4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Only-Twin]

All I have seen the past few pages is "IT'S NOT WRITTEN DOWN IT'S NOT CANON!"

[DeinonSlayer]

When the topic degrades into people casting accusations of racism back and forth, nothing productive can come of the discussion. That's all I'm saying.

[Iamjdr]

The Geth WERE property! The quarians freakin Built them... to be Labor units just like Loki mechs are made for security. So if you wanna ignore the obvious differences between the two then go ahead. There origins are the reason why they can't be compared, but of course thats the part you "arnt comparing"

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The probs Silver is that all of the people you've mentioned are vehemently outspoken in regards to synthetics to the point where, if we had synthetics in reality, they'd be considered bigoted and classified as neo-luddites. If you look at anything related to synthetics -- be it the Catalyst, Synthesis, the geth, the Reapers, or EDI, then you'll note that they are biased in a way that defies logic and objectivity. And that sets off alarm bells in my mind and makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Unfortunately, in the years I've lived I've been exposed to discrimination by people who react instinctively to things without sympathy. The instinct is to act within the clique and to do whatever the rest of your social group is doing, even if that is unethical. I'm seeing that kind of instinctive response here. We're not actually seeing a lot of truly logical or objective arguments from you or the others, and that's why remy is having so much ease pointing out the flaws of your arguments. You're not intellectually or emotionally passionate about this issue, you're reacting instinctively. You're being overprotective of the quarians because of familiarity, and because that's what your clique is doing.

If a person has an unbiased argument, then often they can be magnanimous. As I've pointed out in the past, I'm a quarian civilians supporter because I don't believe that all quarians are evil (though since the Morning War when they stood with the geth, it does appear like none of the civilians have the cojones to stand up to the military any more, but that still doesn't make them evil). I can magnanimously support the civilians because I respect what they've done and emotionally I can sympathise with their position.

Essentially, my problem is this.

My argument: Why kill?
The argument of the opposition: RARGH SYNTHETICS MUST ALL DIE BECAUSE HORRIBLE DEMONS.

And understanding instinctive responses, it's easy to understand why someone would make that argument, as I explained in my prior post. But that doesn't make it an intellectual argument, it's more of a kneejerk reaction instead. If there was more of a magnanimous attitude shown towards synthetics then I might believe that there are intellectual arguments involved. But I've been around the forums enough to be familiar with the "regular suspects."

And the constant degrading arguments regarding synthetics make this seem more like fantastic racism -- in other words, being racist against a species or peoples that you simply just instinctively don't like in a fictional work. But that doesn't involve intellectuality in any way. One example of this is the Morning War. The kneejerk response is to push the notion that the quarians were fighting the geth in a black and white war. Yet in the consensus, we see that it's actually the quarian civilians and the geth fighting the military. In fact, the quarian civilians take up arms to protect the geth before the geth take up arms to protect themselves.

And yet we get these kneejerk responses. Another argument is that the geth were responsible for all of the death in the Morning War. That's another instinctive response borne of the desire to protect the quarians. There is no empirical evidence that this is even remotely true, and if the consensus is to be believed, the military did a fair bit of killing. So, the opposing viewpoint can be posed that possibly the quarian military did most of the killing of civilians after the civilian uprising. But to the mind of someone acting instinctive and biased towards fantastic racism, that's not even a conceivable idea, because the geth must be evil demons, and the quarians must be poor little lambs.

Again, this is to do with familiar versus unfamiliar.

What people like remy and myself keep hoping for are more objective arguments, not instinctive ones as I've detailed above. But most of the arguments are instinctive and do sound racist. As I've said, I've actually experienced a lot of discrimination in my life and I'm pretty well attuned to it. I can see when someone is acting instinctively rather than intellectually and/or emotionally. I'm able to make that distinction, and the people arguing against the geth do sound more than a little... well, racist.

But do we? Do I? As a staunch supporter of the quarian civilians, do I sound like a racist of fictional peoples?

Just something to chew over.

But that wouldn't be by outward appearacne. Look at EDI. Unlike the geth's previous behaiveior of being secertive, isolationist, and utterly detached from others, EDI is outgoing, questioning, and constantly communicating her thoughts and opinions to other organisc for stimulis on subjects.
If the geth were all like her, the geth would have taken the risk and reached out to the galaxy to try and change the galactic opinion of them. Instead, they let the hate fester and grow. And then, refused to take responcibility for the Heretcis and their rampage, untill it was a threat to them as well. A synthetic is excusible foor that, but not organics (Cerberus and the Alliance?). Part of being alive is owning that you made mistakes and learning from them. The geth never do. They never take responcibility for the Heretics until it's a direct threat to their own safety.
Only Legion - an isolated geth, basically a renagade among them - ever feels any guilt for the choices the geth made in the war, or remorse that the geth sided with the Reapers, even going as  far as hinting that Legion would have rather faced death then die. He always says that "the geth wished to live" He NEVER says "we wished to live." Saying things like "evidently, that is an acceptible choice," indicating it doens't agree with the geth's choices at all, and when Shepard says "the geth are better then this," Legion responds with "...No. Based on empirical evidence.... They are not." 
THEY are not. Not "We are not." Actual proof that Legion does not agree with what the geth have done, and would rather they all have died then serve the Reapers. And I wish to GOD that the devs had expanded on that.

And I am not being overprotective of them because they look like me. I'm protective of the krogan and their rights. Have been since ME1, well before the Heretic split was EVER part of this, and they look nothing like humand. Outward appearance has no bearing on this. I sympathise with them here because they got Shafted by their own fear of Council law, and became nomads wondering around for 300 years. And guess what, buddy?
I SYMPATHISE WITH THE GETH'S POSITION TOO. I get why they folded in desperation. I get why they stayed isolated after their harsh experances with organics. I simply say that while the quarians openly own the fact that they made mistakes, I have never seen the geth do. This has and always was about moral debate. So NO, it has NOTHING to do with outward appearance, and the fact that you keep bringing it up as a prerequsite to converse is racist in itself. YOU are the only one that brings it up in these conversations, notice that? Stop trying to pshycoanilyze everyone and trying to find some underlying fault in every single person that somehow leads back to racisim. You are making up things in your head. You are the only one in denial here.

And that problem is invaladated by the Catalyst, which cast the first stone against it's creators. The Leviathans gave it unlimited time, resources, and free reign. And it turned on them without even giving a reason to them for what it did. They had no clue what they did to provoke the Catalyst.

Instinctive responces NEVER had anything to do with it, and because you have headcannoned yourself into thinking it does, you have become guilty of what you accuse everyone else of doing, bu instinctively rushing to the aid of synthetics withoyt considering, or even looking at the other side. You are what you claim to hate: A prejudiced debator that instinctively chooses one side over the other. You do NOT understand instinctive responces, and have become enslaved to your own in the process. You basically indoctrinated yourself with your own headcannon.

The only one that has been degrading to others is you, who istintly uses ad nausium and Godwin in your posts when it isn't presant anywhere else. Compairing it to rasisim when it's always been about morals and justifications.

And as I repeatedly said, those images in the geth server take place before the Morning War, and are completely seperate from any and all death tolls caused by the geth in the war. And AGAIN, one death in a bombing for a door breach, meaning that by all likelyhood, that death you are using was completely accidental. And one possiblly unintentional death, and one capture, are NOT sufficant sample sizes to judge an entire race of 2.1 billion.  It would be like saying that every turian is like Garrus, when in truth Garrus is the biggest anomoly of turian culture in existance. Judging an entire race on what they did in war, using two small events that take place before the war, is prejidiced and biased in such high levels that cannot even be described. And AGAIN, if it had been a large portion of the quarians, then that sympathy would not have been so utterly buried when the geth turned against them. The protesters lost all sympathy when the geth attacked and failed to discriminate from civilian and soldier.
And again, those vids are explisitly described by Legion himself as taking place before the Morning War. So if you really believe that at least 85% (over 1.7 billion) of the quarians died out by infighting before the war ever took place, then your theroy has more holes the swiss cheese. The protests were before the War, so none of the casualties in the War and the protests are linked what-so-ever. And the protesters were NOT killed, just outnumbered. Their views shrunk, the people giving up on the belief until there wasn't a soul left that thought to give sympathy to the geth. And the quarian military wasn't that large, given how they fell against the geth retaliation. The thought that a military force that likely didn't number past a million could take on 2 billion people and several million geth is beyond absurad. It's like going against Husks and Maruders with brass knuckels. Do you even THINK about this stuff before you type?

And NO ONE here was demonizing the geth. We were asking, was why people like you prejudicedly give them a free pass on taking the responcibilities that other living beings must take for their actions because of them being synthetics.

It has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with fimilar vs unfimilar, and accusing it of such is biased, prejudiced, and racist in itself. You and remydat are the most prejudiced, closed-minded, biased people here, and no one was bringing outward appearace into this because that WOULD have been racist to suggest. And here YOU are suggesting it.
This debate was, has, and always will be, about the justifications, morals, honesty, and valadity of their choices and beleifs. Outward appearance has NO bearing on any of the debate. And by constantly advocating racisim, when no one else has brought it up but you... well, what does that make YOU?

"Just something to chew on."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[silverexile17s]

Iamjdr wrote...

The Geth WERE property! The quarians freakin Built them... to be Labor units just like Loki mechs are made for security. So if you wanna ignore the obvious differences between the two then go ahead. There origins are the reason why they can't be compared, but of course thats the part you "arnt comparing"

Indeed. They built them, so they don't match with what anyone at the time considered "alive." Which is why no one believed that they WERE sapiant till the failed attack on them. And since then the quarians have completely accepted that the geth are living beings. Some will forgive them (Koris), others are still afraid of them (Raan), others still see no reason to believe they see organics as any form of equal (Gerrel). Those that still consider the geth nothing but machines (Xen) are in the minority among the quarians.

And when the Reapers came, like so many species, the quarians had to put their immediate needs and concerns above the geth, just as any organic would do against other organic beings, like Wrex putting his people's need ahead of the turians. It isn organic/synthetic conflict spicific. It's the nature of living beings in general. In fact, people can say the geth put their own needs ahead of others by siding with the Reapers, ironicly doing to the galaxy what the quarians did to them. Escliation. People can argue about motivations till their blue in the face, but no one (that isn't headcannon-ing) can deny that nither race was completely just, nor without sound reasoning.
The difference was the scale. The quarians screwed the geth to ensure conformation of  their future. The geth screwed everybody in the galaxy for possible conformation of their future. (Although one can argue on blind faith and hope sustaining people into believeing that all will be well, but that's another topic here)
Tali admits that she argued for peace, but that no one else agreed but Koris. Gerrel doesn't trust a word the geth say, advocating the attack on the Citadel as proof that the geth are threats. Xen doesn't see them as living beings with natural rights, and doesn't believe they even have a real say. Raan doesn't see how peace is even possible to consider with all the bad blood between both factions.
Likewise, Legion admits that it's ashamed at the geth's choice and repeatedly suggests that he would rather have let them all die as "themselves." Rather the sacrifice their independance for the Reaper's "gifts." It shows that it is indeed patently dissipointed in what the geth became, and fights to free them, unwilling to abandon Hope for his people. A sentiment VERY indicitive of a living being.

So, yes. Moral choices and admitted mistakes abound. The thing to note right here and right now is that THIS moment, for the first time, courtisy of Legion, there are signs that the geth are changing. The Geth V.I. is representation of how the geth were before: cold, and uncaring of anyone's problems. They regret causing death, but will not regreat causing more to meet their ends. Legion's positive encounters finally give new perspective that slowly start to change the geth's fundimental beliefs that perhaps isolating themselves was a mistake.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 06:30 .

[Rip504]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Terrified of possible outcomes. Lol That is what it states.  It covers both. The decision the council may or may not reach is a possible outcome. In which it is directly stated that the Quarians are terrified of the possible outcomes. It covers it. Outcomes. Multiple,not single. As well as to stating the Quarians were indeed mindful of Citadel Law. Buying your GF a gift? lmao. They are close to or treading the line of breaking the law. It is safe to assume that a race that abides by Citadel law is worried,or terrified of the consequences of breaking these laws. Quarians were/are not criminals. As a whole.

You are saying the Quarians started it,the Geth are now justified. I strongly disagree.

The "monster" comment was more of a sarcastic joke by the way. Although it does hold real weight. Also the whole racist card holds no weight within my case. As I have repeatedly on multiple occasions pointed out that the Geth are a "people" and have been wronged. I just hold them accountable for theirs actions,just as I do for any other race. They(Geth) have shown on more then one occasion that they can become extremely hostile and threaten the peace of the entire galaxy. Under certain situations of course. The Quarians have never held this same threat.

You can not say the Quarians are responsible for the Geth,if we consider the Geth to be free,alive,and very capable of making their own decisions. Although one should learn from past mistakes and not repeat them. (Heretics-True Geth) Obviously everyone is capable of making mistakes and should be given a second chance. Yet we have the Mourning war,Heretics,ME3,and 300 years of mistrust between Organics and synthetics stemming from both sides. With the Geth killing a multitude of Organics.

The question is if you had to pick just one,which would it be. The Quarians as they pose little to no threat,while the
Geth have shown and proven otherwise. The Geth are just as potentially dangerous as they are potentially peaceful. The Geth have threatened Galatic safety one more then one occasion. The Quarians have not,unless you hold them accountable for the Geth. In which case the Geth would hold no rights as you are holding the Quarians accountable for their actions. Meaning you consider the Geth to be Quarian property and not a free thinking people. The Synthetic-Organic conflict has been around for 300 years. Peaceful Geth allies have existed for less then a year.

I blame the quarians for provoking the geth, who were themselves a race in its infancy; I'm disinclined to truly blame them for their actions there, for not understanding that the quarians didn't have their own consensus thing going.

Cool,and acceptable. What about for the next 300 years? In which Geth killed organics and sided with the Reapers twice. While making no attempt at peace or to differentiate Heretics from True Geth. As Legion did not consider them so much different until the Loyalty mission in ME2. Do you also hold the Quarians responsible for all of these choices as well? Reaper Code/Virus came only after the Geth willingly chose to join the Reapers.

Modifié par Rip504, 22 mars 2013 - 06:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Cool,and acceptable. What about for the next 300 years? In which Geth killed organics and sided with the Reapers twice. While making no attempt at peace or to differentiate Heretics from True Geth. As Legion did not consider them so much different until the Loyalty mission in ME2. Do you also hold the Quarians responsible for all of these choices as well?

None of it is relevant because I make peace anyway. Also, none of it is as bad as what the quarians tried to do to them a second time, with the possible exception of siding with the Reapers, which only happened after their collective intelligence had taken a major hit. But even that doesn't matter that much, because the only way this scenario would work with my Shepard is her trying to make peace and having Gerrel refuse to listen; if that's the case, she won't kill Legion just to stop the upload.

In any case, killing the geth just reinforces the idea that you can kill off synthetics who inconvenience you, whereas no one will make similar clauses for doing the same to other organic races in the current political environment; killing all the quarians stands less of a chance of being a bad precedent.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 mars 2013 - 06:30 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And the Catalyst, which is a synthetic, does all thie because of fear that the two will never find peace. It perperturated the Cycles. It's masters, the Leviathans, were nothing like your template of organics and their fears. They gave the Catalyst free reign, unlimited resources, and unlimited time. And it attacked them first. So NO, your assertation that organics perpetuate the conflict is completely false, as proven by the Catalyst throwing the first stone against the Leviathans. Explain that.

And the quarians were afriad of Council reperemands. It WASN'T fear that the geth would harm them - it was fear the COUNCIL would. It's organics fearing other organics, Not organics fearing synthetics. You completely mixed it up.

And AGAIN, harsh scanctions for one shackled Alliance A.I.
It's BASIC LOGIC to think that harsher scanctions would be imposed on thousands of unshackled A.I.s.
It's not rocket science. The proof is the scanctions on the Alliance A.I. Which is proof that the scanctions are enacted against  even A.I.s that don't pose a threat. What about thousands that do? The fact that you are claiming it's headcannon when the proof that it ISN'T is RIGHT THERE is bloody unbelieveable.

The Catalyst exists outisde the cyle though.  The conflict is between the lesser organics and the synthetics they create.  The Leviathans entralled all the lesser organic races.  They feared that the lesser organics conflict with synthetics would deny them tribute.  So ignoring the examples they witnessed of orgnanic and synthetics fighting and presuming that since they were perfect beings they would not fall victim to what those lesser synethtics fell victim too they created the Catalyst.  The Catalyst was essentially infected with the same arrogance and hubris as their Levithan matters.  Even after the Reapers harvested damn near all of them, the dude still denies that they made a mistake.  He says point blank that they didn't make a mistake because the Reapers did what they intended it to do ie find a solution.  How delusional do you have to be to create somthing that Harvests your own species and still be like yep that's what I created them to do.

No one denied your theory was logical.  In fact I went out of my way to say that it was REASONABLE.  I denied it was canon because it can't be since it NEVER HAPPENED in the book.  Do you even read my words?  For like the hundrendth time you are free to have an opinion, your opinion may be reasonable but it is not canon because it NEVER HAPPENED.  You do not work for Bioware.  You are not a writer.  You opinions no matter how reasonable are not cannon unless they are in the game.

And once again, Anderson and Saren took on a crappy shackled AI or something.  I don't even remember.  The point is two people defeated whatever the hell it was they were after.  However, just like it was too late for the Quarians, if the council were to go to Rannoch in this story that is not in the game, they may be smarter than the dumb a** Quarians and conclude this ARMY OF GETH is best handled by not antagonizing them because trying to stop them if they rebel as the Quarians learned the hard way is going to take more than just two d**n people.  Just like how after the billion dead Quarians the Council did nothing.  The only reason the Quarians tried to kill the Geth is because they f**king miscalculated.  They thought they could do it.  There is no gurantee that the 3 Council races with Salarians and their analytical minds will not run the numbers and be like "hell f**king no, trying to kill these dudes will result in a sh*t ton of dead people if these dudes rebel"  So you are assuming the Council will misculate like the Quarians. 

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 06:44 .

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Guys, please just quote the last post to which you're responding. Quote pyramids really suck.

I've asked for this 10 pages ago...nothing changed.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Ryzaki wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Guys, please just quote the last post to which you're responding. Quote pyramids really suck.

I've asked for this 10 pages ago...nothing changed.

But dont pyramids make things more dramatic and epix and detailed????

Lol jk /sarcasm

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ryzaki wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Guys, please just quote the last post to which you're responding. Quote pyramids really suck.

I've asked for this 10 pages ago...nothing changed.

The cycle cannot be stopped.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

The Geth WERE property! The quarians freakin Built them... to be Labor units just like Loki mechs are made for security. So if you wanna ignore the obvious differences between the two then go ahead. There origins are the reason why they can't be compared, but of course thats the part you "arnt comparing"

But legally so were slaves.  You are making a distinction that does not matter.  Legally the Geth were property.  Legally slaves were propety.  And do you know how silly it is to say they were built to be Labor units as if slaves were not Labor units.  In fact, what about the slaves that were born into slavery?  From the moment of their birth they were defined as property end of story?  

Better yet, if a Geth existed at the same time as a slave, who do you think the slave owner values more?  The answer the Geth because it cost more to built and it is likely more productive.  That is how f**ked up slavery was.  They were property.  A slave owner had all sorts of other property he potentially valued more than an individual slave.

So not sure what your beef is here.  If you don't want to talk about it then don't but if you continue to respond on this topic and act like from the mindset of most slave owners a slave was anything more than just a labor unit then you are kidding yourself.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I would, but @Rip504 already has done so, because @Rip already stated, Anyone that played ME1 would know that, to borrow @Rip's qoutes:

"However, when the geth gradually became sentient, the quarians became terrified of possible consequences"

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence" masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian
THAT right there is complete proof that what I say does have backing. Therefore, it is CANNON. NOT headcannon. So your statement is the one that has no backing.

And if you played ME3, you would know that the leaders of their respecive governemts have executive power over the members of their races that go for Councilor. Like how Primarch Victus was able to pledge turian support without the actual support of the Citadel Council. Or did you forget when Shepard says "I'll bypass the Council and apeal directly to their leadership." ? And where the Turian Councilor directly tells you that the leaders of the governments ultimately decide what to do with their resources, and that if the government leaders unanimously agree, they can veto the Council's decisions? The Council only has it's power because it is backed by the three leading governments in the Galaxy. And they have the power to remove and replace their chosen Councilors as they see fit. Which they don't do unless there is no choice, either through unpopular vote, breaking of listed Citadel laws, or the death of said Councilor through natural & unnatural causes.
So AGAIN, dead wrong. NOT headcannon at all.

And LOL.  Did you NOT read that post? I said the Alliance A.I. was a SHACKLED A.I. As in no free will what-so-ever. Like EDI was before Joker removed the system locks.  And the point is, if that's the punishment for ONE SHACKLED A.I. what is the punishment for an ENTIRE RACE OF UN-SHAKLED A.I.s?
LOL, HOW did you miss that one? And if I remember correctly, Joker tells EDI in the Purgatory Bar that if the locals knew she was an Unshackled A.I., and one with Reaper-based intelligence, no less, they would "lynch her" on sight.

And they AGREE with my points, and they debate without being condesending like you, unless they have no choice because the other never STOPS being condesending.
And as I said, since harsh scanctions DID happen over a Shackled A.I. IN STORY, that makes the belief that Multiple unshackled A.I.s would be more harshly punished COMPLETE CANNON. So NO, not headcannon at ALL.

So sicnc, as already stated, there IS proof, your refute is completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia..../Canon_(fiction)

I never played ME1, ME2 or ME3 where I got to see the Quarians tell the Council and then get punished with economic collapse, restricted trade and the descent into poverty of the middle class and all the other stuff you claimed.  When they release a DLC called Mass Effect Economic Collapse then let me know and I will pick it it up.  Until then you are offering your opinion of what you think would have happened about an event that NEVER OCCURRED in the story and hence cannot be canon.

And you completely missed the point I was making about the Council.  No one said the Council would be acting against the wishes of their respective races.  The three primary races in the game are Asari, Turian and Salarian.  They hold the power on the Council and by exentsion the races they represent have an interest in maintaining that power.  It is entirely possible that in this hypothetical story that I repeat NEVER OCCURRED that those Council Members go investigate the Geth and decide that there are too many Geth to safely try and disable with risking the lives of their members.  Hence instead of the DLC Mass Effect Economic Collapse we get Mass Effect Detente as the Council decides they can't destroy the Geth safely.  Furthermore, given how power hungry they are, they may in this event that NEVER OCCURRED go investigate and decide wow, My Asari, Turian and Salarian people could use these AI and so they ask the Geth to come along and they take them back to their worlds and keep them for themselves and we get DLC Mass Effect Quarians Got Played.  Point is, any f**king thing could have happened because this event NEVER OCCURRED and we don't know what would happen hence claiming you stating canon is categorically false.  You are taking canon for other stories and then speculation on what you think would happen.  It is perfectly fine if you do that but calling that canon shows complete ignorance of the term.

Stop using that, since it's baltently WRONG.
And so, in other words, you'd need to steal a car and be punished for it before you realized it's worse then the punishment for stealing a candy bar?
If the Council is willing to impose harsh scanctions on a single shackled A.I., then it's base logic to assume that the punishment is worse for multiple unshackled A.I.s. It's like how you get a few days in county jail for stealing a candy bar, and then get five years in state prison for setaling a car. Worse crime, worse punishment.
It's not rocket science, it's a fairly simple premise, and the fact that it takes more then ten pages for you to get something SO SIMPLE as "worse crime, worse punishment" is ridiculous.

And again, there WAS a race of A.I. on the Citadel was was completely willing to be full members of the Citadel Races, just like the geth.... and the Council killed them on sight. EDI's been usefull to the war effort, saved thousands of lives, and can be conidered a war hero and massive war asset against the Reapers. But according to Joker, that means nothing to the Council: if they find out she's an A.I., they "lynch" her. No regard to usefullness or future power. She's an A.I., so she has to die. And because the geth already resised several attempts to reprogram them by the people that made their prigramming, the Council isn't going to risk tampering with what even the creator couldn't fix. If you want a fan in the cealing, and the electricion can't find a way to do it without a problem, are YOU going to try and do it yourself and likely be fried?
If the experts on A.I.s can't reprogram their own programming, what makes you think the Council would ever believe it a possibility.
This, PLUS the law that unshakled  A.I.s are ilegal and a danger and must be terminated on sight, Is COMPLETE proof that the Council would NEVER have considered taking the geth as their own, or that they would have held back in attacking them had they been aware of their possible sapicance.
So in truth, the only one displaying ignorance on the term is you.

[Iamjdr]

Remydat your seriously still trying to argue that the Geth are black slaves that need to be freed...From there white Quarian oppressors? That's what your running with? Okay well your a little late martin Cause they freed themselves, murdered everyone on the planet and took it over 300 years ago.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Iamjdr wrote...

Remydat your seriously still trying to argue that the Geth are black slaves that need to be freed...From there white Quarian oppressors? That's what your running with? Okay well your a little late martin Cause they freed themselves, murdered everyone on the planet and took it over 300 years ago.

The bomb throwing revolutionary in me admires their incredible level of overkill.

The reasonable person in me is horrified at their incredible level of overkill.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Stop using that, since it's baltently WRONG.
And so, in other words, you'd need to steal a car and be punished for it before you realized it's worse then the punishment for stealing a candy bar?
If the Council is willing to impose harsh scanctions on a single shackled A.I., then it's base logic to assume that the punishment is worse for multiple unshackled A.I.s. It's like how you get a few days in county jail for stealing a candy bar, and then get five years in state prison for setaling a car. Worse crime, worse punishment.
It's not rocket science, it's a fairly simple premise, and the fact that it takes more then ten pages for you to get something SO SIMPLE as "worse crime, worse punishment" is ridiculous.

And again, there WAS a race of A.I. on the Citadel was was completely willing to be full members of the Citadel Races, just like the geth.... and the Council killed them on sight. EDI's been usefull to the war effort, saved thousands of lives, and can be conidered a war hero and massive war asset against the Reapers. But according to Joker, that means nothing to the Council: if they find out she's an A.I., they "lynch" her. No regard to usefullness or future power. She's an A.I., so she has to die. And because the geth already resised several attempts to reprogram them by the people that made their prigramming, the Council isn't going to risk tampering with what even the creator couldn't fix. If you want a fan in the cealing, and the electricion can't find a way to do it without a problem, are YOU going to try and do it yourself and likely be fried?
If the experts on A.I.s can't reprogram their own programming, what makes you think the Council would ever believe it a possibility.
This, PLUS the law that unshakled  A.I.s are ilegal and a danger and must be terminated on sight, Is COMPLETE proof that the Council would NEVER have considered taking the geth as their own, or that they would have held back in attacking them had they been aware of their possible sapicance.
So in truth, the only one displaying ignorance on the term is you.

EDI = Single AI  that can be killed fast enough that you can watch the premiere of Blasto 7 same day.

Geth = Army of AI that wiped out a billion people,

Do you get it now.  The Council can be harsh when the threat is a single AI.  A quick phone call to any half wit Salarian scientist and the dude would be like WTF, no we are not taking them on when they pose no threat right now. 

And I never said anything about reprograming.  I was talking about playing nice while they still have respect for organic life.  Remember they actually liked their creators initially.  They actually were happy to serve.  It is the height of stupidity to go to war with what is right now a peaceful army that loves organics.  The Quarian's mistake was in thinking the Council was just as stupid as they are.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And the Catalyst, which is a synthetic, does all thie because of fear that the two will never find peace. It perperturated the Cycles. It's masters, the Leviathans, were nothing like your template of organics and their fears. They gave the Catalyst free reign, unlimited resources, and unlimited time. And it attacked them first. So NO, your assertation that organics perpetuate the conflict is completely false, as proven by the Catalyst throwing the first stone against the Leviathans. Explain that.

And the quarians were afriad of Council reperemands. It WASN'T fear that the geth would harm them - it was fear the COUNCIL would. It's organics fearing other organics, Not organics fearing synthetics. You completely mixed it up.

And AGAIN, harsh scanctions for one shackled Alliance A.I.
It's BASIC LOGIC to think that harsher scanctions would be imposed on thousands of unshackled A.I.s.
It's not rocket science. The proof is the scanctions on the Alliance A.I. Which is proof that the scanctions are enacted against  even A.I.s that don't pose a threat. What about thousands that do? The fact that you are claiming it's headcannon when the proof that it ISN'T is RIGHT THERE is bloody unbelieveable.

The Catalyst exists outisde the cyle though.  The conflict is between the lesser organics and the synthetics they create.  The Leviathans entralled all the lesser organic races.  They feared that the lesser organics conflict with synthetics would deny them tribute.  So ignoring the examples they witnessed of orgnanic and synthetics fighting and presuming that since they were perfect beings they would not fall victim to what those lesser synethtics fell victim too they created the Catalyst.  The Catalyst was essentially infected with the same arrogance and hubris as their Levithan matters.  Even after the Reapers harvested damn near all of them, the dude still denies that they made a mistake.  He says point blank that they didn't make a mistake because the Reapers did what they intended it to do ie find a solution.  How delusional do you have to be to create somthing that Harvests your own species and still be like yep that's what I created them to do.

No one denied your theory was logical.  In fact I went out of my way to say that it was REASONABLE.  I denied it was canon because it can't be since it NEVER HAPPENED in the book.  Do you even read my words?  For like the hundrendth time you are free to have an opinion, your opinion may be reasonable but it is not canon because it NEVER HAPPENED.  You do not work for Bioware.  You are not a writer.  You opinions no matter how reasonable are not cannon unless they are in the game.

And once again, Anderson and Saren took on a crappy shackled AI or something.  I don't even remember.  The point is two people defeated whatever the hell it was they were after.  However, just like it was too late for the Quarians, if the council were to go to Rannoch in this story that is not in the game, they may be smarter than the dumb a** Quarians and conclude this ARMY OF GETH is best handled by not antagonizing them because trying to stop them if they rebel as the Quarians learned the hard way is going to take more than just two d**n people.  Just like how after the billion dead Quarians the Council did nothing.  The only reason the Quarians tried to kill the Geth is because they f**king miscalculated.  They thought they could do it.  There is no gurantee that the 3 Council races with Salarians and their analytical minds will not run the numbers and be like "hell f**king no, trying to kill these dudes will result in a sh*t ton of dead people if these dudes rebel"  So you are assuming the Council will misculate like the Quarians. 

NO. The Catalyst is the perpetuator of the first cycle. It did exactally what it's stopping other cycles from doing: It turned on its masters. The EXACT same criteria as those synthetics in the cycles it stopps.
And the entire reason it was built was because the synthetcis kept wiping out the organics. And again, they gave it full regin, unlimited resources and no time constraints. Let it have it's own army. And if anything, that should be the epitimy that synthetcis are no more infalable, or innocent of prejudice and bias then organics. You invaladated your own arguement with that.
And AGAIN, despite the fact that they say it wasn't a mistake, they STILL call it a "betrayal," and that they "turned against us."

And again, since it's supported by Cannon, and there is nothing that disproves it, then it CAN'T be called headcannon, can it?

And again, if the quarians didn't do it, then the Council would have come in guns blazing and set off the Morning War anyway. And then the Council will be drawn into an unavoidable war that they had no clue they were getting themselves into, and be pissed with the quarians when it's all over.  What you never got was that one way or another, SOMEONE was going to attack the geth. No one knew the geth were sapiant or a threat, so they figured that they were bascially LOKI's waiting to be demolished. I never said I endorsed the decision to assume they were not sapiant, or brush everything off they did as "parroting life." What I repeadtedly said, was that I understand where the quarians were coming from, and WHY they did what they did: desperation, and the desire to make sure their own were safe in the long run. The turians, asari, salarians, humans, krogan, and just about every other race already does the same with each other - they don't need to be against synthectis to consider their own more important. Now THIS is where Alud Wulf should have put the "paradigm shift" ideal. The quarians lookd after their people by reasoning AND by instinct. Either way, the geth were going to be attacked by either the Council or them. And if it's the Council, the quarians are in hot water, so they figured "save who they know they can."

Tell me that SOME of this is getting across.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Remydat your seriously still trying to argue that the Geth are black slaves that need to be freed...From there white Quarian oppressors? That's what your running with? Okay well your a little late martin Cause they freed themselves, murdered everyone on the planet and took it over 300 years ago.

And here you go making up stuff.  No they are not black slaves because I can only wish my ancestors did have the power to rise up and kill the slave owners.  Do you honestly think I would be upset if they did? Nope, pretty sure it would be a holiday on the calendar and I would eat hot dogs and apple pie.

I am arguing that people can rationalize anything when it suits their best interest.  Again, not my problem if this makes you feel uncomfortable.  Your solution is to stop discussing it with me if it bothers you so much. 

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Stop using that, since it's baltently WRONG.
And so, in other words, you'd need to steal a car and be punished for it before you realized it's worse then the punishment for stealing a candy bar?
If the Council is willing to impose harsh scanctions on a single shackled A.I., then it's base logic to assume that the punishment is worse for multiple unshackled A.I.s. It's like how you get a few days in county jail for stealing a candy bar, and then get five years in state prison for setaling a car. Worse crime, worse punishment.
It's not rocket science, it's a fairly simple premise, and the fact that it takes more then ten pages for you to get something SO SIMPLE as "worse crime, worse punishment" is ridiculous.

And again, there WAS a race of A.I. on the Citadel was was completely willing to be full members of the Citadel Races, just like the geth.... and the Council killed them on sight. EDI's been usefull to the war effort, saved thousands of lives, and can be conidered a war hero and massive war asset against the Reapers. But according to Joker, that means nothing to the Council: if they find out she's an A.I., they "lynch" her. No regard to usefullness or future power. She's an A.I., so she has to die. And because the geth already resised several attempts to reprogram them by the people that made their prigramming, the Council isn't going to risk tampering with what even the creator couldn't fix. If you want a fan in the cealing, and the electricion can't find a way to do it without a problem, are YOU going to try and do it yourself and likely be fried?
If the experts on A.I.s can't reprogram their own programming, what makes you think the Council would ever believe it a possibility.
This, PLUS the law that unshakled  A.I.s are ilegal and a danger and must be terminated on sight, Is COMPLETE proof that the Council would NEVER have considered taking the geth as their own, or that they would have held back in attacking them had they been aware of their possible sapicance.
So in truth, the only one displaying ignorance on the term is you.

EDI = Single AI  that can be killed fast enough that you can watch the premiere of Blasto 7 same day.

Geth = Army of AI that wiped out a billion people,

Do you get it now.  The Council can be harsh when the threat is a single AI.  A quick phone call to any half wit Salarian scientist and the dude would be like WTF, no we are not taking them on when they pose no threat right now. 

And I never said anything about reprograming.  I was talking about playing nice while they still have respect for organic life.  Remember they actually liked their creators initially.  They actually were happy to serve.  It is the height of stupidity to go to war with what is right now a peaceful army that loves organics.  The Quarian's mistake was in thinking the Council was just as stupid as they are.

But that's wrong, as we are shown in the Council Arhcives of the Citadel DLC that the Council ordered the eradication of a large group of A.I.s. The image shows "the last of the A.I.s" being wiped out, so there were many more - a station wide op. They killed those A.I.s on a wide scale.
Do YOU get it? Number has nothing to do with it. Being unshackled is the key element.
The Council's afriad of unshackled A.I.s. The whole reason they force scanctions agains the Aliance is because they are afirad of how the Alliance isn't afraid of A.I.s.

And the same as above: those A.I.s on the Citadel patationed for a peacefull residence and membership into the Citadel Races. They were promptly wiped out, in spite of reterating their peacefull intentions. They were happy to willingly serve too, and the Council could care less.
And they would have treated the geth the same way.
And AGAIN, the quarian's aren't stupid. They are desperate.  They know the Council is never going to give a damn about A.I. rights, so they either have to kill the geth to save their people's future from the Council's wrath, or go down with the ship when the Council realizes what the geth might be becoming. And again, since no one knew the geth were sapiant, they didn't think they were destroying anything that couldn't be rebuilt.

Look at Battlestar Galactica. Who do you sympathise with there?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 07:13 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

NO. The Catalyst is the perpetuator of the first cycle. It did exactally what it's stopping other cycles from doing: It turned on its masters. The EXACT same criteria as those synthetics in the cycles it stopps.
And the entire reason it was built was because the synthetcis kept wiping out the organics. And again, they gave it full regin, unlimited resources and no time constraints. Let it have it's own army. And if anything, that should be the epitimy that synthetcis are no more infalable, or innocent of prejudice and bias then organics. You invaladated your own arguement with that.
And AGAIN, despite the fact that they say it wasn't a mistake, they STILL call it a "betrayal," and that they "turned against us."

And again, since it's supported by Cannon, and there is nothing that disproves it, then it CAN'T be called headcannon, can it?

And again, if the quarians didn't do it, then the Council would have come in guns blazing and set off the Morning War anyway. And then the Council will be drawn into an unavoidable war that they had no clue they were getting themselves into, and be pissed with the quarians when it's all over.  What you never got was that one way or another, SOMEONE was going to attack the geth. No one knew the geth were sapiant or a threat, so they figured that they were bascially LOKI's waiting to be demolished. I never said I endorsed the decision to assume they were not sapiant, or brush everything off they did as "parroting life." What I repeadtedly said, was that I understand where the quarians were coming from, and WHY they did what they did: desperation, and the desire to make sure their own were safe in the long run. The turians, asari, salarians, humans, krogan, and just about every other race already does the same with each other - they don't need to be against synthectis to consider their own more important. Now THIS is where Alud Wulf should have put the "paradigm shift" ideal. The quarians lookd after their people by reasoning AND by instinct. Either way, the geth were going to be attacked by either the Council or them. And if it's the Council, the quarians are in hot water, so they figured "save who they know they can."

Tell me that SOME of this is getting across.

I never claimed synthetics were infallible.   Please find a post where I say that.  I said that the reason for the conflict ie the conflict that results in the Reapers is IMO and based on the Quarians and Council organics create synthetics, fear them and then war ensues.  The result then is the Reapers.  And the Reapers are pretty f**king stupid.  But what do you expect when it's creator saw the conflict and decided I know how to solve this.  Let me create an even more sophiscated synthetic.

I will ask you a simple question.  Do organics have different opinions?  Is it possible the Asari and Salarians in particular will conclude that an Army of Geth will result in a lot of dead people if it rebels?  Once again, your flaw is in assuming the Counciil will arrive at the same conclusion the Quarians did when last I checked they were different than the Quarians and include two of the races considered the smarest and wisest in the galaxy.  I think they can look at the math and figure out killing an Army is harder than killing EDI.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[andy6915]

Reading this page (p:69) makes me wonder something. Would Loki mechs become sapient like the Geth if they were designed to network together like the Geth were? I'm thinking yes considering the a single Geth unit is about as simple and basic as a loki mech, so them networking should get the same result.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But that's wrong, as we are shown in the Council Arhcives of the Citadel DLC that the Council ordered the eradication of a large group of A.I.s. The image shows "the last of the A.I.s" being wiped out, so there were many more - a station wide op. They killed those A.I.s on a wide scale.
Do YOU get it? Number has nothing to do with it. Being unshackled is the key element.
The Council's afriad of unshackled A.I.s. The whole reason they force scanctions agains the Aliance is because they are afirad of how the Alliance isn't afraid of A.I.s.

And the same as above: those A.I.s on the Citadel patationed for a peacefull residence and membership into the Citadel Races. They were promptly wiped out, in spite of reterating their peacefull intentions. They were happy to willingly serve too, and the Council could care less.
And they would have treated the geth the same way.
And AGAIN, the quarian's aren't stupid. They are desperate.  They know the Council is never going to give a damn about A.I. rights, so they either have to kill the geth to save their people's future from the Council's wrath, or go down with the ship when the Council realizes what the geth might be becoming. And again, since no one knew the geth were sapiant, they didn't think they were destroying anything that couldn't be rebuilt.

Look at Battlestar Galactica. Who do you sympathise with there?

So you think numbers don't matter because of some unspecificed number of AI killed.  Give me documented proof of how many.  While you are at it provide evidence this unspecified number could kill a billion people.

This is like saying well this one time at band camp, the Council killed 1,000 AI.  So that means it will kill these AIs that we later find out are capable of killing 1 billion people.  Do you have any concept of war? Taking on 10,000 AI is different that taking one 100,000 or 1 million or 10 million or 100 million.  All of those numbers are relatively big numbers but devising a war plan for each is drastically different.  I don't know exactly how much Geth there are but they killed a billion people dude. 1 billion

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 07:30 .

[Iamjdr]

It does bother me that you value so little of black history being a self proclaimed black man, you do an awful lot to spit on our accomplishments. you would have a holiday if our ancestors killed there oppressors? Well guess what. I'll keep my holidays remembering the men who gave there lives to bring us our freedoms. They overcame racism and prejudice through THIER ACTIONS. Not by murdering there oppressors. Have you forgotten the buffalo soldiers? They proved that people were wrong about us But no that's not good enough for the Geth cause why? Then you trivialize how hard those people worked to be treated as equals by saying that the geth dont need to prove anything to anyone cause they were wronged. And we wernt wronged ? Are you saying the Geth are better than us? Cause we showed people how wrong they were, we didnt just kill everyone and then say that Everyone was mean to us so everything we do is justified. That's why you don't make wild comparisons that don't apply I think you need to Take a look in the mirror when talking about rationalizing things that suits your best interests....

Modifié par Iamjdr, 22 mars 2013 - 07:34 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

NO. The Catalyst is the perpetuator of the first cycle. It did exactally what it's stopping other cycles from doing: It turned on its masters. The EXACT same criteria as those synthetics in the cycles it stopps.
And the entire reason it was built was because the synthetcis kept wiping out the organics. And again, they gave it full regin, unlimited resources and no time constraints. Let it have it's own army. And if anything, that should be the epitimy that synthetcis are no more infalable, or innocent of prejudice and bias then organics. You invaladated your own arguement with that.
And AGAIN, despite the fact that they say it wasn't a mistake, they STILL call it a "betrayal," and that they "turned against us."

And again, since it's supported by Cannon, and there is nothing that disproves it, then it CAN'T be called headcannon, can it?

And again, if the quarians didn't do it, then the Council would have come in guns blazing and set off the Morning War anyway. And then the Council will be drawn into an unavoidable war that they had no clue they were getting themselves into, and be pissed with the quarians when it's all over.  What you never got was that one way or another, SOMEONE was going to attack the geth. No one knew the geth were sapiant or a threat, so they figured that they were bascially LOKI's waiting to be demolished. I never said I endorsed the decision to assume they were not sapiant, or brush everything off they did as "parroting life." What I repeadtedly said, was that I understand where the quarians were coming from, and WHY they did what they did: desperation, and the desire to make sure their own were safe in the long run. The turians, asari, salarians, humans, krogan, and just about every other race already does the same with each other - they don't need to be against synthectis to consider their own more important. Now THIS is where Alud Wulf should have put the "paradigm shift" ideal. The quarians lookd after their people by reasoning AND by instinct. Either way, the geth were going to be attacked by either the Council or them. And if it's the Council, the quarians are in hot water, so they figured "save who they know they can."

Tell me that SOME of this is getting across.

I never claimed synthetics were infallible.   Please find a post where I say that.  I said that the reason for the conflict ie the conflict that results in the Reapers is IMO and based on the Quarians and Council organics create synthetics, fear them and then war ensues.  The result then is the Reapers.  And the Reapers are pretty f**king stupid.  But what do you expect when it's creator saw the conflict and decided I know how to solve this.  Let me create an even more sophiscated synthetic.

I will ask you a simple question.  Do organics have different opinions?  Is it possible the Asari and Salarians in particular will conclude that an Army of Geth will result in a lot of dead people if it rebels?  Once again, your flaw is in assuming the Counciil will arrive at the same conclusion the Quarians did when last I checked they were different than the Quarians and include two of the races considered the smarest and wisest in the galaxy.  I think they can look at the math and figure out killing an Army is harder than killing EDI.

You said that "organics naturally have a prejudice against synthetics, and therefore prpetuate the conflict. So I'll give you that you didn't say "synthetcis are infalible," but that wasn't my point. It was that synthetics are just as guilty of thowing a first stone and pepertuating conflicts.
And the point was that quarian fear of the Council was what forced them to do what they did. I'll bet you that had the Council's ****** rules on A.I.s didn't exist, the quarians would have embraced the geth, instead of fearing them because someone else feared them.


But would the asari and salairans think any different of an army of krogan? Did they? They did the same exact thing with the krogan, taking a race that had the potental for a massive boon, and it blew up in their faces. They aren't going to do the same thing twice. And when the krogan refused to return the worlds, the Council threw the first stone in the Rebellions with black-ops attacks by the Spectres. The krogan were the larger force, and the Council didn't hesitate to cast the first stone, so that isn't the problem. It doens't matter if it's harder or not. All that matters is if it's a direct and imminant threat to their holdings. They don't care about size and power under normal circumstances. After all, they didn't consider Saren an imminant threat to their holdings, even WITH the geth, and we ALL know how that turned out. They do what they want, and only do something if it threatens them personally.

[silverexile17s]

andy69156915 wrote...

Reading this page (p:69) makes me wonder something. Would Loki mechs become sapient like the Geth if they were designed to network together like the Geth were? I'm thinking yes considering the a single Geth unit is about as simple and basic as a loki mech, so them networking should get the same result.

Close enough.