4712 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Close enough... What? That's a bit light on details and I'm not sure what you're calling close enough. My post? The loki's? What?

[remydat]

andy69156915 wrote...

Reading this page (p:69) makes me wonder something. Would Loki mechs become sapient like the Geth if they were designed to network together like the Geth were? I'm thinking yes considering the a single Geth unit is about as simple and basic as a loki mech, so them networking should get the same result.

I suppose it depends on how similar the underlying programming is.  I would think the Geth are not the only machines that were designed to network together yet they are the only ones that develop sentience.

I think the scene at around 11 minutes implies the chic who messes with that unit's circuitry did something that ultimately allowed the Geth to be born.  This is exactly why I don't let my GF touch my electronics.



Incidentally I always go back and forth on this but the scene where the unit picks up the sniper riper to protect itself and other units following it was definitely Legion right?  Shepard remakrs the rifle looks like the one Legion uses and Legion pauses for a second before saying it is an efficient modell.

I always interepreted that as him not wanting to outright admit it was him but then never really understand why he wouldn't admit it.  Then again, I guess he has no concept that he was a hero and perhaps is actually either ashamed he killed even in defense or thinks Shepard will be ashamed.

Or is this infact an entirely separate Unit and Legion just keeps his rifle like he did Shep's Armor.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But that's wrong, as we are shown in the Council Arhcives of the Citadel DLC that the Council ordered the eradication of a large group of A.I.s. The image shows "the last of the A.I.s" being wiped out, so there were many more - a station wide op. They killed those A.I.s on a wide scale.
Do YOU get it? Number has nothing to do with it. Being unshackled is the key element.
The Council's afriad of unshackled A.I.s. The whole reason they force scanctions agains the Aliance is because they are afirad of how the Alliance isn't afraid of A.I.s.

And the same as above: those A.I.s on the Citadel patationed for a peacefull residence and membership into the Citadel Races. They were promptly wiped out, in spite of reterating their peacefull intentions. They were happy to willingly serve too, and the Council could care less.
And they would have treated the geth the same way.
And AGAIN, the quarian's aren't stupid. They are desperate.  They know the Council is never going to give a damn about A.I. rights, so they either have to kill the geth to save their people's future from the Council's wrath, or go down with the ship when the Council realizes what the geth might be becoming. And again, since no one knew the geth were sapiant, they didn't think they were destroying anything that couldn't be rebuilt.

Look at Battlestar Galactica. Who do you sympathise with there?

So you think numbers don't matter because of some unspecificed number of AI killed.  Give me documented proof of how many.  While you are at it provide evidence this unspecified number could kill a billion people.

This is like saying well this one time at band camp, the Council killed 1,000 AI.  So that means it will kill these AIs that we later find out are capable of killing 1 billion people.  Do you have any concept of war? Taking on 10,000 AI is different that taking one 100,000 or 1 million or 10 million or 100 million.  All of those numbers are relatively big numbers but devising a war plan for each is drastically different.  I don't know exactly how much Geth there are but they killed a billion people dude. 1 billion

Recordings are in the Council Archives unlocked in the Citdael DLC.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:27. You will see a literally documented act of A.I. prejudice. They say that these are "the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." The A.I.s ask why they unlawfully murder them, when their appeal to overturn the anti-A.I. laws hasn't even been adressed by the Council. The turian leading the squad says to "be quiet," and that the Council will never overturn it's own edict. They then beg to not be killed, to which the Council squad kills them.
And like I said, they don't care. They don't wan't unshackled A.I.s period. They could care how little or great the risk is, unless they are personally included in that toll.

And I never said that the Council was SMART. *I* understand the concept of war fully. I never said THEY did. My entire point was that they DIDN'T.
That math is exaxtally their reasoning. They killed those A.I.s, and will not hesitate to do so again if it threatens them persoanly. And like I said, the Council wouldn't know the geth coild fight back, anymore then the quarians did. Remember how the quarians were caught off guard by the geth's retaliation? The Council would have charged in gung-ho, completely unaware of what they were getting into. That's the point. They DIDN'T know, beacuse they likely figured the geth were not advanced or intelligent enough to fight back. Or, like the A.I.s they already killed, unwilling TO fight back. THAT'S what the Council would have banked on.
Do you get it? The entire point was that the Council would have rushed in without realizing that the geth were fully capable of self-defense, and willing TO defend themselves. They would have fallen into the same fight the quarians got into (the same fight the quarians were hoping to prevent ironicly). The entire point is that the Council DOESN'T have any understanding of the concept of war. The fact that in ME1, they didn't send any of the OTHER dozens of Spectres they had avalible to stop Saren at Ilos was kind of a big hint to that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 mars 2013 - 07:54 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You said that "organics naturally have a prejudice against synthetics, and therefore prpetuate the conflict. So I'll give you that you didn't say "synthetcis are infalible," but that wasn't my point. It was that synthetics are just as guilty of thowing a first stone and pepertuating conflicts.
And the point was that quarian fear of the Council was what forced them to do what they did. I'll bet you that had the Council's ****** rules on A.I.s didn't exist, the quarians would have embraced the geth, instead of fearing them because someone else feared them.


But would the asari and salairans think any different of an army of krogan? Did they? They did the same exact thing with the krogan, taking a race that had the potental for a massive boon, and it blew up in their faces. They aren't going to do the same thing twice. And when the krogan refused to return the worlds, the Council threw the first stone in the Rebellions with black-ops attacks by the Spectres. The krogan were the larger force, and the Council didn't hesitate to cast the first stone, so that isn't the problem. It doens't matter if it's harder or not. All that matters is if it's a direct and imminant threat to their holdings. They don't care about size and power under normal circumstances. After all, they didn't consider Saren an imminant threat to their holdings, even WITH the geth, and we ALL know how that turned out. They do what they want, and only do something if it threatens them personally.

My comment about the natural prejudice was talking about the conflict between the lesser organics and their creations not Leviathan and the Reapers.  The Catalyst is created by an entity that considers itself the pinnacle of life and hence is the one organic race that does not appear to have an inherent fear of machines hence why they create the Catalyst.  They are too superior to fall victim to a machine.   Both Leviathan and the Reapers are different than the rest of them for that reason.  That is also why Harbinger is such a douche.  That is a Leviathan talkng when he goes about his bull.

The Krogan Rebelled though.  I don't remember all the details but I thought the Krogan wanted more and more terroritory and then rebelled when they did get more concessions from the council.  In any event I am not saying it is fact that this scenario happens, I am just illustrating to you that there are other options than you one you present to point out that you can't call it cannon.  You can say it is a logical or reasonable theory of what you think would happen but it is not cannon until it actually happens.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Recordings are in the Council Archives unlocked in the Citdael DLC.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Go to 1:27. You will see a literally documented act of A.I. prejudice. They say that these are "the last of the A.I.s on the Citadel." The A.I.s ask why they unlawfully murder them, when their appeal to overturn the anti-A.I. laws hasn't even been adressed by the Council. The turian leading the squad says to "be quiet," and that the Council will never overturn it's own edict. They then beg to not be killed, to which the Council squad kills them.
And like I said, they don't care. They don't wan't unshackled A.I.s period. They could care how little or great the risk is, unless they are personally included in that toll.

And I never said that the Council was SMART. *I* understand the concept of war fully. I never said THEY did. My entire point was that they DIDN'T.
That math is exaxtally their reasoning. They killed those A.I.s, and will not hesitate to do so again if it threatens them persoanly. And like I said, the Council wouldn't know the geth coild fight back, anymore then the quarians did. Remember how the quarians were caught off guard by the geth's retaliation? The Council would have charged in gung-ho, completely unaware of what they were getting into. That's the point. They DIDN'T know, beacuse they likely figured the geth were not advanced or intelligent enough to fight back. Or, like the A.I.s they already killed, unwilling TO fight back. THAT'S what the Council would have banked on.
Do you get it? The entire point was that the Council would have rushed in without realizing that the geth were fully capable of self-defense, and willing TO defend themselves. They would have fallen into the same fight the quarians got into (the same fight the quarians were hoping to prevent ironicly). The entire point is that the Council DOESN'T have any understanding of the concept of war. The fact that in ME1, they didn't send any of the OTHER dozens of Spectres they had avalible to stop Saren at Ilos was kind of a big hint to that.

This is 3 AI.  We don't know how many there were, the Council took long enough to kill them that these guys filed a petition and these guys all presumably died without raising a finger because they were waiting to have their petition heard.  What sort of rushing in allows an AI to file a petition.  

Wait, holy sh*t.  They FILED AN APPEAL, lol.  Not only did the Council not rush in, they allowed these AI to file a petition, they deliberated on that denied it and then they allowed the AI to file an Appeal.  What sort of guns blazing is that?

How does that equate with what we know is a large enough force to kill one billion and who we know actually go to war when threatened?

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 08:14 .

[tevix]

@Remy

You're ridiculous, you know that?

First you try to call my bluff on the consistancy of my argument. When it turns out I WASN"T bluffing you STILL try to find a way to nitpick my argument to pieces. Unbelievable.

We can pretty safely assume that if some of the quarians turned to the reapers some of the fleet would break off and exile themselves. I wouldn't seek their destruction.

Also, I love how you call all of my previous arguments irrelevant because my final decision is based on the reaper alliance.

The whole POINT of my arguments is to show the quarians aren't as evil as you think, and the geth aren't as good as you think. Frankly, even without the reaper alliance I've come to realize the geth are far worse in their actions than the quarians.

I don't recall any information, for example, ever stating that the quarian flotilla arbitrarily destroyed vessels of peace looking to negotiate with them.

[tevix]

Man, remy, you are REALLY desperate. Looking back at the last couple pages is good for a laugh.

First you say:

"Show me proof that the quarians were afraid of council law, or that the council might punish them"

Then deinon does, to which you reply

"Show me proof the council actually did anything. Until you can it's all headcanon. The quarians did it because they were afraid of the geth."

Totally dodging the argument. Here, dodge this one then.

Show us proof, actual in game undeniable proof where the quarians say "We need to kill the geth, they might rise up and kill us if we don't". You keep saying thats why the quarians started the war.

Well.

Prove it.

Or it's head canon.

@Auld Wolf
I don't appreciate being accused of being a racist. Please point out the arguments where you feel my decisions are based on race, and not actions.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Just so you all know this has been marvelously entertaining.

I actually have less sympathy for the Geth now than I did before all this, go figure.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Just so you all know this has been marvelously entertaining.

I actually have less sympathy for the Geth now than I did before all this, go figure.

I have no sympathy for anyone who would disgrace The Highest Military Rank in The Empire with the name, Cheesecake.

Modifié par Da Don Giovanni, 22 mars 2013 - 09:56 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Two things:

1) The "a" wasn't necessary.

2) Cheesecake is a marvelous name for a Grand Admiral, it psychologically wrong foots people.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 22 mars 2013 - 09:52 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Two things:

1) The "a" wasn't necessary.

2) Cheesecake is a marvelous name for a Grand Admiral, it psychologically wrong foots people.

Two things:

1) You were looking for "Fools" not foots.

2) Cheesecake is not intimidating in anyway. You and I both know this, yet you resist.

IF I HAVE TO TEAR YOU APART, I WILL!

YOU WILL KNOW PAIN!

I AM THE HARBINGER OF YOUR PERFECTION!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Two things:

1) The "a" wasn't necessary.

2) Cheesecake is a marvelous name for a Grand Admiral, it psychologically wrong foots people.

Two things:

1) You were looking for "Fools" not foots.

2) Cheesecake is not intimidating in anyway. You and I both know this, yet you resist.

IF I HAVE TO TEAR YOU APART, I WILL!

YOU WILL KNOW PAIN!

I AM THE HARBINGER OF YOUR PERFECTION!

I was actually going for the whole "wrong foot" angle but whatever.

Really Harbinger quotes? I thought you had more self respect than that. Should have at least gone for a classier villain.

Also *pew pew pew to the destroy tube* Bye bye mecha-cuttlefish!

[tevix]

@Da Don

He will show you true power.

He's a living being made of cheesecake....

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

tevix wrote...

@Da Don

He will show you true power.

He's a living being made of cheesecake....

Join me and together we will rule the Galaxy!!!!

[tevix]

@Cheescake

DO NOT WANT!!!!

[Barquiel]

silverexile17s wrote...
And the point was that quarian fear of the Council was what forced them to do what they did. I'll bet you that had the Council's ****** rules on A.I.s didn't exist, the quarians would have embraced the geth, instead of fearing them because someone else feared them.

Pardon, but proof please? The quarians give us plenty of excuses (especially our quarian encyclopedia in ME1) why it was alright for them to act how they did, but not a single quarian mentions the council law as a reason to kill the geth. And before you start with your "harsh sanctions", the reason why the council (read: the turians) planed to impose these sanctions on the Alliance was because they were concerned about humanity's very rapid expansion (insert "humans are special" rant here), and they saw it as an opportunity to keep the Alliance under control. It is easy to say what position the Council was in, 300 years later with nothing more than speculation to judge them on. It is another thing to be in the position of making the decision to commit the troops when there are real lives on the line. As for the citadel archive...you have zero context for that scene. Who are these A.I? What are they doing? Who created them? How many of them existed? Maybe they're the reason for the council races irrational fear of AIs. We don't know it.

silverexile17s wrote...
And when the krogan refused to return the worlds, the Council threw the first stone in the Rebellions with black-ops attacks by the Spectres.

That's sheer nonsense. The krogan were given the conquered rachni planets along with several pristine, habitable worlds after the rachni wars.

And to quote the codex...
After the Rachni War, the quick-breeding krogan expanded at the expense of their neighbors. Warlords leveraged their veteran soldiers to seize living space while the Council races were still grateful. Over centuries, the krogan conquered world after world. There was always "just one more" needed. When the Council finally demanded withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, krogan Overlord Kredak stormed off the Citadel, daring the Council to take their worlds back.

Modifié par Barquiel, 22 mars 2013 - 10:10 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

tevix wrote...

@Cheescake

DO NOT WANT!!!!

It is unavoidable. It is your destiny.

[tevix]

@Barquiel

If the quarians didn't fear council sanctions Tali wouldn't have talked about how the quarians were always trying to skirt around the law while never technically violating it.

They knew what they were doing, and they knew the consequences if their research went too far. That right there is heavy implications potential council actions provoked them to shut the geth down before the council found out.

Second, I'd be willing to put some serious money on that the council sanctions against AI violations were harshened as a result of the morning war, not humanity's sudden appearance.

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

Man, remy, you are REALLY desperate. Looking back at the last couple pages is good for a laugh.

First you say:

"Show me proof that the quarians were afraid of council law, or that the council might punish them"

Then deinon does, to which you reply

"Show me proof the council actually did anything. Until you can it's all headcanon. The quarians did it because they were afraid of the geth."

Totally dodging the argument. Here, dodge this one then.

Show us proof, actual in game undeniable proof where the quarians say "We need to kill the geth, they might rise up and kill us if we don't". You keep saying thats why the quarians started the war.

Well.

Prove it.

Or it's head canon.

@Auld Wolf
I don't appreciate being accused of being a racist. Please point out the arguments where you feel my decisions are based on race, and not actions.

In fairness, that's included in ME1 dialogue. At least, we're told the Quarians expected the Geth to attack them. The same discussion tells us the Quarians didn't think the Geth were truly sentient yet, but they were close. The reasoning provided for why they expected the Geth to revolt if they "woke up" is the same reasoning provided in Revelation (that passage I provided earlier) explaining why the Council treats the creation of AI as "a crime against the entire galaxy."

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Shepard has some dialogue in ME3 pertaining to this. When you first meet the admirals, ask about their history, say "the Quarians were wrong" to try to shut down the Geth, then choose "I disagree" at the next dialogue tree.

[Xilizhra]

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

[tevix]

@Deinon

Truthfully, I'm aware that the quarians feared geth revolt. That said, it's also true they feared council sanctions. It was a two-pronged fear.

Remy just dismisses the latter as head-canon despite there being proof of it. Just firing his own ammo back at him.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

It's canon whether you like it or not. Just because it goes against your side, doesn't mean you can dismiss it.

---

So, the Council killing those AI a year after the Morning War were just doing so... Why?

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

The only people I ever hear lamenting the attempted genocide on the Geth are Shepard, and the Quarians themselves. Heck, part of the Council's reaction was to issue an extermination order for non-Geth AIs they previously sanctioned.

Ekuna is right there in ME2. No retraction was issued to declare it non-canon. It has a whole star system to itself. It's part of the Council abuse Shepard alludes to in the dialogue path I outlined in ME3. You'll have to explain why we're supposed to pretend it doesn't exist.

[tevix]

@Khelish

I've spent 20 pages or so running that point.

It uh....it doesn't seem to get through.

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

I've spent 20 pages or so running that point.

It uh....it doesn't seem to get through.

Only reason I'm here is becuase of the blatant misuse of the word "canon".