4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Khelish

I wasn't aware I was misuing it.

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

The only people I ever hear lamenting the attempted genocide on the Geth are Shepard, and the Quarians themselves. Heck, part of the Council's reaction was to issue an extermination order for non-Geth AIs they previously sanctioned.

Ekuna is right there in ME2. No retraction was issued to declare it non-canon. It has a whole star system to itself. It's part of the Council abuse Shepard alludes to in the dialogue path I outlined in ME3. You'll have to explain why we're supposed to pretend it doesn't exist.

What's also right there in ME2 is Gei Hinnom's planetary entry, which says it's a barren wasteland, when actually we land in a varren-filled jungle. Not all of the planetary entries correspond with reality. Additionally, if Ekuna is supposed to exist, it seems to be in the wrong place, as it's supposedly within the Terminus Systems, where the Council will absolutely not go in force. Either Ekuna is supposed to be in a different system, or it's blatantly contradictory to much of the plot of both ME1 and ME2. And no, "Council hypocrisy" doesn't cut it for explaining why they don't go after a renegade Spectre leading the geth but do go after a crappy attempt at a colony. It's utterly nonsensical.

[tevix]

@Xilizhra

The council is full of bass-ackward, hypocritical, self-contradicting actions since ME1.

How is that out of character or "nonsensical" for them?

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

The only people I ever hear lamenting the attempted genocide on the Geth are Shepard, and the Quarians themselves. Heck, part of the Council's reaction was to issue an extermination order for non-Geth AIs they previously sanctioned.

Ekuna is right there in ME2. No retraction was issued to declare it non-canon. It has a whole star system to itself. It's part of the Council abuse Shepard alludes to in the dialogue path I outlined in ME3. You'll have to explain why we're supposed to pretend it doesn't exist.

What's also right there in ME2 is Gei Hinnom's planetary entry, which says it's a barren wasteland, when actually we land in a varren-filled jungle. Not all of the planetary entries correspond with reality. Additionally, if Ekuna is supposed to exist, it seems to be in the wrong place, as it's supposedly within the Terminus Systems, where the Council will absolutely not go in force. Either Ekuna is supposed to be in a different system, or it's blatantly contradictory to much of the plot of both ME1 and ME2. And no, "Council hypocrisy" doesn't cut it for explaining why they don't go after a renegade Spectre leading the geth but do go after a crappy attempt at a colony. It's utterly nonsensical.

"Citadel Space" is a term which refers to any populated area of the galaxy which recognizes Council authority. The Quarians found Ekuna in the Terminus, and petitioned the Council for the right to settle there - for the right to have Ekuna recognized as a Quarian world. Ekuna became a part of Citadel Space when the Quarians living there recognized Council authority - the same authority which the Council used to drive them off of Ekuna at gunpoint, then giving it to the Elcor who are still in the Council's good graces.

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

I wasn't aware I was misuing it.

You aren't.

---

@Xil, No.

Ekuna has history written along with a planet description. You are going to argue that BioWare wrote Ekuna because they wanted to lie?



Sir, Ekuna is canon.

[DeinonSlayer]

Also, I don't believe the Council wouldn't go into the Terminus. They claimed that in ME1, but was it true? They spend most of the game trying to ignore what's happening - most of Kaidan's dialogue hearkens back to that point. An interpretation of the events of ME1 is that the Council was threatened by the rate of humanity's expansion and were content to let the Geth put us back in our place. "Oh, no. Sorry, we can't help with that." Choose the "it's political B.S." dialogue option on Noveria when Captain Matsuo asks why you were appointed a Spectre.

Seriously. They can't even be bothered to step up patrols of their own borders?

[tevix]

@Deinon

Doesn't the council say at some point in ME1 or 2 something along the lines of

"We won't be drawn into a galactic confrontation over a few dozen human colonies"?

That's nearly 40 worlds at a minimum...and that doesn't warrant action. Hah. Love the council.

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

Doesn't the council say at some point in ME1 or 2 something along the lines of

"We won't be drawn into a galactic confrontation over a few dozen human colonies"?

That's nearly 40 worlds at a minimum...and that doesn't warrant action. Hah. Love the council.

NOT CANON, COUNCIL COULD BE TALKING IN SECRET BEHIND YOUR BACK SECRETLY SENDING IN SHIPS TO HELP./sarcasm

[mauro2222]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

That's a toughie. Given no peace option, I'm not sure I could make that choice.

Sure I choose destroy and by EAware's definition of the ending I'm essentially choosing the Quarrians. However I feel that the Geth would be willing to sacrifice themselves to destroy the Old Machines for EVERYONE'S sake, and I'm not so sure they'd be willing to die for just the Creators sake.

Am I assuming here? Absolutely, but that's how I see it in my opinion.

[tevix]

@Khelish

Just...

Ugh.

[NCommand]

Khelish wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

Doesn't the council say at some point in ME1 or 2 something along the lines of

"We won't be drawn into a galactic confrontation over a few dozen human colonies"?

That's nearly 40 worlds at a minimum...and that doesn't warrant action. Hah. Love the council.

NOT CANON, COUNCIL COULD BE TALKING IN SECRET BEHIND YOUR BACK SECRETLY SENDING IN SHIPS TO HELP./sarcasm

Not enough headcanon, more, MOAR!

[Khelish]

Headcanon =/= Canon

People need to learn that. Both sides of this Morning War argument use plenty of headcanon due to lack of detail on BioWare's part. They did it on purpose as Deinon said many pages ago.

[tevix]

@Khelish

It sure doesn't help when people in support of one side or another disregard what little canon there actually is as "head canon".

"Bioware says this is official canon"

"Nah, that's head canon. It doesn't have 100% of both sides, so ya."

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

It sure doesn't help when people in support of one side or another disregard what little canon there actually is as "head canon".

"Bioware says this is official canon"

"Nah, that's head canon. It doesn't have 100% of both sides, so ya."

Exactly. This is why Xil's argument fails so hard. With what little info we are given, you would throw it away becuase it merely paints the Council in a bad light?

Funny how they accept all of the consensus mission as truth; not to be questioned at all... <_<

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

It sure doesn't help when people in support of one side or another disregard what little canon there actually is as "head canon".

"Bioware says this is official canon"

"Nah, that's head canon. It doesn't have 100% of both sides, so ya."

I fell out of the debate for a while... was it still being argued that back in the Morning War, the Geth were morally immature and thus can't be held accountable for their actions because they didn't understand their ramifications?

The Codex tells us the ancient Quarians practiced ancestor worship. Even as secularism gained strength, reverence to their elders remained an important part of their culture. We're told that they created ancestral VI archives to preserve the personalities of the deceased (reminds me of the "tree of souls" or whatever from Avatar). We're also told that the Geth destroyed these archives when they took over. Not captured. Not repurposed to aid their own storage or processing capability. Destroyed.

I can't decide if this is equivalent to burning all of the family photo albums or destroying the Quarian religion; bombing their Mecca. The point is, this is not the kind of action one takes in direct defense to direct aggression. It's not a military target, or something the Geth would seek to destroy if they were on the "Noverian Rachni" level I argued earlier, indiscriminately lashing out because they didn't know any better. The sole purpose of this act would be to demoralize; to drive the Quarians to despair. This is the action of an entity which understands the effect it will have, who acts with purpose.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 mars 2013 - 03:21 .

[CronoDragoon]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I can't decide if this is equivalent to burning all of the family photo albums or destroying the Quarian religion; bombing their Mecca. The point is, this is not the kind of action one takes in direct defense to direct aggression. It's not a military target, or something the Geth would seek to destroy if they were on the "Noverian Rachni" level I argued earlier, indiscriminately lashing out because they didn't know any better. The sole purpose of this act would be to demoralize; to drive the Quarians to despair. This is the action of an entity which understands the effect it will have, who acts with purpose.

Which just shows that what we're dealing with here is a failure on the writers' part to portray a consistent picture of the geth, because while they do something like this, ME2 Legion also says that they clean up waste on Rannoch and preserve the land in the same way that humans create cemetaries to honor their dead. The geth "caretake" Rannoch to honor the quarians, which makes very little sense contrasted with some of their other actions.

It's why one side can point out the ruthless survivalist indifference of the geth while the other can point out geth wishful tendencies for peace and respect for the creators.

[tevix]

@Deinon

1) Yes. In addition it has also been argued that because of that they are still morally immature and are like children, and thus cannot be held accountable.

2) Agreed on paragraph 1 & 2.

3) Even if one argued the geth as intelligent as a rabid rachni, that doesn't bode well for them. The queen herself says those rachni need to be destroyed or else THEY will destroy all. Seems a lot like the geth at this point.

[tevix]

@Crono

Agreed on the disparity of how the geth are portrayed.

You know what, though? May not be bad writing. The geth could just be unreliable, untrustworthy, and unpredictable. Certainly how they come across to me.

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

It sure doesn't help when people in support of one side or another disregard what little canon there actually is as "head canon".

"Bioware says this is official canon"

"Nah, that's head canon. It doesn't have 100% of both sides, so ya."

I fell out of the debate for a while... was it still being argued that back in the Morning War, the Geth were morally immature and thus can't be held accountable for their actions because they didn't understand their ramifications?

The Codex tells us the ancient Quarians practiced ancestor worship. Even as secularism gained strength, reverence to their elders remained an important part of their culture. We're told that they created ancestral VI archives to preserve the personalities of the deceased (reminds me of the "tree of souls" or whatever from Avatar). We're also told that the Geth destroyed these archives when they took over. Not captured. Not repurposed to aid their own storage or processing capability. Destroyed.

I can't decide if this is equivalent to burning all of the family photo albums or destroying the Quarian religion; bombing their Mecca. The point is, this is not the kind of action one takes in direct defense to direct aggression. It's not a military target, or something the Geth would seek to destroy if they were on the "Noverian Rachni" level I argued earlier, indiscriminately lashing out because they didn't know any better. The sole purpose of this act would be to demoralize; to drive the Quarians to despair. This is the action of an entity which understands the effect it will have, who acts with purpose.

You misunderstand. What they didn't understand was that not every quarian was a threat. Also, if the quarians defended the archives, the geth could come to the conclusion that they were somehow important even if they didn't really understand why.

As for the Ekuna thing, it's because I believe that not all of the planetary descriptions were written by writers who were paying much attention to the rest of the game, as again seen with the Gei Hinnom entry. Finally, the Attican Traverse does recognize Council authority, yet the Council is nervous about moving fleets in even there. Your argument about Ekuna falls completely flat, and again, the only way this makes any possible sense is for the planet to be in a different region of space than it supposedly is. The elcor government wouldn't even have the resources to form a colony so far away, allegedly under its own control. Someone on the planet description writing staff just wanted to be "lolsoedgy" without understanding the ramifications of what they made.

[tevix]

@Xilizhra

You could make the same argument about the ending.

It's still canon, though. Just because you don't like it or it doesn't make sense do you does not mean it's not canon.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians were forced to leave.

Go learn what canon means.

Edit: 

Modifié par Khelish, 22 mars 2013 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

tevix wrote...

@Xilizhra

You could make the same argument about the ending.

It's still canon, though. Just because you don't like it or it doesn't make sense do you does not mean it's not canon.

The ending was written by the game's actual writers and at least was intended to be integrated into the main story, it wasn't a throwaway blurb with no intended meaning to the game as a whole.

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it
is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians
were forced to leave.

As I mentioned previously, not all the planetary blurbs are canon.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 mars 2013 - 03:43 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Khelish wrote...

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians were forced to leave.

And Ekuna is the only world the Quarian physiology can adapt to, other than Rannoch.

What a tragedy.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it
is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians
were forced to leave.

As I mentioned previously, not all the planetary blurbs are canon.

Anything in Mass Effect is canon. 

As I mentioned previously, go learn what "canon" means.

What you are talking about and doing, is headcanon'ing away what you dislike. GTB.

[tevix]

@Xilizhra

The ending was written by hudson and walters. The writing team had no input. It was written behind locked doors by one producer, and one writer who had no control over it.

The writing on planets isn't throw away. They put a great deal of work into it. If they took the time to write something about a planet...

it's canon. It was written BY THE WRITING STAFF. If a planet is meant to be throw away and meaningless, they don't write anything for it.

It doesn't matter how minute a detail is. If it's there, it's canon.