4712 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

Khelish wrote...

Anything in Mass Effect is canon. 

As I mentioned previously, go learn what "canon" means.

Yeah.

Like how the Reapers have no beginning and no end.

And how Cerberus is an Alliance Black Op gone rogue.

And how there are a total of 3 Ardat-Yakshis known in the galaxy.

And how mammals took their first step on Earth 37 million years ago.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 22 mars 2013 - 03:52 .

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it
is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians
were forced to leave.

As I mentioned previously, not all the planetary blurbs are canon.

Anything in Mass Effect is canon. 

As I mentioned previously, go learn what "canon" means.

What you are talking about and doing, is headcanon'ing away what you dislike. GTB.

Then I'm sure you'd be happy to explain how Shepard and company can go helmetless in a lush jungle on what's allegedly "a nearly atmosphere-less, tidally locked planet."

[DeinonSlayer]

@Xil
They have extranet access. Somehow I think the Geth would have been able to figure out what the archives are. It's not like it's a secret. That was the argument, right? Booksmart, but morally stupid? Or are we just giving them a pass for everything they did back then across the board?

If anything, the level designers weren't paying attention. There's another system where you land on a world to take out a Blood Pack arms factory. The system contains what are called "heavenly twins," two garden worlds in one system, both bombed to uninhabitability long ago (by the Reapers, presumably). The world we land on is a third garden world - Shepard and company wear breathing masks, but there are waterfalls, birds, etc. Heck, Shepard breathes freely on one world with a green atmosphere.

All of that aside, you've made no logical connection between Gei Hinnom and Ekuna. Are we to dismiss any and all planet descriptions now? What about the description for that Asari colony, detailing the opening shots of the Krogan Rebellions?

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then I'm sure you'd be happy to explain how Shepard and company can go helmetless in a lush jungle on what's allegedly "a nearly atmosphere-less, tidally locked planet."

Xil, you are confusing historical descriptions with planetary condition descriptions.

The history of Ekuna is canon, it doesn't conflict with anything in-game, and BioWare has not changed it. Ekuna is canon.

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Xilizhra

You could make the same argument about the ending.

It's still canon, though. Just because you don't like it or it doesn't make sense do you does not mean it's not canon.

MEHEM 

[Xilizhra]

@Xil
They have extranet access. Somehow I think the Geth would have been able to figure out what the archives are. It's not like it's a secret. That was the argument, right? Booksmart, but morally stupid? Or are we just giving them a pass for everything they did back then across the board?

They could figure out what the archives are, yes, and strike a morale blow against the quarians. The point is that they don't know how quarian psychology works, and that not all quarians are actually threats to them. The geth, whose entire population is more or less the same and acts as one, thought that the quarians were the same way and that all quarians were dangers to them, once the sympathetic quarians were killed off/forced into silence.

If anything, the level designers weren't paying attention. There's another system where you land on a world to take out a Blood Pack arms factory. The system contains what are called "heavenly twins," two garden worlds in one system, both bombed to uninhabitability long ago (by the Reapers, presumably). The world we land on is a third garden world - Shepard and company wear breathing masks, but there are waterfalls, birds, etc. Heck, Shepard breathes freely on one world with a green atmosphere.

In-universe, it's a less tortured explanation to say that the planetary blurbs were misfiled somehow, put into the wrong places, than to say that Shepard and company are hallucinating their experiences on-planet.

All of that aside, you've made no logical connection between Gei Hinnom and Ekuna. Are we to dismiss any and all planet descriptions now? What about the description for that Asari colony, detailing the opening shots of the Krogan Rebellions?

It depends. Are they blatantly contradictory to other things we see in-game, in addition to basic common sense (given that the Phoenix Massing, Ekuna's supposed location, is right next door to the Perseus Veil and under the geth umbrella; this is the location of Heretic Station itself, after all)?

Xil, you are confusing historical descriptions with planetary condition descriptions.

The history of Ekuna is canon, it doesn't conflict with anything in-game, and BioWare has not changed it. Ekuna is canon.

Ekuna conflicts with many, many things we see in-game.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 mars 2013 - 03:56 .

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Xil, you are confusing historical descriptions with planetary condition descriptions.

The history of Ekuna is canon, it doesn't conflict with anything in-game, and BioWare has not changed it. Ekuna is canon.

Ekuna conflicts with many, many things we see in-game.

Ekuna's history about Council kicking the Quarians off-world is conflicting with something in-game? Lets hear it.

[DeinonSlayer]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Again, it doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians were forced to leave.

And Ekuna is the only world the Quarian physiology can adapt to, other than Rannoch.

What a tragedy.

It's a second-tier garden world. It's too cold, too much gravity, and it would take six hundred years and extensive genetic engineering (also outlawed by the Council) to remove their physiological dependency on their native plant life and let them adapt to the point that they can survive without suits. Rannoch is the only place in the galaxy where the current generation had any chance to adapt within their lifetimes.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Xil, you are confusing historical descriptions with planetary condition descriptions.

The history of Ekuna is canon, it doesn't conflict with anything in-game, and BioWare has not changed it. Ekuna is canon.

Ekuna conflicts with many, many things we see in-game.

Ekuna's history about Council kicking the Quarians off-world is conflicting with something in-game? Lets hear it.

Yes. Ekuna is part of the Terminus Systems, so the quarians wouldn't need to ask the Council to begin with, any more than the batarians or vorcha would need to to colonize someplace. Ekuna is also in the Phoenix Massing, which is geth territory, so it'd be a hideously dangerous place to colonize anyway (or so the quarians would think). The Council sending a fleet both into the Terminus and into geth territory at the same time is utterly shattered against their demonstrated determination to avoid anything like another galactic war, especially since the payoff is so utterly slim. The elcor government couldn't even maintain an outpost that far away, and again, why would they even want to?

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. Ekuna is part of the Terminus Systems, so the quarians wouldn't need to ask the Council to begin with, any more than the batarians or vorcha would need to to colonize someplace.

The Quarians asked out of respect for the Council. They wanted to do it right, and the Council's racism shines in Ekuna.

Ekuna is also in the Phoenix Massing, which is geth territory, so it'd be a hideously dangerous place to colonize anyway (or so the quarians would think).

It was far enough away from the Geth, not to mention, the Geth showed no intention of leaving their primary space.

The Council sending a fleet both into the Terminus and into geth territory at the same time is utterly shattered against their demonstrated determination to avoid anything like another galactic war, especially since the payoff is so utterly slim.

Lol, no, it just shows how racist the Council is, and how hell-bent they are to punish people that "betray" them. And FYI, the Council in Ekuna is most likely different members. They could have acted differently than the ones in Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3.

The elcor government couldn't even maintain an outpost that far away, and again, why would they even want to?

Why couldn't they maintain it? The Council gave it to them for no reason at all to begin with.

[tevix]

@Xilizhra

If a planet says it does not have a breathable atmospher but the team has no masks, it's probably a minor design oversight.

There is no tactical reason to bomb archives. It is a demoralazing move, nothing more or less. If the geth had no morals they would not be asking if they had souls. That is a deeply personal issue usually attached to moral values. From a purely logical standpoint it is irrelevant.

@Ionlysignin

1) Sovereign was boasting. If I had a dollar for every big villain in RPGs that say they are eternal when we know damn well they aren't I'd be rich.

2) SAMARA only knew of the 3 ardat's she gave birth to. She never visited the monastary. It's possible she was never told. Ardat-yakshi are secret, their existance isn't published all over the extranet. At the time of ME2 there WERE only 3 KNOWN ardat-yakshi. Still canon.

Can't speak on the rest as I don't know enough offhand.

Canon is anything that is officially written by the game staff (as pertains to video games) that they do not say is no longer canon. The deception novel has been stated as currently non-canon because of its errors. Until they say so for other things, it's still canon.

What is NOT canon, is HEAD-canoning your way out of it by saying it doesn't make sense so it's not canon.

Canon

Cannon

Cannons

Head-cannons everywhere....

[Khelish]

Khelish wrote...
It doesn't matter how nonsensical it is, how badly it sounds, it is canon. The Council really did that to the Quarians, and the Quarians were forced to leave.

Go learn what canon means.

Xil, I really don't care how nonsensical you think Ekuna is, it is canon. Deal with it. 

[Xilizhra]

Lol, no, it just shows how racist the Council is, and how hell-bent they are to punish people that "betray" them. And FYI, the Council in Ekuna is most likely different members. They could have acted differently than the ones in Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3.

Excellent, you've shot down any claims on your own side of the current Council's hypocrisy, which it has not demonstrated in this manner. Perhaps this supposed past Council would have been more willing to intervene against heretic incursions. Either way, my need to continue this argument has ended.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lol, no, it just shows how racist the Council is, and how hell-bent they are to punish people that "betray" them. And FYI, the Council in Ekuna is most likely different members. They could have acted differently than the ones in Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3.

Excellent, you've shot down any claims on your own side of the current Council's hypocrisy, which it has not demonstrated in this manner. Perhaps this supposed past Council would have been more willing to intervene against heretic incursions. Either way, my need to continue this argument has ended.

To be fair, the Asari Council member was likely the same. I haven't looked into her at all, so I can't say when she was elected.

[tevix]

Did Xilizhra just pull an auto-win?

Translation: Nya nya you're wrong BAI!

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lol, no, it just shows how racist the Council is, and how hell-bent they are to punish people that "betray" them. And FYI, the Council in Ekuna is most likely different members. They could have acted differently than the ones in Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3.

Excellent, you've shot down any claims on your own side of the current Council's hypocrisy, which it has not demonstrated in this manner. Perhaps this supposed past Council would have been more willing to intervene against heretic incursions. Either way, my need to continue this argument has ended.

To be fair, the Asari Council member was likely the same. I haven't looked into her at all, so I can't say when she was elected.

She seems relatively young, all things considered. In any case, there are probably term limits that would have to satisfy both asari and salarians, so it wouldn't surprise me if asari Councilors rotate through frequently. Certainly, she doesn't seem the type to intervene like that, though she may have been outvoted.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Xil
According to the codex entry on the planet Aite (site of Project Overlord), the entire Phoenix Massing cluster (which would include Ekuna) was "briefly" considered a part of Council space during the first wave of colonization. Legion informs us it isn't anymore. It borders, but is not and never has been, part of Geth space.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 mars 2013 - 04:29 .

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

She seems relatively young, all things considered. In any case, there are probably term limits that would have to satisfy both asari and salarians, so it wouldn't surprise me if asari Councilors rotate through frequently. Certainly, she doesn't seem the type to intervene like that, though she may have been outvoted.

She actually seems a little older to me.

The Wiki doesn't say anything about when they were elected, and if she was a fair member of the Council, I wouldn't doubt if she has been in office for over 400 years.

Outvoted was most likely the case if she was there for Ekuna.

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Xil
According to the codex entry on the planet Aite (site of Project Overlord), the entire Phoenix Massing cluster (which would include Ekuna) was "briefly" considered a part of Council space durring the first wave of colonization. Legion informs us it isn't anymore.

Well, at least Overlord bothered to patch that plot hole.

[Only-Twin]

In response to a post made earlier about the quarian religious practices:

Now I'm not really familiar with any of that information, but I do know the geth made no mention of it.

Also notice how Legion (during the consensus mission) didn't show any information from the actual geth war, only before and after. Given how the war was described as "long and bloody," it seems to me that he conveniently left out some information.

That's really what I would like to know - what exactly happened during that war. 

Modifié par Only-Twin, 22 mars 2013 - 04:54 .

[Barquiel]

tevix wrote...

@Barquiel

If the quarians didn't fear council sanctions Tali wouldn't have talked about how the quarians were always trying to skirt around the law while never technically violating it.

They knew what they were doing, and they knew the consequences if their research went too far. That right there is heavy implications potential council actions provoked them to shut the geth down before the council found out.

Second, I'd be willing to put some serious money on that the council sanctions against AI violations were harshened as a result of the morning war, not humanity's sudden appearance.

Everyone (even ambassador Goyle) agreed that A.I. are dangerous, but this doesn't mean that they're always killed on sight. To quote Retribution...

“We understand there are risks inherent to the creation of synthetic life,” the asari (Councilor Tevos?) remarked. “But we do not automatically assume that we will have no other choice but to come into conflict with them.”

As it was mentioned by Goyle in the novel, the whole "harsh sanctions on the alliance" thing was merely political theatre because "everyone is scared of humanity". The council races had no interest in harsh trade sanctions because it would hurt their own economies. And if Goyle can negotiate a deal to get the Alliance off lightly, I don't see why the quarians couldn't do the same. At this time, the Quarians were probably even a more important trade partner for the council races than the alliance is now, and a lot less aggressive.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

Man, remy, you are REALLY desperate. Looking back at the last couple pages is good for a laugh.

First you say:

"Show me proof that the quarians were afraid of council law, or that the council might punish them"

Then deinon does, to which you reply

"Show me proof the council actually did anything. Until you can it's all headcanon. The quarians did it because they were afraid of the geth."

Totally dodging the argument. Here, dodge this one then.

Show us proof, actual in game undeniable proof where the quarians say "We need to kill the geth, they might rise up and kill us if we don't". You keep saying thats why the quarians started the war.

Well.

Prove it.

Or it's head canon.

@Auld Wolf
I don't appreciate being accused of being a racist. Please point out the arguments where you feel my decisions are based on race, and not actions.

Jesus Christ dude.  You missed the point.  I agree all of it is head cannon.  The statements are vague enough that what either of us says is basically taking statements and interpretating them however we see fit.  Further the Quarians don't need just one reason.   They could have done what they did both because they feared the council and they feared synethetics.

My issue with Silver is he is attempted to say to others his interpretation is fact while all other reasonable interpertations are head cannon.  No, unless it is expressly stated why they attacked it is ALL headcannon.  I don't care which you believe.

Further, I never said the Quarians didn't fear the council, I said prove it and here is why.  Silver's ultimate claim was that the Quarians would have suffered sanctions that would cause economic collapse, loss of trade, etc.  None of this is in the book because the story didn't play that way so it is by definition not canon.  What I was trying to get him to do is prove step by step his points so we can see which of his arguments are directly stated in book and which are him taking something said and then interpreting it.  That is how I debate because I have a debate background.  You need to prove which of your statements are factual and which of your statemetns are you interpreting facts.

1.  Various statements in the book say the Quarians are aware of the laws and are aware of possible consequences of creating AI.  That is fact.

2.  No where in the story does it say to my knowledge that the Quarians attack SOLELY because of the Council or SOLELY because of their fear synethetics will harm them.  From 1 above which is a fact, we can INFER that one of the above reasons is the answer or we can decide both reasons are the answer.  Either way, IT IS INFERRED.  Claiming it has to be one or the other is what makes it head cannon because you cannot prove that because we are never told exactly why.

3.  Now let's say that they did fear the Council, the next step is what would the council have actually done.  As I said the story never happened so from this point forward we are entering into various head cannon ideas.  We can INFER that they would have punished them with all the stuff Silver said or we can INFER that given they consist of 3 races (Turians, Asari and Salarians) that they may in fact have different opinions as to what to do because a) the Geth are essentially a vast harmless army right now and they potentially may react with violence if you force them to do something.  Silver is using what another species did ie the Quarians and what the Council has done in the past to much smaller AI to INFER what happens here.  Well 1), the 3 Council races are not robots and may decide differently and 2) we only saw 3 AI in the Citdel DLC so it could have been 10 others or 1,000.  We don't know because it is never stated or shown..  So trying to INFER from that example they will naturally decide to kill a force that we ultimately learn is capable of killing 1 billion is just that an INFERENCE. 

4.  Silver claims the Council will come in GUNS BLAZING on the Geth but then provides an example in which the Council actually very cautiously allow the AI to have their case be heard, and allow the AI to file an appeal of their case.  That is not GUNS BLAZING.  What the Quarians dide was GUNS BLAZING.  So he gives me an exaple that actualy disproves his claim that the Council will make a rash decision.  

5.  It is not even clear if the Council ordered the killing or of other aspects of the government just decided to just kill them before the Council could rule.   The Soldiers didn't say the Council decided to deny your appeal.  They said well the Council is going to deny it anyway so let's kill them.  If the Council had given them the order, they would have said the Council told us to kill you.  For all we know these guys feared the Council granting the appeal and so killed them to prevent said appeal from being approved.  I don't know and I don't care.

So with all that said, I don't see GUNS BLAZING in the above.  The point of my saying prove it was never to say none of what he said came from the book but to separate the facts from his intepretation and inferences he drew from the facts.

There is enough evidence to support the Council may have killed them but there is also enough evidence to support the council may have assessed the situation and decided why risk lives to killl an army when that army actually likes you right now.  I don't care which you believe but don't sit here and try and tell me your version is fact or canon and other people's version is head cannon.  That is just bullsh*t.  No knows because the story never happened in the book so we are all applying head canon.  I just admit it.

Modifié par remydat, 22 mars 2013 - 06:04 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, it's plain to see what the Council has done to the Quarians for creating an AI. The punishment is ongoing, generations and centuries later. Their embassy revoked, reduced to galactic pariahs against whom the Council summons military force when they try to settle a second-tier garden world they discovered. According to Ascension, they are eighty years away from dying in space.

Well, not only did they create a race of AIs, they then attempted genocide on them. It's not a stigma that departs easily. And I consider the Ekuna thing to be probably noncanon for several reasons.

The only people I ever hear lamenting the attempted genocide on the Geth are Shepard, and the Quarians themselves. Heck, part of the Council's reaction was to issue an extermination order for non-Geth AIs they previously sanctioned.

Ekuna is right there in ME2. No retraction was issued to declare it non-canon. It has a whole star system to itself. It's part of the Council abuse Shepard alludes to in the dialogue path I outlined in ME3. You'll have to explain why we're supposed to pretend it doesn't exist.

Yes the Council kills AI it can without great loss of life.  That proves nothing regarding Silver's claims that in this story that never happened ie the Quarians telling the councill that the council would have wiped out the Geth because the Geth have greater numbers than any previous encounters.

Further, Silver was so generous to provide me with the Citdeal youtube that expresses shows the council allowing a petition of AI to be heard, allowing them to appeal their decision and then some goons CLAIM they Council was going to deny the appeal anyway and kill them.  It is thus then unclear whether those goons are working for the Council or if they merely say that as a justification to kill them when their real fear is that the council will actually grant the appeal.

So once again this sh*t is all head cannon.  You can believe what you want but stop trying to tell other people your head canon is canon (I am referring to Silver not you). 

People seem confused between facts and their interpretations of those facts.  We are never told the primary reason they kill the Geth.  Several potential reasons are given and one of them could have been the main reason or all of them could have been the reason.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Xilizhra

The council is full of bass-ackward, hypocritical, self-contradicting actions since ME1.

How is that out of character or "nonsensical" for them?

Which is precisely why claiming you know what they would have done is bullsh*t.  They are not rigid with a set code.  They will make completely contradictory decisions based on circumstances.  So how the f**k are we suppose to claim it is cannon that if the Quarians had told them about the Geth, they would have tried to wipe them out and sent the Quarians into the Dark Ages.  We don't precisely because organic nature is full of contradictions.  These guys hate AI so much that after they killed a billion people, they allegedly sent ships and said, will you be my friend.

[remydat]

Xilizhra wrote...

You misunderstand. What they didn't understand was that not every quarian was a threat. Also, if the quarians defended the archives, the geth could come to the conclusion that they were somehow important even if they didn't really understand why.

Exactly.  People act like just because they are machines they have perfect knowledge.  They literally were in the process of being born as it is unclear exactly when they were alive.  In the process of being born their creators try and slaughter them.  To pretend that has no impact on still evolving consciousness is silly.

The Quarians introduced violence into prorgramming that is growing exponentially and then are shocked when the Geth respond to a threat by eliminating every f**king thing that is not a Geth that they get their hands on. 

The Quarians by introduction violence into their evolving program are directly responsible for their own 1 billion dead. That is what makes it so tragic.

And for the record that is my interpretation.  None of this is expressly stated so it is not canon.  But neither is anyone else opinion unless Bioware writes it in the story.