them wiping out a peacefull group of A.I.s as they BEG to not be killed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:26. THAT'S your proof of Council Bias against A.I.s. Your welcome. So YES. Council law that harmless synthetic dies for beinbg synthetic IS exactally true, Verbatium.
And after the geth single-handedly wiped out the quarians.... well, the Council was a little more weary of being so gung-ho in attacking them, because with the quarians effectively wiped out, they had little to no infulence in that corner of the Terminus systems anymore. Now that they had no active excuse to go in, they thought that attacking after the fact would provoke the geth into spilling into the Terminus, which would ligut up an uncontrolible war. And with the quarians evicted already, there was no presant supporting power base in that area of space. But since the geth never came out of the Veil, they swept it under the rug and called it a day. Why waste time on something that isn't actively affecting them? Like I said, the Council are dicks.

So, WRONG. I'm not the one using the headcannon here. Especally since you hav been pointed out by four others here that your views are wrong, and loop the points without ever refuting them. YOU are the one with the incorrect views here, making You the Council in this senerio.

They never did anything you said because the Quarians pre-empted them by not telling them.  You are not a prophet and nothing is pre-ordained.  Anything you say based on your observances of what happened to other people is by definition head cannon because the story does not say it.

And everyone knows the Council had a law banning AI.  The issue here is that they are also smart and power hungry.  They could have come to Rannoch seen the millions of mobile platforms and decided that despite the fact they hate AI, trying to shut them all done might result in them rebelling which regardless of who wins will result in Council lives being lost.  Alternatively they could have decided that while they hate AI why let all those potential soldiers go to west and basically punish the Quarians by assuming control over that AI army so that they could use it to control everyone else.

So my point once again is yes you are using head cannon because we don't know for certain how the story would have unfolded if the Quarians did not attack.

Please go look up the definition of canom because your reasonable and I stress the would reasonable to say no one is saying your account is not possible theory is just that a theory.  Canon is what actually happened in the story not what you speculate what would have happened if something in the story did not occur.

And if those 4 people you talk about really want to help, they should PM you and explain to you that you can't win this debate about what is cannon and what is head cannon.  They let you rattle on with this because they share your overall opinion about the Quarians so they let your obvious misues of the terms canon and head canon slide.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

Please read this and explain to me how something that never happened in the story is can be considered canon.

Yet the fear of what was likely possible is what drove the quarians to not risk the destruction of their culture.
And again, harsh scanctions for a single shackled A.I.  THAT'S your proof. Now, Multiply that by 10 for a unshackled A.I.
Multiply again by a thousand. That equals total economic devesataion from all the scanctions and lawsuits.

And again, back then, the geth WERE nothing but V.I.s. And the quarians did all they could to hide the possibility of the geth being sapiant, including trying to shut them down. The protests in those vids of Legions? That's the quarians trying to diffuse the situation before the Council wises up. The entire point was that the Council was in the dark about the problems.
And the Council pattently disagrees with A.I. Assuming control of an A.I. army for themselves would have been breaking their own laws with no way to suger-coat it and weesel out of it. They would be impeached and replaced, which no Council member worth his arrogance wants.

So WRONG. The scanctions agains the Alliance for a single shackled A.I. are proof that you make them, you get punsihed. "Harsh scanctions" is the verbatium of the Council's planned punishments. It's multiplied ALOT for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s. So NO, as I said, NOT headcannon at ALL. Especally since the existance of an event where scanctions were placed against a faction (Alliance) for an unchackled A.I with NO free will IS proof of claim. If they levy harsh sacntions against that, then the punishment must be FAR steeper for an entire race of unshackled A.I.s with complete free will. So, since I DO have an example that backs my point, that DIFFINITIVELY makes it NOT headcannon.

And the four are @DenyonSlayer, @tevix, @ChronoDragon (although his views on geth are a bit harsh, he will make valid points), and @Steelcan (same harsh views on synthetics, but does bring up valid points as well).
You have proven to them that YOU are unwilling to dispell the headcannon YOU use. They do NOT let headcannon slide. (I know from experence in my first days on the BSN that this is true) , and DO admit when they are wrong on something, which is more then you have done, so don't start with your prattling when you loop your headcannon around constantly.

Please direct me to where it is stated by the Quarians they feared the Council as opposed to simply fearing the synthetic threat itselt.  All you are doing is providing your opinion not canon.  An opinion that once again is not unreasonable but that is still just an opinion.

Lol, the Council represents the Asari, Turians and Salarians.  Who the f**k is going to impeach them if they decide they want an AI army for the Asari, Turians and Salarians, lol. But again, all we are going right now is playing the head cannon game.

The harsh sanctions against the Alliance for the unshackled AI is proof that the canon is the Alliance was punished for an unshackled AI.  It is evidence to suggest that had they been told about the Geth they may have punished them but that does not make what you say cannon because it didn't happen in the story. 

So 4 guys who vote quarian and you think that someone helps your point, lol.  If it didn't happen in the story it is head cannon period.  I refer to to the definition again.  The difference is I know I am just giving an opinion which is why I repeatedly tell you guys believe what you what.  We are bothing offering interpretations but only one of us is deluded in thinking that what they are providing is canon.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

I would, but @Rip504 already has done so, because @Rip already stated, Anyone that played ME1 would know that, to borrow @Rip's qoutes:

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian
THAT right there is complete proof that what I say does have backing. Therefore, it is CANNON. NOT headcannon. So your statement is the one that has no backing.

And if you played ME3, you would know that the leaders of their respecive governemts have executive power over the members of their races that go for Councilor. Like how Primarch Victus was able to pledge turian support without the actual support of the Citadel Council. Or did you forget when Shepard says "I'll bypass the Council and apeal directly to their leadership." ? And where the Turian Councilor directly tells you that the leaders of the governments ultimately decide what to do with their resources, and that if the government leaders unanimously agree, they can veto the Council's decisions? The Council only has it's power because it is backed by the three leading governments in the Galaxy. And they have the power to remove and replace their chosen Councilors as they see fit. Which they don't do unless there is no choice, either through unpopular vote, breaking of listed Citadel laws, or the death of said Councilor through natural & unnatural causes.
So AGAIN, dead wrong. NOT headcannon at all.

And LOL.  Did you NOT read that post? I said the Alliance A.I. was a SHACKLED A.I. As in no free will what-so-ever. Like EDI was before Joker removed the system locks.  And the point is, if that's the punishment for ONE SHACKLED A.I. what is the punishment for an ENTIRE RACE OF UN-SHAKLED A.I.s?
LOL, HOW did you miss that one? And if I remember correctly, Joker tells EDI in the Purgatory Bar that if the locals knew she was an Unshackled A.I., and one with Reaper-based intelligence, no less, they would "lynch her" on sight.

And they AGREE with my points, and they debate without being condesending like you, unless they have no choice because the other never STOPS being condesending.
And as I said, since harsh scanctions DID happen over a Shackled A.I. IN STORY, that makes the belief that Multiple unshackled A.I.s would be more harshly punished COMPLETE CANNON. So NO, not headcannon at ALL.

So sicnc, as already stated, there IS proof, your refute is completely wrong.

[remydat]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

What people like remy and myself keep hoping for are more objective arguments, not instinctive ones as I've detailed above. But most of the arguments are instinctive and do sound racist. As I've said, I've actually experienced a lot of discrimination in my life and I'm pretty well attuned to it. I can see when someone is acting instinctively rather than intellectually and/or emotionally. I'm able to make that distinction, and the people arguing against the geth do sound more than a little... well, racist.

But do we? Do I? As a staunch supporter of the quarian civilians, do I sound like a racist of fictional peoples?

Just something to chew over.

Here's something to Chew on: Why is that Quarian supporters (not you) will fight in this thread to their dying day that the Geth should be exterminated like some Roach infestation on a Greyhound bus, but will side with the African Americans in Real Life when the discussion of Slavery comes up?

I've brought this up before, but it is so true. Double Standards are not cool in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Yet the "Talimancers" will sa;jfklasjhfklsjfhsakljfhklasfqisuf!@!@!@!@!@ all day against the Geth. But get them on a street corner in New York, surrounded by African Americans discussing Slavery and they will agree that "the white man is keeping them down, so they can't get a job. And they deserve food stamps, section 8 funding, disability even though they aren't disabled."

Makes me sick.

That's easy.  All you have to do is premptively decide the Geth are not alive and thus you are not bound to consider whether killing them is wrong.  Of course, we will ignore the fact that arriving at this conclusion just so happens to allow you to avoid dealing with your f**k up and to keep the cheap labor.  No bias there.

Incidentally 300 years going, Slave Owners basically did the same thing.  When the question of whether that pesky statement in the constitution that said all men are created equal came up as some people argued well how can we enslave an entire race, the wonderly forefathers basically decided well that's because slaves were not really mean but chattel ie property and thus no subject to the protections of the constitution.  Of course, we will ignore the fact that arriving at this conclusion just so happens to allow to keep your cheap labor and sweet profits.

[DeinonSlayer]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

What people like remy and myself keep hoping for are more objective arguments, not instinctive ones as I've detailed above. But most of the arguments are instinctive and do sound racist. As I've said, I've actually experienced a lot of discrimination in my life and I'm pretty well attuned to it. I can see when someone is acting instinctively rather than intellectually and/or emotionally. I'm able to make that distinction, and the people arguing against the geth do sound more than a little... well, racist.

But do we? Do I? As a staunch supporter of the quarian civilians, do I sound like a racist of fictional peoples?

Just something to chew over.

Here's something to Chew on: Why is that Quarian supporters (not you) will fight in this thread to their dying day that the Geth should be exterminated like some Roach infestation on a Greyhound bus, but will side with the African Americans in Real Life when the discussion of Slavery comes up?

I've brought this up before, but it is so true. Double Standards are not cool in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Yet the "Talimancers" will sa;jfklasjhfklsjfhsakljfhklasfqisuf!@!@!@!@!@ all day against the Geth. But get them on a street corner in New York, surrounded by African Americans discussing Slavery and they will agree that "the white man is keeping them down, so they can't get a job. And they deserve food stamps, section 8 funding, disability even though they aren't disabled."

Makes me sick.

Seriously. It's like you haven't heard a word that's been said. What the Geth are physically made of is meaningless. It's their actions which shape our judgement of them. The difference here is who holds which side accountable for what, and who lets what slide.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 mars 2013 - 05:34 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Did you even play ME1?

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

Being mindful of Citadel Council laws and terrified of possible outcomes,pretty much covers that  the Quarians were indeed "terrified" of what the Citadel Council may do. As well as other potential consequences.

Tali states something along these very lines in ME1.

Or it just means that they are terrified of the possible consequences of the AI ie the Geth attacking them.  That is the point of the council laws.  Organics fear synthetics because they think synthetics will harm them.  So the Quarians become terried of possible consequences ie the Geth will harm them.

Once again, you can have any number of interpretations which is the point I keep trying to explain.  Furthermore being scared of what the Citadel may do is not proof that the Citadel will actually do it.  It just means you are scared of it.  I am scared of what my GF will do when I don't buy her a gift on her birthday.  That doesn't mean that what I fear will come to pass.

Silver keeps talking about their Economy collapsing, trade halting and all other kinds of crap that is basically just in his head.  There is no proof they will actually follow through with it  because their attack on the Geth means we don't actually see what would have happened.  Thus all we can do is speculate.

So yes I played ME1.  I am simply capable of reading comprehension beyond a Junior High level and understand statements can be interpreted any number of ways.  It's like people want to create their own definition of canon.  

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

And the Catalyst, which is a synthetic, does all thie because of fear that the two will never find peace. It perperturated the Cycles. It's masters, the Leviathans, were nothing like your template of organics and their fears. They gave the Catalyst free reign, unlimited resources, and unlimited time. And it attacked them first. So NO, your assertation that organics perpetuate the conflict is completely false, as proven by the Catalyst throwing the first stone against the Leviathans. Explain that.

And the quarians were afriad of Council reperemands. It WASN'T fear that the geth would harm them - it was fear the COUNCIL would. It's organics fearing other organics, Not organics fearing synthetics. You completely mixed it up.

And AGAIN, harsh scanctions for one shackled Alliance A.I.
It's BASIC LOGIC to think that harsher scanctions would be imposed on thousands of unshackled A.I.s.
It's not rocket science. The proof is the scanctions on the Alliance A.I. Which is proof that the scanctions are enacted against  even A.I.s that don't pose a threat. What about thousands that do? The fact that you are claiming it's headcannon when the proof that it ISN'T is RIGHT THERE is bloody unbelieveable.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[Iamjdr]

To bad white men didnt build black people they took them from there homes and families. The Geth were built by the quarians as labor units. I don't see you out There picketing for Loki mech rights. These two things are not comparable so why don't you stop trying to do so for risk of making yourselves sounds any more ridiculous.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 22 mars 2013 - 05:32 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Auld Wulf wrote...If you look at anything related to synthetics -- be it the Catalyst, Synthesis, the geth, the Reapers, or EDI,

To be fair three of those five things do suck in a big way.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...


Or it just means that they are terrified of the possible consequences of the AI ie the Geth attacking them.  That is the point of the council laws.  Organics fear synthetics because they think synthetics will harm them.  So the Quarians become terried of possible consequences ie the Geth will harm them.


So yes I played ME1.  I am simply capable of reading comprehension beyond a Junior High level and understand statements can be interpreted any number of ways.  It's like people want to create their own definition of canon.  

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

Words do have definitions as you keep trying to point out. Look up mindful,potential,and terrified. Listen to Tali as well.

Terrified of possible outcomes. Lol That is what it states.  It covers both. The decision the council may or may not reach is a possible outcome. In which it is directly stated that the Quarians are terrified of the possible outcomes. It covers it. Outcomes. Multiple,not single. As well as to stating the Quarians were indeed mindful of Citadel Law. Buying your GF a gift? lmao. They are close to or treading the line of breaking the law. It is safe to assume that a race that abides by Citadel law is worried,or terrified of the consequences of breaking these laws. Quarians were/are not criminals. As a whole.

You are saying the Quarians started it,the Geth are now justified. I strongly disagree.

The "monster" comment was more of a sarcastic joke by the way. Although it does hold real weight. Also the whole racist card holds no weight within my case. As I have repeatedly on multiple occasions pointed out that the Geth are a "people" and have been wronged. I just hold them accountable for theirs actions,just as I do for any other race. They(Geth) have shown on more then one occasion that they can become extremely hostile and threaten the peace of the entire galaxy. Under certain situations of course. The Quarians have never held this same threat.

You can not say the Quarians are responsible for the Geth,if we consider the Geth to be free,alive,and very capable of making their own decisions. Although one should learn from past mistakes and not repeat them. (Heretics-True Geth) Obviously everyone is capable of making mistakes and should be given a second chance. Yet we have the Mourning war,Heretics,ME3,and 300 years of mistrust between Organics and synthetics stemming from both sides. With the Geth killing a multitude of Organics.

The question is if you had to pick just one,which would it be. The Quarians as they pose little to no threat,while the Geth have shown and proven otherwise. The Geth are just as potentially dangerous as they are potentially peaceful. The Geth have threatened Galatic safety one more then one occasion. The Quarians have not,unless you hold them accountable for the Geth. In which case the Geth would hold no rights as you are holding the Quarians accountable for their actions. Meaning you consider the Geth to be Quarian property and not a free thinking people. The Synthetic-Organic conflict has been around for 300 years. Peaceful Geth allies have existed for less then a year.

Modifié par Rip504, 22 mars 2013 - 05:55 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

I would, but @Rip504 already has done so, because @Rip already stated, Anyone that played ME1 would know that, to borrow @Rip's qoutes:

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian
THAT right there is complete proof that what I say does have backing. Therefore, it is CANNON. NOT headcannon. So your statement is the one that has no backing.

And if you played ME3, you would know that the leaders of their respecive governemts have executive power over the members of their races that go for Councilor. Like how Primarch Victus was able to pledge turian support without the actual support of the Citadel Council. Or did you forget when Shepard says "I'll bypass the Council and apeal directly to their leadership." ? And where the Turian Councilor directly tells you that the leaders of the governments ultimately decide what to do with their resources, and that if the government leaders unanimously agree, they can veto the Council's decisions? The Council only has it's power because it is backed by the three leading governments in the Galaxy. And they have the power to remove and replace their chosen Councilors as they see fit. Which they don't do unless there is no choice, either through unpopular vote, breaking of listed Citadel laws, or the death of said Councilor through natural & unnatural causes.
So AGAIN, dead wrong. NOT headcannon at all.

And LOL.  Did you NOT read that post? I said the Alliance A.I. was a SHACKLED A.I. As in no free will what-so-ever. Like EDI was before Joker removed the system locks.  And the point is, if that's the punishment for ONE SHACKLED A.I. what is the punishment for an ENTIRE RACE OF UN-SHAKLED A.I.s?
LOL, HOW did you miss that one? And if I remember correctly, Joker tells EDI in the Purgatory Bar that if the locals knew she was an Unshackled A.I., and one with Reaper-based intelligence, no less, they would "lynch her" on sight.

And they AGREE with my points, and they debate without being condesending like you, unless they have no choice because the other never STOPS being condesending.
And as I said, since harsh scanctions DID happen over a Shackled A.I. IN STORY, that makes the belief that Multiple unshackled A.I.s would be more harshly punished COMPLETE CANNON. So NO, not headcannon at ALL.

So sicnc, as already stated, there IS proof, your refute is completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

I never played ME1, ME2 or ME3 where I got to see the Quarians tell the Council and then get punished with economic collapse, restricted trade and the descent into poverty of the middle class and all the other stuff you claimed.  When they release a DLC called Mass Effect Economic Collapse then let me know and I will pick it it up.  Until then you are offering your opinion of what you think would have happened about an event that NEVER OCCURRED in the story and hence cannot be canon.

And you completely missed the point I was making about the Council.  No one said the Council would be acting against the wishes of their respective races.  The three primary races in the game are Asari, Turian and Salarian.  They hold the power on the Council and by exentsion the races they represent have an interest in maintaining that power.  It is entirely possible that in this hypothetical story that I repeat NEVER OCCURRED that those Council Members go investigate the Geth and decide that there are too many Geth to safely try and disable with risking the lives of their members.  Hence instead of the DLC Mass Effect Economic Collapse we get Mass Effect Detente as the Council decides they can't destroy the Geth safely.  Furthermore, given how power hungry they are, they may in this event that NEVER OCCURRED go investigate and decide wow, My Asari, Turian and Salarian people could use these AI and so they ask the Geth to come along and they take them back to their worlds and keep them for themselves and we get DLC Mass Effect Quarians Got Played.  Point is, any f**king thing could have happened because this event NEVER OCCURRED and we don't know what would happen hence claiming you stating canon is categorically false.  You are taking canon for other stories and then speculation on what you think would happen.  It is perfectly fine if you do that but calling that canon shows complete ignorance of the term.

[Xilizhra]

The question is if you had to pick just one,which would it be. The Quarians as they pose little to no threat,while the Geth have shown and proven otherwise. The Geth are just as potentially dangerous as they are potentially peaceful. The Geth have threatened Galatic safety one more then one occasion. The Quarians have not,unless you hold them accountable for the Geth. In which case the Geth would hold no rights as you are holding the Quarians accountable for their actions. Meaning you consider the Geth to be Quarian property and not a free thinking people.

I blame the quarians for provoking the geth, who were themselves a race in its infancy; I'm disinclined to truly blame them for their actions there, for not understanding that the quarians didn't have their own consensus thing going.

[DeinonSlayer]

Iamjdr wrote...

To bad white men didnt build black people they took them from there homes and families. The Geth were built by the quarians as labor units. I don't see you out There picketing for Loki mech rights. These two things are not comparable so why don't you stop trying to do so for risk of making yourselves sounds any more ridiculous.

It's easy enough for people to shut up debate in real life by spewing accusations of some -ism or -phobia at their detractors. The thing is, between false incidents staged for personal gain and relentless trolling, we hear so much of it these days that most people blow the accusation off as the noise it is - the word itself is devalued, which means that REAL incidents of racism et al get lost in the noise.

But, this is getting way off topic. Nothing good has come of trying to invoke real-life comparisons - it is, frankly, disrespectful to the real people who went through it. The situations invoked often barely relate, because we're talking about a scenario lifted from Battlestar Galactica, and not slavery in the US and elsewhere, the second World War, Rwanda, or anything else. Let's get off the bandwagon of lamenting the backwards attitudes we project on each other in lieu of real discussion.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

To bad white men didnt build black people they took them from there homes and families. The Geth were built by the quarians as labor units. I don't see you out There picketing for Loki mech rights. These two things are not comparable so why don't you stop trying to do so for risk of making yourselves sounds any more ridiculous.

No one compared their origins.  What was compared was how the Quarians chose to define the Geth as not alive because it was beneficial for them to do so.

Likewise, slave owners defined slaves as chattel and not men so that the protections provided under the constitution to men could be denied slaves because chattel was considered property just like a Loki Mech is property.

If you want to ignore the obvious parrallel between the Quarians deciding the Geth were basically property and slave owners defining people as property and pretend the comparison was regarding their origins then so be it.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

It's easy enough for people to shut up debate in real life by spewing accusations of some -ism or -phobia at their detractors. The thing is, between false incidents staged for personal gain and relentless trolling, we hear so much of it these days that most people blow the accusation off as the noise it is - the word itself is devalued, which means that REAL incidents of racism et al get lost in the noise.

But, this is getting way off topic. Nothing good has come of trying to invoke real-life comparisons - it is, frankly, disrespectful to the real people who went through it. The situations invoked often barely relate, because we're talking about a scenario lifted from Battlestar Galactica, and not slavery in the US and elsewhere, the second World War, Rwanda, or anything else. Let's get off the bandwagon of lamenting the backwards attitudes we project on each other in lieu of real discussion.

It is easier still to misrepresent what was being compared and to call people with different beliefs trolls instead of trying to actually debate the point they were making.  

There is nothing off topic about comparing the human slaves denied their status as men and defined as property to the geth who were denied their status as sentient being so they could be destroyed like property.  That is perfectly on topic because these stories are written by humans who grew up in our society and obviously were influenced by our society in order to create the themes and stories they write about.

If you don't like applying real life scenarios to fiction as a means to explore the themes that fiction is meant to cover then don't but trying to tell someone else they should not is where you overstep.  That is not your call to make. That is for each individual to decide for themselves.